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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:58 PM
Hi guys! I just found very interesting research. It is very fundamental that's why I picked only small part of it for translation, mostly conclusions. Hope you will enjoy the reading.


Luftwaffe pilot's performance was measured with victories but not with the kills, like in RAF of VVS. Here the question rises why germans substituted conception of "kill" with the conception of "victory".

The main force of aviation was bombers. Actually fighters did exist only to support the bombers. By the way bomber pilots need to have much more courage in the combat than fighter pilots. During WWII stormer pilot in average survived 11 sorties, bomber pilot - 48 sorties and fighter pilot - about 70 sorties. Taking off to support stormer IL-2 fighter pilot had six times more chances to return on the base than stormer pilot, which he had to support.

In Soviet Union fighter pilots had all the fame. There are three times Heroes of Soviet Union only among the fighter pilots. This was all the way around in Luftwaffe. Most famous pilot of Luftwaffe - Hans Rudel was Ju-87 dive bomber pilot. He is the only person who got all honors of the Reich and all medals were made of gold specially and only for him.

Germans understood that main mission of the fighters is not the elimination of the enemy aircrafts, but to let friendly bombers hit their targets and do not let enemy bombers to hit theirs. If the fighter shot down enemy bomber on the approach to his target, he accomplished his mission. If fighter made the bomber to drop the bombs not reaching the target and did not shoot it down, he accomplished the mission too. But if fighter chaise enemy fighter, which supported the bombers and shot it down, and bombers hit their target, than this mission is not successful though this fighter made a kill. It means that the personal kill score prevent the fighter pilots of accomplishing their main mission.

That is why Germans implemented score system for the fighter pilot, substituting the conception of the kill with the conception of the victory. For example, be awarded with the Knight Cross fighter pilot had to get 40 "victories" but not 40 kills, in other words to get 40 points. These points were given as following: for shooting down one engine aircraft - 1 point, for shooting down two engine aircraft - 2 points, and for shooting down four engine aircraft - 3 points. As you can see, Germans motivated the fighter pilots to attack bombers.

That is why the "number of the victories" for the german aces is the number of points but not the number of actual kills. In reality the number of actual kills much lower. And the transformation of the victories into the "kills" is nothing more than propaganda. And this is propaganda of post war period. During war german pilots wrote in their reports not "kill" but "victory".

As it was already said to be awarded with Knight Cross pilot had to have 40 victories. German fighter pilots H. Lent and G. Yabs got their crosses after they shot down 16 and 19 enemy aircrafts. This is real kills but not the victories and there are the records in their biographies with aircraft type indications. In order to get the number of real kills it is necessary to divide number of victories with 2-2.5. Lent was awarded with the diamonds to his Knight Cross for 100 victories. And best german ace Hartmann, which fought on the Eastern front, received the same award to 300 victories. The ration between this numbers is 3. That is why in order to get real number of kills for the Hartmann you have to divide number of his victories with 3 and than with 2-2.5., it means divide it with 6-7.5. As most Soviet bombers had 2 engines 6 is more accurate coefficient. Result of the calculations is about 60 real kills for Hartmann.

Hartmann (352 victories), Barkhorn ( 301), Rall (275), Graf (212), Linfert (203) served together in JG 52 squadron, which had 100 fighters. In the battles near Prut, this squadron caused big losses of Soviet aircrafts. To solve this problem Soviet commanding sent 9-th air division under command of the Pokrishkin (also about 100 aircrafts). After the fight was over Linnert wrote "I have never met such a strong and demanding enemy before". During this fight Barkhorn - the second ace of the squadron was shod down. Most interesting thing was that germans new about Soviet ace squadrons which were created to confront german ace squadrons and they avoided the fights with such squadrons. German radio signal "Attention! Pokrishkin is in the air!" is well known. German aces preferred to attack rookies and avoided the fights with experienced pilots.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:58 PM
Hi guys! I just found very interesting research. It is very fundamental that's why I picked only small part of it for translation, mostly conclusions. Hope you will enjoy the reading.


Luftwaffe pilot's performance was measured with victories but not with the kills, like in RAF of VVS. Here the question rises why germans substituted conception of "kill" with the conception of "victory".

The main force of aviation was bombers. Actually fighters did exist only to support the bombers. By the way bomber pilots need to have much more courage in the combat than fighter pilots. During WWII stormer pilot in average survived 11 sorties, bomber pilot - 48 sorties and fighter pilot - about 70 sorties. Taking off to support stormer IL-2 fighter pilot had six times more chances to return on the base than stormer pilot, which he had to support.

In Soviet Union fighter pilots had all the fame. There are three times Heroes of Soviet Union only among the fighter pilots. This was all the way around in Luftwaffe. Most famous pilot of Luftwaffe - Hans Rudel was Ju-87 dive bomber pilot. He is the only person who got all honors of the Reich and all medals were made of gold specially and only for him.

Germans understood that main mission of the fighters is not the elimination of the enemy aircrafts, but to let friendly bombers hit their targets and do not let enemy bombers to hit theirs. If the fighter shot down enemy bomber on the approach to his target, he accomplished his mission. If fighter made the bomber to drop the bombs not reaching the target and did not shoot it down, he accomplished the mission too. But if fighter chaise enemy fighter, which supported the bombers and shot it down, and bombers hit their target, than this mission is not successful though this fighter made a kill. It means that the personal kill score prevent the fighter pilots of accomplishing their main mission.

That is why Germans implemented score system for the fighter pilot, substituting the conception of the kill with the conception of the victory. For example, be awarded with the Knight Cross fighter pilot had to get 40 "victories" but not 40 kills, in other words to get 40 points. These points were given as following: for shooting down one engine aircraft - 1 point, for shooting down two engine aircraft - 2 points, and for shooting down four engine aircraft - 3 points. As you can see, Germans motivated the fighter pilots to attack bombers.

That is why the "number of the victories" for the german aces is the number of points but not the number of actual kills. In reality the number of actual kills much lower. And the transformation of the victories into the "kills" is nothing more than propaganda. And this is propaganda of post war period. During war german pilots wrote in their reports not "kill" but "victory".

As it was already said to be awarded with Knight Cross pilot had to have 40 victories. German fighter pilots H. Lent and G. Yabs got their crosses after they shot down 16 and 19 enemy aircrafts. This is real kills but not the victories and there are the records in their biographies with aircraft type indications. In order to get the number of real kills it is necessary to divide number of victories with 2-2.5. Lent was awarded with the diamonds to his Knight Cross for 100 victories. And best german ace Hartmann, which fought on the Eastern front, received the same award to 300 victories. The ration between this numbers is 3. That is why in order to get real number of kills for the Hartmann you have to divide number of his victories with 3 and than with 2-2.5., it means divide it with 6-7.5. As most Soviet bombers had 2 engines 6 is more accurate coefficient. Result of the calculations is about 60 real kills for Hartmann.

Hartmann (352 victories), Barkhorn ( 301), Rall (275), Graf (212), Linfert (203) served together in JG 52 squadron, which had 100 fighters. In the battles near Prut, this squadron caused big losses of Soviet aircrafts. To solve this problem Soviet commanding sent 9-th air division under command of the Pokrishkin (also about 100 aircrafts). After the fight was over Linnert wrote "I have never met such a strong and demanding enemy before". During this fight Barkhorn - the second ace of the squadron was shod down. Most interesting thing was that germans new about Soviet ace squadrons which were created to confront german ace squadrons and they avoided the fights with such squadrons. German radio signal "Attention! Pokrishkin is in the air!" is well known. German aces preferred to attack rookies and avoided the fights with experienced pilots.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:12 PM
Wow thats some great info!, thanks! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:34 PM
That math for Hartmann may work, but the truth of it is that he shot down hardly any bombers. Most of his kills were Lagg-3's, Mig's, La5's and P39's.

The other difference in being an ace is by the standards the country set them. i.e. to be an american ace you only needed 15 kills, British like 40 and like 60 or something to be a german ace. I'm not sure the actual figures, and I'm not necessarily contesting the information. (since I don't know for sure) But, if this information is true than how come Hartmann is still the highest scoring ace in history? Cause he is. 300+ kills, or air victories (90% of them were fighters which still puts him atop the board --- See Hartmann's biography "Blond knight of Germany" -- Actually written by an american pilot).

People may try to get into discussions about what is, according to the scoring systems, etc.. There was a discussion about Korean and Vietman scoring here awhile ago. Point is it doesn't really matter. People try to change the books of history, but in this case I don't think there is a point. If the people who won the war acknowledge that he's the best (which is not in their best interest), than you can be pretty sure that there is no fooling involved, and you can trust it.

lil'

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:46 PM
In what language was your source written? Can i have a link pls?



http://hptvonstranzki.privat.t-online.de/sig_stranzki.jpg

Hpt. von Stranzki, Geschwaderführer der KG Greif (http://www.stosstrupp-steiner.de)
Wir suchen noch Piloten!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:49 PM
Sorry, but these are Half-Truths. The system existed, but the original poster missed to post some facts. He also seems to know nothing at all about Luftwaffe history...
The whole

First his "Luftwaffe emphasized escort" claim. It emphasized escort to such an extent that escort fighters and bombers could not talk over radio.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
And the fact that over half of all high awards holders were fighter pilots prove the empasis on Bombers, of course.
What he quotes was maybe true for Poland 1939, where fighters were really deemed unimportant. That was prewar Luftwaffe doctrine
This system he described was only implemented in mid-1944 and in one theater only: The defence of Germany.
And kills were still counted singly. A B-17 was one "kill", only it counted 4 "points". "Points" and Kills were seperate. The only dubvious thing in that system was that a "Herausschuß" was counted as a kill as well. That meant damaging a bomber and forcing it to leave formation. So some kills were not really kills. But Schnaufer shot down 121 4-engined bombers. Most of these (around 100) can be validated with RAF sources.
And on the east front, apart from Pe-2s and Douglas Bostons, nearly all encountered aircraft were single-engined.
And that "Pokryshkin in the air" thing is soviet Propaganda. German units, especially JG 52, had good radio intelligence, but such a statement was never recorded.
There was one occasion I found in a book where soviet radio intercepters broadcasted something like this on the german frequency. The answer was "So what, a$$hole? I'm Sachsenberg and tell your great ace to come up so I can shoot him down!"
The answerer was Heino "Wimmersaal" Sachsenberg, a 137 kill ace by the end of the war.
Germans had exactly the same kill criteria than the soviets on the east front, at least since Pokryshkin made the VVS abandon the need for wreckage to prove a victory.

The only nations which had a system like the orignal post described were Rumania and Bulgaria. Rumania only introduced it in 1944.
In Bulgaria, the top ace, Stoyan Stoyanov, shot down 5 Bombers and 1 Mustang, so he had 17 Points. That is often falsely quoted as 17 victories.
But Bulgaria and Rumania were the only ones with such a system.

http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.jpg


Message Edited on 08/26/0306:53PM by theRealAntEater

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:50 PM
Sorry maxim,

but that's not right. You're talking about the german score system to earn the medals. Hartmann really shot 352 planes down or had 352 kills. The german Luftwaffe introduced this system to compare the kills achieved in the western theather with kills done in the eastern theather of operations. Obviously it is harder to destroy a 4-mot bomber than a single-engine fighter. Therefore the german pilots were credited with 3 let us say points but only with one kill. They counted the points to earn the medals and not the kills.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:02 PM
yup

yes the germans did have a scoring system, but those well known kill counts are in fact actual kills, not their final scores.

here's a site about the german aces. not all of the info for all aces is accounted for here (to be expected with so many aces to track down), but its got some good stuff there.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/index.html


here's 2 guys from that site that had all the info on planes shotdown and killed both bombers AND fighters. you'll see that the victories are actual planes.

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/kientsch.html

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/hoffmann.html


im not saying this stuff is completely accurate, but im pretty sure its close.

- Gutted

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:10 PM
Author of this research does not intend to prove that Hartmann is not the best fighter pilot ever. His point is that it is necessary to compare performance of german pilots with russian, american and british correctly. Buy his rough calculations Hartmann had 60 kills. This is much more realistic number than official 325. Compare it to the best Allies ace Kozhedub - 62 kills (By the way, he was not a russian as soviet propaganda may state, but ukrainian.)

I also read another research, which compared the performance not only on kills basis but taking into account how many times pilot was shot down, the level of enemy he fought, type of missions, etc. According to that research, at first stage of the war German pilots was not allowed for the combat without proper training, unlike russian pilots who were put into to the fight after few hours of training flights. That is why it was much easier to score for the german pilots in the beginning of the war. Another factor: most of german aces were shot down 2 times and more. One of them even had a nickname "paratrooper", while Kozhedub was not shot down even single time during all the war. One more factor is that most german aces served in hunter squadrons. They attacked only having obvious advantage. Pilots from these squadrons never had other type of missions as reconnaissance, for example, while Pokrishkin (59 kills) spent almost whole 1942 year for this type of missions.

This research was published in Russian. Here is the link: http://www.aviation.ru/articles/scores.html

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:14 PM
theRealAntEater wrote:
- There was one occasion I found in a book where
- soviet radio intercepters broadcasted something like
- this on the german frequency. The answer was "So
- what, a$$hole? I'm Sachsenberg and tell your great
- ace to come up so I can shoot him down!"

So and did he shoot him down? I guess not, because Pokrishkin kept on flying and shooting Nazi planes down. If Sachsenberg really said so he is a braging fool. Pokrishkin could say the saime to him as well. "Pokrishkin in the air" is not a propaganda. Your argument: Geramns didn't record suca a statement is flawed. Why would they admit that. The fact that German "free hunting" aces avoided Soviet aces is documented in memoirs of many WWII pilots.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:19 PM
noone ever said hartmann is the 'best' fighter pilot ever. thinking that is naive. im sure there were plenty other guys who could best him in a 1v1 situation. but thats not how war is.

he knew full well that extended fights with the enemy was a good way to die. so he always attacked with an advantage. a man that flew with brains. he's just simply the most successful of all time. and even survived the war to tell about it.

quite an accomplishment, but saying he's the best dogfighter would be dumb.

- Gutted

-------------------------------------
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Make sure your Windows Media Player is up to date.

Message Edited on 08/26/0307:21PM by gutted_666

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:33 PM
Of course he did not shoot him down. Sachsenberg was a braggart, but he surely did shoot down a lot of planes.
He's just my favorite fighter pilot because he pulled off a lot of crazy stunts in the air and on the ground, which included trading insults with soviets over the radio.

I only wanted to make clear that such radio broadcasts intimidated no one. No soviet fighter pilot would have refused to fly either, only on hearing that german aces are in the air.
There were a lot of dogfights with excellent russians. Helmut Lipfert writes in his diary "it is not a matter of russian or german, but of skill. Russian novice pilots make the same mistakes as our own." He also writes about a lot of duels with good russian pilots, stating that usually nobody got shot down in such fights, and they lasted almost an hour.
But "truth" is a mighty strong word, and there are a lot of researchers into that topic with a totally different opinion. And the main argumnet (4 engined counted 4 times) is flawed. So maybe the russian researcher only confirmed 60 victories of Hartmann. Fine. This will most likely be the result of either soviet records missing or the fact that planes attacked by Hartmann didnt crash but made it back to base, or more likely, belly landed and could be repaired. Or a mixture of both. Did soviets have the same "category II damage" thing as the english had? The english counted only totally destroyed planes as lost, which is the reason for some discrepancies. If a Spitfire belly landed and the engine was re used in another one, it wasnt lost...I am sure that Hartmann did not score 352 victories exactly. But I am also sure it was more than 60. There are west front Aces (Priller, for example) who scored 100 victories and each victory is proven. So scoring over 100 is not impossible. Also, what about Graf, Lipfert, Nowotny, Batz and all the rest?

Russian pilots did not shoot down that many aircraft because there were not that much targets. A german pilot could meet enemy aircraft serveral times every day in 1943-44, because of the huge numerical supriority. So if a good pilot has more opportunities to shoot down aircraft, he will shoot down more than an equally good pilot with less opportunities for air combat. Also, how long did Pokryshkin fly? I have read his book and to me it seems he only flew constantly over the Ukraine in 1941 until about mid 1942. Then again from early 1943 to about mid 1944. So he didnt fly the whole war...

http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.jpg



Message Edited on 08/26/0307:43PM by theRealAntEater

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:40 PM
I disagree from the vast reading I have done on how kills were awarded I have actually looked at copies of kill logs plus the process for verify a kill. As far as I am concerned there is a point system for the Medals/Awards but the kills are kills.



Happy hunting and check six!

Tony Ascaso, RN

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:49 PM
This is nonsense. And very much tinged with propaganda.

Anyone can look at the new biography of Gunther Rall. It shows photos of the log book entries recording his kills for his sorties. Almost everyone of the entries is either a fighter or an IL2. And that's really 275 KILLS.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:00 PM
I have to disagree with you. Kill is kill was not true. Soviet Union was very bureaucratic with no trust to individuals. Pilot had a kill in his record only if ground troops confirm that aircraft crashed and other pilots confirm the kill as well. The kill confirmed from one source was not recorded. It means that all aircrafts, which crashed on enemy territory, were not considered and kills. That's why Pokrishkin insisted on the change of this rule because other pilots avoided fights over enemy territory. Officially Pokrishkin had about 50 kills but in his books you can count about 70 kills.

Completely different situation was for german pilots. Victory was given to the pilot if the camera, which was installed on the fighter, recorded the shooting. It doesn't mean that aircraft, which was attacked, actually crashed. Big percentage of them returned to the based and was not considered as lost.

Just imagine how many kills Pokrishkin could have if he considered every attack as a victory!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:02 PM
Actually not entirely true - it is not 275 KILLS but 275 CLAIMS.
Overclaming was a big problem for all sides during WWII.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:04 PM
maxim26 wrote:

-
- Completely different situation was for german
- pilots. Victory was given to the pilot if the
- camera, which was installed on the fighter, recorded
- the shooting. It doesn't mean that aircraft, which
- was attacked, actually crashed. Big percentage of
- them returned to the based and was not considered as
- lost.
-
-

Know nothing about German confirmation do you?

Where can I get my Red Banner?

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:07 PM
Actually this dispute is not necessary. Soviet pilots proved everything in 1945 by winning the war. Pokrishking flew over Berlin looking for the enemy but he returned on the base not having even minor fight. VVS dominated in the air completely. And this even mote shame to nazis with their statements that german fighters were superior to soviet fighters. It means that people who flew it were just better pilotsfº

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:13 PM
In the Biography of Hartmann I have, it describes his radio broadcast at the time of his victories. He describes his kills as "shootdowns". Is this a victory, kill or what. By my definition, it's a shootdown. Same as a kill. 5 of which made an American an ace. 100 made a German an Experten.




http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/_uimages/p47atm.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:13 PM
The well known ammount of kills of Hartmann and other German aces are the sum of downed aircrafts /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif and not to explained with the awardsystem, where they got more "points" for bombers etc..

They got so much kills, because they flew many sorties, had a lot of enemies, and were very good pilots (they got more and more experience during every mission, they have flown).


If your source is really very long and detailed, the authour waisted a lot of paper /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

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Message Edited on 08/26/0310:16PM by Atzebrueck

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:14 PM
Well he was in the wrong area then./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Hartmann got a VVS fighter that started to celibrate the "great" victory too early./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:20 PM
Or simply, they had more of them...
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

German kill confirmation procedure in reality was a little different.
Gun cameras did almost not exist in the east. If you live in an earth hole in Anapa, how are you supposed to develop the film anyway? They could not even supply their fighter pilots with enough food, so you think they bothered delivering film rolls to the front?
In Lipferts diary, you see serveral kill reports, which are written not on the form for kill confirmation, but on the backside of something else. Simply because they did not even have enough paper on the Kuban Bridghead.
And if german military bureaucracy runs out of paper, it means that things are really bad /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
For a kill (in the east), you needed a witness of the Crash. This could be your wingman, a ground unit or any other aircraft in the area. Wreckage examination was not necessary, but observation of the impact on the ground. This was generally not a problem on the east front, as most combats were fought at low altitude. If a pilot though he had scored decisive hits on an enemy in air combat, he shouted "Abschuß!" over the radio, signalling other friendly pilots to watch for the crash. If somebody observed it, he confirmed with ("Victor Abschuß" or "Victor, Victor"). Back on the base, both successful pilot and witness had to write a report.
Gun Camera was accepted on the west front, but only in combination with wreckage found on the ground, or ground observation. If somebody scored hits on a heavy bomber and only had gun camera for that, it was called "effective attack" but you did not get any further recognition. The best thing you could get with Camera evidence only was a Herausschuß of a heavy bomber. And as serveral others have pointed out, the german word is "Abschuß" which means "shootdown". Not "victory".

http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.jpg


Message Edited on 08/26/0308:22PM by theRealAntEater

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:23 PM
Maxim26, take a look here http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/text.html , this article is quite enlightning /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

"Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty but the pig enjoys it!"

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:33 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Well he was in the wrong area then./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Hartmann got a VVS fighter that
- started to celibrate the "great" victory too
- early./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
<img
- src="http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-s
- tormclouds2.jpg">
-

Yeah right, in his dreams. Germans had to recruite 13-years boys and send them to their deaths for Great Germany and your heroic Hartmann was cruising over Berlin shooting down soviets. How patetic is that?!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:37 PM
pretty pathetic, but since it still happens today I guess it shows we haven't grown up all that much.

I'm a crappy pilot, but one hell of a shot.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:39 PM
Desant, you're taking this way too seriously.
I (and I think I speak for all Germans here) have nothing but the highest respect for soviet WW2 fighter pilots, and other soviet soldiers. They fought against our grandfathers, but the war is over since 60 years ago, and it is good that your grandfathers won it, not ours.
Today, we should be able to see these things less emotionally
The only thing we cricize is this article. No one has anything against Russians or Russia
Would be play FB if we had???
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:46 PM
theRealAntEater wrote:
- Desant, you're taking this way too seriously.
- I (and I think I speak for all Germans here) have
- nothing but the highest respect for soviet WW2
- fighter pilots, and other soviet soldiers. They
- fought against our grandfathers, but the war is over
- since 60 years ago, and it is good that your
- grandfathers won it, not ours.
- Today, we should be able to see these things less
- emotionally
- The only thing we cricize is this article. No one
- has anything against Russians or Russia
- Would be play FB if we had???
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- <img
- src="http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.j
- pg">
-

Im sorry if i offended you, but the remarks of MiloMorai were mean. I didnt star this.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:04 PM
JorBR wrote:
- Maxim26, take a look here <a
- href="http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/te
- xt.html"
- target=_blank>http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/
- bc-rs/text.html</a> , this article is quite
- enlightning /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .
-
- "Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty but
- the pig enjoys it!"

Very interesting article, thank you. Is this from "Black Cross Red Star"?

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:15 PM
No, AFAIK this article is only available there although VolumeI discuss briefly the german and soviet training system at the beggining of war.

"Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty but the pig enjoys it!"

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:17 PM
theRealAntEater wrote:
- Desant, you're taking this way too seriously.
- I (and I think I speak for all Germans here) have
- nothing but the highest respect for soviet WW2
- fighter pilots, and other soviet soldiers. They
- fought against our grandfathers, but the war is over
- since 60 years ago, and it is good that your
- grandfathers won it, not ours.
- Today, we should be able to see these things less
- emotionally
- The only thing we cricize is this article. No one
- has anything against Russians or Russia
- Would be play FB if we had???


Well, it's usually what happens when ppl new to the forum come in. They get their nickers in a twist over stuff because they believe in the general view of things and find conciderable evidence here to the contrary. This is like the newb Yanks (I'm a Yank, BTW) who come on here and say stuff like: "Hey, what about the P-51? It was the greatest fighter of the war. It won the war." It happens so often a joke thread got started over it. This and many other subjects have been nearly discussed to death. And it's not about nationalism. It's more a quest to get things sorted out accurately.

At first I had my doubts about the high numbers of claims by the LW. I realized that everybody overclaimed in the war to one degree or another. But I found out that the LW system for counting kills was very thorough. And so there's no doubt that these claims are certainly close.

And then this gets countered by things like: "Well, we won so there!" Well, no not exactly. Sure we all know who won. But there are details that can not be swept under the rug because of that.

I would suggest the book Black Cross/ Red Star. Most enlightening.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:57 PM
LilHorse wrote:
-
- Well, it's usually what happens when ppl new to the
- forum come in. They get their nickers in a twist
- over stuff because they believe in the general view
- of things and find conciderable evidence here to the
- contrary.

Come on! If you see that person doesn't have too much postings it doesn't meant that he is new here. I fly with Decant online a lot and chat with him. He's not worst pilot here and knows history. But you look at history from different prospective.

Nobody will convince me that german pilots were so honest not to underestimate their performance. But I can be sure that Soviet pilots have as many kills as it was in reality or less. And not because they were so honest, but because system didn't let them do so.

Other thing. Did you ever think why score of german pilots differ so much from the score of other countries pilots. I'm not talking about Soviet Union. American aces have approximately the same score as Soviet of British.

Nazi propaganda was really strong in that time. Let's don't forget what dictatorship is. Hitler's problem was to make germans fight.

Yes Hartmann and others was good pilots. Buts hundreds of kills it's a propaganda bullsit. And buy the way, the log book with the records doesnt prove everything. In Luftwaffe on the Eastern Front was created the propaganda environment which encourage pilots to cheat. And it did work. It made everybody thing that serious fighting is going on. But reality was that Luftwaffe resist to VVS only till the end of 1942 - beginning of 1943. During Stalingrad Battle VVS completely controlled the air. Surrounded german 6-th army was supposed to be supplied by the air. But Luftwaffe failed. Most germans aircrafts dropt supplies on the positions of Red Army after attacks of VVS fighters. Bf109, which were escorting them, could do nothing.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:05 PM
x-(

-------------------
http://320015073007-0001.bei.t-online.de/il2-forum/signatur.gif
JG51_Atze

JG51 (http://www.jg51.de)
Virtual Online War (http://www.s-driess.de/vow/index.php?page=homeion=home)
"Ich bin ein Wurgerwhiner"

Message Edited on 08/27/0312:05AM by Atzebrueck

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:06 PM
nice try maxim.but your wrong.luftwaffe pilots got"points"
or victories the same as the allies.have you read any books
on the luftwaffe?galland,hartmann etc you ll find all the
info you need.and your point about medals,as a service the
luftwaffe had more of the highest medals(knights cross w/
oak leaves,swords and diamonds)then any other.next time do
a little research.let me guess you fly vvs,lol.

After it was refeuled i climbed in.With many manipulations the mechcanics started the turbines.I followed their actions with the greatest of interest.The first one started quite easily.the second caught fire.In no time the whole engine was on fire.Luckily as a fighter pilot i was used to getting quickly out of the cockpit.The fire was quickly put out.The second plane caused no trouble - Adolf Galland (first time in a ME262)

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:12 PM
maxim26 wrote:
During Stalingrad
- Battle VVS completely controlled the air. Surrounded
- german 6-th army was supposed to be supplied by the
- air. But Luftwaffe failed. Most germans aircrafts
- dropt supplies on the positions of Red Army after
- attacks of VVS fighters. Bf109, which were escorting
- them, could do nothing.


Ahem...
During the first part of the Battle the VVS was pretty much butchered. The Uranus operation itself took place in a bad weather phase, during which no side could fly. German air activity dropped because of soviet troops overrunning their airfields, not because of VVS air supremacy. There was not much air combat in the second phase of Stalingrad. Every german aircraft, also fighters was used for ground support.
Do you know how many fighters the Luftwaffe had in Pitmomnik?
Six, sometimes even less, from 6./JG 77
These 109s were only used to defend the airfield itself. And even that only when transports were unloaded. And these six 109s shot down a lot of soviet aircraft directly over Pitomnik, witnessed by hundreds of people on the ground.
There was no fighter escort for german transports from Tazinskaja or Morosovskaja to Pitomnik. The weather was too bad for long range flights in single seat aircraft, especially since the fighters could not communicate with the transports and would have had to maintain visual contact with them in order not to get lost, which was impossible due to weather. The was one of the fundamental mistakes of german aviation, that there was good radio communications between fighters, but none between fighters and bombers. All of the Ju-52s, He 111s and Fw 200s went to Stalingrad unescorted. Except for the small Pitomnik detachment, the fighters were busy escorting the Stukas and Bombers which were trying to keep soviet Troops from overunning the Bases from which supplies were flown in.
So that is the situation in which the airlift was done: The bases of the lift were had soviet tanks within 20 km of the runway. The supplies supposed to be delivered to Stalingrad had to be brought thousands of kilometers. During the flight, through very bad weather, the Transport crew's only possibility of orientation was grounds sight (and that in the Steppe!). Radio beacons were unreliable because the soviets had put up jammers and false beacons. Even with stripping blind flying schools, turning bomber groups into transports and abusing Germany's only maritime Recon unit (KG 40 with its Condors) as transports, there were not enough airplanes! But all supplies were flown in, until Gumrak was lost in late January. Supply drops were relatively rare, even if most cargo was rigged so that it could be dropped, should Pitomnik or Gumrak be currently under air attack.
The soviets at Stalingrad had a radar station, and good ground control, so they could fly even in bad weather. The soviets were able to vector fighters toward transports by Radar.
In a way, you're right. From 1943 on, the VVS mostly had air supremacy. The german fighter war in the east was like Partisan war in the air. Like in Partisan warfare on the ground, the controlling force takes much more losses than the Partisans, even if they only do slight damage compared to the whole numbers....

http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.jpg



Message Edited on 08/26/0310:18PM by theRealAntEater

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:22 PM
I should admit: theRealAntEater knows stuff

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:54 PM
Now lets see what I said was so 'mean' <rolleyes>

"Know nothing about German confirmation do you?

Where can I get my Red Banner?"

and

"Well he was in the wrong area then. Hartmann got a VVS fighter that started to celibrate the "great" victory too early."

Hartmann was over Brun(Brno), ~550km from Berlin with his wingmen.


The constant spewing of Red bs brainwashing is nausiating especially when you won't accept what others are saying.

Why don't you, Desant, and your bud, maxim, listen to what AntEater has to say. He speaks without the fanatical brainwashing crap you 2 are posting.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:16 AM
theRealAntEater wrote:
The only nations which had a system like the orignal
- post described were Rumania and Bulgaria. Rumania
- only introduced it in 1944.

Yes, Romania, introduced this system in early '44,but as a general rule, usualy, was used mainly for omologating bombers. There were many case(the majority of them) where 2 engined fighters were counted as ONE victory.
Also, about that "Pokrichkin in the air" anyone read Polevoi's book " The story of a real man" ?
Remember about that"Achtung La fumf" that the germans were shouting in the radios? BS!
Also, someone stated before that axis fighters, engaged only rookie pilots.
False.
They were flying their mission, and if posible engage the enemy.
They indeed, sometimes evoided to attach superiorical(tehnical or number) nemy, but I don't think it happened to often.
For exaple, take any raid over Germany, Romania, and Hungary, when 10-20 planes were intercepting hundreds of bombers escorted by other hundreds of fighter, so they realy didn't have much of a choice.
My opinion is that when atacking hundreds of enemyes you don't have the time to choose a rookie.

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:20 AM
First off American and British pilots had to fly only so many missions and if they had high scores they were retired early for training and whatnot.Secondly I'm really sick of the "hail mighty soviet union" posts that show up in abundance.Anyone who posts yea nazi's is locked and banned as they should be.But to sing the praises of Stalins regime is fine.This is a board from a french sim producer you'd think it would be less biased.German pilots fought for their country as did soviet pilots no matter what any of them thought of their countries regimes.Please read sources from all sides before making up your mind.And I really don't care if this post "disappears" like 2 more of mine have.As far as my origin US.I read history and manuals etc.I don't do p-51 patriotic claptrap.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:32 AM
turenne,
I perfecly understand and agree your point.
Many ppl here think that if some pilots fought for the axis they were automaticaly criminals, and they don't have the right to be called heroes.
But this was already discussed, and I don't like getting into political debates....

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:43 AM
MiloMorai,

- fanatical brainwashing crap you 2 are posting

what is it?!!!! I just doubted the fact that german fighter pilots performed as well as Nazi propaganda stated and you said it's not true and that's it. No proof no analyses. Just that was like that because you like it. I'd like to know, where r u from and the reason why you love Natzis so bad.

And mean thing you said was about Pokrishkin. I red many of his books and belive me it was very honest and strait person. Me and my bud did not said bad thing about Hartmann or other german pilot.

I didn't mean to insult germans. I love Mersedeces and BMWs, Siemens. I drove car eith Diesel engine invented by german. But I hate than sombody invert histori.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:48 AM
I've seen plenty of interesting statements on this board but the one you made has
balance and seems to have more truth than much of the hype some of the other
postings have. I agree with all that you said. Many of the pilots that were killed
probably had atleast as much skill and talent as the aces that outlived the war.
They may have had a poor wingman, mechanical problems at a crucial moment,
etc...... There are so many factors to consider in combat or simply flying period.
I think many of the pilots that died before becoming aces had plenty of the right
stuff, just didn't get the breaks they needed as the aces we are familiar with.
One part that is interesting is about the gutsy soviet female pilots of WWII.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:07 AM
a simple point is missed here

regardless of initial skill or training

the axis aces flew so many missions for such an extended tour of duty with so much day to day combat they could not fail to become very highly skilled





<center> http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQDLAtUWiWZ3BKw19!aryp7v3C1h1DuNwpHOOuqhlraGSyMAY KiPEOZAA1OBgsLu*Sa0UQ2my0PiFyvNkJ5K7Clsoy7yNtEvOXY nHDuPNiotpZACY2oJxw/aircraftround.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:08 AM
maxim26 wrote:

-
- what is it?!!!! I just doubted the fact that german
- fighter pilots performed as well as Nazi propaganda
- stated and you said it's not true and that's it. No
- proof no analyses. Just that was like that because
- you like it. I'd like to know, where r u from and
- the reason why you love Nazis so bad.
-

maxim, where did I say what you said I did? Seems you have a reading problem.

"Know nothing about German confirmation do you?"

and

"Well he was in the wrong area then. Hartmann got a VVS fighter that started to celibrate the "great" victory too early."

and to clarify where Hartmann was,

"Hartmann was over Brun(Brno), ~550km from Berlin with his wingmen.

-
- And mean thing you said was about Pokrishkin. I read
- many of his books and belive me it was very honest
- and strait person. Me and my bud did not say bad
- thing about Hartmann or other german pilot.
-

You 2 continually call the German pilots liars. Where did I mention Pokrishkin?

-
- I didn't mean to insult germans. I love Mersedeces
- and BMWs, Siemens. I drove car eith Diesel engine
- invented by german. But I hate than sombody invert
- histori.
-
-

But you did insult ALL non-Soviets with your rah rah flag waving.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:09 AM
maxim26 wrote:
- MiloMorai,
-
-- fanatical brainwashing crap you 2 are posting
-
- what is it?!!!! I just doubted the fact that german
- fighter pilots performed as well as Nazi propaganda
- stated and you said it's not true and that's it. No
- proof no analyses. Just that was like that because
- you like it. I'd like to know, where r u from and
- the reason why you love Natzis so bad.
-
- And mean thing you said was about Pokrishkin. I red
- many of his books and belive me it was very honest
- and strait person. Me and my bud did not said bad
- thing about Hartmann or other german pilot.
-
- I didn't mean to insult germans. I love Mersedeces
- and BMWs, Siemens. I drove car eith Diesel engine
- invented by german. But I hate than sombody invert
- histori.

DUH!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
I don't know why your statement sounds *strange*, loving car types is something VERY different from loving and understanding ppl.
I don't have a diesel-engined engined car, but a usual gasoline one. That means I hate the Germans????
No, dude, you either are quite confuse with yourself, either got the bad example. A very bad one. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif



<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:15 AM
turenne wrote:
- First off American and British pilots had to fly
- only so many missions and if they had high scores
- they were retired early for training and
- whatnot.Secondly I'm really sick of the "hail mighty
- soviet union" posts that show up in abundance.Anyone
- who posts yea nazi's is locked and banned as they
- should be.But to sing the praises of Stalins regime
- is fine.This is a board from a french sim producer
- you'd think it would be less biased.German pilots
- fought for their country as did soviet pilots no
- matter what any of them thought of their countries
- regimes.Please read sources from all sides before
- making up your mind.And I really don't care if this
- post "disappears" like 2 more of mine have.As far as
- my origin US.I read history and manuals etc.I don't
- do p-51 patriotic claptrap.
-
-


This post wasn't about Soviet Union
This post wasn't about Nazis
This post wasn't about Stalin
This post was about scoring system

And finaly, UBI Soft doesn't produce anything. It's a publishing company. THey provide a service of getting producers (in this case 1C) and buyers (us people)

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:35 AM
Desant, I think turenne was rerering to a more *general* problem wich is very popular around.
Yes this thread was about scoring system, but you have to admit the presece of some, "pro-soviet" tendencies here.

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:38 AM
That's exactly right it is about the scoring.German kill confirmation was much tighter controlled than any other nation,albeit it was just like the western front in ww1 the allies were flying over their airspace.Even an amateur historian knows that this issue has been done to death.They have checked records of losses on the allied side and they are 95-98% on the money.This started in the fifties when books were written about the german scores and the authors were proved wrong.Just look at the amount of sorties the germans flew if the allies had flew that many their scores would be just as high.Or maybe not with there being so many more allied planes than axis.Esp. on the eastern front where pilots flew multiple missions per day.Check the #'s of allied planes lost,then explain to me who shot them down if not the axis flyers?The point systenm did exist for medals.The german medals were set up differently you could not go out and win a Knights cross you had to go up the levels.An american in his first combat could win the medal of honor and a brit could win the vic cross.Not so with the germans.When the original poster was shown his error he did not except it and then the thread was turned into a mud slinging contest about nations.Yes it is about scoring.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:53 AM
Von_Zero wrote:
- Desant, I think turenne was rerering to a more
- *general* problem wich is very popular around.
- Yes this thread was about scoring system, but you
- have to admit the presece of some, "pro-soviet"
- tendencies here.
-
-
What's wrong with "pro-soviet" tendencies if you've got your pro-nazi tendencies.

Read the original post, no tendencies just facts.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:07 AM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
What's wrong with "pro-soviet" tendencies if you've
- got your pro-nazi tendencies.
And what are more exactly my *pro-nazy* tendencies?
The point is that if someone comes here singing "Deuthscland Uber Alles", is promply banned, or condammned.
BUT if someone comes and flame the GERMANS (note: GERMAN not NAZY), nobody has nothing against him.
As your buddy said , " I hate when someone is inventing hystory". And that's exacly what he did.


<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:11 AM
I see a lot of folk decrying the fact that US 8th AF fighter pilots counted ground kills as part of their total scores (never mind these sort of attacks were 4 times more deadly than air-to-air combat). But its clear at least some "experten" did the same thing. Heinz Bar's total score contains numerous planes he "killed" on the ground during Operation Bodenplatte.

See the book:

"Six Months to Oblivion: The Defeat of the Luftwaffe Fighter Force Over the Western Front 1944/1945" by Werner Girbig.

I think the practice was quite common.


Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/tiger.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:35 AM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
-
- What's wrong with "pro-soviet" tendencies if you've
- got your pro-nazi tendencies.
-
-
- Read the original post, no tendencies just facts.
-
-

Nothing wrong with COMMIE tendancies./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Don't like that word, to bad, then don't call people Nazis./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The original post was full of errors. LOL

Brainwashing at its best./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:43 AM
ROFLMAO /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:50 AM
Wow where do i go to hear all this propaganda. in all my readings and dealings ive never heard anything like this i know.

Lets ask Gunther Rall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i bet he could clear alot of this up...

oh and by the way the reason why we know the german system is fairly accurate is because we have lost plain accounts to confirm all the written kill that the germans confermaed as well.

In fact most germans wouldnt even count a kill unless it could be verified. ie wont count if they splashed in the ocean cause no one can verify it. or if you were by yourself. or away from the fray. so thier tallys would actually be higher "not by alot" if you caounted all of these.

anyway im at work and cant get all the sources but this spewing of crap is iratating.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:51 AM
You call me commie, I call you Nazi.
I'm not the one who started the flames, you did.
And what Communism has to do with WWII any-way.
When Napoleon brought his army to Russia in 1812, there was no Communism. He got his *** kicked, and Russians went all the way to Paris.

And by the way Germans are the ones how invented Communism in the first place. So are they Commies as well as Nazies?

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 03:29 AM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
- You call me commie, I call you Nazi.
- I'm not the one who started the flames, you did.
- And what Communism has to do with WWII any-way.
- When Napoleon brought his army to Russia in 1812,
- there was no Communism. He got his *** kicked, and
- Russians went all the way to Paris.
-
- And by the way Germans are the ones how invented
- Communism in the first place. So are they Commies as
- well as Nazies?
-
-
-
-
-

Look dude, seems like you're not getting it.
Yes the nazy propaganda was exagerated, I personaly don't share any nazy opinions, and I don't have any connections with such groups, BUT the number of victories is NOT propaganda!!
Know what?? Have you read Closterman's "Grande Cirque"
Well if yes, then you should remember when he is tralking about the boddenplate operation, when alied propaganda was talking about a GREAT FAILIURE for the LW, with thousend of kills for the us and brits.
My country was under a comunist regime also, so I know what that means.
Know how it is to find books about WWII or about anything releated to aviation? and and find only BS propaganda??
Well I had a book(from the 60's IIRC), about jet propulsion.
Simple, theory, etc.. guess how it begins?? " During the greart patriotic war, Jet planes were destroying enemy planes in the sky" and the examples are more....
Russians invented the plane, the ballon, the glider....
ALL THAT IN A BOOK ABOUT JET PROPULSION FOR GOD SAKE!!!!!!
Nazy's didn't said anything like that during the war. Or if they did, they usualy were right.
you're russian, you should know and accept all that.
Yeah I know, winners write history.....
BTW, Napoleon got his *** kicked due to insufficient preparement he did for winter.

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 04:00 AM
Von_Zero wrote:
-
- BTW, Napoleon got his *** kicked due to
- insufficient preparement he did for winter.

Oh, i completely forgot. Winter warfare doesn't count. Sorry my bad.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 05:35 AM
OK guys, here is small test.

Question is: Who won WWII?

Hint: America is a wrong answer.


Also, I'd like to remind everybody. Cold War is over as well as WWII. Russians and Germans are no longer the enemies.

One more thing. Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians and other nations, which fought in Red Army fought not for the Stalin, not for the Comunist Party but they fought for their families, for their land. 80% of them were not comunist at all. So flames as "I'm sick of soviet stuff" are irrelevant. I'm just proud of my greand fathers and I'm proud of my country as anybody else. But my proud is not blind. I do not have a sticker on my car "Boycott France" as that redneck which I saw other day on Wal Mart parking lot.

I took a class with one girl. She just got back from Britain. And she said that British are stupid and they drive on the wrong side of the road. Also she said that Americans invented the car and they have a right to set the rules. She has no idea that it were Germans Ghotlib Dimler and Kark Bents who invented the car.

It seems to me that there are too many people like that girl in this forum




Message Edited on 08/27/0304:48AM by maxim26

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 05:46 AM
P.S. The fact that this game was created in Russia and by Russians do not stop you from enjoying it. I wonder why. They all are commies and this game has to be commy game too as half of aircrafts have red stars on the wings. So why dont you go and get MS Combat Flight Simulator. There are no russians in this game at all.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:08 AM
Actually Maxim you are starting to p!ss me off with your last post. Don't take up some holier-than-thou approach to views on the world. Every country including yours if full of sh!theads.

One thing people have to realize is that the germans flew many more missions that the allies. Some german pilots were shot down as many as three times in one day.

If their kills truly were bloated as Maxim claims then that discrepancy would have been cleared up somewhere well before here on this forum. The claim of 300+ kills are for all intents and purposes the same as 60 kills by any allied pilot.

Germans may have claimed kills they shouldn't have, but don't tell me allies didn't.

Germans fought the entire war, when the allies (speaking for America here) flew X number of missions they were rotated back to the states. Germans kept on fighting day after day, year after year.

Don't say that the germans used it for propoganda either. Every soldier and every pilot knew how the war was going, they didn't need bloated scores to tell them they might win. They new they were losing every day that passed. Its kind of like the weather channel telling you they set up a big fan that is blowing away all the rain and clouds, but you never see anything other than more and more rain.

And finally, the germans did not have any long range bomber force that could touch russian production lines. With the large resources of russia and the large population they were able to outproduce the germans and thus win the war. Not because they were somehow a superior people in the air or otherwise.

I would be interested to know who produced the information you posted and during what year? Perhaps you are reading Soviet propoganda used to minimize the impact of german pilots on the VVS?

In any case who really cares? Its over.

_____________________________________

When does a game end being a game and become a simulator? Interesting questions to ponder while waiting, from Aces-High.

_____________________________________

When does a game end being a game and become a simulator? Interesting questions to ponder while waiting, from Aces-High.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:11 AM
When we talk about scoring or scores, it is hard to compare the relative abilities of the top pilots of each country. Remember that each of the Air Forces trained and equipped their pilots with very different philosophies regarding what the fighter's mission was.

There was one constant, though. When a unit is fighting a defensive battle, and their equipment is generally comparable to the opposition, scores go up almost exponentially. Hence, the British did most of their scoring in bunches during the BoB and at Malta, the Americans performed similarly at Guadalcanal, the French AF did some good work in the Spring of 1940, and not surprisingly, the Germans, who fought the longest defensive air war of all, had a lot of skilled pilots in a target rich environment flying some pretty good planes and ran up the greateat scores of all time.

If you compare the scoring pace set by the top RAF BoB pilots to the ones set by Rall, Barkhorn and Hartmann, you'll see that they weren't that different. And if Joe Foss had had a Corsair and didn't come down with malaria after six weeks in Guadalcanal, he could easily have had 60-70 kills instead of 26 in two months.

Consider that all the Air Forces had guys who scored in multiples every time they made contact with the enemy (and I mean documented, no doubt about it, witnesses and wreckage multiple kills), but that most of them either rarely caught up to the opposition or finally got caught up in the meat grinder themselves.

The only advantage nationality gave any fighter pilot was in the form of training and equipment. The basic ability has always been in the individual, not the culture. So it is a mistake to say that one country's pilots were superior or that, conversely, all their scores were propaganda. If you're in a war, the last thing you want to do is accentuate the negative (unless of course you see a political advantage in it for you).All the fighter pilots I've ever known were optimists by nature, but they were pretty good at what they did, and I suspect that their confidence/optimism may have helped them to excell.

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" - LCOL Don Blakeslee, CO, 4th FG, March, 1944

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:39 AM
The German points system was in effect on the Western Front only,and for the purpose of medals points were awarded in this manner:

Single engine plane destroyed................1pt
Twin engine plane destroyed..................2pts
Three or four engine plane destroyed.........3pts
Three or four engined plane destroyed........2pts
Twin engine plane damaged....................1pt
Three or four engine plane damaged...........2pts*
Final destruction of a damaged twin engine...1/2pt
Final destruction of a damaged four engine...1pt

*Only awarded if damaged plane is seperated from combat box.

This was only used on the Western Front because it was beleived easier to shoot down VVS planes than American or British. And the bomber streams were considered tougher than attacking Soviet airpower.

So it is early 1943. You need 40pts to get the Knight's Cross. You already have 22 single engine,(22pts), 5 twin engine,(10pts),and 2 four engines,(6pts). You have 29 kills.But only 38pts.

So next day you damage 2 B-17s, forcing them to leave the box. You also destroy another B-17 your flight leader damaged. Now you have 29 kills, but 41pts. Enough for the KC.

Had you been on the Eastern Front, you need 11 more kills.



"To fight against twenty Russians that want to have a bite of one, or against Spitfires, is a joy. And one doesn't know that life is uncertain. But the curve into seventy Fortresses lets all the sins of one's life pass before one's eyes...." Hans Philipp, JG-54, Kommodore of
JG-1 from April 1, 1943. 206 victories. KIA Oct 8 '43 over Nordhorn by P-47s

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:42 AM
maxim26 wrote:
- I have to disagree with you. Kill is kill was not
- true. Soviet Union was very bureaucratic with no
- trust to individuals. Pilot had a kill in his record
- only if ground troops confirm that aircraft crashed
- and other pilots confirm the kill as well. The kill
- confirmed from one source was not recorded. It means
- that all aircrafts, which crashed on enemy
- territory, were not considered and kills. That's why
- Pokrishkin insisted on the change of this rule
- because other pilots avoided fights over enemy
- territory. Officially Pokrishkin had about 50 kills
- but in his books you can count about 70 kills.
-
- Completely different situation was for german
- pilots. Victory was given to the pilot if the
- camera, which was installed on the fighter, recorded
- the shooting. It doesn't mean that aircraft, which
- was attacked, actually crashed. Big percentage of
- them returned to the based and was not considered as
- lost.
-
- Just imagine how many kills Pokrishkin could have if
- he considered every attack as a victory!
-
-

Don't want to hurt anyone or anyone's feelings, but Soviet pilots had a lots of overclaims ( 'specially against Finns)
Soviet pilots claimed over 100 finnish Buffalos shot down and over 50 finnish FockeWulfs ( They thought that Curtiss Hawks were Wulfs )
In reality Finns had about 40 Buffalos and 20 - 30 Curtis Hawks.

I was in Budapest in summer 2000. I met there a former Soviet "politruk" who was in Murnmansk during war.
He told that all soviet planes that were shot down on the water, or were destroyed so that no one could see any marks of it ( sunk in a swamp etc ) were not considered as shot down, but "missing in action". One excample of this is that one Spit was found in northern Norway a few years ago, and only then Ruskies accepted that it was shot down by Germans.
This same "politruk" told me also that there were 3 kinds of truth in Soviet Union during Stalin's time:
1: the thruth told to normal poeple
2: the truth told to normal party member
3: the real truth

But as I wrote earlier... no offence to anyone

Regards

SheerLuck Holmes

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:49 AM
Actually Maxim, the Scotish invented the car, and also invented asphault to drive it on. So there!

And to whoever wondered why anyone who didn't like Russians would play IL-2, lots of us have something against Russians. Like that whole cold war and communist opression thing. We tend to fly for the Germans in this game, and make our mark against simulated communism. Others don't like Nazism, and fly for the russians. Some don't like either and play both for THAT reason.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:12 AM
I thought that generally you needed to have FIVE kill in order to be ace. many books speak of this. the whole osprey <chhose aircraft typ> ACES confirms this.

There whole lot more aces on the allied side that have accounted no more than 10 kills...

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:14 AM
I'm going to ignore the accusations and bad words in here and will try the reasonable way.


a) The german POINT SYSTEM maxim described was not used before mid-1944 and was only used in Reich Defense since shooting down 4-engined bombers was deemed more difficult than shooting down fighters or medium bombers on the Eastern Front. BUT: There was a strict border between a "Luftsieg" (kill) and the points this system awarded - these were just points (like those football teams get in the respective national leagues for example) meaning that if a pilot shot down a B17 and a P47 in a combat (let's assume these were real kills) he would receive recognition for two kills and would get 4 points (3 for destroying the B17, 1 for destroying the P47).

b) Comparing VVS fighter aces with Luftwaffe fighter aces (and especially their achievements) is somehow comparing apples to oranges. The VVS was - until 1943 - a military organisation that was crippled by insufficient pilot skills, archaic tactics and strict mission orders. Pokrishkin himself talked about an incident in 1941 where a higher officer held a "morale hour" with the pilots of Pokrishkin's unit and talked endlessly about the superiority of the I-16, MiG-3 and even I-153 over the Bf 109 F - in spite of the actual experiences on the front. When he spoke up and tried to stop these lies he was accused of lack of patriotism and pro-Nazism. A similar thing happened in early 1942 when he was heavily reprimanded for teaching effective ground attack tactics which were not conform with official VVS textbooks.

These very strict limits were not lifted until early 1943 when Novikov (sp?) reorganized the VVS. But still the pilots (fighter pilots here) were assigned very specific mission orders and had to accept any combat no matter what position they had.

German fighter pilots instead were taught to seek aerial kills only and largely ignored the "ground war" - ground attacks were highly appalling to german fighter pilots and they did a lot to avoid such missions (there was a "price" within IV./JG 54 for those pilots who managed to "write off" a Bf 109 in a heavy landing during the soviet offensive near Leningrad in 1944). German pilots were not bound to a ground object they had to keep safe or weren't chained to the bombers - they could hunt freely and usually did that from a position of tactical advantage.

I personally think "Black Cross - Red Star" is an excellent series on the Air War on the Eastern Front and the authors paint a picture of the Air War (using archives from both sides) that actually supports the german kill figures. In my humble opinion there is no need for any of these tirades we see here in this thread. The war is over - it ened 60 years ago.

---------------------------
http://home.t-online.de/home/340045970094-0001/lwskins_banner_gross.jpg (http://www.lwskins.de.vu)
Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:14 AM
Correct Jabo. You needed five, though I have heard three was enough in the marines or the navy... I'm not sure. But in Europe you needed five. Sourse is "Woodbine Red Leader" by a P51 mustange ace who lader became a general.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:54 AM
I look forward to reading the new book "Graf and Grislwaksi" . Should be shipping in two days. The authers did a fine job in that they were able to account for almost all of the two pilots kills. They have tallied records from both the Germans and the Russians and even interviewed survivors who were shot down by these two.
I believe you need to read this book.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:14 AM
maxim26 wrote:
- Completely different situation was for german
- pilots. Victory was given to the pilot if the
- camera, which was installed on the fighter, recorded
- the shooting. It doesn't mean that aircraft, which
- was attacked, actually crashed. Big percentage of
- them returned to the based and was not considered as
- lost.



boy thats ridiculous. you obviously have no clue what youre talking about. so why bother /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

---------------------------------------



http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.bryant3/ETSigGermany.gif




under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:21 AM
maxim26 wrote:
- I should admit: theRealAntEater knows stuff



yeah, he´s the complete opposite of you.

war not over yet, huh? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

---------------------------------------



http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.bryant3/ETSigGermany.gif




under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:27 AM
doublepost, sorry

Message Edited on 08/27/0309:35AM by NuFoerki

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:30 AM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
- You call me commie, I call you Nazi.
- I'm not the one who started the flames, you did.
- And what Communism has to do with WWII any-way.
- When Napoleon brought his army to Russia in 1812,
- there was no Communism. He got his *** kicked, and
- Russians went all the way to Paris.
-
- And by the way Germans are the ones how invented
- Communism in the first place. So are they Commies as
- well as Nazies?



muahahaha, what a crap. is your life that lousy that you aren´t even ashamed to ridicule yourself in public?


are you 10?



or younger?



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

---------------------------------------



http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.bryant3/ETSigGermany.gif




under 30k?

fluke39
08-27-2003, 10:22 AM
about this point system then--

i've always heard that at some point in the war the luftwaffe awarded two kills for downing a mosquito - as they were renowned for being hard to get - (this may have been just for nightfighters) - so does this mean two points - or two times two points (4) for it being a twin ? - - i can't see it being the same for a mossie as say a blenheim or wellington

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:42 AM
LOL, I read that in a bulgarian airforce forum. The author is russian, this is no research. in the intro to the article he shows considerable dispair to "democratic" russian writers who dont doubt the claims of german aces. that author uses everything to try to diminish the score of the Luftwaffe fliers-a perfect example of how the devil reads the Bible, if I can use that phrase. Take a look at the example with the points/kills. laughable! he can be very easily proved wrong. The star of Africa, the well-known Hans Joachim Marseille has 158 kills from 382 missions. If he had flown 1425 missions like Hartmann, pure calculation shows that he would have 589 kills!!! one thing from this research i find trustworthy, because the author is biased towards russian VVS and can be trusted:

The average survavibility during the great patriotic war:

fighter pilot: 64 missions
bomber pilot: 48 missions
Sturmovik pilot: 11 missions
torpedo bomber pilot: 3.8 missions(less than 4 missions)

and above all, a witness told the author that from 200 graduates of a board gunners school, after the war only 1 had survived, while losing his leg.

last thing i have to say: I am not complaining anymore about the ship flak! my goodness, 3.8 missions!!!


"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king."

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:50 AM
As others already explained.. the points system was only used for awarding medals in the defence of the Reich and had nothing to do with the kill numbers itself.

maxim26 wrote:
- In Soviet Union fighter pilots had all the fame.
- There are three times Heroes of Soviet Union only
- among the fighter pilots.

There were only three men that were awarded the HoS three times and they were all fighter pilots, but there were several Sturmovikpilots that were awarded the HoS two times.

- This was all the way
- around in Luftwaffe. Most famous pilot of Luftwaffe
- - Hans Rudel was Ju-87 dive bomber pilot. He is the
- only person who got all honors of the Reich and all
- medals were made of gold specially and only for him.

Thats true, but if you take a look on the second highest award (Knight Cross with Oak leaves, Swords and Diamonds) it gives a different view. The Diamonds were awarded 12 times to the Luftwaffe. Of that 12 persons, 10 were pilots: 7 dayfighter, 2 nightfighter and only 1 bomber (Rudel)

- Lent was awarded with the diamonds to
- his Knight Cross for 100 victories. And best german
- ace Hartmann, which fought on the Eastern front,
- received the same award to 300 victories.

Lent was a nightfighter ace, so you can't compare his 100 night kills to the day kills of Hartmann.

- As most Soviet bombers had 2 engines 6 is more accurate
- coefficient. Result of the calculations is about 60
- real kills for Hartmann.

Hartmann downed about 30 Il-2 and about 10 2-mot bombers, the majority of his kills were fighters.

- German aces preferred to attack rookies and
- avoided the fights with experienced pilots.

How were they able to recognize a rookie pilot in the air? That they often downed rookies had to do with the German main tactic: BnZ
So they often got the rookie pilots by surprise because they were not experienced enough to check the airspace routinely.
If an experienced Soviet fighter pilot was able to avoid the BnZ attack the Germans lost the element of surprise and broke off the attack because they only accepted fights with tactical advantage while Soviet pilots fought in every circumstances.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 11:05 AM
This was all the way around in Luftwaffe. Most famous pilot of Luftwaffe - Hans Rudel was Ju-87 dive bomber pilot. He is the only person who got all honors of the Reich and all medals were made of gold specially and only for him.

I can't help it - I need to respond. The "Knights Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds" was a special case within the german medal system. There were only 12 to be awarded EVER and only to the bravest of the soldiers (there were a few categories for the award, would have to look for them at home). But one - and probably the most important - criteria for this award was never made public, although if one could read between the lines it was blatantly obvious : This award was not just for bravery on the battlefield, but IN THE FIRST LINE for absolute political identification with Hitler and the NS ideology. And this is where the Golden Oak Leaves differ from the "normal" Knights Cross awards - the latter were hardly political at all. Rudel was the only one who really sticked to Hitler until the end (and actually for decades after the war - he was a hardcore Nazi until his death).



---------------------------
http://home.t-online.de/home/340045970094-0001/lwskins_banner_gross.jpg (http://www.lwskins.de.vu)
Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 11:50 AM
Tetrapack wrote:

- How were they able to recognize a rookie pilot in
- the air?

You suggesting that they didnt have "Ich bin ein rekrut" (I am a rookie-recruit) on their planes?

No wonder I cant find those guys in hyperlobby!

Seriously though, it's funny how people argue over things they 1.) didnt witness themselves, 2.) cannot change.

For those of you that like to argue moot points like the ones in this topic, remember this prayer:

God grant me the strength to change the things that I can, and accept the things that I cannot... and the wisdom to know the difference.

My guess is that some of you never heard this before. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Fehler

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:34 PM
Maxim you are a great patriot and sincere guy, maybe a future politician...

We all know that in former USSR all statistics was true
and there were no propaganda.

I doubt that also it's not true that Gunter Rall is a real NATO general.


Here is another example of "truth"

http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612325140

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:10 PM
NuFoerki wrote:
-

- boy thats ridiculous. you obviously have no clue
- what youre talking about. so why bother ----------------------------------------

-muahahaha, what a crap. is your life that lousy that youaren´t even ashamed to ridicule yourself in public?
are you 10?
or younger?

-yeah, he´s the complete opposite of you.
-war not over yet, huh?


These is just fluff. No facts no arguments. NuFoerki, go back to school or if you are in school take a debate class. Argument that like: "your ridicule yourself" isn't an argument.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:10 PM
damn wrong button lol, sorry guys!

And now at page 3 I read that all is allready said what I want to add- real feard that this thread would end terrible- I´m very surprised - It didn´t happend http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
I./Gruppe

http://www.jg53-pikas.de/
http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam.gif


Message Edited on 08/27/0303:39PM by Abbuzze

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:12 PM
Abuzze, anders überlegt? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:37 PM
wollte auch irgenwie mal erleben wie es ist wenn man zu früh kommt /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Wenn man sonst schon keine Gelegenheit dazu hat /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
I./Gruppe

http://www.jg53-pikas.de/
http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:52 PM
Fehler wrote:
-
- Tetrapack wrote:
-
-- How were they able to recognize a rookie pilot in
-- the air?

If you can't recognize rookie pilot, than you are rookie yourself.

Believe me, aces was able to tell which one have experience. You can tell it from the way aircraft is piloted. If the fight is in progress you can tell it from the tactics of your opponent. Finally, it is obvious that a wingman is less experienced etc.

When you start a fight with somebody and in a few second get couple of hard hits are you still wondering whether he's good or not?

It's true for online game. You merge and in half a minute realize that it's hard to get this guy. Solution is to get away. But who is afraid to be shot down in computer game?

Let me guess, you don't have too much experience in online fights, do you? And if you can't find me in the lobby, it doesn't mean I don't fly. Look for me on Russian servers. Good luck.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 03:10 PM
NuFoerki wrote:
-
- maxim26 wrote:
-- I should admit: theRealAntEater knows stuff
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
- yeah, he´s the complete opposite of you.
-
- war not over yet, huh?



Yeah, theRealAntEater knows stuff. He knows in details events of Battle for Stalingrad. And what I said was confirmed by him. Main point was after Battle for Stalingrad Luftwaffe lost air superiority, another point was that Luftwaffe failed to supply surrounded 6-th army. These are the facts. And the fact that Russians had radar to vector their fighters just confirms that initiative was on the Soviet side and Soviets didn't lose this initiative up to the victory day.

And you know nothing but how to flame. Decant right, go back to school and learn how to debate.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 03:39 PM
maxim26 wrote:

-
- Finally, it is
- obvious that a wingman is less experienced etc.
-

Yes, Erwin Fleig was in-experienced. This wingman of Molders had 66 'kill', not points.

Then there is the "Nowotny Schwam" with Schnorrer having 46 kills, not points, Dobele with 96 kills, not points, and Rademacher with 126 kills, not points.

Would not want to tangle with these 'rookie' wingmen./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hartmann was the wingman for Krupinski when assigned to 7./JG52 in Oct '42. On 5 Nov '42 he got his first 'kill', an Il-2. In April '43 after more than 100 missions he had only 7 'kills', not points. Was there no Russian aces around to take care of this 'noob' pilot? Oh yah, the only wingman Hartmann had shot down was an ex-bomber pilot late in the war.


Still waiting for you maxim to tell what were the 'mean' things I said about Pokrishkin.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 03:58 PM
Maxim, sorry but may I ask you
where do you come from, where do you living today (and how old are you)? Maybe the people here can understand you better when they have these informations and maybe we will have a better base to discuss.

Let me say this for this time:
the different system of scoring / kill(shotdown) -enough people explained it here (and that were not only germans!)- on the german side is a historical fact!
Believe it or let it, but that's the truth.
There are enough serious sources with different nationalities, which confirm it. I could tell you some but where's the use of it, when I must fear that you only will say "after war propaganda" again.
"After war propaganda"... ..., sorry (I can hardly believe it, you can't be serious!), but in which (old) world are you living? If your teachers in school told you such things, I must say " Sad, they made only use of you"!

On the few "bad sentences" in this thread here I make no comment!



Greats,
Motorsound

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 04:15 PM
maxim26 wrote:
--
-
- If you can't recognize rookie pilot, than you are
- rookie yourself.
-
- Believe me, aces was able to tell which one have
- experience. You can tell it from the way aircraft is
- piloted. If the fight is in progress you can tell it
- from the tactics of your opponent. Finally, it is
- obvious that a wingman is less experienced etc.


Nonsense Maxim./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

At the moment you're attacking fighters - let's think of a fighter formation below the attacker - there's no change to see who is rookie and who's ace, because of the fact of fix combat formations. Most victims never saw the attacker approach(<80%), so there's no time for the victim to show the satus of flying skill to the opponent.

As attacker you can maybe see the formation itself and think the guy guiding the pulk is the most experienced, but for the others is no guarantee which skills they own.

And Maxim, one of the biggest doctrins in fights on ground or in air is, to take 1st the enemy leader out of duty.



"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 04:20 PM
Motorsound, I'd like to make it clear. I ran into some article about geman score system. Author can be right or wrong. Many of you, guys, posted good facts and arguments. And now I really want to read some german sources on this topic. But other people started to flame. Sorry for being rough, but I cant stand flames like "I hate soviets" or russian pilots were dumb. Cold War is over and posts like this sound ridicules. More over everything was proved in 1945 when the fighter with red banner flew over Berlin. I have high respect to german nation. And many of them who fought in WWII were not nazis. the same as most of soviet people were not commies.

I'm not russian, I'm ukrainian. But during WWII we were one country and my grandfathers fought hand to hand. And the best fighter pilot of Allies - Kozhedub was ukrainian.

Funniest part of this situation is that on russian forums I have to protect ukrainian history as well.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 04:40 PM
maxim26 wrote:
-
- But other people
- started to flame. Sorry for being rough, but I cant
- stand flames like "I hate soviets" or russian pilots
- were dumb.


Where are those posts saying "I hate soviets" or "russian pilots were dumb"?

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 04:40 PM
KIMURA wrote:
- At the moment you're attacking fighters - let's
- think of a fighter formation below the attacker -
- there's no change to see who is rookie and who's
- ace, because of the fact of fix combat formations.
- Most victims never saw the attacker approach(<80%),
- so there's no time for the victim to show the satus
- of flying skill to the opponent.
-
- As attacker you can maybe see the formation itself
- and think the guy guiding the pulk is the most
- experienced, but for the others is no guarantee
- which skills they own.
-
- And Maxim, one of the biggest doctrins in fights on
- ground or in air is, to take 1st the enemy leader
- out of duty.

My original poin was not that gemant pilots attacked only rookies, but was that german pilots fought only having advantage. Tha attack of the formation, which is below attacher obviously attach with the advantage. rookie attack was just an axample.


- And Maxim, one of the biggest doctrins in fights on
- ground or in air is, to take 1st the enemy leader
- out of duty.

MiloMorai wrote:

- Hartmann was the wingman for Krupinski when assigned
- to 7./JG52 in Oct '42. On 5 Nov '42 he got his first
- 'kill', an Il-2. In April '43 after more than 100
- missions he had only 7 'kills', not points. Was
- there no Russian aces around to take care of this
- 'noob' pilot?


I guess that's the reason why Hartmann's wingmen scored sho highhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)))

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:00 PM
maxim26 wrote:

- Other thing. Did you ever think why score of german
- pilots differ so much from the score of other
- countries pilots. I'm not talking about Soviet
- Union. American aces have approximately the same
- score as Soviet of British.

Yes, I have thought about that and the reason is (at least with American and British pilots) that they served a specified tour of duty and were rotated out. There was a saying amoung LW pilots that they flew till they recieved "the Iron Cross or the wooden cross". That is, they flew till the end of the war or until they were killed. So, LW pilots flew hundreds of missions as opposed to American or British pilots who flew 25 or 30 missions. So, if they survived, LW pilot could certainly rack up very high scores.

- Nazi propaganda was really strong in that time.
- Let's don't forget what dictatorship is. Hitler's
- problem was to make germans fight.


And Stalin wasn't a dictator? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif And there was no such thing as Soviet propaganda? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Do you know how Stalin got his commanders to fight? They knew they faced a firing squad if they failed.

You accuse people here of not presenting evidence, even when they point you to sources. And then you say that such evidence can be made up as you said about the log books.
Yet this whole thread started with something posted on the internet by someone who only had partial understanding of the system and, therefore, didn't know what he was talking (writing) about. Not to mention that it was very much laced with propaganda. So are we simply supposed to unquestioningly take his word for it?

And just saying: "Well we won the war. So we're right and everything else is wrong." doesn't make it so. You may not like the fact that these guys shot down so many Soviet planes. I can understand that. But that doesn't mean it wasn't true.

BTW, as to the comment: "Who won the war? Hint: it wasn't the Americans". I certainly understand that the Soviets bore the brunt of the war in Europe in terms of taking up the fight and also the horrible toll it took on the population. It has been stated here, and I think quite rightly, that the Soviet effort in the east helped the fight for the Allies in the west (of course it could be said that the opposite was also true).

But keep in mind that while Americans commited sizable forces to the fight in Europe we were also fighting on a second front that spanned accross the entire expanse of the Pacific. Concider that before belittling the American effort in the war.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:14 PM
maxim26 wrote:
- If you can't recognize rookie pilot, than you are
- rookie yourself.

Kimura explained it very well.. the majority of the downed pilots did not know who hit them. Often the target of the surprise attacks were the last planes in a formation, usually the position of the inexperienced pilots.

- It's true for online game. You merge and in half a
- minute realize that it's hard to get this guy.
- Solution is to get away.

What you describe is correct for turn fighting, but this was (is in Il2/FB) not the usual attack methode of the experienced German fighter pilots. If you meet a pilot online in a German aircraft who strictly stays in BnZ attacks you know that he is experienced /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- But who is afraid to be
- shot down in computer game?

Fly online wars.. then you know it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Let me guess, you don't have too much experience in
- online fights, do you? And if you can't find me in
- the lobby, it doesn't mean I don't fly. Look for me
- on Russian servers. Good luck.

Well I'm flying VOW only, not on DF servers. I made 63 kills in 100 missions.. flying for the RUSSIAN side /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:29 PM
The allied invasion began on July 6th on 1944.
This is after the whole course of the war was pretty much determined by the Red Army.
Of course the American effort helped Red Army, but would the Red Army really stopped if the invasion didn't happen?
Most surely it wouldn't! It would've took so many lives of soviet people in addition to 20 million, bu no doubt Red Army would have been in Berlin no matter wat.

Americans were right in time to divide the spoils of war with very little of own blood.

Now, nobody contested the fact that Soviet propaganda was as bad as Nazi propaganda. (One difference is though, Soviets didn't start the war). The original poster disputed the correctness of recorded kills by germans. He didn't try to dispute the correctness of kill records of Soviets.
Your argument that german scoring sistem was accurate because soviet propaganda was as bad as nazi probaganda is flawed. There is no correlation between the correctenss of german scoring system and soviet propaganda. But THERE IS A CORRECATION between the german scoring system and nazi propaganda. One was drivent by onother.

Will be happy to listen to your arguments.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:30 PM
http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/art/authorphoto/cookie.jpg

'Smoke and a pancake?'

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:19 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
- The allied invasion began on July 6th on 1944.
- This is after the whole course of the war was pretty
- much determined by the Red Army.
- Of course the American effort helped Red Army, but
- would the Red Army really stopped if the invasion
- didn't happen?
- Most surely it wouldn't! It would've took so many
- lives of soviet people in addition to 20 million, bu
- no doubt Red Army would have been in Berlin no
- matter wat.

I'm sure they would have. But you should remember that the horrible cost of the war that the Soviets paid was due in great part to the fact that Stalin had decimated the Soviet armed forces during his paranoid mass-murdering purges (how many millions died that way?) So all that was left were inexperienced commanders who were paralyzed by fear of Stalin to adequately defend the country.

- Americans were right in time to divide the spoils of
- war with very little of own blood.

A) Americans were already fighting in N. Africa and Italy before the invasion began. Also, the air war in the west was going on before the invasion as well. Oh, did I mention the Pacific?
B) As to the amount of casualties, please see my comment above about the state of the Soviet military at the start of the war (BTW, this is not a **** on the Soviet military. Millions of Soviet men and women fought bravely for their country. Any shortcomings of the military were Stalin's fault.)
Also, we were an ocean away. Plenty of ppl here didn't even want to get involved at all. And maybe we didn't have to, but we did. And it was probably a good thing we were there to cut a deal with the Soviets and "divide the spoils of war". Otherwise more of Europe might have ended up under brutal oppressive communist regeimes.

- Now, nobody contested the fact that Soviet
- propaganda was as bad as Nazi propaganda. (One
- difference is though, Soviets didn't start the war).
- The original poster disputed the correctness of
- recorded kills by germans. He didn't try to dispute
- the correctness of kill records of Soviets.
- Your argument that german scoring sistem was
- accurate because soviet propaganda was as bad as
- nazi probaganda is flawed. There is no correlation
- between the correctenss of german scoring system and
- soviet propaganda.

This is not the basis of my argument at all. Therefore, your analysis of my argument is flawed. I did not state in any way, shape or form what you claim above. The comment was made that the high scores were driven by Nazi propaganda. It was simply my pointing out that the pot was calling the kettle "black". If we shouldn't believe the scores because of Nazi propaganda then why should we believe Soviet scores? Because the Soviets were the ones who were invaded, so their propaganda holds higher moral weight?

It is already well known around here that the LW scores, while they certainly cannot be said to be 100% accurate, are pretty close. This isn't pro-Naziism or anti-Sovietism. It's just trying to get an accurate picture of history whether it comes up with the results you like or not.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:23 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
- The allied invasion began on July 6th on 1944.
- This is after the whole course of the war was pretty
- much determined by the Red Army.


Is this more Soviet brainwashing? There was more than the just GPW or was that not taught in Soviet schools?

Ever hear of a places called North Afica (El Alimein(11.42) et al), Italy(Rome entered on 4.6.44), Morocco(8.42)? The 'western' Allies were fighting in these places and so occupied German soldiers that could have been fighting in the GPW. Be thankful they were not in Russia./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Or the SBC over Germany that kept German fighters from going east? It was something like 70% west, 30% east. Never mind the manpower required to repair the damaged caused by the SBC and lost production. Then there is SEA, PTO, CBI where US, UK, India, OZ, NZ troops were fighting. Should I mention the North Atlantic? The Soviets could not even help with the defence of the convoys to Murmansk and Archangel. Those seaman who had just risked their lives were virtually confined to their ships. A nice thank you.

Where was the CCCP in the fight against Japan? Oh yah, they showed up when the war was already won./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Another fact, the USA offered to send troops to the CCCP, but the offer was rejected.

- Of course the American effort helped Red Army, but
- would the Red Army really stopped if the invasion
- didn't happen?
- Most surely it wouldn't! It would've took so many
- lives of soviet people in addition to 20 million, but
- no doubt Red Army would have been in Berlin no
- matter what.
-
- Americans were right in time to divide the spoils of
- war with very little of own blood.
-

Considering the war material that the American supplied (arsenal of the world), even to the Soviet (who never repaid, unlike the Brits who did), they were quite justified in "getting some spoils of war".

Did you know that your truck factories, as were the trucks(originally) were designed in the 'west'.

What was the "USA" on American equipment said to mean to Russians > "Kill the sob Hitler" or something near to that. No mention that it was from the USA.

As for casualties, the 'western' Allies did not use their troops as cannon fodder, unlike another country./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif The 'western' Allies did not have to put PPShs to the backs of their soldiers and tell them to advance.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:35 PM
I believe that Hartmann shot over 300 planes. A Finnish ace shot over 90. It's because the Russians... they are so many... but the Russian planes were not of the best quality and I guess IL-2 gives a wee bit too good picture of them Lavochkins... And I believe axis had overall less pilots anyhow.

Besides, if he didn't shoot 300 planes down, why would he mark them in his plane? ...or something...

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:40 PM
Not only that Lukki, why did the Soviets put Hartmann in prison for 10 years? Must be 'some'/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif truth to his claim of 352 Soviet a/c, being released gaunt and haggard. To me, that means he was mis-treated.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:50 PM
The Red Army you are talking about here is the army before 1943. Yes indeed, Stalin killed the cream of the crop of Russian military intellect. Yes indeed, ordinary soldier was treated as not depletable resource (the whole battalions perished as a result of "recommence by fire" when the last thing you see is a wall of steel). But in 1943 Red Army is a completely different from what it was in the beginning of 40s. It reformed and reconstructed itself turning into formidable force. So by the time the second front was open experienced and well supplied Soviet troops needed no help from the West. And all the lend-lease weapons and goods that were shipped to Soviet Union were just a drop in the sea that, as I said before, did help but WOULDN'T CHANGE THE COURSE OF THE WAR.

I'm not trying to diminish or ignore the heroism of American soldiers that fought in WWII. It's just that this thread was directed from the topic of scoring system to personal attacks by some who ridicule Soviet pilots.


I'm not trying to establish that Soviet scoring system was accurate or not. It might have not been accurate at all. I have doubts that German scoring system is accurate and so far I haven't seen a single worthy argument that it was.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:55 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
-
-
- It's just
- that this thread was directed from the topic of
- scoring system to personal attacks by some who
- ridicule Soviet pilots.
-
-

Point out that ridicule.

Who was calling the scores of Germans pilots lies?



http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 07:58 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- Desant_CCCP wrote:
-- The allied invasion began on July 6th on 1944.
-- This is after the whole course of the war was pretty
-- much determined by the Red Army.
-
-
- Is this more Soviet brainwashing? There was more
- than the just GPW or was that not taught in Soviet
- schools?
-
- Ever hear of a places called North Afica (El
- Alimein(11.42) et al), Italy(Rome entered on
- 4.6.44), Morocco(8.42)? The 'western' Allies were
- fighting in these places and so occupied German
- soldiers that could have been fighting in the GPW.
- Be thankful they were not in Russia./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Or the SBC over Germany that
- kept German fighters from going east? It was
- something like 70% west, 30% east. Never mind the
- manpower required to repair the damaged caused by
- the SBC and lost production. Then there is SEA, PTO,
- CBI where US, UK, India, OZ, NZ troops were
- fighting. Should I mention the North Atlantic? The
- Soviets could not even help with the defence of the
- convoys to Murmansk and Archangel. Those seaman who
- had just risked their lives were virtually confined
- to their ships. A nice thank you.
-
-
- Where was the CCCP in the fight against Japan? Oh
- yah, they showed up when the war was already
- won.<

thats not quite right, CCCP fought against Japan long before
the Americans did. in 1939 along the Manchukuo- mongolian border. look it up.
by the way, that is a real forgotten battle. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<ceter>http://www.boners.com/content/788238.1.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:02 PM
Lukki wrote:
-
- Besides, if he didn't shoot 300 planes down, why
- would he mark them in his plane? ...or something...

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know he had kill markings on his plane. That's a definite proof that he actually got all his 300 kills.

The same goes to the log books. Log book is accounting. Any auditor would look for the source documentation to verify postings in the ledger (your log book).

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:09 PM
Yes I know fjuff, and the Japanese were soundly beaten./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Japan was not at war with the USA at the time./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif The point was the CCCP did not help the 'western' Allies in the war against Japan until the 'western' Allies (mostly Americans) had Japan 'on the ropes' at 'count 9 of 10'.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:11 PM
You're full of it.
Points (what you call victories) were awarded for the purpose of gaining medals, that's all. Kills are still kills, and the scores they chalked up were genuine. Ask Gunter Rall. As he put it, "We always had targets, and we served from the beginning to the end unless injuries or death prevented it.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:13 PM
maxim26 wrote:
- I have to disagree with you. Kill is kill was not
- true. Soviet Union was very bureaucratic with no
- trust to individuals. Pilot had a kill in his record
- only if ground troops confirm that aircraft crashed
- and other pilots confirm the kill as well. The kill
- confirmed from one source was not recorded

And the Russians shot down at least tripple the amount planes that Finns had /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .well Soviet Union needed its heroes
-just saying-

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:22 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Yes I know fjuff, and the Japanese were soundly
- beaten./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Japan was not at war
- with the USA at the time./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif The point was the CCCP did not
- help the 'western' Allies in the war against Japan
- until the 'western' Allies (mostly Americans) had
- Japan 'on the ropes' at 'count 9 of 10'.
-
that I agree on,



<ceter>http://www.boners.com/content/788238.1.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:25 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
-

-
- Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know he had kill markings on
- his plane. That's a definite proof that he actually
- got all his 300 kills.
-
-

So Soviet aces like Kostylev, Shchipov, Grigor'yev, Orekhov, Popkov, Kozhedud, Dolgushin, Vybornov, Pokryshev, Sauvage, Rechkalov, Kuznetsov, Kostylev, Zyuzin, Sirotin, Polryshkin, should not be believed either since they also had 'kill' tallies marked on their a/c./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:26 PM
Wargull wrote:
-
- And the Russians shot down at least tripple the
- amount planes that Finns had well Soviet Union needed its
- heroes
--just saying-
-
-

Yes Soviet Union needed its heroes, and it had plenty of them. Ever heard of Brest Frotress. It stood up for 40 days till the last defender died from the flames of German flame-thrower or starved to death.

Read about heroes of besieged Leningrad when 2 million civilians preferred death instead of bending over for the Germans like Romanians and Finns did.

Read about Pomfilov's boys. Twenty-five of them destroyed 50 German tanks that were thrusting toward Moscow's gates.

All this I learned not from Russian sources, as you and I wouldn't trust them. I picked up a copy of PBS (American public broadcasting company) documentary called "Russian War: Blood Upon the Snow". This is done by American historians.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:31 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
-
-
- Yes Soviet Union needed its heroes, and it had
- plenty of them. Ever heard of Brest Frotress. It
- stood up for 40 days till the last defender died
- from the flames of German flame-thrower or starved
- to death.
-

Ever hear of Corregidor or Tobruk?

-
- Read about Pomfilov's boys. Twenty-five of them
- destroyed 50 German tanks that were thrusting toward
- Moscow's gates.
-
-

Ah, so the Germans learned from the Russians to use 'boys'.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg


Message Edited on 08/27/0303:31PM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:36 PM
Please girls, this thread is done, let it sink.

"Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty but the pig enjoys it!"

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:39 PM
Greetings-Just got out my old copy of "Horrido" By Col. Raymond Toliver and Trevor Constable. These men spent 20 years reseaching German Pilots and their claims of kills. They found that the kills awarded to German Pilots were the most thoroughly documented of any Nation involved in WW2.Col. Toliver was an American fighter pilot himself and in the beginning was skeptical of German claims. He came away utterly convinced that the German claims were true.He also became a great admirer of the"inner Spirit" of the German Luftwaffe. With rare exception, Rudel for instance, This had absolutely nothing to do with politics. These men were flying for their country. Just as the Airmen of other nations were doing.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:41 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- Ah, so the Germans learned from the Russians to use
- 'boys'.
-

The boys where 18 years old-- the drafting age in Russia till today. To me at 18 you are still a boy. Your are not going to desecrate the memory of proud people who disagreed to provide "leaving space" to Nazi.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:44 PM
prozac70 wrote:
- Greetings-Just got out my old copy of "Horrido" By
- Col. Raymond Toliver and Trevor Constable. These men
- spent 20 years reseaching German Pilots and their
- claims of kills. They found that the kills awarded
- to German Pilots were the most thoroughly documented
- of any Nation involved in WW2.Col. Toliver was an
- American fighter pilot himself and in the beginning
- was skeptical of German claims. He came away utterly
- convinced that the German claims were true.He also
- became a great admirer of the"inner Spirit" of the
- German Luftwaffe. With rare exception, Rudel for
- instance, This had absolutely nothing to do with
- politics. These men were flying for their country.
- Just as the Airmen of other nations were doing.
-
-

I'll pick this book up. thanks

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:57 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- Ever hear of Corregidor or Tobruk?
-
As a matter of fact I did. And I never said that Americans were cowards. All I said is that Congress send troops to invade Europe in order to gain control and divide power. Americans didn't need war in Europe, they had their hands full in the Pacific.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:29 PM
Regarding Kills; I think there is something interesting.
Those nations whose airmen overclaimed the most were Italy and Japan. This does not mean their pilots were less brave or liars, but it is a fact.
Both nations share a comonality. The "air victory" was not seen as important. There was no official confirmation of air victories by any staff.
For example, the italian squadrons on the east front only recorded victories for the entire unit, not for individual pilots. The Japanese did quite the same. Of course each pilot kept his private count, but there was no bureaucracy that checked claims, like in Germany, Britain or the USSR. An italian or japanese unit reported an air combat and gave own losses and an approximation of enemy losses. Much like the commander of an infantry unit will try to estimate enemy losses after beating back an enemy assault, for example.
And Japanese and Italians often overclaimed in the magnitude of 10:1. It became better with the italians later (especially for the ANR, which was really good), but the japanese carried on with that until 1945. If you look at the claims of the 343rd Air Group alone, they overclaimed in the magnitude of 5:1 at least. And you can't blame it on radio, because the 343rds N1K2-J "Georges" were equipped with radios of good quality.
Of course it played a big role that both of these nations did not have proper radios either, like soviets in 1941.
But generally, I think a pilot will be much more accurate in observing his victory when he is rewarded for it than if it is just a statistic. And it is pretty obvious that italian claim accuracy became better the very moment they started using the same kill confirmation procedure as the germans in 1943.
Normally, you'd think that getting medals and other rewards for planes should down would lead to more overclaiming, but it seems the other way round.

http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:50 PM
pik_as wrote:
- You're full of it.
- Points (what you call victories) were awarded for
- the purpose of gaining medals, that's all. Kills are
- still kills, and the scores they chalked up were
- genuine. Ask Gunter Rall. As he put it, "We always
- had targets, and we served from the beginning to the
- end unless injuries or death prevented it.
-
-

That's another master debater. Ones again statement such as "you're full of it" are not arguments, but meaningless fluff.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:05 PM
You 2 are good entertainment - real comedians.

Since you were "tooting your own horn", I thought I would put in some Allied defences./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


I have seen that ~77,000 Soviet a/c were destroyed in the GPW, of these ~45,000 by the Jagdwaffe. Since you do not believe the jagdflieger's 'kill' tally because they were liars, care to explain the loss number? Were Soviet pilots that bad, they crashed all those a/c?

Still waiting to read what you have to say for the Soviet aces listed in a previous post who had 'kill' tallies on their a/c. Since you don't believe the 'kill' tallies on German a/c, why should anyone believe your Soviet aces?

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:30 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- You 2 are good entertainment - real comedians.
-

Really mature. If you are trying to pi## me off by your introductory remarks, don't bother. Glad you find me funny.
But next time limit youself just to the argument and leave the "clown" stuff for you gilfriend.

- Since you were "tooting your own horn", I thought I
- would put in some Allied defences./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-
- I have seen that ~77,000 Soviet a/c were destroyed
- in the GPW, of these ~45,000 by the Jagdwaffe. Since
- you do not believe the jagdflieger's 'kill' tally
- because they were liars, care to explain the loss
- number? Were Soviet pilots that bad, they crashed
- all those a/c?

Don't have hard numbers, but I will research and get it. But thousands of Soviet A/Cs were destroyed on the ground, as USSR weren't prepared for the war in 1941. This should raise bommer pilot's tally, but such statistics is impossible.



-
- Still waiting to read what you have to say for the
- Soviet aces listed in a previous post who had 'kill'
- tallies on their a/c. Since you don't believe the
- 'kill' tallies on German a/c, why should anyone
- believe your Soviet aces?

Ones again and for the last time: THE POST DID NOT RAISE THE QUESTION OF SOVIET KILLS ACCURACY. If you want contest that, please, start your thread. Okey, let's say I don't believe in Soviet scores either. Let's say that 50% of that was lies. How does it change the question of German score system accuracy? Do explain. These two questions ARE NOT CORRELATED.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:41 PM
What in god's name are you two smoking? You have been shown facts and figures and you call them lies.You are the ones that started calling names when people tried to politely(in the start of this thread) explain the truth.You have called people nazi's and nazi lovers because they presented facts you don't like.No one said anything about soviet flyers or soldiers until you started to disparage allied ones.Debating is not calling someone a liar.It involves stating your case and presenting facts.You have presented "one" source that has many errors in it and now you are into personal attacks.I had one friend that was a moscow cab driver(that's all he was allowed to do because he was jewish).He left his wife and child to get out of "hell" as he called it.This is the late 70's,I can't imagine what living under stalin would have been like.He did say that moscow had the most beautiful women in the world.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 12:22 AM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
- [...]


It is a fact that the German fighters claimed a total of 8,501 Soviet aircraft shot down in 1944, while Soviet loss statistics show that 10,400 Soviet aircraft were lost in combat during the same year.

Not much overclaiming there, is it?

Explain that, please.


http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg


Message Edited on 08/27/0304:22PM by cuski

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 12:54 AM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
Read about heroes of besieged Leningrad when 2
- million civilians preferred death instead of bending
- over for the Germans like Romanians and Finns did.

OK DUDE YOU'RE PI$$ING ME OFF!!!
And when did Romanians and Finns bended over for the germans???
Both Romanians and Finns, entered the war along the AXIS just for the purpose of gaining back teritories that you pi$$ing $hits tooked by force!!!!
Yeah, right the the Red Army, decided the war, the Us and Brits had no importance!!!
Daily raids with thousand of bombers, over Germany, Hungary, Romania, had nothing to do with weakening their strengh!!!
What would the Red Army would have done if all the LW and ground troops that were fighting in the west, would have comed to east??
I would like to se the ruskies fighting over the Carpathians, on Romanian and Hungarian soil!!!
If you don't know any history, then don't make one!!!
Go back to bed before your mamy come and beat you with the votka botle you're drinkin' from!.
A$$hat.

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 03:08 AM
Von Zero, what the clown does not seem to know is that the Russians were the aggressers in the 2 Finnish wars./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Here is a link he should read

http://www.wargamer.com/rtm/contwar.htm


He also seemed to miss what I said, like you, about the air war and the ground war in the west that occupied ontold numbers of Germans that could have been used in the east. Or the German troops that went to the Balkans to help Italy, instead of being in Barbarrosa.


Clown don't tell me wife about the girlfriend./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif You brought Russian aces and their claims into the tread, so is a legit topic.


The Russian were prepared enough to invade Poland in Sept '39, which resulted in the butchering of 2-3000 Polish officers, and attack Finland./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 03:21 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Von Zero, what the clown does not seem to know is
- that the Russians were the aggressers in the 2
- Finnish wars./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- Here is a link he should read
-
- <a href="http://www.wargamer.com/rtm/contwar.htm"
- target=_blank>http://www.wargamer.com/rtm/contwar.
- htm</a>
-
-
-
- He also seemed to miss what I said, like you, about
- the air war and the ground war in the west that
- occupied ontold numbers of Germans that could have
- been used in the east. Or the German troops that
- went to the Balkans to help Italy, instead of being
- in Barbarrosa.
-
-
- Clown don't tell me wife about the girlfriend./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif You brought Russian aces and
- their claims into the tread, so is a legit topic.
-
-
- The Russian were prepared enough to invade Poland in
- Sept '39, which resulted in the butchering of 2-3000
- Polish officers, and attack Finland./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-
-
-
<img
- src="http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-s
- tormclouds2.jpg">
-

UR right Milo, it has no use arguying this clown, he doesn't seem to accepte the facts as they were.
Desant, you stated before that this thread isn't about soviet pilots, so you confirm what me and turenne previously said that is wrong to flame the soviets, but is corect to flame the germans.
Please first learn some history before posting the idiocrities you know.

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 04:13 AM
Von_Zero wrote:
- And when did Romanians and Finns bended over for the
- germans???
- Both Romanians and Finns, entered the war along the
- AXIS just for the purpose of gaining back teritories
- that you pi$$ing $hits tooked by force!!!!


Oh, and how is it called when one accepts terms of the other in order to get something from the other because one can't do it himself? It can be described by bending over.


Hey there history buff. Germans equiped Romanian units with outdated captured in Poland and Chekoslovakia equipment. They put Romanian units in the front line to take the first hits. Romanians began to surrender first at Stalingrad (Germans lasted far far longer).

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 04:20 AM
Von_Zero wrote:

-
- I would like to se the ruskies fighting over the
- Carpathians, on Romanian and Hungarian soil!!!
-
- If you don't know any history, then don't make
- one!!!
-

First if you gonna use Russian word, ruskie is plural, ruskiy is singular. There's no such workd in Russian language as ruskies. So please, nex time just say Russians.

Second Ruskie did fight over the Carpathians, on Romanian and Hungarian soil the last World War. They went all the way to Berlin, remember? I guess not.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 05:09 AM
Desant_CCCP wrote:


- Second Ruskie did fight over the Carpathians, on
- Romanian and Hungarian soil the last World War. They
- went all the way to Berlin, remember? I guess not.


Whats all that I hear about the barbarity displayed by the Soviets in Berlin, mass rapes and all that? Is that true.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 05:49 AM
Anyone know where Issy and Huckie are hiding?

One would think that with the jagdfliegers being called liars they would be here defending the honour of the jagdfliegers of their beloved Third Reich?


ps to the Red Banner waver.

This is an English language forum. In English it is ruskies./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/grinnell-therewent10-2.jpg


Message Edited on 08/28/0301:08AM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 07:29 AM
Desant,
Who learned you history? Japanese teacher?(no offence for the japanese ppl here..)
Actualy, ruskies, fought on Romanian and hungarian(czech...etc) togehther with romanian troops, and got to the carpathians, only cuz king Mihai I changed sides (and stabed the germans in the back), and so the ruskies gained a high strategical position, along with the efect of surprise achieved to the axis troops.
Yeah, call us cheathers, traitors, that I'l accept, cuz that is what we did, BUT I WILL NOT ACCEPT TO MODIFY MY COUNTRY HISTORY AFTER YOUR WILL.
After the war, ALIED sources stated that 23 august 1944, shorted the war with "AT LEAST" 300 days.
Who knows how much could have been in reality?
Yes the romanian troops cracked firt at Stalingrad, but if you would be so kind to research a little and see the conditins you would be quite surprised.

you seem to have some discrepances in your vocabulary.
Romanians and finns didn't bended over for the germans.
Romanians, Italians, Hungarians, Finns, Japan were SEPARATE parts of the axis, and ALIED with Germany.
Romania was under no circumstances bedned over to Germany, If you woiuld now a little history, you would probably know that Antonescu, was the Third man in the Axis, after Hitler and Mussolini, and had a very hard to influence personality, that many times Hitler was forced to listen to Antonescu intead imposing his stupid ideeas.
If what I'm saying is not justifieing your words, then URSS also bended over for the Brits and US, right....?
After the war, rusian sources apreciated as " very high, even imposible to evoid" the cracking of the red army and the iminent axis victory without the substantial help of the western alies.
Look dude me, Milo, RealAntEater.... tried to convice you to give up, but You are *imposible*.
Why can't you accept the history as it is?
You said we don't present fact, well we presented facts, now would you be so kind and present your apologies and acept your surrender??
To make it short,... dude you chosed the wrong persons to argue with, so quit it.


<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

Message Edited on 08/28/0309:33AM by Von_Zero

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 08:37 AM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
- So and did he shoot him down? I guess not, because
- Pokrishkin kept on flying and shooting Nazi planes
- down. If Sachsenberg really said so he is a braging
- fool. Pokrishkin could say the saime to him as well.
- "Pokrishkin in the air" is not a propaganda. Your
- argument: Geramns didn't record suca a statement is
- flawed. Why would they admit that. The fact that
- German "free hunting" aces avoided Soviet aces is
- documented in memoirs of many WWII pilots.

I think too that didn't propaganda.
But many germans wish it. Because of otherwise theirs imagination about 'good old german super heros' would be damage. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 09:03 AM
Please tell me how to avoid contact with a V-VS ace. Such statements are just silly./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif That would mean whole Jagdgeschwader would had avoid confrontation to their Soviet counterparts. In that case a case for a German court-martial that results in death punishment for German flying leaders./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 10:11 AM
This thread was concieved with boring ideas, and is going down the crapper even faster.

You cant re-write history, even though some people obviously try. It speaks for itself. Germany lost the war, and we can all be glad for that. But that does not mean that there werent good men that fought for Germany. In their day, Germany had probably the finest army, airforce, and navy in the world. They were well trained, and well equipped. Perhaps that is why it took a large portion of the world to defeat them. I doubt that any of the allied countries could have defeated Germany by themselves, and if they could, I seriously doubt they could have done it by 1945 without the help of other nations. Without Great Britain and the US bombing Germany's factories around the clock, could the Soviet Union defeated Germany by themselves? Without the opening of a second front, and the resources that were tied up fighting the Soviet Union, could Great Britain have defeated Germany by themselves? Even the U.S. with the mass production and resources they had during that era would have had serious logistical problems bringing their guns to bear on a country half a globe away without the help of the Brits. But again, isnt that a moot point? History happened the way it happened, and (Hopefully) we all live our lives better from the outcome.

But back to the topic this thread was initially designed to talk about. The scoring system versus actual kills of top German pilots. Seriously, who cares? Oh my God, if Hartmann didnt kill all the planes he was given credit for then... History would be different? Your life would be different? I think not. So who cares?

If the original poster wants to believe whatever he read, who cares. If he wants to put square tires on his car because he thinks it's necessary to re-invent the wheel, who cares. If he wants to believe that I am a Nazi because I like to fly German in a game designed 60 years after the fact, who cares. (For the record though, I fly German because their planes are just much cooler looking than the crates flown by the VVS - My Opinion - and you should not care either)

But when these posts turn to direct verbal attacks on ones character, then someone (The moderators) should care. If I were moderator, I would have locked this thread a long time ago, or better yet moved it into a new forum I would call "Useless rantings by idiots" Forum.

But hey.. Perhaps I am an idiot too since I posted in this thread. Oh well, who cares! LOL

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 10:51 AM
My Info is JG25 shoot down ca. 10.000 enemy planes and lost only ca. 700 pilots.

http://trombke.bei.t-online.de/ossi_sign2.jpg.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:04 AM
...... at times of war both sides use propaganda to keep the moral of the fighting forces.

You want some "official" statments of Mr.Joseph Goebbels (Reichspropagandaminister) concerning the Red Army, their material, moral and losses ? You won't believe it. Its close to your bullsh*t thread....but the other way around !

The winners rule, always, even 60 years later, and they dont care about the facts.

It still makes me pensive that it was necessary to confederate the all world to defeat this rookie killers....
Well, you should have better sent the aces, years before so millions of lifes could be saved.

But the winners rule, always, and they dont care about moral.


I only trust in statistics that I personally forged. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Kind regards,

Lt.Black Hussar
III/StG2

www.stukageschwader2.de (http://www.stukageschwader2.de)

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:28 AM
The reply to original post.
I've been reading lately a lot about the Russian pilots
who fought during the world war2.
Dude it seems you are correct on German counting sistem
and propoganda.
The last interview I red it was about Eremin B.N who
fought from the beginning to the end of war.He flew Yaks.
The interview was taken in 1990.
He says "The Germans had diffirent counting sistem.If they
get an enemy plne in their gun camera they write a kill.
They even did count the number of engines.Two engines =
two kills.That's where they were getting such unrealistic
numbers"...
"We had a very unusual meeting after the war.The General
Tarasenko set up such a meeting in Germany with the
German aces.There were six of us.Zimin,Skomorohin,
Treschev,me and some one else.There is such a club of aces
in Munich.The meeting was interesting.I thought in the
beginnig .Who was that animal who shut me down?! Any way
the meeting was great.We wre asking about Stalingrad,About
their tactics about the kills.The Germans said "It was
easy in the beginning but later you got us.The Germans
aces told us about their counting sistem of kills".Which
was described above by Eremin B.N
A lot of Russian fighter pilots say same thing.They were
usually beaten up in 1941 but later they had absolutly no
problem to fight the Germans.
So I believe the Germans overclaimed their kills.And I
believe Hartmann had 60-80 kills no more than that

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:41 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Anyone know where Issy and Huckie are hiding?
-
- One would think that with the jagdfliegers being
- called liars they would be here defending the honour
- of the jagdfliegers of their beloved Third Reich?
-
-
- ps to the Red Banner waver.
-
- This is an English language forum. In English it is
- ruskies./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- <img
- src="http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/grinnell-t
- herewent10-2.jpg">
-
-
- Message Edited on 08/28/03 01:08AM by MiloMorai

Moran!!!
In english it is Russians.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 12:11 PM
Oh, oh, a 3rd waver of the Red Banner./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fyi, "ruskie" is >>>SLANG<<<, just like "ivan' is for 'Russians'. Even 'Russian' is slang since not all the people in the USSR are from the state of Russia. But then Russians think themselves superior to all the other people in the USSR.

And you 'ace' is full of it on the German 'kills'. This has been explained several times already in this thread.

That insult is a banning offence, if I PMed a Mod to complain. But you are not worth the time to do so./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Gustoy wrote:
-
-
-
- Moran!!!
-
- In english it is Russians.
-
-
-



http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/grinnell-therewent10-2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 01:13 PM
Did any of you all knowing specialists ever have an original file (not a book) in his hands, which prooves anything you are talking about in this thread?

The Nazis and the soviets wrote down everything, every single spot. So there must have been lists where you could see for example:

19.3.1944 - 4-mot Bomber: 1 - 4 Points - 1 Kill

At the end of the list something like: 248 Points - 196 Kills


But all you are talking about is: "he told me" and "there I read" but no one has prooves any court would accept.


So, the whole discussion can be named: kindergarden!, sorry.


Splindy

Message Edited on 08/28/0302:13PM by splindy

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 01:18 PM
Is it true?
Some people here are believing, that the USSR also would have been in Berlin without England and USA at the westfront? Sorry, /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif !

The scoring / kill(downshoot) -system of the germans: I think there are enough international sources, which confirm this system, enough people have explained here. I told it before and I repeat it: "it is a historical fact"!

And ... sorry, but for an other system, so that I should think about it, I have read not only one proof, one fact here!
Only believing, thinking, here an interview, there an interview (with anyone) and then maybe an old USSR-book..., ..., ... and allways "No" to all the proofes and facts the other members have provided.

What shall I say about it, what shall I think about some people here (Hartmann with 60 hits! Oh man...! Also you can read bedstorys for your little kids; no difference!)? I'm very thinkfull, because normaly you should laugh about yourself.



Greats,
Motorsound

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 01:32 PM
Von_Zero wrote:
- Desant,
- Who learned you history? Japanese teacher?(no
- offence for the japanese ppl here..)

Who learned my history? I did! But someone had to teach it to me, an it wasn't a Japanese teacher (I wouldn't mind though, Japan has pretty good educational system.)


- Yes the romanian troops cracked firt at Stalingrad,
- but if you would be so kind to research a little
- and see the conditins you would be quite surprised.
-
Enlighten me, what were those conditions?


-- Romania was under no circumstances bedned over to
- Germany, If you woiuld now a little history, you
- would probably know that Antonescu, was the Third
- man in the Axis, after Hitler and Mussolini, and had
- a very hard to influence personality, that many
- times Hitler was forced to listen to Antonescu
- intead imposing his stupid ideeas.
-
Mussolini as well as Antonescu was marionette in the Hitler's play. Nobody listened to them! Hitler rarely listened to his generals, which were much smarter.
C'mon people

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 01:45 PM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
- Desant_CCCP wrote:
-
-
-- Second Ruskie did fight over the Carpathians, on
-- Romanian and Hungarian soil the last World War. They
-- went all the way to Berlin, remember? I guess not.
-
-
- Whats all that I hear about the barbarity displayed
- by the Soviets in Berlin, mass rapes and all that?
- Is that true.
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp

Well, then I should mention Allied bombardments of German cities.
Dresden, for example, didn't have any strategic targets: no important plants, no military targets. And yet, it was reduced to rubble. Many vets remember when they entered Dresden the fist thing that struck them was strong smell of rotten human flash over the city.
Don't even start me on atomic attack on Japan. Many generations of survivors are scarred.

So it wasn't smart to start on atrocities I think.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 01:47 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
- The allied invasion began on July 6th on 1944.
- This is after the whole course of the war was pretty
- much determined by the Red Army.

Agree !

- Of course the American effort helped Red Army, but
- would the Red Army really stopped if the invasion
- didn't happen?
- Most surely it wouldn't! It would've took so many
- lives of soviet people in addition to 20 million, bu
- no doubt Red Army would have been in Berlin no
- matter wat.

Agree on that too. But never forget that althoiugh the germans have got their nose broken first at moscow, then an arm twisted at stalingrad and their guts ripped at kursk you should never underestimate the fact that Allied Bomber command
a) bombed oilfields in rumania
b) hit Engine factories in Germany,
c) pretty much devastated infrastructure midst in germany
d) devastated other important factories (or why'd ya think there were so few Panthers at Kursk and afterwards..)
e) the whole partisan war was a much bloodier affair at the eastern front as a lot of trains were sabotaged (I have even records of an FW190 pilot complaining in 45 that his FW was sabotaged in poland. (he found sand in the engines oil..)

These factors largely contributed to russian victory which I hold in high respect.

- Americans were right in time to divide the spoils of
- war with very little of own blood.
Never forget that the war is named WORLD WAR and not european war. It's because there was pretty much action in the pacific and african theatre too.
Western-allies pretty much ensured that Germany couldn't get the countries of north africa (and all these small countries along russian border which nowadays are famous for all kind of terrorists....) as the germans were losing control of north africa and other countries which were allied with the axis forces (turkey for example) didn't want to risk the full wraith of the russian bear http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


- Now, nobody contested the fact that Soviet
- propaganda was as bad as Nazi propaganda. (One
- difference is though, Soviets didn't start the war).

Which is a JOKE !
I don't want to offend the general russian as I most people are not responsible for the decisions of the government.
In case of russia let's see.

Remember the treaty between Hitler and Stalin ? Done by Ribbentrop ?
What did it say ? It divided Poland in between Germany and russia. Directly after germany started the war out of nowwhere the "PORTECTOR and HELPER" arrived and seized half of poland. Next step was to take all officers and leading intelligence into prison, kill them eitherin siberia or Katyn (Lwow anyone ?) and then claim the grounds. Rest of the citizens were forced to live like cattle in siberia and to die. So please don't tell me "Russia DIDN'T start the war".
Russia or rather the soviet union was in the good position that it was betrayed by germany and therefore changed sides.
The outcome is well known.
No doubt russia and it's citizens have suffered. they have lost a great deal of brave men being used by their government to die for their country (za rodina, za stalina, idom w pierot...) BUT PLEASE ! do not tell me they didn't start the war. To start a war you don't have to be actually the first to shoot a bullet.

Now that went off topic and I apologise but saying "Soviets didn't start the war" is as good propaganda as saying "poland started the war"...

Propaganda was strong on both sides though and facts are twisted if they need to fit...

Dosvidanje

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 02:05 PM
Gustoy wrote:
......
- problem to fight the Germans.
-
- So I believe the Germans overclaimed their
- kills.And I
-
- believe Hartmann had 60-80 kills no more than that
-


Then Hartmann was a real stupid idiot of a fighterpilot with 60 Kills in around 1200 missions... Hartmanns kills/mission are not that good, even with 352 kills... take a russian/US/GB ace and their Kills/mission, then multiplicate this with Hartmanns number of mission and we will discuss again...

EDIT: Sorry my mistake 1400 missions not 1200...

JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
I./Gruppe

http://www.jg53-pikas.de/
http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam.gif


Message Edited on 08/28/0304:29PM by Abbuzze

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 02:08 PM
JaBo_HH--Gotcha wrote:
- Desant_CCCP wrote:

-
- Remember the treaty between Hitler and Stalin ? Done
- by Ribbentrop ?

Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement was a nonaggression agreement. Stalin needed free hands to solve "internal" problems. After he actually lost elections to Kirov and then forged the results and killed almost all assembly of the communist party that voted he got really paranoid and got busy killing military and engineering intellect. Now, why would he do that if he planned assault on the west?

Please read "History of World War II" by Henry Basil, and Liddell Hart (British authors). It's now available at amazon.com for $16

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 02:27 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:

- Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement was a nonaggression
- agreement.

Yeah right. I t was for evading two war on two fronts as poland was allied with france and england and during these days the soviet union was observing the outcome whether the soviet union would be added to the "anti-fascist"-alliance or not.


Stalin needed free hands to solve "internal" problems. (yeah killing own people and fighting the japs in the kuriles)

It's real coincidence that SHORTLY after germans dropped the bombs on poland the russians appeared as saviors eh ?

And still you evaded the topics...

Again, the war was won by the allies together. Depending on the situation one side suffered more or less, but fact remains that Russia/Soviet union was trigger happy and ready to strike and then you come along and say "Soviet union didn't start the war".

It got betrayed, could change sides and thus was winner. That's right ! I wont deny that. They had brave and capable soldiers under a bad leadership (no wonder, since the capable guys went down the gulag..).

I highly respect the pride of russians. But you MUST NOT FORGET you're the only one with pride.
It was a good thing that the soviet union helped to crush the nazis (even if forced too) but the government was really really trigger happy. The fact that you don't answer on the above mentioned stuff like "katyn", "lwow" and the siberia issue is really striking...
Panyal ?

I can advertise several history books for you too.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 03:27 PM
Gustoy wrote:
There is such a club of aces in Munich.The meeting was interesting.

oh well,i am from munich.
so please let me know the adress of this club .
then i can prove it myself /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .
or some names of these so called german aces .
with the help of an former Oberstleutnant i can check it out.


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 03:44 PM
Hehe-What a crock of B.S. Dream on.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 04:02 PM
the real reason of, who won the war for the allies , is Hitler him self,
and his insane strategic fighting decishions and moves, and his missusage of the german army,


<ceter>http://www.boners.com/content/789408.1.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 04:52 PM
SkyChimp,

Yes it is true. It is pretty sad the price that many civillians pay when they are invaded.

My Dad's friend was raped by the russians when they were still living in Germany.

lil'

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 05:06 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
- Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement was a nonaggression
- agreement. Stalin needed free hands to solve
- "internal" problems. After he actually lost
- elections to Kirov and then forged the results and
- killed almost all assembly of the communist party
- that voted he got really paranoid and got busy
- killing military and engineering intellect. Now, why
- would he do that if he planned assault on the west?
-

True, but the main reason of the agreement between the USSR and Germany was that the countries which would later become the western allies refused to ally with the soviets against Germany and dreamed of a German/Soviet war for which the soviets were not ready. Today, everyone seems to have forgotten the fact the soviets proposed a joint intervention against Germany and that the Western countries sacrified Czecoslovakia rather than accepting it (Poland, the great "victim" of the German/Soviet agreement even took its part of the country (including the city of Memel).

After a last agreement proposal was refused by Britain and France in early 1939 (in february, I think, Stalin who wanted to avoid at all costs a war with both sides (the democracies and the right-wing dictatorships) replaced Litvinov by Molotov (because Litvinov was refused as a negociator by the germans because he was the one who had led the so far anti-nazi policy of the USSR, and because he was jewish) and sought an agreement with Hitler.

The soviet aggressive policy towards countries like Poland, Romania (from which parts of territory were taken, at the same time, by Hungary with the approval of Germany, a fact nobody seems to remember), and Finland in 1939/1940 can be explained by Stalin's will to get back the territories which were former parts of the russian empire (and, apart from that, the soviets had an old score to settle with Poland that had attacked them during the civil war and entered their territory as far as Odessa before felling back to Poland).

That is to say that while the soviets behaved aggressively towards some of their neighbors in 1939/1940, their was absolutely no danger of a general invasion of western Europe, a theory the germans used to explain their attack on the soviets, and by collaborators to justify their attitude after the war, but which is only rubbish (the fact it is still believed by many today can be attributed to the cold war).

The reason of the german attack was only Hitler's will to conquer a so-called "vital land" ("Lebensraum"), and the fact Romania, Bulgaria (which, ironically was at war only with the USA), and Finland changed sides proves that these countries allied Germany to defend their own interests (although Romanian troops, unlike the Finns, went a lot farther than the territories the country was forced to concede to the soviets in 1940) rather than those of Germany and that when they felt they were on the losing side, they chosed the best solution for their country.

That said, their contribution on the allied side, while being, at least for Romania and Bulgaria, real and efficient, wasn't decisive as some tried to make us believe.

Maybe it's time today for some to realise that the war in the East wasn't a defence against communism but a nazi attempt to conquer land over the so-called slavic "Untermenschen" (about 18 millions of whom were slaughtered by the germans, and I'm only talking about the civilians, there were also 9 millions millitaries killed (among whom more than 3 millions who died in captivity)) and that the soviets won the war for their country, not for Stalin who was more a burden than a help for his own troops.

Still today, in Russia, the feelings about what the russian call the "great patriotic war" remain as violent and strong as in Poland or Israel, even among people who hated Stalin.


P.S : Perhaps it's also time to come back on earth, there's ideology (and sometimes hate) everywhere on every side in this thread but only very few facts (except for a few posters).

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 07:03 PM
RCAF_lilseed wrote:
- SkyChimp,
-
- Yes it is true. It is pretty sad the price that many
- civillians pay when they are invaded.
-
- My Dad's friend was raped by the russians when they
- were still living in Germany.
-
- lil'
-
-

Yes indeed it's pretty sad. Especially when the price is too high.

I already mentioned allied bombardment of German cities.
Do you know why so many Soviet soldiers fought so fiercely disregarding their own life till the last day of the war? Because every second soldier had to burry a wife, a daughter, or an old parent when he gets home.

You don't wanna get started on atrocities!

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 09:03 PM
Desant_CCCP,


I do not know whether I would cringe or pay good money to witness a debate between you and Isegrim. It wouod be a monumental duel between superbly irrational sophists.



Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 09:17 PM
One thing's for sure,

Decant makes the guys arguing about the P-51 that won the wor and the Tigers destroyed by P-47s just little kids.

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 09:39 PM
You won't impress me with you "wits". Leave them for you girlfriend; she'll appreciate them more than I will.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 09:41 PM
Man, it's the second time you try the girlfriend thing and it fails horribly.

I don't have one... you want to be the happy chosen one?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg



Message Edited on 08/28/0301:41PM by cuski

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 09:47 PM
cuski wrote:
- Man, it's the second time you try the girlfriend
- thing and it fails horribly.
-
- I don't have one... you want to be the happy chosen
- one?

get one then

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 09:51 PM
Desant, why did the Russians ask the 'western' Allies to bomb Dresden?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Could not the Russians do it themselves?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Obw, Dresden was full of 'military' targets.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/grinnell-therewent10-2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 10:23 PM
After Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin met in Yalta they decided to divide Germany. Eastern part goes under control of Soviets; Western part goes under control of Americans and Brits. Allied bombardment effort was directed toward Eastern Germany. Western Germany was left intact. The reason behind this are: Americans and Soviets both were striving to gain status of the superpower. To do that they needed German technology. This is no secret that Germans were ahead of Americans, Brits, and Soviets in terms of research and development of jet engine, atomic bomb, and rockets that could carry warheads. By distorting all they could in the East, Americans left fewer chances for Soviets to gain all these technologies. Americans sent expeditions to Western Germany to collect documentation and technology. (the expedition part I learn form Discovery Channel program about Me 262 )

That being said, it doesn't mean that Soviets didn't send such expeditions to extract German war technologies. Both Mig 15 and F-86 Sabre were based on technologies extracted from Germans.

There you go, ask questions if you have them

PS. Soviets didn't ask allies to bomb Dresden.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 10:32 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:

- Well, then I should mention Allied bombardments of
- German cities.
- Dresden, for example, didn't have any strategic
- targets: no important plants, no military targets.
- And yet, it was reduced to rubble. Many vets
- remember when they entered Dresden the fist thing
- that struck them was strong smell of rotten human
- flash over the city.
- Don't even start me on atomic attack on Japan. Many
- generations of survivors are scarred.
-
- So it wasn't smart to start on atrocities I think.


Call Dresden an atrocity if you wish, but the war was still going on then.

The Soviets committed their atrocities AFTER the Germans surrendered.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 10:34 PM
These six pages prove my point.If this thread had been defending "germany" not nazi's it would have been locked on page 1.To the millions of martyrs of soviet and nazi depravity I don't think it mattered which was killing them.Although countries do seem to like being killed by their own instead of foreigners.As far as war atrocities I don't think any nation except the soviet union killed all its own pow's and their families when they were released after the war.I don't think that any german flyers would have got together with soviet ones,with all the atrocities,east germany ,berlin etc.Their are numerous accounts of western allies sitting down with LW aces and all of them believed the germans kill #'s.Also if Hartmann had so few kills why was he picked out for special treatment by the soviets and also had a price on his head.Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 10:42 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif That explains alot - he listens to HC./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Western Germany left intact???/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

America already had the A-bomb. The Germans had barely scratched the surface.

Yes the ruskies used German data to build the MiG 15, but the F-86 only used >some< German data.

Both the Americans and Brits had axial engines running in the early '40s. The Brits even had a fanjet running in 1943. Not much to learn from the Germans. Now, the ruskies, they had sfa, so had to use any and all German data they could get their grubby little hands on.

Dresden, yes they did./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ps. turenne. ".Also if Hartmann had so few kills why was he picked out for special treatment by the soviets and also had a price on his head."

Never 'heard' a thing from the Red Banner waver when I also mentioned Hartmann's 10 year captivity and mis-treatment by the 'ivans'.



http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/grinnell-therewent10-2.jpg


Message Edited on 08/28/0305:46PM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 10:54 PM
The point that soviet government imprisoned (not killed as you said) many POW after they were released is irrelevant to this discussion as well as german's and ally's aces get-together. Nobody here denies that USSR had dictatorship as well as a Germany had. The point that was raised is that USSR plaid crucial role in defeating Nazi Germany. This fact is not appreciated by most western historians due to the Cold War, which started right after the end of WWII

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 10:58 PM
Being sent to a gulag was a death sentence, a slow, and often cruel, death.

Crucial role?????/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/grinnell-therewent10-2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:12 PM
-- Yes the ruskies used German data to build the MiG
- 15, but the F-86 only used >some< German data.

You think you know stuff about aviation? It's a common knowledge that Americans build Saber based on the German technology. American and Russian historians are not ashamed to admit it. But you are. Do you want to change your mind - go to your nearest public library as I did and pick "Wings of Luftwaffe" by Discovery Channel.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:21 PM
We're getting nowhere now.
This whole thread ran out of control.

No one wants to degrade the deathtoll and the courage of the soviets as nobody will ever say that the western allies had not the determination to cursh the nazis.
War is over, Communism is dead so let'S enjoy our time.
Mabye next time we shouldn't start to pi** each other off and offend someones pride.

As on bombing cities. This was a long term strategy. The goal was to crush the morale of the soldier on the front.
He would start fear for the life of his beloved at home and thus maybe desert...

Besides a lot of german cities had industrial centres right in the cities.
(Hamburg, Munich, Hannover)

As for the atrocities:
I don'T blame the russians. At least from 42 they were plain honest. You killed their wives and children, you disrepsected their soldiers placing them into KZs you pay the price. Bluntly and fair.

After seeing the amount of bloodshed among their civilians you blame them for mass-rapes ?
What is ONE day in berlin compared to 42- 45....

On each side were soldiers and sometimes a**ho*es.
Unfortunately no one in history had the bal*s to industrialize and organize death of humans the way germans had perfected this. Against a System which allows for that every MEAN was acceptable...

I highly respect the deeds of every soldier (regardless of the fact if he fought for west or east) by helping to crush this evil system, even if it meant killing the misused and naive people defending it(although enough have proven that they deserved the gallows).

But we MUST not forget that PRIDE is international.
Every side made mistakes which cost millions people life.

I think we should at least meet at the bottom line.
The soldiers, most of the time fought because they had no other way but to fight....
No one asked G.I. Joe or Trooper Iwan if he liked to fight now or not....

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:26 PM
Change my mind > NOPE./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LOL, the design for that would become the F-86 was on the drawing board of NAA well before any German data showed up!! Are you trying to say that Inglewood Calif is in Germany?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Use this site as a primer for you re-education on American a/c.
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p86.html

When German data became available after mid 1945, this data was used to make some changes to the F-86 design.

Glad to 'hear' that TV shows are now the ultimate educational source, especially the HC ones./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/grinnell-therewent10-2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:30 PM
Same people in Russia bashing... what was the topic again? This is amazing /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 11:44 PM
maxim26 wrote:

- You think you know stuff about aviation? It's a
- common knowledge that Americans build Saber based on
- the German technology. American and Russian
- historians are not ashamed to admit it. But you are.
- Do you want to change your mind - go to your nearest
- public library as I did and pick "Wings of
- Luftwaffe" by Discovery Channel.


I see you subscribe to Hitler's view that "all things of beauty, and all scientific achievement, is exclusively Aryan."

And your vast knowledge of the history of the F-86 came from the History Channel.

Wonderful.



Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 12:29 AM
In answer to you CrazyIvan.If you read the thread the "soviet" side started first in being abusive of other countries and then making some extremely personal attacks.Their was a 10 page thread going where Milo and Skychimp very effectively opened my eyes to some historical facts,without any nation bashing or name calling.My only beef is that if you posted in this forum that 109 was the greatest plane and germany had the greatest pilots you'd be flamed as a nazi and thread would be locked.On the otherhand if you said the same thing about Russia and la-7's no problem.My father and all of his 5 brothers fought against the axis.When you say disparaging remarks about US involvement and their abilities you insult my family.Now back to the matter at hand besides twice bringing up the same source(which no I don't believe no matter who wrote it).Their has been no other sources or infomation to prove 50 yrs of Russian,Us,British etc. historians wrong about the german kill #'s.Unable to refute the evidence shown,attacks were made and the issue clouded by irrelevant other postings.No one unless their actually saying "sieg heil" should be so defamed as to be called a nazi.As I stated before I thought a forum based on this game would attract a different sort of crowd.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 08:36 AM
Oh guys stop feeding that TROLL - thread. (uhmm from the beginning on) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



"Kimura, tu as une tªte carrée comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 10:01 AM
Oh yes, and Germans were Finns allies in Winter war?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Russia attacked Finland in 1939, and so in 1941, that is simple thruth.

And yes Finland had German as brother in arms in 1941. But that is simply because no other counry offered true material help (in big numbers).

Sad to notice, but all your claims in this is thread is full of red propaganda..

Desant_CCCP wrote:
-
- Von_Zero wrote:
-- And when did Romanians and Finns bended over for the
-- germans???
-- Both Romanians and Finns, entered the war along the
-- AXIS just for the purpose of gaining back teritories
-- that you pi$$ing $hits tooked by force!!!!
-
-
- Oh, and how is it called when one accepts terms of
- the other in order to get something from the other
- because one can't do it himself? It can be described
- by bending over.
-
-
- Hey there history buff. Germans equiped Romanian
- units with outdated captured in Poland and
- Chekoslovakia equipment. They put Romanian units in
- the front line to take the first hits. Romanians
- began to surrender first at Stalingrad (Germans
- lasted far far longer).
-
-

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 01:51 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Change my mind > NOPE./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- LOL, the design for that would become the F-86 was
- on the drawing board of NAA well before any German
- data showed up!! Are you trying to say that
- Inglewood Calif is in Germany?<-
- Use this site as a primer for you re-education on
- American a/c.
-
- When German data became available after mid 1945,
- this data was used to make some changes to the F-86
- design.
-
- Glad to 'hear' that TV shows are now the ultimate
- educational source, especially the HC ones-

Any prudent person would say that Discovery Channel (the one theat did "wings of LW" is a very credible source for these reasons:

The program consists of documentary footage that few people have access to (definetely non of your websited do).
Second, DC has got historians and researchers on its staff that actually did very complex and complete first hand recearch on the topic.
Third, DC as well as History Channel are unbiased sources of information. They do not accept the side of either of the parties presented.
Many teachers use DC and HC programs for educational purposes.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 02:18 PM
Ok, to put an end to accusations that we started the Flames I went back and traced the "flammability" of each post. Here's what I found and you can verify by doing it yourself:

First post just presented an article that the poster (maxim26) found interesting. Note: he didn't say it is a hard truth but he did state some doubts concerning German Scoring System accuracy.

Verdict: No name calling, no flames.

The next 3 posters just presented their opinions and facts
Verdict: No name calling, no flames

Fifth poster (theRealAntEater) presented his opinion spiced up by insult of a Soviet pilot:

Quote begins

"There was one occasion I found in a book where soviet radio intercepters broadcasted something like this on the german frequency. The answer was "So what, a$$hole? I'm Sachsenberg and tell your great ace to come up so I can shoot him down!"

Quote ends.

Verdict: Flames begin, name calling begins (a$$hole is a bad word for those who don't know)

Next 3 posters presented some opinions, some links. That's it.
Verdict: No name calling, no flames.

Ninth poster (Desant_CCCP its me) answered to the Fifth post by the RealAntEater.

Quote begins:

So and did he shoot him down? I guess not, because Pokrishkin kept on flying and shooting Nazi planes down. If Sachsenberg really said so he is a braging fool. Pokrishkin could say the saime to him as well. "Pokrishkin in the air" is not a propaganda. Your argument: Geramns didn't record suca a statement is flawed. Why would they admit that. The fact that German "free hunting" aces avoided Soviet aces is documented in memoirs of many WWII pilots.

Quote ends

Here we can mention Nazi pilots, which they were because they fought for Nazi side. Soviet pilots fought for Soviet side.

Verdict: No name calling, some flaming to counter insult by the Fifth poster.

Next 10th poster just presents opinion

11th post by theRealAntEater is sort of an explanation why he called Soviet pilot an a$$hole.
Apology accepted, I never flamed theRealAntEater again.

14th post by maxim26
Verdict: No name calling no flames

16th post by MiloMorai

Quote begins

Know nothing about German confirmation do you?

Quate ends

Verdict: Flames begin.

That's all folks!

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 02:28 PM
*Poking the thread with a 10ft pole* "hmm, it´s still alive?!"

============================
The important thing in [tactics] is to suppress the enemys useful actions but allow his useless actions. However, doing this alone is defensive.

Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645)
Japanese Samurai and Philosopher
(More than 60 Victories in Hand-to-Hand combat.)

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 02:36 PM
LOL, Desant you are one royal idiot. Yah, a deserved flame.


Desant_CCCP wrote:
-
-
-
- Fifth poster (theRealAntEater) presented his opinion
- spiced up by insult of a Soviet pilot:
-
- Quote begins
-
- "There was one occasion I found in a book where
- soviet radio intercepters broadcasted something like
- this on the german frequency. The answer was "So
- what, a$$hole? I'm Sachsenberg and tell your great
- ace to come up so I can shoot him down!"
-
- Quote ends.
-
- Verdict: Flames begin, name calling begins (a$$hole
- is a bad word for those who don't know)
-

LOL, when is a quote by a pilot 60 odd years ago a flame./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Get a grip!!



-
- Quote begins:
-
- So and did he shoot him down? I guess not, because
- Pokrishkin kept on flying and shooting Nazi planes
- down. If Sachsenberg really said so he is a braging
- fool. Pokrishkin could say the saime to him as well.
- "Pokrishkin in the air" is not a propaganda. Your
- argument: Geramns didn't record suca a statement is
- flawed. Why would they admit that. The fact that
- German "free hunting" aces avoided Soviet aces is
- documented in memoirs of many WWII pilots.
-
- Quote ends
-
- Here we can mention Nazi pilots, which they were
- because they fought for Nazi side. Soviet pilots
- fought for Soviet side.
-
- Verdict: No name calling, some flaming to counter
- insult by the Fifth poster.


Yes the flames start, by you, since they had been no previous flaming.>>rolleyes<<

-
-
-
- 16th post by MiloMorai
-
- Quote begins
-
- Know nothing about German confirmation do you?
-
- Quote ends
-
- Verdict: Flames begin.
-
-

LOL, you really are something else if you consider that a flame./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/grinnell-therewent10-2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 02:44 PM
Ahem;
I did not insult a soviet pilot. The culprit was Heino Sachsenberg. I only quoted the book "Wir k¤mpften in einsamen H¶hen" by Peter Düttmann, in which this episode is written down.
And you can't blame Sachsenberg either, since he died 1956, due to wounds sustained in a crash landing 1944.

http://people.freenet.de/JCRitter/1sigklein.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 03:06 PM
MiloMorai common, stop doing it...
Please, do not call names, lets better discuss German claim confirmation procedures (or total absence of them on the East).


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 03:06 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- LOL, Desant you are one royal idiot. Yah, a deserved
- flame.

Your are irrogant moron. You can oly answer to the facts by name calling.
Pathetic!

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 03:16 PM
MiloMorai,

I apologize for calling you a moron.
I was just checking how much of the brain power does it take to call someone a name.
The answer is NONE.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 03:38 PM
Desant_CCCP ->

LOL, Do U know what the real Soviet heroes, "desants", did in Finland during the war? They attacked Finnish villagers close to the boarder and killed them...mostly children, women and old men. And they claimed they had destroyed military installations and camps. Even today Russian government hasn't apologised for these actions and even still today those "desants" are proud of what they did...and U call German fighter aces pathetic ?!?!?

And it is useless to try to prove it wrong...these incidents are very thoroughly documented...from both sides.

Maxim (the initiator of this conversation) ->

Better get your facts straightened. Overall U have only one source and U rely on it like it would be the TRUTH. To contribute scientifically U have to back up your claims very well and U have neglected it all. U just quoted BS to this forum. Almost all publications and research supports the claims that Germans made.

Just one example. U claim that only Russians needed very clear proofs for a kill. Well in Finnish Airforces a kill was recorded only when another pilot saw the enemy crash or explode or the enemy plane was found later where the the pilot claimed to have shot it down.

PS: Russian pilots claimed more Finnish air crafts shot down during the Winter War (30.11.1939-11.3.1940) than existed in the Finnish Airforces http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Talking about the Russian claims...MUHAHHAAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 03:46 PM
OK, now that it's been established again - calling names does not require any brainpower - <u>STOP DOING IT</u>!

Let's stay on a topic from now on, do not fan flames..

Example:
Reading authorized biography of Gunter Rall or especially the worst book about WWII pilots - "Blond Knight." they clearly described - filling those 12point questioners as the hardest part, but reading about 10 pages from "Blond Knight." presiding Hartmann's 300th kill - it become clear - even filling them was not necessary to have his claims "confirmed".

How could anyone overlook this?



AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 04:03 PM
Well all that is certainly an interesting read!!!! Though long by anyones standards.

To the original question in the book "The Blond Knight of Germany, a biography of Erich Hartmann (Raymond F Toliver and Trevor J Constable) early on it mentions the extensive list of Erich Hartmanns kills (in the appendix) totalling 352 accepted kills.
Furthermore in the book JG26 Top Guns of the Luftwaffe (Donald L Caldwell)pg 170, lists the points system; a mehtod for the awarding of medals/decorations based on combat PERFORMANCE.

They are listed as:
Single engined fighter worth:

-1 point destroyed
-0 points for seperation from flight
-0 points for "final" destruction of an already previously damaged aircraft.

Twin engined bomber worth:

-2 points destroyed
-1 point for seperation
-0.5 points for final destruction

Four Engined bomber worth:

-3 points destroyed
-2 points for seperation
-1 point for final destruction

The award points required were as follows:

1 point = Iron Cross 1st Class
3 points = Iron Cross 2nd Class
10 points = Honour Cup
20 points = German Cross
40 points = Knights Cross

The points system was awarded as a means of having Western battlefield pilots having their abilities recognised indicating that the destruction of a 4 engined bomber in itself is a skill worth having and cultivating. The "Eastern" war pilots were getting more decorations due to such a target rich environment.

On pg 171 Donald Caldwell points out that the Points and Victory systems are completely SEPERATE from each other. Victory claims were decided by the RLM in Berlin and could take up to a year to confirm. But it is suggested that particualrly in 1943 that many 'seperations" ie getting bombers away from mass formations were being classified as victories instead and being awarded as such. Of course this bears little relevance to Erich Hartmann who was predominantly an "Eastern" fighter.

In a general sense World War 2 was won by the combined efforts of the Commonwealth, The Soviet Union and the United States (listed in alphabetical order not order of importance/contribution). Of course many other countires not included in the 3 general "powers" also contributed greatly (and by referring to the 3 powers is not my way of debasing other nations excellent efforts). If we face it the biggest mistake was that Hitler didn't overestimate his armies ability, he underestimated the potential of the weather and the resolve that seems to characterise the then Soviet citizen. Hitler went into Barbarossa with all the right tools just not "all" his tools. Of course there were many involved factors in a World War and it wasn't won singlehandedly by any nation/power. The allied assault in the Mediterranean and Middle East cut Germany's supplies of oils/fuels by a huge margin enough to make the steppes of the Soviet Union a graveyard for so many vehicles. While the eastern war chewed up the greatest "number" of resources, we musn't forget that it was by no means always their best that ended up there, and simultaneous efforts on the Western and South fronts helped check the initial expansionisim and resource allocation - ie no oil/ores = no/poor warmachine. The Allied invasion of Normandy in June 1944 was straw that broke the camels back (so to speak), already the Soviets were regaining lost ground across their lands and the tide was turning, though again the Germans were starting to stem that flow and it looked as though a rapid stalement would ensue, until the western invasion occured then an open 2 front war was a harsh reality.

The efforts of 3 madman saw a world and some great peoples brought to ruin, Hitler hamstrung the Germans for generations to come with his relentless idea that he was destined to be greater than all, Stalin's paranoia and vicous demeanour cost the lives of millions of his own people while Mussolini sought to maintain a balance that saw him as a player in any new world order.
The great patriotic war is a source of pride for the people's of the old Soviet regieme, it marked a time where the common man stood shoulder to shoulder and even if the leader was in every sense of the word a despot they stood for themselves and their homes, of this they are proud and it's hards to fault them for it. It seems that most Germans knew that the war was lost and that to sue for peace would be the only way to save their nation form destruction and division as spoils, the nation had erred at the hands of a madman,they were willing to accept they lost, but their voices were drowned out by a political party only too willing to beat the death throes out of thier dying dream. And the italians, well i guess they made the most sense, they disposed of their dictator and said "let's just stop".

So to list the germans victory system as flawed and lies seems to be contrindicated by a large amount of sources, but if you beleive it to be so then that's your right. Of course propaganda is a 2 way street as well and works for every one, but always, always needs someone to create it and someone to believe it. Erich Hartmann may not have gotten 352 planes completely destroyed no chance of them ever working again, but i think that he at least got close enough to make it a difference, albeit a stone in an ocean's difference.

This post is of course my opinion and feel free to disagree with anything i have said as you wish. The 2 books i mention are also good reads http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 04:43 PM
Sorry Bogun, I call a 'spade a spade'. If this waver of the Red Banner sees flames in what AntEater and I posted, he is truly what I called him.


Bogun wrote:
- MiloMorai common, stop doing it...
- Please, do not call names, lets better discuss
- German claim confirmation procedures (or total
- absence of them on the East).
-


Desant, you can stuff your apology where the sun don't shine./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

by Desant:
"I was just checking how much of the brain power does it take to call someone a name.
The answer is NONE."

And you have named called twice./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/grinnell-therewent10-2.jpg


Message Edited on 08/29/0312:12PM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 05:09 PM
Desant-CCCP wrote:
- Any prudent person would say that Discovery Channel
- (the one theat did "wings of LW" is a very credible
- source for these reasons:
-
- The program consists of documentary footage that few
- people have access to (definetely non of your
- websited do).
- Second, DC has got historians and researchers on its
- staff that actually did very complex and complete
- first hand recearch on the topic.
- Third, DC as well as History Channel are unbiased
- sources of information.


Your claims seem rather more wishful than accurate. Have you ever had any personal involvement with the production of such programming? Several of my good friends and research colleagues have been retained as historical consultants by the sort of of TV programs you describe. I'm afraid that you would be sorely disappointed in what they have to say about the standards of historical objectivity displayed by most TV productions.


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 05:15 PM
<munch munch munch>
Pass some more popcorn this is getting good!

"We make war that we may live in peace."

Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 05:20 PM
What a load of uninformed clichés...

Do some real BASIC research, easy enough although it can cost you some money and a little more time.

Bottom line - 60 years of critics hasn't been able to discredit the German claim system without doing serious harm to the general claims of the other combattants.

Message Edited on 08/29/0306:30PM by rhorta

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 05:52 PM
Porta_ wrote:
- Desant_CCCP ->
-
- LOL, Do U know what the real Soviet heroes,
- "desants", did in Finland during the war? They
- attacked Finnish villagers close to the boarder and
- killed them...mostly children, women and old men.
- And they claimed they had destroyed military
- installations and camps. Even today Russian
- government hasn't apologised for these actions and
- even still today those "desants" are proud of what
- they did...and U call German fighter aces pathetic
- ?!?!?

Yes, but how often did it happen (Finland lost less than 25 000 civilians in the Winter war and about 10 000 in WWII for military losses of respectively 5000 and 82000) ? And did the Finnish government apologise for blockading Leningrad with the germans, a blockade during which more than 1000 000 civilians starved to death ?

- PS: Russian pilots claimed more Finnish air crafts
- shot down during the Winter War
- (30.11.1939-11.3.1940) than existed in the Finnish
- Airforces http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Talking about the Russian
- claims...MUHAHHAAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
-

No one said the soviet claims during the Winter war or during early WWII were accurate, but it's a fact that from the end of 1942 onwards they had a reliable confirmation system.

P.S. : As I said before, in an other thread, don't mix propaganda on the radio or in daily communicates with internal records of the VVS.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 06:08 PM
The Finns stopped well short of Leningrad (30km-60km). If they went as near as the Germans did, then the 'Ice Road' would not have been possible. The Finnish heavy artillery was well out of range of Leningrad. Considering that it was the Russians that attacked Finland, it is lucky that the Finns did not advance to the gates of Leningrad. It should be noted that the Germans asked the Finns to help them at Leningrad but they refused.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/grinnell-therewent10-2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 06:19 PM
Great injustice was done to Finns by Soviet Union in 1940.
There are none and could not be any excuses for that Soviet aggression against Finland.
This makes hard for Finnish guys to have their heads clear of prejudices (just like for anyone else who is involved in discussion in very emotional level) and see what their countrymen during WWII were taking part in - was Holocaust and they (Finnish soldiers) were willing participants.

I don't want to mix this issue with WWII claim procedures or absence of those.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 06:23 PM
rhett69 wrote:
- <munch munch munch>
- Pass some more popcorn this is getting good!
-
- "We make war that we may live in peace."
-
- Aristotle
-



Yup.



************************************************** ******


I'll take my car with 382 fully forged cubic inches of fire-breathing, MPFI, nitrous sniffing, all aluminum, tire-roasting Chevrolet power, thank you very much.


"If you can turn, you aren't going fast enough."

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 06:31 PM
NICLI ->

Finland stopped where the Finnish-Russian border was BEFORE WINTER WAR. The Karelian Isthmus belonged to Finland before the Russians attacked on 30th November 1939.

U very shamefully underrate the losses Finns suffered in WWII. DO U really say that those losses Finland suffered are not comparable to Russian losses. U R saying that the sacrifice of those people is not as tragic than the Russian losses (or other losses of human lives) cause they R less in amount!??!?!?!! Your opinion is very immature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Here some facts for U so that U really would understand the situation:

1. Finland attacked till they reached the pre Winter War boarder on Karelian Isthmus. The boarder was 30km from the down town Leningrad. When they reached the boarder they stopped.

2. Russians did never declare war on Finns in the beginning of Continuation War (June 1941-August 1944). They simply just bombed Finnish cities (some 20 of them) and shot down a Finnish passanger plane at the Estonian coast...hmmm how many military targets do U see here?

(Just a note: Russian artillery shot their own troops at Mainila on November 1939 to get an excuse to attack Finland and to begin Winter War. Stalin planned to occupie Finland in 2 weeks.) Thus the Continuation War was never declared, but Finland attacked Soviets after Soviets had started the hostilities. Hitler had also announced that Finland had joined Germany in a war against Soviet Union even though it was not true. There was not much choise, since Finland was depended on imports e.g. food.

3. Soviet authorities did very little to evacuate people from Leningrad even though it was clear what was going to happen. So they neglegted their duties.

4. Germans asked Finland to attack Leningrad several times but Finland refused.

5. Finland never attacked or bombed civilian targets. Soviets did not only bomb civilian targets but they did it in Winter and Continuation war. Soviets also send desants and partisans to attack "military targets" behind the Finnish lines. Those targets were mostly small villages close to boarder. Victims were children, women and old people.

I hope this will straighten up some facts that U were clearly unaware of. Ask if U have questions. I have plenty of answers.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 06:46 PM
Bogun ->

It is clearly documented that Holocaust wasn't widely known during the war especially outside Germany. This is also the case in Finland. Finland handed 5 (if I can remember right) jews to Germany during the whole war. No more but no less. Finland has publicly apologised for that and it is one of the darkest moments in Finland's history.

Still it was not a common procedure. Finland had:

jews, estonians, people from Inkeri and many other nationalities fighting against Russians in Finnish Army.

These people were not handed over to any nation DURING the war!!!

After the war the allies set a Supervision Committee to Helsinki, Finland to organize issues as the winners wanted in Finland. That committee was lead by Russians but it also inluded highly ranked military personnel from Great Britain, USA etc. This committee forced Finland to hand Estonians and the people from Inkeri back to Russia where they were treated as traitors. Many of them disappeared or were killed and many were send to Siberia...just for fighting for Finland (Estonians and especially people from Inkeri are very close relatives to the Finnish nationality and thus they wanted to fight for Finland during the war).

The destiny of these people in Soviet hands was very clear to everyone. STILL BRITTONS AND AMERICANS DID NOTHING TO STOP IT.

I just pointed out that "the winners" were not any better than e.g. Germans. I hope U understand now that Finns did nothing the allies hadn't done!
Bogun wrote:
- Great injustice was done to Finns by Soviet Union in
- 1940.
- There are none and could not be any excuses for that
- Soviet aggression against Finland.
- This makes hard for Finnish guys to have their heads
- clear of prejudices (just like for anyone else who
- is involved in discussion in very emotional level)
- and see what their countrymen during WWII were
- taking part in - was Holocaust and they (Finnish
- soldiers) were willing participants.
-
- I don't want to mix this issue with WWII claim
- procedures or absence of those.
-
-
-
- AKA_Bogun
-
----------------
- The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction
- has to make sense.
-
-- Tom Clancy
-

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 07:22 PM
Porta ->

Holocaust is a word to describe a "the massive destruction of humans by other humans."
Not just Jews, but any people on massive scale.
Nazis were practicing it against Poles, Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainials, Gypsies, others.
Finland and other Nazi Allies - all were pursuing their small, separate from Nazi goals, but still were participants in this horrendous crime. <u>Willing participants.</u>

There is no excuse for Soviet Union aggression against Finland during Winter War, but I can imagine some thinking, that Soviets were trying to prevent something like Siege of Leningrad from happening.



AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 09:18 PM
Bogun ->

It is very easy to claim those things now later when those events took place before. Read my post again and U might catch what I wrote. It seems that U missed the point and even some facts that I wrote.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 09:45 PM
No,the Holocaust is a term that describes the systematic industrialized genocide of the Jews of Europe by the Nazis.

The Soviets practiced mass-murder as "government" policy on a far larger scale and for a far longer time.

XyZspineZyX
08-29-2003, 11:54 PM
Now were really off topic.Every single day (that's 365) I find errors some small some glaring in the history channel and also the wings discovery.I'll ask you guys an elemantary ? that both the channels get wrong.Is there such a thing as a me109?

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 12:35 AM
Hmm...

First I wanted to post some comments in this thread too.
But decided not to do so.
Too many nazi revisionists here for me to handle /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
This discussion is futile.
I am outta here.



Message Edited on 08/29/0311:36PM by FPS_Stierlitz

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 04:18 AM
Bogun wrote:
- Holocaust is a word to describe a "the massive
- destruction of humans by other humans."
- Not just Jews, but any people on massive scale.
- Nazis were practicing it against Poles, Russians,
- Belorussians, Ukrainials, Gypsies, others.
- Finland and other Nazi Allies - all were pursuing
- their small, separate from Nazi goals, but still
- were participants in this horrendous crime.
- <u>Willing participants.</u>


So pls add hiroshima and nagasaki to your list.

This tread is uglyyyyy and offtopic. And all started
because one put some confuse garbage about german
kills/victories.

And conlude that a unknow russian has more kills than
hartaman and crap like that...

you guys are starting a war

Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-Lock-
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 06:19 AM
yes stierlitz, but also too much redbanner waver. you want to wave it too ?

http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 10:00 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Oh, oh, a 3rd waver of the Red Banner./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
- Fyi, "ruskie" is >>>SLANG<<<, just like "ivan' is
- for 'Russians'. Even 'Russian' is slang since not
- all the people in the USSR are from the state of
- Russia. But then Russians think themselves superior
- to all the other people in the USSR.
-
- And you 'ace' is full of it on the German 'kills'.
- This has been explained several times already in
- this thread.
-
- That insult is a banning offence, if I PMed a Mod to
- complain. But you are not worth the time to do
- so./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
-
-
- Gustoy wrote:
--
--
--
-- Moran!!!
--
-- In english it is Russians.
--
--
--
-
-
-
-
<img
- src="http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/grinnell-t
- herewent10-2.jpg">
-


Dude your crap about Russian superiority to other people
in the USSR doesn't make sense.But it looks like somebody
did hurt you.
And you 'ace' full of that your explonations are good for
'aces' like you are who believe in dreams not reality.
If I insulted you.I will do it anytime Ifeel like it.
To all Dudes who believe Hartmann had 352 kills.Can you
prove atleast 60 percent of them.If you can. I will have
no problems at all to beleive that.
And to dude from Munich.I will get you the adress.
Smart boy Milo Morai congratulations on your English
slang knowledge.

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 10:06 AM
Gustoy wrote:

- And to dude from Munich.I will get you the adress.


hope you don´t forget it .
i remember you from time to time /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

edit:
Gustoy, who has confirmed the kills of the soviet aces ?
a international and independent jury . hardly.
you are nothing more than a armchair historian, like we all. or are you something special ?




http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

Message Edited on 08/30/0309:17AM by Boandlgramer

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 10:31 AM
It is really good that you remember me.
Are you saying you can't prove 60% of Hartmann's kills

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 10:58 AM
Now this is really off topic and I shouldn't interfere, but I really don't get it when somebody says Finland was a nazi ally or that we were willing participants in a masive destruction of people.

I also suggest that you read the points made by porta more carefully.

Germany was the country Finland had to turn to in order to get some help in a desperate situation, but there never were strong bonds between the two countries leaders, actually Mannerheim quite disliked Hitler.

When Russians started to push back, Hitler refused to give more help, if Finland didn't sign a treaty of more stronger attachment to Germany's goals. Finnish government wasn't willing to do that, so Finnish president Risto Ryti had to do a personal contract (with the devil) and thus saved Finland more time. Now Finland as a state wasn't connected to Germany and so we could continue to try to make peace with Russia. After the war the allies put him to jail because of that personal bravery.

Now I return to the popcorn section.

Bogun wrote:
- Porta ->
-
- Holocaust is a word to describe a "the massive
- destruction of humans by other humans."
- Not just Jews, but any people on massive scale.
- Nazis were practicing it against Poles, Russians,
- Belorussians, Ukrainials, Gypsies, others.
- Finland and other Nazi Allies - all were pursuing
- their small, separate from Nazi goals, but still
- were participants in this horrendous crime.
- <u>Willing participants.</u>
-
- There is no excuse for Soviet Union aggression
- against Finland during Winter War, but I can imagine
- some thinking, that Soviets were trying to prevent
- something like Siege of Leningrad from happening.
-
-
-
-
- AKA_Bogun
-
----------------
- The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction
- has to make sense.
-
-- Tom Clancy
-

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 11:23 AM
gorillasika wrote:
- Now this is really off topic and I shouldn't
- interfere, but I really don't get it when somebody
- says Finland was a nazi ally or that we were willing
- participants in a masive destruction of people.
-
- I also suggest that you read the points made by
- porta more carefully.
-
- Germany was the country Finland had to turn to in
- order to get some help in a desperate situation, but
- there never were strong bonds between the two
- countries leaders, actually Mannerheim quite
- disliked Hitler.
-
- When Russians started to push back, Hitler refused
- to give more help, if Finland didn't sign a treaty
- of more stronger attachment to Germany's goals.
- Finnish government wasn't willing to do that, so
- Finnish president Risto Ryti had to do a personal
- contract (with the devil) and thus saved Finland
- more time. Now Finland as a state wasn't connected
- to Germany and so we could continue to try to make
- peace with Russia. After the war the allies put him
- to jail because of that personal bravery.
-
- Now I return to the popcorn section.
-
- Bogun wrote:
-- Porta ->
--
-- Holocaust is a word to describe a "the massive
-- destruction of humans by other humans."
-- Not just Jews, but any people on massive scale.
-- Nazis were practicing it against Poles, Russians,
-- Belorussians, Ukrainials, Gypsies, others.
-- Finland and other Nazi Allies - all were pursuing
-- their small, separate from Nazi goals, but still
-- were participants in this horrendous crime.
-- <u>Willing participants.</u>
--
-- There is no excuse for Soviet Union aggression
-- against Finland during Winter War, but I can imagine
-- some thinking, that Soviets were trying to prevent
-- something like Siege of Leningrad from happening.
--
--
--
--
-- AKA_Bogun
--
-----------------
-- The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction
-- has to make sense.
--
--- Tom Clancy
--
-
-
-
-
- Dude! get lost with your Finnland .We are takling about
how the Germans were counting their kills.

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 12:02 PM
Greetings. This is off topic, but does anyone know a good on-line psychiatrist. My problem is, I am very uncomfortable flying a Russian Plane. I can't even fly a German Plane with a Red Star on it, although that mixture helps a little. My kin-folk fought against the Germans in WWII. Some of them were killed and some severely wounded. I am not a Nazi lover, I don't like Nazis but Germans are OK. but I seem to have an aberrant revulsion to Russian planes..

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 02:42 PM
Yes, this thread is out of topic! It has no sense any longer.
If I read the whole thread, I believe the "political" old trenches beteen ost and west are over.
But it seems under the surface the old problems haven't been solved yet.
I don't say it to everyone here but there are a few meanings, letters, ... oh man!

What does it mean? One day new problems with the old problems or only the rest of old problems?

Greats,
Motorsound

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 02:46 PM
The title of this thread is "Truth about german fighter pilots score system".

Stay on topic or I'll be forced to lock this thread.

Thank you! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


http://members.chello.se/ven/behave.jpg


http://members.chello.se/ven/milton.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 03:49 PM
Yes please lock it.I was under the impression from the first post that you were looking for other sources and info about german scoring.I now realize that you just posted what you had found from one "soviet" source and now believe is gospel.Info like you posted was printed in US,GB,and many other countries right after the war.Once historians started delving into the facts all that literature was discarded in favor of factual accounts.If you want to throw out all the info from 50 yrs of historical research(in the hundreds) because of one source that says the opposite that is fine with me.You said you wanted to debate and you were stated verse and chapter.Somehow the topic got changed to how much that the soviet union did against nazi germany.No one who knows the smallest of history will say that the eastern front wasn't the largest campaign in history and that the soviets performed miracles under adverse conditions and suffered horribly at the hands of the nazi's.But it is a shame that the western allies didn't do more sooner so that stalin would have been locked behind his borders and not have been able to cause such pain and horror in eastern europe for so long.I am very surprised and actually somewhat pleased to find that a historical simulation has attracted such diverse people.I was under the impression before getting into these forums that it would be for aviation and history nuts over the age of thirty,with historical backgrouds.I see now that a younger and more diverse crowd is enjoying FB,and that makes me happy.Farewell.

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 08:08 PM
Sheesh!!
I missed a little and now Look!!
nicli wrote:
The soviet aggressive policy towards countries like
- Poland, Romania (from which parts of territory were
- taken, at the same time, by Hungary with the
- approval of Germany, a fact nobody seems to
- remember), and Finland in 1939/1940 can be explained
- by Stalin's will to get back the territories which
- were former parts of the russian empire.
I agree with you but there is one big * issunderstanding* about losing Transilvania to Hungary.
Romanians had practically no posibility to do anything against.
There are facts that You don't know(in fact even now, MANY Romanians don't know them).
This was one of the reasons of entering the war along ther axis. The main purpose was gaining back ALL teritories,but since at hthat time the only posibilities were only to get back eastern teritories(Moldavia), from Russia.

-and the fact Romania, Bulgaria
- (which, ironically was at war only with the USA),
Only USA(and UK) declared war to romania and bulgaria, I don't know too much (almost anything) about bulgarian actions during WW2, but romanian troops attacked Soviet Union, without a war declaration, considering the previous agression of the soviets a war declaration.(questionable IMO).
-although Romanian troops, unlike the
- Finns, went a lot farther than the territories the
- country was forced to concede to the soviets in
- 1940)
this was the only way to get back ALL teritories.
Think it like that: We got back Moldavia, now the only way to get back he rest of the territories lost to Hungary, was either by political dicussins, either by a direct armed conflict with Hungary.
Any of these variants included the participation of Germany on one of the sides.
Since romanian troops weren't prepared for an imaediate conflict with Hungary the only solution at that timwe was to fight along Germany until the end of the war, and solve all problems afterwards.
So all we could do was to fight toghether with germany, and "gain Hitler's trust" (questionable again).
the problem about transilvania(even if now is part of Romania) is still a sticky question wich is (more or less) debated these days.

- That said, their contribution on the allied side,
- while being, at least for Romania and Bulgaria, real
- and efficient, wasn't decisive as some tried to make
- us believe.

You got my iddea wrong.
Romania didn't played such a *great* role to the alied side by fighting on the western front, but from NOT fighting along Germany against soviets.
Imagine the fact this way: i fromania didn't have changed sides on august '44, the Red Army would still had to conquer this territory, and fight against a "stronger" force that it did.
So, all i meant was that nobody can know how much (and how long) would the Soviets had to fight to conquer the land between Prut river and the Carpathians, since after 23 august, when the soviets reaced Bucharest, all the land to the Carpathians was already " cleaned" by Romanian troops.
God, the western campaign was cathastrophical for romanians!

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 09:13 PM
Von_Zero wrote:
and the fact Romania, Bulgaria
-- (which, ironically was at war only with the USA),
- Only USA(and UK) declared war to romania and
- bulgaria, I don't know too much (almost anything)
- about bulgarian actions during WW2,

Here`s brother Ankanor to enlighten the unknowing:

Bulgaria signed a contract with Germany in march(maybe wrong) 1941. Bulgaria remained a passive ally of the Axis forces, even after 22 June 1941-Actually, on that day a few bulgarian cities, situated on the Black sea, were bombed by unknown airplanes, that retired towards east(does it ring a bell?) After that there were occasional bombings by planes identified as British. During that time Bulgaria was at peace with both the Western allies and USSR. but on the 22 December 1941, IMO blinded by the success of the Axis, both on the eastern front and in the Pacific and North Africa, Bulgarian government, despite the oposition of king Boris III, declared a "symbolic" war on the Western allies. However Bulgaria remained at Peace and kept normal relationships with USSR(there`s a rumour that in 1943 Hitler attempted contacting Stalin about signing of peace, using the russian ambassador in Bulgaria)

On the 1st of August, American bombers raided Ploest, enroute passing over Bulgaria. On their way back the survivors were met by 4 bulgarian Me109G-2 and 5 were shot down. After that, the allied command started operation "Point blank", one of its goals was forcing Bulgarian government into surrender by raids on the Capital city-Sofia. during the attacks, till 17. 04. 1944, 117 Allied planes fell over bulgarian territory.

On the 5th of September USSR declared war on bulgaria. this was done with the purpose of raising a Communist government. In a desperate move, on 8 of September, Bulgaria declared war on Germany. for about 24 hours, Bulgaria was officially at war with the Whole world!!! (there`s a saying in bulgaria, what bulgarian army conquered in battle, was lost by the politicians afterwards)

On the 9th of September, the pro-communist regime took over and on the same day bulgarian forces started attacking the German army. if you need more info, pls feel free to contact me/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king."

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 09:30 PM
Ankanor wrote:
for about 24 hours, Bulgaria was officially at war with
- the Whole world!!!
neeeee!!!!
You forgot China!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Darn interesting, thanks for the info mate. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>"The show must go on..."<center>
<center>http://www.hobby.ro/roarmy/aviatia/greceanu%20tudor/1.jpg
A 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. A 'great'
landing is one after which they can use the plane again<center>

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 12:23 PM
No activety for a few days.

Does this mean the wavers of the RedBanner accept, finally, that they are in error on German medal scoring and 'kill' scoring.

One other word on Hartmann, the Soviets took his logbook from him while he was in a Soviet prison.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 12:48 PM
maxim 26

In some points you are right, some are near the truth others are false.

you are rigth with the point system, but the points for four engine bombers are:

4 points for a kill (plane crasht to the ground)
3 points for a "Herausschuss", bomber leaves the formation and the plane is damaged
1 point for the final destruction of a "Herausschuss"

- That is why the "number of the victories" for the
- german aces is the number of points but not the
- number of actual kills.

this statement is 100% wrong

for example, Willi Reschke from the JG301 has 28 Kills, Fighters and 4 Engine Bombers, due the points of the 4 Engine bombers he recieved the Knights cross.

- In reality the number of
- actual kills much lower. And the transformation of
- the victories into the "kills" is nothing more than
- propaganda. And this is propaganda of post war
- period. During war german pilots wrote in their
- reports not "kill" but "victory".

You mix it up, kill and victory is the same, the enemy aircraft is destroyed. The difference is how much points you get for a victory


German radio signal
- "Attention! Pokrishkin is in the air!"
Another point with 100% false.

This radio message was send from the Russians.

Unfortunately I have to say you mix up facts with opinions.
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


Snoopy

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 12:59 PM
Desant,

stay cool. Its a mather of fact that only the red guard has good pilots - the rest of the russian pilots was sitting ducks with low morale to fight.

And think twice, Sachsenburg has twice more kills than Pokryshin...... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Snoopy

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 01:29 PM
maxim26

You are proud for what? Winning the war? Yor grand father?

A lot of people think there is no reason to be proud to win a war. What about all the dead and injured people? Can you be proud when you kill somebody? I hope not, killing anywone is and should be a shame. No mather for what reason, nation or race.

I hope you are proud for your grandfather.

It is a funny kind of proud, to be proud of your contry. What have you done do create this contry?
And this kind of proud is one of the most used "tools" in propaganda, everywhere in the world.

Reading the book "The wave" will help you do understand something about this mechanism.

Snoopy

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 01:42 PM
let me guess your tactic; you are a horizontal fighter.

Have you ever heard about Boom and Zoom?

Snoopy

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 01:50 PM
Desant_CCCP wrote:
-
- Wargull wrote:
--
-- And the Russians shot down at least tripple the
-- amount planes that Finns had well Soviet Union needed its
-- heroes
---just saying-
--
--
-
- Yes Soviet Union needed its heroes, and it had
- plenty of them. Ever heard of Brest Frotress. It
- stood up for 40 days till the last defender died
- from the flames of German flame-thrower or starved
- to death.
-
- Read about heroes of besieged Leningrad when 2
- million civilians preferred death instead of bending
- over for the Germans like Romanians and Finns did.
-
- Read about Pomfilov's boys. Twenty-five of them
- destroyed 50 German tanks that were thrusting toward
- Moscow's gates.
-
- All this I learned not from Russian sources, as you
- and I wouldn't trust them. I picked up a copy of PBS
- (American public broadcasting company) documentary
- called "Russian War: Blood Upon the Snow". This is
- done by American historians.
-

And I hope you read also about the two recce pilots that went to prison, because they spotted a large german tank column.

Snoopy

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 02:34 PM
What does all this crap have to do with the German scoring system?

Here is another one. There was no sharing of the kill. If either pilot could not prove that their claim was valid, no one got the kill. It went to the unit instead.

Did pilots inflate their score? It happened on all sides. According to the book "the Aces", ( I think that is the name ), some nations accepted their pilots claims without question. France for one.

Even gun camera film can be wrong. There is one instance in which a plane was was seen to burst into flame. The pilot was awarded a kill based on what the camera showed.
That plane survived, it was the drop tank that caught fire.

Did German scores have to be approved by the RLM? I can't recall exactly. And did they count one of their own planes as destroyed if the pilot bailed out and returned. I read that somewhere, but it was a long time ago.

What does the Holocaust, of Finland's role in the war, or getting a girlfriend, bombing Dresden, etc , have to do with a scoring system?

Not a DAMN thing.

Just accept the scores as they stand. None of us can ever prove the claims by Hartman, Bong, Sakai, Kozebub are wrong.
The records have been gone over again and again by professional historians. We airmchair types ain't going to do any better.

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 02:48 PM
Iris47

damn good post .

http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 03:10 PM
Porta_ wrote:
- NICLI ->
- U very shamefully underrate the losses Finns
- suffered in WWII. DO U really say that those losses
- Finland suffered are not comparable to Russian
- losses. U R saying that the sacrifice of those
- people is not as tragic than the Russian losses (or
- other losses of human lives) cause they R less in
- amount!??!?!?!! Your opinion is very immature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Sure there is no differrences for you if you are the father or the son of a victim but a figure is a figure and you are trying to compare 10 000 civilian death (I got it in the "Quid ?" encyclopedia which is usually reliable) to 18 000 000 ones (source : Anthony Beevor's "Stalingrad").

Sorry, in my mind this is not the same.

In WWII, finnish civilian losses were 8 times lower than their military ones, while the russians suffered twice as many civilian death as military ones (of which 3 millions died in captivity).

- Here some facts for U so that U really would
- understand the situation:
-
- 1. Finland attacked till they reached the pre Winter
- War boarder on Karelian Isthmus. The boarder was
- 30km from the down town Leningrad. When they reached
- the boarder they stopped.
-
- 2. Russians did never declare war on Finns in the
- beginning of Continuation War (June 1941-August
- 1944). They simply just bombed Finnish cities (some
- 20 of them) and shot down a Finnish passanger plane
- at the Estonian coast...hmmm how many military
- targets do U see here?
-

German aircrafts were in Finland in order to attack the soviets well before the 22/06/1941, and the finnish participation in Barbarossa was already planned : the russians were right to consider themselves at war with Finland from the start.

BTW, is a finnish city civilian and a russian one a military target ?

The soviets, like all countries in WWII shot down anything they met in the air over ennemy territory.

- 3. Soviet authorities did very little to evacuate
- people from Leningrad even though it was clear what
- was going to happen. So they neglegted their duties.

Untrue, the soviets evacuated hundreds of thousands of civilians from Leningrad, you should check your info again.

- 4. Germans asked Finland to attack Leningrad several
- times but Finland refused.

They were not able to do it, the germans themselves were never able to enter Leningrad, the finns were not stupid, they realised the axis forces available were not strong enough to decicively attack Leningrad.

- 5. Finland never attacked or bombed civilian
- targets. Soviets did not only bomb civilian targets
- but they did it in Winter and Continuation war.
- Soviets also send desants and partisans to attack
- "military targets" behind the Finnish lines. Those
- targets were mostly small villages close to boarder.
- Victims were children, women and old people.

I don't say there were no soviet crimes, but as I said above, during WWII, Finland had very few civilian losses compared to their military ones, which is not the case for Russia which suffered what is widely considered as a genocide (in which the finnish forces, while doing nothing comparable to what did their german allies, participated, at least by besieging Leningrad with the germans).

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 03:15 PM
Iris47, very good post.
I think this boring thread should have been locked days ago.
Too much nationalistic crap and insults.



http://www.uploadit.org/files/030903-Tempest_MkV_picc.jpg </p>


I have more pistons than you!</p>

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 03:32 PM
Von_Zero wrote:
- This was one of the reasons of entering the war
- along ther axis. The main purpose was gaining back
- ALL teritories,but since at hthat time the only
- posibilities were only to get back eastern
- teritories(Moldavia), from Russia.
-

Moldavia is, in my mind different from the territories taken by the soviet in 1940, as it had been contested for long and still is today (look at all this mess about Transnistria).


- Since romanian troops weren't prepared for an
- imaediate conflict with Hungary the only solution at
- that timwe was to fight along Germany until the end
- of the war, and solve all problems afterwards.
-

True, but it wasn't wise after 1940 to plan an attack on the USSR rather than Hungary, as the latter was less powerful than Romania while an attack against the USSR wasn't a great idea as, if you don't consider Hitler's racial theories, the outcome of this war was, from the start, at least, unsure.

I think the germans played against Romania there, by backing Hungary they prevented Romania from putting pressure on it and they left as only solutions to get back at least some of the territories lost in 1940 an alliance with them against the USSR in a war that finally became a disaster for the country.

- Romania didn't played such a *great* role to the
- alied side by fighting on the western front, but
- from NOT fighting along Germany against soviets.
-
- Imagine the fact this way: i fromania didn't have
- changed sides on august '44, the Red Army would
- still had to conquer this territory, and fight
- against a "stronger" force that it did.
-
- So, all i meant was that nobody can know how much
- (and how long) would the Soviets had to fight to
- conquer the land between Prut river and the
- Carpathians, since after 23 august, when the soviets
- reaced Bucharest, all the land to the Carpathians
- was already " cleaned" by Romanian troops.
-
- God, the western campaign was cathastrophical for
- romanians!
-

OK, I understand what you mean, but I think the Romanian government took the right decision for the country, as the soviets were already too powerfull to be defeated and continuing the war on the german side would have meant nothing but increased destructions of the country for the same outcome, and this fighting alongside an ally who did absolutely not care about the interests of Romania.

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 03:37 PM
Cippacometa wrote:
- Iris47, very good post.
- I think this boring thread should have been locked
- days ago.
- Too much nationalistic crap and insults.
-
-

Agreed, but is still an informative thread if the discussion can remain >>civil<<.

Threads do tend to wonder off topic.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 03:56 PM
snoopy88 wrote:
- Desant,
-
- stay cool. Its a mather of fact that only the red
- guard has good pilots - the rest of the russian
- pilots was sitting ducks with low morale to fight.
-

Untrue, by mid-1943, some LW pilots (Alfred Grislawski among them (see the BC/RS site)) considered the soviet pilots as generally individually a little better than those of the Western allies (though the latters had the advantage of always appearing in great numbers).

In fact, the appreciation of LW pilots about their soviet opponents differed a lot depending on when they changed fronts, those who changed before 1943 generally thought the soviets were not as good as the french, british or americans pilots they had met before.

After that, many LW pilots considered the soviets were at least as good pilots as their western opponents.

- And think twice, Sachsenburg has twice more kills
- than Pokryshin......

Are you sure, I've never heard of Sachsenburg before but Pokrishkin most probably scored even more kills than its official tally as a number of them were not confirmed because of various factors such as his bad relationship with his COs (in january 1943, Isaev (his regiment's commander) even contacted the NKVD and asked to have Pokrishkin stripped of his Order of Lenin and sentenced for unsobordination), the varying confirmation rules (13 kills were not credited because the aircrafts fallen behind ennemy lines were not credited at that time), or even because AAA gunners had opened fire first on the aircraft (a Ju-88) even though these gunners themselves recognised that Pokrishkin had shot it down (with rockets, if I remember well).

Pokrishkin is known to have claimed at least 87 kills, while some sources indicate more than 100 (but, for these, without giving a list of the claims).

Anyway, this conversation most probably never happened (or neither one pilot nor the other were aware of it), it sounds like war propaganda, nothing more.

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 04:07 PM
nicli wrote:

-
- I've never heard of Sachsenburg before
-
-
-

for your reading

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/sachsenberg.html



http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/taylor-greycap2.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-03-2003, 04:12 PM
OK, thanks.