PDA

View Full Version : Daily Dev S- Boat question clarification



aanker
01-22-2007, 05:43 PM
I posted this question just prior to the crash so I will try again:


Q: P38Ace: I read the article and said the P class, Tambor and Gato are included, but I wonder if the S class and Narwhal class will included as they were in SH1
A: The Narwhal won't be included in the release version of the game as it doesn't fit - historically speaking - with the type of gameplay that we have prepared.

The S-class however... is in.


Are you referring to the true 1917 era S-Boat's (I hope) or the Salmon/Sargo class boats?

Thanks!

klcarroll
01-22-2007, 05:55 PM
Wow! ....I hope that's not true!

The Narwhal class boats were very active in special ops; ....and it would be a real shame to not be able to play some of that out!

stabiz
01-22-2007, 06:10 PM
It is true, its from the devs.

TheRealPotoroo
01-22-2007, 06:50 PM
I've recreated the Collecting Questions to ask SH4 developers! (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/2551068625) thread. You're probably better off asking there.

klcarroll
01-22-2007, 08:12 PM
It is true, its from the devs.
Well if that's the case, then I will definately rethink my decision to buy SHIV.

If the developers are going to ignore historically significant classes of boats, then they are failing to provide a good simulation.

I can buy arcade style "shoot-em-ups" anywhere.

stabiz
01-23-2007, 03:28 AM
Maybe, maybe.

On the other hand, several boats are missing from SH3 too. I wouldnt call that an arcade shoot em up.

klcarroll
01-23-2007, 06:59 AM
On the other hand, several boats are missing from SH3 too. I wouldnt call that an arcade shoot em up.
That's certainly true, but the boats missing from SH3 don't represent entire historically significant classes.

The U.S. navy, like the Germany navy, entered WWII with what amounted to a peacetime compliment of submarines, and The Narwhal and her sister ships accounted for a significant percentage of that number.

.....And the U.S. navy was operating with the additional disadvantage of having recently lost a large percentage of it's surface fleet: .....the result being that for the first few months of the war, the submarines WERE the U.S. Navy!

It should also be noted that for the U.S., the first 18 months was a war of loss and retreat. It was in this environment that the true value of the big old "V-boats" became obvious. If you read the cruise summaries of these boats, you find success after success in re-supply (in one instance 45 TONS of supplies and ammo), rescue, evacuation, the landing of raiding parties, and yes, shore bombardment with those big 155mm deck guns.

In real history, the Narwhal Class boats were far from "Historically Insignificant". If the Devs are going to exclude "Historically Insignificant" classes, then they should have excluded the TypeXXI from SH3, since the XXIs never actually inflicted a loss on the enemy! (Honestly now, ....how many of you WOULDN'T scream like scalded cats if they took the Type XXIs away???)

There are also valid "simulation" reasons for including the V-boats: ....Their design was an "Americanization" of the German "U-cruiser" concept that emerged in late WWI; ....Big boats, with very long range, and very heavy surface armaments, which were intended to enhance the boat's ability as a "long cruise" commerce raider. (Hence the V-boat's 371 foot lenght and two 155mm guns.)

This design philosophy never really got a chance in combat, as WWI ended to soon for that; ....But in the vast Western Pacific, with Japan utterly dependent on it's shipping network for survival, the conditions favorable to the "U-cruiser" concept were re-created: ....Am I alone in thinking that those would be fascinating mission scenarios to play out?

Minoos
01-23-2007, 07:31 AM
how many of you WOULDN'T scream like scalded cats if they took the Type XXIs away???
Although I enjoy the type XXI, it would have been more appropriate to have the type XXIII instead. That would have been closer to operational records ( 6 type XXIII patrols vs 2 type XXI patrols ).
Any moder created type XXIII yet? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

To return to the SH4 topic, better let the devs limit the available subs but enhance the simulation model/context for each...

klcarroll
01-23-2007, 08:31 AM
Perhaps; ......But the fact remains that the omission of the Narwhal class boats is a serious historical distortion.

aanker
01-23-2007, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by TheRealPotoroo:
I've recreated the Collecting Questions to ask SH4 developers! (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/2551068625) thread. You're probably better off asking there.
Thanks. Sorry about that.

Also thank you ALL for reconstructing that forum topic... (lot's of work ;-)

TheFastFreddie
01-23-2007, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by klcarroll:
Perhaps; ......But the fact remains that the omission of the Narwhal class boats is a serious historical distortion.

There was only 2 boats ever made under this class and I'm pretty sure that the Devs didn't think a game about sinking very few ships and dropping off men/supplies would appeal to the masses. It might be a nice change of pace but I certainly won't cry about not having it in there. Sorta like Milk Cows in SHIII. Would be nice to have them in there but is that something you'd like to spend the war doing.

klcarroll
01-23-2007, 08:36 PM
There was only 2 boats ever made under this class
Sorry, but your information is not accurate: ....There were nine "V-Boats" built: The Barracuda, Bass, Bonita, Argonaut, Narwhal, Nautilus, Dolphin, Cachalot, and Cuttlefish. All nine served in WWII.

The U.S. had 111 submarines in commision on Dec. 7th, 1941: ....I have to point out that 9 out of 110 IS NOT a "Historically Insignificant" percentage.

tuddley3
01-23-2007, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by klcarroll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is true, its from the devs.
Well if that's the case, then I will definately rethink my decision to buy SHIV.

If the developers are going to ignore historically significant classes of boats, then they are failing to provide a good simulation.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe modders will have more freedom to add more boats such as these. of course they would probably have to be AI boats

TheFastFreddie
01-23-2007, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by klcarroll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There was only 2 boats ever made under this class
Sorry, but your information is not accurate: ....There were nine "V-Boats" built: The Barracuda, Bass, Bonita, Argonaut, Narwhal, Nautilus, Dolphin, Cachalot, and Cuttlefish. All nine served in WWII.

The U.S. had 111 submarines in commision on Dec. 7th, 1941: ....I have to point out that 9 out of 110 IS NOT a "Historically Insignificant" percentage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Link (http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/sublist.html)

Most of the boats that you listed are different from each other in size, range, and almost all of them failed to sink one ship. They were little more than cargo/transport subs. Developers are problably looking for the subs most significate to the entire war not what was in the inventory on 12/7/41.

klcarroll
01-24-2007, 06:36 AM
Most of the boats that you listed are different from each other in size, range, and almost all of them failed to sink one ship. They were little more than cargo/transport subs. Developers are probably looking for the subs most significant to the entire war not what was in the inventory on 12/7/41.

Sure...., there were boat-to-boat differences; ...Just as there are differences between the TypeVII variants.

But more to the point,......, can I assume that by using your own criteria, you would be in favor of deleting the TypeXXI from SH3?? ....After all, they only appeared in the last months of the War, ....and "they failed to sink one ship".

The argument that the American submarine inventory on 07 Dec. 1941 isn't relevant to the "Big Picture" just doesn't wash! That would be like saying that the type and quantity of boats available to Germany in 1939 didn't have an impact on the War.

I argue in favor of including the Narwhal Class because the whole "U-cruiser" concept never really got a proper trial in either war: ....and I think we're missing a great simulation opportunity here.

The vast size of the Western Pacific, the absolute Japanese dependence on their shipping for their survival, and the widespread distribution of the generally smaller merchant vessels recreated the environment the "U-cruiser Concept" was born to deal with. Just because U.S. doctrine at the time didn't implement those tactics is no reason for us not to simulate other style missions.

....And remember, in real life, original doctrine isn't always the final word: .....The Gatos and their predecessors were called "Fleet Boats" because planners envisioned them as advance scouts and protectors for a surface fleet: ....And that idea went by the wayside quickly enough!

klcarroll
01-24-2007, 07:29 AM
The following was originally posted by Neon Deon on SubSim. I generally don't cite other posts word for word, ....but Neon Deon's commnts were so much to the point that I felt they needed inclusion here;

QUOTE:

The Big boats Argonaut, Narwhal, and Nautilus were awarded 32 out of 39 battle stars given to the V class during WW II. These boats also carried the biggest guns aboard a U S Navy submarine. Two 6 inch 53 caliber cannons(you can still see the Nautilus' guns on display at the Naval Submarine Base New London, in Groton, Connecticut).

The Nautilus and Narwhal could carry 100 marines and 100 tons of cargo and were used extensively throughout the war for special ops missions: They destroyed an oil depot by gun fire; shelled an enemy airfield diverting attention away from a U S mini-wolf pack thus enabling it to exit the sea of Japan; invaded an enemy held island while destroying it's garrison by naval gunfire; Raided Maikin island with Marines and supported raid with gun fire while sinking 2 ships in the lagoon again by gun fire; landed scouts in the Aleutians; inserted coast watchers; evacuated VIPs, civilians and POWs; recon missions; life guard duty; re-supplied Philippine rebels; as well as destroying enemy shipping.

So I ask this question again:

What type of gameplay do the devolpers have in mind that would exclude these boats?

PS.
Counting all U.S. WW II subs:

Narwhal is tied for second in warpatrols at 15 and Nautilus with 14 war patrols is tied for third.

The Argonaut and Narwhal classes are the only class subs in WWII to earn a battle star for every patrol they went out on.

END QUOTE:

SMS_Seydlitz
03-09-2007, 11:44 AM
klcarrol's comments got me interested in this subject, so I did some research and I have to agree with him. The V-boats do deserve inclusion in this game if possible. There were 5 of them sitting at Pearl Harbor when the Japs attacked and they were reasonably active during the war. They certainly were more historically important than the XXI boats (much to Churchill's relief) as those boats had absolutely no impact on the war. Their additional abilities would, in my opinion, add some very interesting wrinkles to a Pacific submarine war simulation.

As far as classes of ships, individual ships frequently varied significantly in details, but were still considered as part of the same overall class.

Seydlitz

nastutt
03-09-2007, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by klcarroll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is true, its from the devs.
Well if that's the case, then I will definately rethink my decision to buy SHIV.

If the developers are going to ignore historically significant classes of boats, then they are failing to provide a good simulation.

I can buy arcade style "shoot-em-ups" anywhere. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get a grip! They cant possibly include all insundry just because one or two people like that type of submarine. JUst be glad youve got a deveoper doing sub sims at all, theres not a lot of sim developers around these days in case you hadnt noticed and comments like this are part of the reason.

klcarroll
03-09-2007, 02:23 PM
Get a grip!

I have a "grip"!!

If you are going to market a game as an Historical Simulation, then you are not allowed to alter history to meet your production schedule.

If you need to modify history to make your game work, then don't call it a simulation!

I'm not going to recount everything that has been said about the Narwhal Class boats here: ....if you do a search on the subject, you will probably come up with a day's reading.

If after digesting all that, you still hold your opinion; .....well then, we'll just have to "agree to disagree".

*

klcarroll
03-09-2007, 02:45 PM
But there is one question that you really have to address:

If It's OK to delete U.S. boats that had distinguished war careers as "historically insignificant", then how can you justify the inclusion of the TypeXXI boats in SH3??? .......Boats which never sank even one ton of Allied shipping???

You don't have to reply: ......I know what the answer is: ....it's all about "gameplay", not accuracy!

It still sounds just a bit hypocritical to me.

*

GhostRiderfr1
03-09-2007, 05:34 PM
If you are going to market a game as an Historical Simulation, then you are not allowed to alter history to meet your production schedule.

If you need to modify history to make your game work, then don't call it a simulation!


Where has history been screwed in the fact that these boats aren't included in the game.

That would certainly have been a plus, but this is not something that will make me avoid to buy the game...

WilhelmSchulz.
03-09-2007, 05:37 PM
Yippi!

klcarroll
03-09-2007, 11:31 PM
Where has history been screwed in the fact that these boats aren't included in the game.

Well, .....as I pointed out earlier, all of this has been covered before; ....but I'll hit the high points again.

On Dec. 7th 1941, the "V Class" boats constituted something like 9% of the U.S. Submarines in Commission. This is not an insignificant number.

The largest boats in this class were the Narwhal, Nautilus, and the Argonaut. All three were active in the hostilities right from day one. The Narwhal was present during the Pearl Harbor attach, and given partial credit for two Japanese aircraft shot down.

Both the Narwhal and the Nautilus survived the war, completing 15 and 14 war patrols respectively. The Narwhal was awarded a Battle Star for each of her 15 missions.

******

When you look at the amount of effort the Devs devoted to including the TypeXXI in SH3 (boats which never sunk so much as a case of beer!), How can you justify omitting boats with distinguished service records from SH4????

*

NeoDeo1955
03-10-2007, 02:14 AM
I was quite upset when I saw the devop film showing Marines on deck and then reading the bit about how the Narwhal class boats did not fit in with the gameplay they had in mind.

LOL! That was too darned funny.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

GoldenEagle8
03-17-2007, 03:33 AM
Hey is this the S-Boat you're talking about?

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n126/GoldenEagle8/S-Boat.gif