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View Full Version : OT Challenger 2 gets a new gun



Celeon999
08-26-2007, 08:07 AM
Propably old news for some people as i couldnt find out when the final decision was made.

But i believe it was made at some point this year, so :

The Challenger 2 Lethality Improvement Programme (CLIP) has finally made a choice for the future armament of the Challenger 2 MBT.

The Rheinmetall L-55 smoothbore gun of the Leopard 2 A6 was chosen. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

This is the prototype. Some will now say : What ? Does look like the old one !

Yes it does, but it isnt. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7430/chally2120l55svg01or9.jpg

The clamp, thermal sleeve,fume extractor and muzzle reference system of the old rifled L30A1 gun were retained. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

Firing tests made with this prototype have shown that the DM53 APFSDS tungsten-carbid projectiles fired from this gun have superior penetration power to the L30's depleted uranium rounds.

Exact details and results are of course , as always, classified. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The gun will be produced under license in the UK.


This is a early model of what the Challenger 2 was initially believed to look like with the new gun. In fact it will keep its old look now.
http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/1493/lautabattlefieldevochalzr0.jpg

andy3536
08-26-2007, 09:12 AM
Nice find http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
You must know someone that knows someone that knows someone to find that out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mabee someone can tell me how can a smoothbore gun be better than a rifled gun?

Also, why on earth would a gun that 'can destroy any known armour on the planet' need to be upgraded?

Is it about first round hit ratio more than penetration you think?

Celeon999
08-26-2007, 09:42 AM
Well rifled guns have a bigger range. The L30A1 had something around 9000 meters while a smoothbore gun has usually between 4500 and 5000.

Nonetheless its the kind of round and its impact speed which matters.

Its hard for me to describe it in english but i will try. Im sure someone here can help and find better words than mine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Remember what rifled means : The round has to pass through a barrel which is shaped to make it rotate. This rotation is what makes the round fly straight. It spins around its own lateral axis. Exactly like rounds in pistols , rifles, assault rifles and so on.

But this also means that the round has to overcome a certain resistance as it rubs with the rifled bore. This means a huge loss of speed.

A Smoothbore gun projectile does not rotate. It stabilizes its flight with fins. Just like a dart or a arrow does.

Actually it is nothing else than a dart. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

A very hard and fast dart http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The resistance is much lower thats why the round leaves the gun at a much higher speed. This is the so called "muzzle velocity"


Pics to follow

AbleMaster
08-26-2007, 09:43 AM
The challenger probably the best MBT on the planet, smoothebore will give more speed and therefore power to a hit, like it needed more.Must be costing a fortune.

Celeon999
08-26-2007, 10:13 AM
This is a 120mm APFSDS Charm 3 projectile of the L30A1 rifled gun. This round rotates. (The hull gets blown away from the spike once the round leaves the muzzle)

http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw010108_4_p3.jpg

These are APFSDS Sabot projectiles of the DM series.

The hull of the rounds gets blown away as soon as the spike leaves the muzzle. See the fins ? They stabilize its flight, preventing that it tumbles or leaves its course. Just like a dart.

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/9536/120mm06grxl9.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Sabot_separating.gif

As the Charm 3 flies too slow (in comparison to other projectiles) it has great problems to penetrate reactive armours.

A reactive armour is nothing else than blocks of explosive charges attached to the hull of a tank.

Like this T-72 here :

See those blocks ? These are explosives.
http://www.tribulation.com/images/Russiant.jpg

The explosion of reactive armour charges divert the penetrator spike from its flight course (this happens within milliseconds), reducing the likeliness that the spike penetrates the kinetic armour behind it. The impact angle (90 degrees would be perfect) is altered by the explosion.

But there is a solution : Make the spike faster than the explosion !

Sounds crazy but it is possible. Imagine the spike piercing through the block of explosives faster than the explosives can ignite.

It will hit the armour behind it before the explosion can divert its course.

Of course the spike will never be fast enough to evade the explosion completely but still fast enough to evade most of its energy.

Enhancing the likeliness of the spike hitting in a suitable angle again.

andy3536
08-26-2007, 10:21 AM
Thanks celeon,
But your seriously telling me the round that's faster has half the range?
Thats hard to get your head around, isn't it against the laws of phisics?

Celeon999
08-26-2007, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by andy3536:
Thanks celeon,
But your seriously telling me the round that's faster has half the range?
Thats hard to get your head around, isn't it against the laws of phisics?


A rifled gun can fire HEAT rounds in a high ballistical curve. The round gets stabilized by its rotation.

A smoothbore gun can fire its rounds only in much flater curves because of those fins on the rounds.

A simple example :


Imagine what you could throw farer : A tennisball or a dart of similar weight ?

How would you throw the tennisball to get it as far away as possible ? Straight forward ?

No. You would throw it in a certain angle upwards right ? It wouldnt go far if you throw directly forwards.

What would happen with the dart if thrown in the same angle ? Would it go as far away as the ball ?

No. It would tumble after a few meters and fall down like a stone.

And what would happen when you throw it straight forward ? It wouldnt tumble, but it still wouldnt get far.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

WilhelmSchulz.
08-26-2007, 11:04 AM
I knew it! If the German Lepord wasent the best then why would the British be using its gun?

bf2player2006
08-26-2007, 11:09 AM
The american M1A2 Abrams uses a similar gun fitted in one of em leopards... rheinmetall sort of bs..

Celeon999
08-26-2007, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by WilhelmSchulz.:
I knew it! If the German Lepord wasent the best then why would the British be using its gun?


Oh they could easily develop a own one but its faster and much cheaper to buy a gun which already exists http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

That was also the USA's motivation http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Celeon999
08-26-2007, 11:30 AM
Here is a wikipedia article for Kinetic Energy Penetrators.


It utilizes much better english and physics knowledge than Celeon is able to offer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_penetrator)

andy3536
08-26-2007, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andy3536:
Thanks celeon,
But your seriously telling me the round that's faster has half the range?
Thats hard to get your head around, isn't it against the laws of phisics?


A rifled gun can fire HEAT rounds in a high ballistical curve. The round gets stabilized by its rotation.

A smoothbore gun can fire its rounds only in much flater curves because of those fins on the rounds.

A simple example :


Imagine what you could throw farer : A tennisball or a dart of similar weight ?

How would you throw the tennisball to get it as far away as possible ? Straight forward ?

No. You would throw it in a certain angle upwards right ? It wouldnt go far if you throw directly forwards.

What would happen with the dart if thrown in the same angle ? Would it go as far away as the ball ?

No. It would tumble after a few meters and fall down like a stone.

And what would happen when you throw it straight forward ? It wouldnt tumble, but it still wouldnt get far.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

klcarroll
08-26-2007, 03:02 PM
But your seriously telling me the round that's faster has half the range?
Thats hard to get your head around, isn't it against the laws of phisics?


Typically, when the military talks about "range" these days, ....they're talking about "Effective Range". Effective range is a "combination value" that takes into account both accuracy and terminal ballistics.

A projectile from a rifled weapon may have superior long range accuracy, but if the lethality of the round is too low at that range, ...well, ....then, .....who cares???

While high velocity tungsten penetrators are currently very popular; .....There are other considerations to be looked at in the "Smoothbore vs. Rifled" debate, aside from simple muzzle velocity.

1) Rounds that utilize "shaped charge explosive" architecture perform much more efficiently when they're NOT rotating. (Think about it: ...your average rotation-stabilized round is spinning at rate that is in excess of 100,000 rpm! ...That tends to "disrupt" the gas jet propagation that they rely on for armor penetration.)

2) A smoothbore weapon leaves the door open for the use of many of the rocket assisted projectiles that are still very popular.


klcarroll

ArtieEngineer
08-26-2007, 05:17 PM
AHEM sorry but Celeon you have very much of this wrong. (Not meant to belittle you in any way as you are much respected here SIR.)

One a dart can be thrown at the same angle as the tennis ball and it will fly farther than any ball due to drag. Good example as my son just pointd out is the nerf football that was made some years ago that looked like a dart complete with fins that travled as far or farther than the normal footbal with very little effort.

Two the drag from the rifling is going to slow the projectile much much less than your statement would lead one to believe. The difference will be small depending on particular projectile of course but not near what you are saying. I could test this on a much smaller scale but I don't as yet have a smoothbore barrel for my flintlock. Velocity is much more effected by speed of the powder used to propel it but more velocity accelerates the wear so rifled guns are much more limited this way. Which may be how you were lead to be wrong as velocities from a smoothbore could easily outstrip the velocities from a rifled bore of the same size.

Three that reactive armor was designed to defeat a much different projectile. The long rod penetrator type is more than capable when fired from rifled or smooth alike as it is traveling at such speed the explosion has nill effect. Nor is it designed as such, that armor is designed to defeat HEAT type rounds. Shaped charge style HEAT rounds and the like, not the long rod penetrator type. In fact the long rod penetraor type was developed to defeat that armor and most tanks use a much different armor today. I believe they are using a laminated type today.

Four darts and arrows are in fact stabilized by the SPIN imparted on them by the fletching or fins. Thought there are also other factors, for example the drag is highest at the rear fin area. ( this might be misleading because fin stabilization doesn't have to also mean a spin, however that would effect range and accuracy adversely)

A smoothbore gun is used because mainly it is much cheaper to maintain and has to be replaced much much less often. That drag you mentioned that slows down a projectile from a rifled gun wears that rifling out and the barrels have to be replaced. But also because it is much more versitile. Smoothbores can fire many more types of projectiles effectively. In fact I believe anything that can be fired from a rifled gun can be fired from smooth as well as shotgun type projectiles which can't be fired from rifled guns effectively. THat said those round that are designed for rifled guns will be less effective from a smoothbore mainly because of the lack of stabilization. (these type rounds can fairly easily be redesigned to function from smoothbores by fin stabilization and the like while rounds such as flechette and shotgun type to my knowledge can't be redesigned to function very well from a rifled gun) (brings to mind an adaptor that was made for a popular rifled gun to fire a shotgun round which had to be there for the shotgun round but removed for normal rounds, not something one would want to do in a tank during a war)

klcarroll
08-26-2007, 06:00 PM
A smoothbore gun is used because mainly it is much cheaper to maintain and has to be replaced much much less often.

This is a vast oversimplification. NONE of the major powers are going to consider basic cost over effectiveness when deciding on the primary weapon for their Main Battle Tanks.

The cost of replacement tubes is simple pocket change when compared to the cost of a lost vehicle, or a lost engagement.

The smoothbore guns are used because they provide for the widest range of projectiles, with the highest lethality, for a given bore size.

klcarroll

ArtieEngineer
08-26-2007, 06:33 PM
Right. I said it slightly wrong but if you read the post this was also there.

AND it isn't cost over effectiveness as a rifled gun is pretty much just as effective. The long rod penetrator round is pretty much just as effective from a rifled gun as it is from a smoothbore, only thing is the sabot is slightly different and the velocity is lower because of the limitations I mentioned before, which only lowers the effectiveness some.

ArtieEngineer
08-26-2007, 06:43 PM
OK the velocity may in fact be the same, as a matter of fact, meaning the round would be just as effective from the rifled gun meaning the only consideration here would be the cost of maintenance. I don't think it is as much an oversimplification as you think. BUT then I don't have all the particulars. In any event I only point out that the original poster had many things wrong.

If you look at the stats offered for a 120 smoothbore gun over a 120 rifled gun you may indeed find that the velocities are vastly superior for the smoothbore, however this is due to other factors and not only the rifleing. Fire the same round from each gun and I am willing to bet the difference is not great.

Liddabit
08-26-2007, 10:33 PM
Its good to see the good guys still upgrading their arsenals. It kinda worried me to see so many of our equiptment was designed to fight the soviet union and we have much different foes now.

ArtieEngineer
08-26-2007, 11:33 PM
Understood lidda trouble is these things are for the better armed
armored foes when in Iraq we would more likely be better of with w few CEV's (M60 tank with dozer blade and winch with A frame and short barrel gun)

Celeon999
08-27-2007, 02:22 AM
Three that reactive armor was designed to defeat a much different projectile. The long rod penetrator type is more than capable when fired from rifled or smooth alike as it is traveling at such speed the explosion has nill effect.

You are surely thinking of the basic reactive armour theories developed in 1949. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Modern reactive armour concepts are more than just explosives meant to divert streams of plasma coming from shaped charge detonations.

They have been improved and incorporate layers of ceramic and metal which are meant to be propelled against KE penetrator darts to divert their impact angle and lessen their velocity.

For instance the Kontakt-5 armour was designed to do exactly this as the Kontakt-4 had already sufficient capacity to give protection against shaped charges.


The manufacturer claims that it can slow down the velocity of a incoming KE rod up to 38 %

Theoreticly it is even able to break a penetrator rod apart. (Depends on the incoming angle)

This is the reason why muzzle velocity is enhighed in guns and new propulsion methods are researched.

Of course there are Tandem-charges (in shaped charge technology) to counter reactive armour concepts but thats a topic for itself.

The muzzle velocity of rifled guns is more limited than you might think.

Actually its more a question of enhancing the propulsion method of smoothbore rounds while this is not possible with rifled guns at all.

Better said it is possible but does not make sense to do so.

There is a point in which the barrel of a rifled gun has to be made thicker (and with that automatically heavier) when enhancing muzzle velocity just because the energy transfered from the round onto the barrel (through rub) gets too high and threatens to make it glow and transform just after one shot.

Thats why all modern 3rd generation tank manufacturers have left the rifled gun area about 30 years ago.

They are and do thinking in speed concepts which exceed the physic restrictions of a rifled gun which has to be light enough to be mounted on a tank.

ArtieEngineer
08-27-2007, 04:07 AM
I had a large post typed up but thinking better of it.

I still contend that the difference in speed of the projectile is not due solely to the drag of the rifling. More a function of the life of that rifling. That any given round fired from a smoothbore gun and a rifled gun will have very little difference in velocity. And that modern tanks use smoothbore guns mainly due to versatility and life of the gun NOT soley due to the increased velocities possible in a smoothbore.

After that we will have to agree to disagree.

Just on a side note my son did a very nice indepth report on the RPG and it's capabilities for his ROTC class some time back. He found stuff his officers didn't know. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

After doing my time as a combat engineer I wish I had done something different now. I really enjoyed watching the mobile arty work. Anyone know where I can obtain a circa 1980ish CEV????

Celeon999
08-27-2007, 05:22 AM
Ok lets leave it at that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

My field of profession was to neutralize armoured vehicles rather than designing them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

klcarroll
08-27-2007, 07:34 AM
The Reality is that the "Rifled/Smoothbore" choice is a typical engineering problem: ....Meaning that there are a plethora of compromises to be considered; and that the ultimate choice will be determined by examining which side of the question has, after analysis, amassed the most positive points.

The conclusion that most of the Worlds weapons designers have come to is that the Smoothbore Architecture offers more "Projectile Type" flexibility in a lighter, more durable weapon, while at the same time providing a level of "Real World Accuracy" that is more than adequate for "The Job": .....And as Celeon pointed out, the Smoothbore Architecture is able to produce the "Hyper" velocities required today with far fewer mechanical and thermodynamic problems.

Having had some experience in weapon design, .....it seems like a pretty clear choice to me.

klcarroll

Celeon999
08-27-2007, 11:18 AM
Ok its off-topic now but ive found a interesting video of the cancelled S-Tank prototype from Sweden.

It was the only modern usage of the turretless construction method i know of. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Of course there is as always a exception as i know of a german prototype for a comparable tank which unlike the S-Tank never entered production. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'll search the photos


Stridsvagn 103 Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fARGfVA7Mm8&mode=related&search=)

The idea was obviously to make it as cheap as possible just like its counterparts from ww2 (Stug, Jagdpanther)

Very interesting for tank fans http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

klcarroll
08-27-2007, 01:10 PM
Well, .....since I can't have a TypeIID; ......I'll accept this as a close second next Christmas!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY_5c0mBXok&mode=related&search=


klcarroll

Celeon999
08-27-2007, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by klcarroll:
Well, .....since I can't have a TypeIID; ......I'll accept this as a close second next Christmas!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY_5c0mBXok&mode=related&search=


klcarroll

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif What a sound


Now...what about his Big Brother ?

Tiger II (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sqjTkrFM48&mode=related&search=)

klcarroll
08-27-2007, 01:31 PM
Where did that video come from???

I had been under the impression that there were no Tiger IIs in running condition.

It would make me really happy to know that one had been preserved!

klcarroll

Celeon999
08-27-2007, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by klcarroll:
Where did that video come from???

I had been under the impression that there were no Tiger IIs in running condition.

It would make me really happy to know that one had been preserved!

klcarroll


France. Look at the building on the right side. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

klcarroll
08-27-2007, 01:40 PM
Oh! ....Yeah! .....I was busy looking at the Tank!

Do you know who owns it???

Do they need contributions to maintain it??

Stuff like this MUST be preserved!!

klcarroll

klcarroll
08-27-2007, 01:41 PM
....and YES! ....I'd accept that one at Christmas too!

klcarroll

Celeon999
08-27-2007, 01:44 PM
Do you know who owns it???

I'll try to find out http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ArtieEngineer
08-27-2007, 02:04 PM
LOL!!!

I totaally agree they must be preserved. They could just donate it to me and I'd do very nicely keeping it up as my yard decoration.

I wouldn't call the S tank a tank myself... I myself think a Tank has a proper turret.

andy3536
08-27-2007, 02:21 PM
There is a tiger 2 at bovington tank museum.
It's a prototype with a different porsche designed turret.
They also had a the tank destroyer version (although this was in peices when i was there last)

*edit* Well what do you know, they have 2 king tigers at bovington to go with tiger 1.

http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/news/pr_bovington_king_280506.html

Celeon999
08-28-2007, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by andy3536:
There is a tiger 2 at bovington tank museum.
It's a prototype with a different porsche designed turret.
They also had a the tank destroyer version (although this was in peices when i was there last)

*edit* Well what do you know, they have 2 king tigers at bovington to go with tiger 1.

http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/news/pr_bovington_king_280506.html


The Tiger-2 with the Porsche Turret is not exactly a prototype. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

It was born out of a misunderstanding between the wehrmacht and the companies Porsche and Henschel.

Both applied for the contract of building the turret for the Kingtiger and for some reasons Porsche was confident that they would be chosen.

So they prematurely produced 50 turrets as the wehrmacht announced that they would give the contract to Henschel.

Luckily Porsche could convince the wehrmacht to buy the already produced 50 turrets anyway.

As both versions hit the frontline, they caused some confusement among the allies as they first thought that these are two completely different type of tanks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


@ Klcarroll

The Tiger is owned by the museum Musee des Blindes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%C3%A9e_des_Blind%C3%A9s) in Saumur at the Loire.

Its the only operable one in the world.



I love the sound of that Maybach V-12 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif


Today Maybach builds hyper expensive luxury automobiles for the rich and famous http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif (Juts like they did before the war)

Maybach Excelero (Just costs over one million euros) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Excelero.jpg/800px-Excelero.jpg

http://img.stern.de/_content/55/65/556512/maybach_01_500.jpg

klcarroll
08-28-2007, 06:08 AM
Celeon;

Thanks for the info on Musee des Blindes! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I'll have to see if I can get on their mailing list; .....as I would certainly be willing to donate my spare pocket change to help maintain that beast!

klcarroll

Celeon999
08-28-2007, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by klcarroll:
Celeon;

Thanks for the info on Musee des Blindes! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I'll have to see if I can get on their mailing list; .....as I would certainly be willing to donate my spare pocket change to help maintain that beast!

klcarroll


Hmmm....you want to donate money to a FRENCH institution from your CURRENT LOCATION ?

I can see a little red warning sign blink in a secret department within the Ministry of Homeland Security. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"Sir,....we got another one of THEM" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

"What ? Yet another France symphatizer" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

"It seems that he wants to transfer money to a french bank account in connection to the restoration of german Tiger tank from ww2, sir" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

"AHA ! Nazi contacts too ! " http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

"I bet he searches for a house in Vichy too " http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

"Send out a patriotism spec forces unit to his location" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

andy3536
08-28-2007, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Celeon999:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by andy3536:
There is a tiger 2 at bovington tank museum.
It's a prototype with a different porsche designed turret.
They also had a the tank destroyer version (although this was in peices when i was there last)

*edit* Well what do you know, they have 2 king tigers at bovington to go with tiger 1.

http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/news/pr_bovington_king_280506.html


The Tiger-2 with the Porsche Turret is not exactly a prototype. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

It was born out of a misunderstanding between the wehrmacht and the companies Porsche and Henschel.

Both applied for the contract of building the turret for the Kingtiger and for some reasons Porsche was confident that they would be chosen.

So they prematurely produced 50 turrets as the wehrmacht announced that they would give the contract to Henschel.

Luckily Porsche could convince the wehrmacht to buy the already produced 50 turrets anyway.

As both versions hit the frontline, they caused some confusement among the allies as they first thought that these are two completely different type of tanks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


@ Klcarroll

The Tiger is owned by the museum Musee des Blindes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%C3%A9e_des_Blind%C3%A9s) in Saumur at the Loire.

Its the only operable one in the world.



I love the sound of that Maybach V-12 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif


Today Maybach builds hyper expensive luxury automobiles for the rich and famous http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif (Juts like they did before the war)

Maybach Excelero (Just costs over one million euros) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif


Nice info http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif crappy car http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

I think the museum at bovington is trying to get the tiger 2 working.
They also have the only working tiger in the world.
It's quite a sight, many shell marks accross the tank.
Well worth a look, captured in tunisia 43.

klcarroll
08-28-2007, 07:35 PM
Celeon;

So I get a few more "Black Marks" on my record: ......Oh well!

I don't see any alternative, ....it's an important relic, and must be looked after: ....Unless, of course, you want to help me steal it! (....Then I'll let you drive it on weekends! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif )

Klcarroll

Celeon999
08-29-2007, 12:21 AM
I don't see any alternative, ....it's an important relic, and must be looked after: ....Unless, of course, you want to help me steal it! (....Then I'll let you drive it on weekends! Clap Party Hat )


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We'll discuss this further in pm mode http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif