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View Full Version : P-51D vs 109G [not a thread for complaints please ;)]



BM357_Raven
12-29-2003, 10:29 AM
This is not whining ( I dont do that ), simply an observasion and request for some insight from others who are more tecnically in the know and willing to entertain this discussion.

I am a die-hard P-51 fan (esp. the 'B' model) and I have spent a limited time trying to get to know the D model. It's an uphill battle for me. I really genuinely enjoy the flight model and find it comparible to my other sim experiences of the P-51D in CFS...It is a solid plane and rings true of comments I have read about her being 'honest' and forgiving. The words that Bud Anderson used about it being the plane that could make both good AND mediocre pilots seem better than they really are is not something that is shining through at the moment.

I have also flown the 109 and find it to be more enjoyable and deadly than before the patch, which I personally applaud. I am glad for 109 pilots...

However, compared to many or most of the 109 variants, I find that the P-51 is outclassed.

I usually try to get my team as high as possible and find that we have limited success against the 109.. Pilot error on my part?--quite possible, but I think I am doing well by trying to maintain high speed and engage the enemy on my terms, staying light on the controls as much as allowable maintain momentum
wherever possible.

I also admit, that it takes me a long time to get used to a new flight model and perfect it. Other tactics I have tried include use of combat flaps, no flaps, trim, speed windows, alt., and various maneuvers and still havent completely clicked with the plane yet.

For the little experience I have had in the 109, I am a much stronger pilot in it...

My experience tells me the 109 (esp the G) is by far the stronger plane in most ways.. It turns better (so far as I can see), climbs better, has good enough momentum to stick with the P-51 on the straight and level (esp if you make the mistake of getting caught on the deck) has better acceleration, and can stick with a P-51 enough in a dive to often become a nuisance..but even at high alt I dont notice (personally) a marked improvement in the P51 vs the 109..

What does the P-51 have? The P-51 has better visibilty.

Team tactics aside, the 109G is a P-51 killer!

So what's my point? Well, it is simply that everything we read (at least as Americans) points to the P-51 as being the better (or best) plane in WWII. I continue to read from pilots that "it could do everything the 109 could, but do it a little better." This I have read from numerous pilots of the day..

So the question becomes, are they talking more about the "B" than the "D"? Actually, that's one question.

The next question is, that perhaps the P-51 won through glamour alone, associated with it's range ability to accompany bombers deep into Germany and hense turn the tides somewhat in the air over Germany. Is it possible that along with the press that made Americans proud and the Allies sigh from relief, that it somehow became the 'everything' plane in the minds of Americans? Kind of like the winner makes his own history?

The only thing that helps come to mind is that by the end of the War, the US pilots were probably the best trained in the world, employing tactics that acheived victories over an enemy that was told to tuck-tale-and-run (only to engage the bombers), whenever confronted by an Allied fighter. Of course, if you turn and run or dive from a P-51, you are in trouble. Is this what gave the P-51 is somewhat stellar reputation? A mixture of pride and better dogfigther tactics and training?

The last variable, of course, is the game and the flight model. I simply do not pretend to know enough to question the flight model, but what I see is inconsistent with what I have heard and read. Again, I am still trying to get the hang of this beautiful plane. Equally, I am happy about the improvements to the 109...

Interested to read others' responses...

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BM357_Raven
12-29-2003, 10:29 AM
This is not whining ( I dont do that ), simply an observasion and request for some insight from others who are more tecnically in the know and willing to entertain this discussion.

I am a die-hard P-51 fan (esp. the 'B' model) and I have spent a limited time trying to get to know the D model. It's an uphill battle for me. I really genuinely enjoy the flight model and find it comparible to my other sim experiences of the P-51D in CFS...It is a solid plane and rings true of comments I have read about her being 'honest' and forgiving. The words that Bud Anderson used about it being the plane that could make both good AND mediocre pilots seem better than they really are is not something that is shining through at the moment.

I have also flown the 109 and find it to be more enjoyable and deadly than before the patch, which I personally applaud. I am glad for 109 pilots...

However, compared to many or most of the 109 variants, I find that the P-51 is outclassed.

I usually try to get my team as high as possible and find that we have limited success against the 109.. Pilot error on my part?--quite possible, but I think I am doing well by trying to maintain high speed and engage the enemy on my terms, staying light on the controls as much as allowable maintain momentum
wherever possible.

I also admit, that it takes me a long time to get used to a new flight model and perfect it. Other tactics I have tried include use of combat flaps, no flaps, trim, speed windows, alt., and various maneuvers and still havent completely clicked with the plane yet.

For the little experience I have had in the 109, I am a much stronger pilot in it...

My experience tells me the 109 (esp the G) is by far the stronger plane in most ways.. It turns better (so far as I can see), climbs better, has good enough momentum to stick with the P-51 on the straight and level (esp if you make the mistake of getting caught on the deck) has better acceleration, and can stick with a P-51 enough in a dive to often become a nuisance..but even at high alt I dont notice (personally) a marked improvement in the P51 vs the 109..

What does the P-51 have? The P-51 has better visibilty.

Team tactics aside, the 109G is a P-51 killer!

So what's my point? Well, it is simply that everything we read (at least as Americans) points to the P-51 as being the better (or best) plane in WWII. I continue to read from pilots that "it could do everything the 109 could, but do it a little better." This I have read from numerous pilots of the day..

So the question becomes, are they talking more about the "B" than the "D"? Actually, that's one question.

The next question is, that perhaps the P-51 won through glamour alone, associated with it's range ability to accompany bombers deep into Germany and hense turn the tides somewhat in the air over Germany. Is it possible that along with the press that made Americans proud and the Allies sigh from relief, that it somehow became the 'everything' plane in the minds of Americans? Kind of like the winner makes his own history?

The only thing that helps come to mind is that by the end of the War, the US pilots were probably the best trained in the world, employing tactics that acheived victories over an enemy that was told to tuck-tale-and-run (only to engage the bombers), whenever confronted by an Allied fighter. Of course, if you turn and run or dive from a P-51, you are in trouble. Is this what gave the P-51 is somewhat stellar reputation? A mixture of pride and better dogfigther tactics and training?

The last variable, of course, is the game and the flight model. I simply do not pretend to know enough to question the flight model, but what I see is inconsistent with what I have heard and read. Again, I am still trying to get the hang of this beautiful plane. Equally, I am happy about the improvements to the 109...

Interested to read others' responses...

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olaleier
12-29-2003, 10:40 AM
I haven't flown the Mustang online, but in QMB against different Gs and the K4, turning and burning has worked quite well, never going into scissors but countering with high barrel rolls.

But when I fly the K4 online, I find Mustangs pretty easy bait, apart from a slight disadvantage is speed (which is probably due to my lack of E-skill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

As for "the plane that won the war", I think good tactics, numbers, inferior German training/maintenance etc contributed greatly to the Mustangs superiority, in addition to any "built-in" advantages.

Anyway, in QMB against the Zero is a different matter, you are properly out-turned! You have to rely on your speed and run away quite alot! Very exciting! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

crazyivan1970
12-29-2003, 10:42 AM
Allow to disagree with you sir. Being a dedicated LW jock since day one...still quiet often i am forced to fly on allied side due to odds and i find P-51 as a very capable fighter. It does have its own weaknesses, but by all means it is not inferior to 109`s, any of them. I mean there are situations where P-51 will get its behind handed to it... but that is all up to its pilot. BTW P-51 is my fav ride on allied side. I prefer it to any soviet birds, including La7, Yak3...etc.

V!
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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

BM357_Raven
12-29-2003, 11:02 AM
Yeah, I have flown against AI and seem to fair ok there as well...Not that I dont get shot down...Online, however, I have experienced when I fly the 109 and/or against it, that it is stronger than the P-51.

And crazyivan, Lemme kinda correct what I said (you may disagree with this as well), that the 109G is better, in my experiences both with it and against it,-- enough to say it outclasses the P-51.. Does it grossly outclass it imo? Nah.., but enough to make it feel like the stronger plane.. Speed and agility seem to grace the 109 whereas the P-51 is fast, but not as fast as I thought it would be in relation to the 109...

Not too shy to ask for tricks..if you have any though.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And btw, I have to agree with you on your pick of allied plane. In addition to the P-51, I also love the P-47. On the German side, I prefer the 190 (it's so cool) but fair much better in the 109 by far. In general, I tend to like the heavier planes or the ones that do not easily succumb (sp?) to the whims of the pilot and his imputs--planes you have to work a little more to get what you want out of them..

The yak3 was a plane I quickly grew bored of once I got proficient with it because it was an 'anywhere/anything' type plane, imo.. But I certainly understand why people like the Yak and the La..neither of which I have flown, post-patch...

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[This message was edited by BM357_Raven on Mon December 29 2003 at 10:12 AM.]

BM357_Raven
12-29-2003, 11:05 AM
And btw,

I love this game even if my fav plane is not what I imagine.. Not to be defeated, however, I continue to play with different trim settings and various combinations.... I think no matter what, you will see me in the P-51, even if it ends up that I am right about the relative strengths between the two planes.

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Korolov
12-29-2003, 11:08 AM
You pony boys think you OWN the place.

Well thats WRONG! Us Tbolt pilots OWN the place! :P

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heywooood
12-29-2003, 11:09 AM
Raven -
A slanted press?... in America?...
The P-51D variants were all well suited to arial combat - especially in their role as bomber escorts. Many actual combat pilots' accounts exist and can be read in current publications, Flight Journal / Aviation History,etc.. It was a powerful, capable airplane. So was the Bf109 series, as was the Fw190 series. But there was an attrition of experienced combat pilots in Germany. Remember, Germany was also fighting on two fronts and had fewer pilot resources than the allies. So while their aircraft variants were improving - their pilots' skills were reduced overall by attrition. It is possible then to beleive that the US had better equipment, especially if the kill ratio seems to support it. But as the war went on, US pilots gained a crucial advantage in numbers and experience.
As comparison - look at what German ace pilots were able to accomplish in the 109s over Russia. Again I think attrition turned the tide. The men and women who took part in The Great Patriotic War have good reason to be proud - what amazing resilience and fortitude.
Bottom line - the Mustang is an awesome weapon in experienced hands - but so too is the Me109

Eagle_361st
12-29-2003, 11:11 AM
To be successful in the P-51 you must keep three things at all times;
1) Speed, it is life for any a/c and it's pilot but more so for the P-51, at high speeds nothing will turn with it or respond like it.
2) Altitude, keeping your altitude and sticking with BnZ tactics are the order, nothing will zoom climb like the P-51.
3) Patience, the hardest to overcome, do not get sucked into a low level turn and burn contest, keep your "E", keep your speed and keep your altitude. You will find that diving on your opponents, making a good pass and immediately returning to your safety is very demanding, but will net you the most gains.

While the P-51 is a wonderful a/c and one of my favorites, she has her weaknesses like any other as well. But what she does have and used properly will leave you in the top spot. Nothing short of the ME 262, 109 K4 and the FW 190D(45 model) can keep up with her flown properly.

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TX-Zen
12-29-2003, 11:13 AM
Consider that many of the people you meet online in the 109's are veteran LW jocks and have learned to fly them to their limits. The 109 is definately not a noob plane, so I suspect you will tend to find more pilots having their wits about them than you might when meeting other types.

I personally think the mustang is the better of the two choices. It is more forgiving on the controls, requires less precision in gunnery, has a better forward view than the 109 and I think outclimbs most of the G series.

Most people tend to be very fast when they climb and soon run out of speed which then can make the bandit appear to outclimb you through performance alone. It's really a matter of technique...all planes are effectively zoom climbing if they are above their optimum climb speed when climbing. Speed drops off until it ends up around whatever speed the plane is most efficient at that, then it continues to climb at near that speed for a long time.

Perhaps in the area of climbing the 109 pilots are more aware of the specific numbers than you might be with the P51? Just a suggestion to think about, I can't say what the optimal climb speed for the mustang is but when I hit 280-300kph I can sustain that speed for a long time if need be.

Good post btw, I think it's well written and you ought to get some good feedback.

S~!

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BM357_Raven
12-29-2003, 11:17 AM
Thanks guys...so far I find I agree a little with everything that is said here, but...more posts, more oppinions, please..

And Eagle, tell me more about your zoom angle and speed when you pull out of the boom.. Again, I am trying to get it...just need some solid detailed tips...

Thanks!

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BM357_Raven
12-29-2003, 11:22 AM
Totally willing to be corrected here, but it seems to be around 175 mph with combat flaps...

I've tried flaps all the way up and higher airspeeds, but I tend to fair better so far at this speed and flap setting.

Does anyone have a better speed or slightly more accurate #?

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crazyivan1970
12-29-2003, 11:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
You pony boys think you OWN the place.

Well thats WRONG! Us Tbolt pilots OWN the place! :P

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TBolts...pfff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Anyways, as for topic. P-51 has significant advantage in high speed handling over late G models and K4. It doesn`t suffer from concrete elevator and blackout is not as bad as in G10 and up. Yes, G6-AS and G2 are pretty agile and high speed tricks wont fly that easy. But pony is capable of outrunning both in level flight, and that`s an advantage. P-51 is not really turnfighting material, but with use of combat flaps and gentle handling of the stick it can follow almost all G models except G2, which is king of turnfight IMO. I am not sure how you fly P-51 and how you engage your enemy... but believe it or not i fly P-51 in the same manner as i fly K4 or late G models. Alt = life and believe me, pony performs much better up there then down below. Guns are absolutely deadly IMO and unlike 109`s you can open from 300m and turn opponent into shreds. Doesn`t matter what it is...190 or 109...
Also i have to point out that difficulty settings are one of the key factors too. Setting that i fly under (cockpit, no externals) allowing an element of surprise, which usually is a breaking factor. One pass in Pony and with the correct approach enemy will be crippled or even destroyed and that`s how it should be IMO. P-51 is a very quiet plane, unlike 109`s and 190s and your appearance could be totally unexpected. On my server, i noticed that alot of people don`t even bother climbing ... they get like 1-2k of alt and jump right into furball...why?? You can get 5-6k, still see furball on the ground and keep making passes instead of losing speed in turnfight to the point of stall. Also that will allow you to control high sphere of the fight in case high bogie will show up.

Just a few observations.

V!
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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

BM357_Raven
12-29-2003, 11:24 AM
What is the average rate of climb (experienced in the game) by 109G-10 pilots, please?

It seems like the 109 just shoots right up there when I fly it, but I dont know the concrete data..

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BfHeFwMe
12-29-2003, 11:31 AM
If your running around with full fuel bags, you deserve to be kicked. Get caught with more than half a fuel load and your dead vs. the 109, half and your even, quarter and you should own it.

An experten 109 driver will beat a 109 while flying a pony any time.

BM357_Raven
12-29-2003, 11:35 AM
Ahhh, no, trust me I'm a climber. I usually, small maps allowing, will 'run away' and climb to about 20,000 feet. Then I try to stay as fast as possible and watch for the first tier of 109 climbers.. Not to say that there arent times where a 109 will still bounce me from higher..

Often I am forced into engagement before I am ready, but I always try to have speed and try to extend on the horizontal when possible, fearing that the 109s will catch me if I climb (which they usually do).. I fly full real, btw, dont even have text telling me prop-pitch or engine%..

And I am not saying you are wrong, but one guy was saying last night that the 109-G10 does NOT black out as readily as the P-51.. We thought to test it this week by eliminating black-outs.. Report back to you our findings..

What manifold and RPM readings do people try to achieve in a climb? Where is the P-51's greatest power output that you can tell?

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BM357_Raven
12-29-2003, 11:37 AM
Yah, fuel at 25%...is all I ever need. would I have better momentum with more fuel I wonder?

And thanks for the words of 109 beating a 109 pilot in a 51.. Doesnt make me feel good though :S, lol....

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JG14_Josf
12-29-2003, 11:50 AM
If IL2compare is of any use then the P-51 outclimbs, outruns, and out turns the 109G6 in most situations.

Since speed is a big advantage; a level extension before zooming will tend to create more separation which is good for safely regaining relative possition, or angles, on a pitch back.

Since climb is an advantage; an unloaded extension at the best climb angle will tend to increase separation and altitude before the zoom/reverse.

Since turn performance with flaps is an advantage; the zoom can be followed by a level turn to regain angles.

Energy loss during maneuvering is not shown in Il2compare. If the P-51 is modeled with greater loss of energy during maneuvering then it figures that someone more capable in a 109 will have a hard time gaining proficiency in the P-51. One must learn to conserver energy and learn how to judge relative energy states. Once the energy factor tips in favor of the lighter plane the heavier plane must dissengage and only reengage if the energy balance favors the heavy plane.

Rolling scissors for defense and sustained turn techniques should work effectively in the P-51 against the 109G6. Both are high speed corner velocity type maneuvers that only sacrafice speed for altitude and use gravity to assist reversals for angles.

BM357_Raven
12-29-2003, 12:03 PM
Rgr, I am questioning the printed data, somewhat.

The extension so far, seems like my only friend, but I have not have good luck with the climb. Usage of flaps will gain me in the short run, but it bleeds excessive speed it seems to the point where I am in danger.. Excelleration in a dive in this situation has not been sufficient (that I can tell) to pull away from the 109 quickly enough.. and from my experience, so far a rolling scissors is the kiss of death against the 109 and should not be performed..

Also, unless I am using the wrong combinations, I tend to believe that I am correct in saying the 109 outclimbs the P-51..Most people have argued against this, which probably means I have not found the best settings for the best sustained climb rate, yet... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Still probing for more insights.. Thanks all, keep 'em coming!

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p1ngu666
12-29-2003, 12:15 PM
109 experten are toughies to crack http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
similer planes in performance. but p51 u need speed, like a 190 350-400kph and it starts to come alive http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
bnz based energy tatics should be used for both

Jaws2002
12-29-2003, 12:22 PM
There is another thing with the excellent real life P-51 advantages. In real life pony met a lot of 109's G6, not many G10's and very few 109-K. Adding the huge numerical advantage, and the quality of the pilots, the results are understandable.

BM357_Raven
12-29-2003, 12:30 PM
interesting...hmmm..

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BfHeFwMe
12-29-2003, 12:49 PM
Try your radiators full open and power full boost, she won't overheat if you fly it smooth, you get the extra speed and very little extra drag.

If your blacking out, you got a different fight style. I'll fight it just like a 109, using the zoom climb from speed for advantage. 51 has better roll when faster, and the trick in diving it, is do only shallow dives of around 5 degrees pitch nose down and no more. It beats everthing in those dives, you dive steep and most high performers will stay right with you. You got to take advantage of the low drag design, so dive shallow and smoke em. Most types can't quite dump the drag in a real shallow accelleration dive like the mustang can.

Good tactic is use the shallow dive for seperation, don't get caught slow or be turning from a disadvantaged or neutral position to start with. If your already fast, takes no time to open it up. Than level and run a while, depending on what model of 109 your up against, your faster than most in the level at speed runs. Once at speed start a shallow climb with good seperation, pitch up about 40 degrees climb, invert around 200kph, do a loose split S without pulling any elevator, nice wide and loose let the nose drop on it's own. Once you get close to bottom and the speed is high pull hard for a front quarter deflection shot. You can pull much better G and get a superior deflection on a 109 any day, plus you have more guns.

Don't blow the speed, pass up the shot over losing too much of it if closure is too quick. You have the option of staying low and fast, nine of ten the sucker blew most of his speed cutting hard and inefficient inside trying to intercept your reversal. When he settles in behind after pulling the high G, go straight up with all the speed you picked up and blow his doors off.

A fast loose split S in a mustang looks just like a sling shot launch, you can ratchet it up as you get better at it. You come out of it as greased lightning. Trick is don't touch that elevator until you up at 500+ with gravity working on your side, than you can pull to your hearts delight without losing much.

Fight it above 4500 if possible, turbo shifts a bit below that, much improved performance. Once you win the battle for height and got the better energy, not a problem working his six. Although a 109 is better at manouver, it isn't that much better that it can easily shake a mustang on six that has better energy.

LilHorse
12-29-2003, 12:55 PM
From the perspective of a 109 guy who's tried the P-51 a few times online I have to say that alt. and speed are everything in the Pony. Great high speed handling is where the 51 excells. In RL the P-51 also had an advantage in high alt. performance over the G series till the G-10, 14 and K4. And the ponies,as was mentioned, didn't meet many of them. Though I can't say that a realistic disparity exists between the two types at high alt. in FB, I'd say it's still your friend in the P-51. BnZ all the way with it. Get caught low and slow and you're dead meat.

And as far as climb is concerned, yeah, the 109 is a great climber. Whether it's better in the zoom climb I can't say. But anyway, speed, alt. and patience in the P-51 are the keys. Oh yeah, and team tactics.

BM357_Raven
12-29-2003, 01:44 PM
Rg on the team tactics.. That and alt have been our only defense so far.. Mind you, we ARE up against some pretty veteran pilots who know their plane (I am still getting to know the P-51)...

And BfHeFwMe: This is exactly what I think I was looking for.. Already printed it out... Now you aren't holding anything else out from me are you? Lol...Seriously, this is volumes on it's own... Thank you S~

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LeadSpitter_
12-29-2003, 01:48 PM
dont forget the gsuit the p51 pilots wore, which of course isnt simulated in fb just the p51ds weakness's and gave the p51d an extra G or less depending on the pilot which is a huge advantage

In all the guncam footage i seen 108 cannon hits to p51ds and p47s I never seen the engine just die but big flameless bursts and wing and tail panels exploding off

with all the guncamera footage i have of 109 190s being killed the plane always bursts into a huge fireball from wing hits and center droptank hits. Also .50s sheer wings off. But of course thats explosive incideary .50s which i dont think are modeled in fb just the old steel tips seeing the tiny flash hits and not exploding rounds

I have to agree with you the 109s are so easy to fly now and in manual forget about it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, the g2 with gunpods is outturning most allied fighters with combat flaps and trim. I admit im enjoying it since i fly `190s and 109s the majority of the time but think it is going to change in the future seeing how much fms change from patch to patch its like relearning each fm again

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Maple_Tiger
12-29-2003, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_Raven:
Totally willing to be corrected here, but it seems to be around 175 mph with combat flaps...

I've tried flaps all the way up and higher airspeeds, but I tend to fair better so far at this speed and flap setting.

Does anyone have a better speed or slightly more accurate #?

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Im not 100% shure but i think i read some where that the pilots used Combat flaps at speeds below 400kmh TAS for manuverablity. I generaly dont like to Turn&Burn with the P-51, i will if there are no other enemy planes nearby and i know that i can out turn them.

Note: there are some planes that you realy should not turn fight with or get into a slow turn fight.

For example the La7, La5, Yaks, Curtane BF109's will out turn you at slow speeds. Why, the desine of these planes generate more lift then lets say the P-51.

I beleave you can turn fight with the Bf109K4, 10 and 14 or the the FW's, but you will need to deploy Combat flaps to do it.

Energy retention so so very important its not funny.

Remember that the BF109's can climb better. and if the pilots know there plane then they will fight in the Vertical. Thats why it is very very impotant not to play there game. Dont do vertical turns with them or go vertical with them in a fight. And dont dive away to escape or you have just lost the fight. The guy in the 109 will now BnZ you.

To help keep your E dont turn to to the piont where the P-51 starts to shake. Once shaking acurs then your wasting ur E. This is impportant if the BF109 is fighten in the vertical or at any time realy. Unless he is trying to Turn fight with you lol.

BM357_Raven
12-29-2003, 02:53 PM
BfHeFWMe, Do you notice any benefits from prop pitch.. I am still playing with it, but I am afraid I just dont see any benefit so far.. ;(

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Maple_Tiger
12-29-2003, 04:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_Raven:
BfHeFWMe, Do you notice any benefits from prop pitch.. I am still playing with it, but I am afraid I just dont see any benefit so far.. ;(

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I play around with the Prop Pitch to, but not in the way you might think.

1st, Combat RPM will give you the most power. This goes with any plane right. But Note: Manuel Prop Pitch in a BF109 you have to keep changing it so that it will stay with in a certane RPM.

while in a CSP(Constant Speed Proppelor)plane you dont need to constantly change the RPM. You just have to set your desired RPM for the P-51 and it will stay there. In a dive it will go 100 0r 200 over your desired setting, but thats it. There is know real manuel prop pitch for the Alied planes, but you can change the settings.

In real live pilots did not fly around with Combat RPM all the time. When im not climbing or anything i change the setting to 2700RPM(75%prop pitch) and it will stay there. This is a Cruizing RPM.

I dont even climb with combat RPM(100%prop pitch). Even with rad open and full 110% power you will eventualy over heat. I will usualy keep the RPM at 2900(90% prop pitch) and 105% power with rad open and you will not over heat when making a long climb.

Eagle_361st
12-29-2003, 06:38 PM
Raven,

Sorry for my delayed response been busy at work. But in answer to your question as far as dive speed and climb angle and such, I will share what I do. I am a serious speed demon, I always climb to at least 6k before engaging any bandits. Once I find the fight I single out opponents and dive on them with anywhere from 60-100% throttle depending on my airspeed before the dive. I like to line up before the dive by rolling over and assuring that everything is clear and that I do indeed have a good angle. If it is truly a 1v1 situation I go down from the top, aiming for a PK or taking a wing off. Once I get the shot off, I reverse my dive and firewall the throttle and climb anywhere from 25-45 degrees of climb just depending on my speed. If I reach over 800 Kph(which is my goal), I just go straight up at 35-45 degrees and always reach my original altitiude or even more sometimes. The level out at around 250 kph and gain speed and do it again if needed or gently climb up some more looking for more enemies to engage and do it all over again. There are times where I just prefer to Hammerhead the enemy until they are down, it just really depends on the situation and the environment, usually I use that tactic only when I have a full flight with me. I hope this helped a little, if you need more let me know.

~S!
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Eagle_361st
12-29-2003, 06:41 PM
Also I have found that leaving prop pitch at 100%, and leaving the Radiator on auto is the best. If you want to loiter then decrease your prop RPM, and set your throttle at around 60%. I can cruise around for a very long time on 25% fuel.

~S!
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BfHeFwMe
12-29-2003, 06:59 PM
Yeah, what he said, would leave it at 100% for combat, reduce only when conserving fuel for loiter time.

VF-152_LedDeath
12-29-2003, 07:55 PM
links for your P-51 knowledge enhancement (lol)

http://www.cebudanderson.com/

http://www.cebudanderson.com/ch1.htm (especially read this)

http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/

~S~ all

Hanni8
12-30-2003, 07:56 PM
Haven't flown yet the P-51 in FB, but know the 109 E-4/7 quite well (F and Gs only emphasize basic qualities).

The P-51 was not an uberplane, but rather a perfect fit for the US in 1944, where they needed a hihgh-altitude Fighter which could escort the Bombers all the way into every corner of the shrinking german Reich (The P-38s were prone to a bag full of problems at high altitude in the colder Northern climate). Above 7500 m it's speed advantage was around 80 km/h versus a standard 109 G-6 (Eric Brown). It had high cruising speed due to it's laminar flow low drag wing (Up to 3G and speeds above 300 mph the P-51 had unsurpassed energy retention). The ever shrinking Luftwaffe now had two formidable enemies: Masses of B-17 AND their escorts up in the skies waiting for them.
One of the often overlooked shortcomings of the german fighters was their shortrange which effectively denied or atleast hampered powerful concentrations. Moreover, in mid 1944 the far ranging P-51 started to aggresively screen ahead of the Bombers, often catching the Germans in the climb or even takeoff.

Of course the P-51 also (as every plane) was a compromise that was:
- Heavy weight (almost all US fighters) resulting in high wingloadings and relatively low Power to weight ratio
- Laminar flow type wingprofile becomes worse at higher AOAs then conventional profiles -&gt; thus real P-51 should not drop below 300 mph, because it needs forever to go above again.
- All fueltanks full, P-51 was prone to stickreversal because center of gravity was at it's rearmost margin. (Don't expect that in FB though)

As Mark Hanna (died in a Buchon 109) stated: If the P-51 is flown up to 3Gs in vertical manouvers it can retain it's energy, so the P-51 should be eminently suited for Bounce & Zoom attacks.

No slow turning battles vs. 109, especially Fs and early Gs.
Hit and Run tactics similar to FW190 are the way to go (Good SA necessary and patience and experience)

Greets

TheJayMan
12-30-2003, 09:48 PM
From online experience, I find the P-51 to be well-modeled and accurate relative to the 109 variants, and this comes from a huge Mustang fan. I'm speaking of an anecdotal, inductive analysis here. I'll leave the quantitative debate to folks like SkyChimp and others who are far more knowledgeable than me as to the data.

Its all about how you fly it. You have to employ "energy tactics," and that does not really mean BnZ, as this is just one limited aspect of the overall energy strategy. BnZ is absolutely NOT synonymous to energy tactics, and TnB is not synonymous with angles tactics. They are narrow subsets of the larger concepts. I mention this because I see this error made time and time again on these forums. I won't go into it, but read Shaw's book for the details.

As an example, the P-51 does not retain energy for long in the pure vertical, so it is not just as simple as keeping the fight in the vertical plane. The Mustang zooms better than anything, but do not make your zoom overly steep, as your momentum will quickly yield to gravity and the Mustang's weak acceleration. You should definitely NOT ever go into a loop or pure vertical in a P-51 while merged, as you can with the P-39. The P-51 cannot hang on its prop like an LA or a 109.

I find both high and low Yo-Yo's to be extremely effective in the P-51, against all but the best 109K pilots who know how to do the same thing. I am shocked at how many online pilots don't know the Yo Yo.

Another move that works great for extending is a gentle 5-15 degree nose-down attitude, which substantially increases Mustang acceleration and top speed without giving up much altitude. I can easily run away from any prop plane in the game with this tactic, especially when combined with very elongated, gentle, porpoising Yo Yo maneuvers to either direction. This characteristic is entirely consistent with anecdotal, real-world experiences. Another great energy move is the rolling scissors. You need to master these maneuvers to get the most of the P-51. It is a pure E fighter at 300-500kph. However, it quickly transitions to a really awesome angles fighter above 500kph. Feel free to engage in an angles battle with anybody, any plane, anywhere, anytime, at high speed in a P-51, but NOT below 3000m agl and sure as hell don't ever let your airspeed get below 400kph before returning to a strict energy regimen.

Finally, as far as online play versus real-life scenarios are concerned: In WWII, Mustang and TBolt pilots transited to and from the combat areas at 30K feet and HIGHER, an altitude that the Mustang could cruise at with total ease, which allowed them to catch huge gaggles of German fighters as they were climbing out to intercept the bomber streams. And often, these fighters were laden with external fuel tanks, rockets, and gunpods that made things much worse. This explains stories by Yeager, Anderson, Johnson, Olds, and many others where they were able to tear into formations hell-bent and outnumbered, and make quick kills. Imagine what a LW pilot must have felt like as he was struggling to climb at 25k feet and was being dived upon by Mustangs. The fact of the matter was that most fights started with a vast energy advantage to the Americans, and this quickly negated much of the performance disparities of even the better LW fighters.

Another observation is that I think we all have to admit to ourselves that many of us are really, really good online pilots! I would never make the direct comparison to real pilots, don't get me wrong. But tactical skill and spatial awareness are very advanced with IL-2FB pilots as compared to the average combat pilot in WWII, when taken in context of the relative opponents for each. Particularly on Hyperlobby, you simply encounter a lot of flight sim pilots who have racked up hundreds, if not thousands of hours flying fighters online. Most real life fighter pilots didn't have nearly that much experience in actual combat. This is a big deal must not be discounted. So even though we aren't pulling huge G's and our knees aren't shaking on the rudder pedals, surging with the fear and adrenaline of real combat, many of us have skills far surpassing most WWII pilots.

So try this just to make my point... Set up a massive 16 vs 16 fight between 109K's and P-51's. Make one group of each Ace, one group Vet, and two groups Average skill for both sides. Set the altitude to 10K meters. Now keep your wingman with you at all times ("cover me" command), keep your IAS above 300, employ Yo Yo's, strive to keep as much altitude as possible, pick targets that are chasing others and don't see you, and try to identify targets that are high relative to you and low on E. Only make hit and run passes, never follow a 109 down if he breaks. If you do this, you will end the mission alive, with 3 to 5 kills, several of your squad still alive, and the 109's will be wiped out. This is a lot closer to reality than anything you will ever encounter online, and the P-51 dominates in the hands of a pilot that keeps these rules in mind. Want to make it even more realistic? Make another group of P-51 pilots Veteran, and make the 4th group of 109's Rookies. Now you'll see kill ratios like the real deal.

American pilots were trained for a year at least, with 6 months advanced training real monoplane fighters, before they went to a frontline unit. By late '44, 23 year old American pilots with college degrees and a full year of training were intercepting 19 year old German kids with 6 weeks of stick time in a 109.

So there are many, many factors to consider.

TheJayMan
12-30-2003, 10:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
Good tactic is use the shallow dive for seperation, don't get caught slow or be turning from a disadvantaged or neutral position to start with. If your already fast, takes no time to open it up. Than level and run a while, depending on what model of 109 your up against, your faster than most in the level at speed runs. Once at speed start a shallow climb with good seperation, pitch up about 40 degrees climb, invert around 200kph, do a loose split S without pulling any elevator, nice wide and loose let the nose drop on it's own. Once you get close to bottom and the speed is high pull hard for a front quarter deflection shot. You can pull much better G and get a superior deflection on a 109 any day, plus you have more guns.

Don't blow the speed, pass up the shot over losing too much of it if closure is too quick. You have the option of staying low and fast, nine of ten the sucker blew most of his speed cutting hard and inefficient inside trying to intercept your reversal. When he settles in behind after pulling the high G, go straight up with all the speed you picked up and blow his doors off.

A fast loose split S in a mustang looks just like a sling shot launch, you can ratchet it up as you get better at it. You come out of it as greased lightning. Trick is don't touch that elevator until you up at 500+ with gravity working on your side, than you can pull to your hearts delight without losing much.

Fight it above 4500 if possible, turbo shifts a bit below that, much improved performance. Once you win the battle for height and got the better energy, not a problem working his six. Although a 109 is better at manouver, it isn't that much better that it can easily shake a mustang on six that has better energy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen brother, that's what I'm talking about in my previous post. I didn't catch your post before I posted mine, sorry about that. You seem to be describing high Yo Yo maneuvers and some very advanced energy tactics combined with angles when appropriate. I like it. If we all fly the P-51 like this, only the very best 109 jocks can get away alive. Believe me.

-JayMan

DONB3397
12-30-2003, 11:00 PM
This is an interesting thread, with good analysis of flight characteristics and tactics related to the P-51. Stay high, go fast, boom and zoom.

Hanni8, who flies 109s (but not 51s) in FB, ticked of a clear set of P-51 pros and cons consistent with most of the articles and books I've seen on the subject. But there isn't much here about the 109 which flew much longer in more variants (E thru K) than most allied and Russian figthers. In FB, the Gs and Fs climb well, turn inside P-47s and 51s down low, and accelerate quickly. In the hands of experienced pilots, the real plane produced the highest scoring aces in history.

It would be interesting to see the same objective analysis of performance characteristics and tactics for the 109.

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Ugly_Kid
12-31-2003, 02:01 AM
P-51 does not outturn nor outclimb Bf-109G. The latter is more true than the former. Mustang can outturn almost any opponent, including Ki in a high-speed downward spiral with max. gee, thx to the elevator. This is a small advantage and has o be enjoyed carefully since altitude does not last forever. To employ P-51 superior high speed handling you have to have speed and that speed has to be high. In order to sustain it through manouvers you have to have alt. So effectively you're playing against time.

P-51 has to be flown very similar to FW, only you can't use H2H passes but since both of them climb relatively slowly they have to have good initial position and speed at all times. If you get tied up you can't get away since you can't climb away and also because of this you can't outaccelerate anyone, even in initial dive you're loosing. Only change to get away is steep downward spiral and a really long dive. If you initiate low level fight with P-51 you're going to have a hard time, if you do this on co-alt or alt-disadvantage against Bf-109G you're dead.

Raiden48
12-31-2003, 02:52 AM
In good hands a K4 wil win

BM357_Raven
01-01-2004, 03:22 AM
TheJayMan, excellent post. Much of what you said, for example, about training and tactics of P-51 pilots v 109 pilots is exactly what I have discovered in my various readings. I have also made the same comment, that FB pilots (in a very unfair sense) are better trained (as far as the video game goes) than most (or all) of WWII pilots-- simply due to the fact that they have more hours of virtual-combat. I thought that was a particularly clever comment.

Somewhere I recall reading about one WWII fighter pilot said something to the effect of:

"If only we had a way to practice fighter tactics on a more continuous basis, we all would have spent every waking hour practicing."

I thought of forgotten battles and reflected how different the world has become 50-60 years later. And thought to myself, "if only they had had FB." lol... I know they had methods of training including planes that towed the targets, and the camera-training method.

The 109 pilots I fly against are top notch for sure. So it's not like I dont have my hands full, but I cant even show them qualitative resistance in a P-51.

The small downward pitch was not something that was intuitive to me, and might end up being the missing link to tapping the P-51 for me.

Last night my squad mates and I took the 109G2 against the P-51 at various altitudes only to find that for each of us, we were almost always the loser in the P-51 and the victor in the 109.. I can dance circles around the P-51, and when she runs, I can stick with her enough to be a major danger in the 109. But we did not employ the slight downward pitch, I must admit.

The P-51 looks good, has great visibility, pleanty of fuel, but not the kind of guts I was hoping. I am not trying to blame a flight model, either. Nor would I want to be such an enthusiast of this plane type that I am blind its imperfections.

Recently, I came across a place where you can fly 'authentic' mustangs. Really they are modified for their current role and allow for two people in the cockpit. When I mentioned that I was going to plan for a 1 hour flight in a P-51 in Kissimmee, FL next year, a pilot friend of mine told me that he had another friend who had once had the same fantasy. When his friend finally flew the P-51, he was very dissappointed, saying he really expected a lot more power and maneuverability from the plane. He said his image of the P-51 had forever been tainted. So now I am not certain about making the big investment for 30 minutes to an hour's worth of disappointment. Where was I going with that? Ah yes, simply that the idea of the plane and the reality might very well be two totally different things.

Perhaps, it is as much the glamour, the luck, the training and tactics that made the plane a 'super-plane' in the imagination of the American..

The 5-15% downward pitch might be the missing piece to this equation for me.

I really want to thank those of you who have posted here. Although, I feel I have a certain understanding of the game, the history, and so forth, it is good to find people who are willing to lend their knowledge to help fill in the gaps to my to my over-all understanding.

I guess we are all students here... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Hanni8
01-01-2004, 09:15 PM
Good posts !

I love the 109 in FB and very much appreciate the real P-51 D (together with the Focke the two most beautiful fighter planes i've ever seen..(well, the P-38 for instance is the best looking plane in flight when seen almost from the front), the P-51 eminating grace and generosity on the ground, but is somewhat hampered by the bellycooler in the air, while the Focke in the air, is pure beauty from some angles, and Hunter like from others. The 109 E is not so spectular visually, as the F and early Gs.

The 109s situation in mid 43 up to end 44 relative to it's foes became worse and worse. The perspective from the top of the Luftwaffe was: In 43/44 the anglo-allieds had gained a considerable speed and altitude advantage thanks to the formidable Merlin 63 which powered both the Spitfire IX, and the P-51 B,D (Licensed by Packard and called Packard Merlin)j, and the "Turbo" driven rest of ETO US Planes. This was very bad news for the Luftwaffe since the one with an altitude and speed advantage dictates the fight, no matter, in what jnks, tricks and twists and turning on a dime one self may be superior..
So the 109 and 190 were decaying stars in a crucial period of the war.
Both the 109 and 190 regained some of the lost ground at the very end of the war (K-4, FW 190 D-Series and formidable TA 152 with the superb Jumo 213 E Series and of course the Me 262).

Why is speed, altitude and range more important then anything else in an airwar ?
Speed: You can engage, disengage a slower enemy at will (-&gt; Good example 109 vs Rata or the Chaika), thus dictate the fight -&gt; thus initiative is your hands -&gt; You're the Hunter the other the hunted no matter what.

Altitude: You can trade altitude for speed and vice versa, effectively emphasizing speed advantage, And you have a save refuge which belongs to you exclusively !

Range: You can concentrate longer over time at a given spot thus effectively boosting your battlefield presence. Your enemy will need more planes of shorter range, more infrastrucure to create the same result with shorter ranging planes -&gt; uneconomical -&gt; bad in a prolonged war.

All this is of minor importance in FB style airwar offline or online. Because of this planes like the 109, Yak-3 and the like seem so strong whereas in real they weren't anymore, for instance the Yak-3 in fact was the offspring of an outdated airpower concept (but it was the best at hand the given moment for the Soviets). The 109 being outdated in 1942 in a time where already the 262 was flying.

The 109 with DB 605 A had engine problems up to end 43 which stemmed from crankshaft oscillations destroying the bearings (Marseille was one of the prominent victims), thus DB 605 A was restricted to 2600 RPM up to atleast Aug. 43 (A conference of Gen.Fld. Milch indicates as late as Sept. 43). Solution was a strengthening of the crankshaft and some measures for the bearings which seemed to have solved the problems. Still engine-Life for a german engine was 100 hours between major overhaul vs. around 1000 hours for anglo-allieds in 44. In 1943/44 you could not intercept a Spitfire IX or P-51 or even B-17s flying between 6000-8000 m other then waiting for them, only you had almost no time for concentration because a bomberformation could change it's course very quickly, so you had to guess where will they attack, what is their target ? Shall i concentrate my fighters (which can stay in the air only a shorttime as a whole) in Northern France ? Is the Bomberforce heading there, the Mainattack ? Or shall i commit them over Northern Holland ? Will they eventually target something deep inside the Reich and should i better wait ? So to be on the save side you order a Gruppe or two to Northern France, some to Northern Holland unable to concentrate loosing the battle but not your head http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.
Tricky from the beginning, and to be succesful one needed not 1500 shortrange fighters but instead atleast 3000 (for which no fuel would have been available from Mid 44 on..). Strategically outmanouvred, no way out of the trap, other then by miracle !!

Luckily in FB Offline and Online matters aren't that complicated so the 109 can shine with their good subtle qualities.

- Excellent, although not best, Stallfighter due the very gentle Stall, even under acceleration. All the ETO US planes have no ground here, P-51 exhibiting same snap of wing as FW 190 in accelerated stall, which means certain death below 300 m. (Plane effectively doing a quick 180? Roll on the back, in case of P-51 entering a nose high Spin (Falt Spin), when not countered immidiately.

- Very effective rudder at mid and low speeds. (Seems the same for me in FB. !!!!ATTENTION SPOILER COMING !!!!



In Offline, slipping drains the AI up to atleast Veteran level of all ammo...hehe, good to know in an emergency)

!!! SPOILER ENDS HERE !!!!

- Very good acceleration due to high Power to Weight (In FB, Fockes seem to acclerate better, but no proof, anybody hard fact ?)

- Superb climb, G-6 only beaten by Spit XIV, G-2, G-10 and K superior climb, only Tempest on par. All Me 109 also had a very steep angle of climb. In FB: Two Hammerheads in succession usually are sufficient to gain enough E advantage vs. superior AI-Enemies (Yak, LA and all this evil breed..)

- Good, but not best dive (Focke, P-51, P-47 being superior, Spit being inferior). In FB i have the slight believe that the 109 dives very well, i can reach astronomical speeds even from 1500 m with an E (Have to test that, have the impression accel. is best with very very low Prop settings or even idle). With the fast proppitch change in manual, one can really outfly the powerenvelope of the engine fully (Transitions from level to dive or level to dive or climb).
- Good weapons plattform (In FB: The 109 E atleast is a precision tool in that respect !)
- Decent firepower (Cannons are the way to go, E very good with two of them, one short tip on the button with good aim and almost everything below two engines and the Jug desintegrates or burns), light MGs as marker weapon very good, alos one can lure a fleeing enemy back into the fight with them very effectively.

I think the seducing qualities of the 109 lie in her strong developed personality. As Dickfeld characterized her in comparison to the Focke: The 109 was like a suit you wore her, if you knew her she was very sensitive, responsive, and fast. The 190 on the other hand seemed more raw and heavy (strangely, many converting Me Pilots state the Focke being "slower" and "heavier"). I think in FB to some extent the 109 shows the same qualities.

She is a good Angle and E-Fighter, and that makes her a good beginner plane in my eyes in FB, because one can exercise both ways (and the necess. intermediate states) of conducting a fight without changing the mount. Moreover i prefer her slightly over the 190 (which i like for aerobatics, man, what crazy manouvers one can do in a Focke in FB, as one could in real !) because she is available during the whole campaign.
If i know an Emil well, transition to the F and G will be pure pleasure (more of the good, well almost -&gt; cannons down to one na, na).
The P-51 B/D in comparison has her place, but the Focke is the better E-Fighter (Hunter) in the end, weighing all factors in FB (Faster low, better climb low, in short just the better plane below 3000 m). The P-51 is too specialized in my eyes (Altitudes above 5000 m, which in FB are a pain in the as visually) to really become a major FB-plane, atleast if simulated correctly (speed, climb).

Greets

HellToupee
01-01-2004, 09:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hanni8:
- Superb climb, G-6 only beaten by Spit XIV, G-2, G-10 and K superior climb, only Tempest on par. All Me 109 also had a very steep angle of climb. In FB: Two Hammerheads in succession usually are sufficient to gain enough E advantage vs. superior AI-Enemies (Yak, LA and all this evil breed..)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

G6 wasnt a good climber, it was outclimbed by a spitfire Mk IX, the XIV was close to the k4.

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DONB3397
01-01-2004, 11:48 PM
I think threads like this are why I come to this forum. Opinions, even passionate defenses of one's views, are fine. But, it's more valuable for me when ppl can lay out their views with references and data points to back them, and do it without getting excited or hostile.

This thread asked about the 109G vs. P-51D. Was it asking about the real world? Or FB modeling? Fuel differences, mechanics and logistics, manufacturing quality, pilot training and conditions all affected the results when these two planes met in reality.

FB is a great sim and wonderful, even educational entertainment. I've been into flight sims forever, and still get excited when I get into a hard fight in FB. When I don't survive I blame the plane, the flight model, even the developer...anything but my mistakes.

In the end, however, it seems unrealistic to base an opinion of a plane or battles solely on our experiences here.

That's a good thing, cuz I've been creamed in both these planes. It has to be the flight models, no the developer...

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
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JG14_Josf
01-02-2004, 01:29 AM
DONB3397,

Thanks for the honest input.

If you want to improve; you must be open to an honest assesment of the way things really are, in any competitive venture.

My own progress, in trying to be competitive in this endeavor, has been a long series of realiztions of what definititly is not going to lead to success.

Limiting the need to relearn those realizations helps mucho.

If you want to know why you are not winning:

Look in the mirror http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BM357_Raven
01-02-2004, 11:09 PM
DONB3397:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This thread asked about the 109G vs. P-51D. Was it asking about the real world? Or FB modeling? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno...perhaps a little of both, but more of an observation and a probe for other insights to help me understand if my conception of the P-51 is based more on the writings P-51 fans or otherwise. I suppose my thoughts are teetering between "does this plane simply not live up to it's name," or "is something about the way the game is setup," or "am I just simply flying the plane wrong?" And before several of you answer let us collectively assume that it is probably the last. No matter, I continue to practice and employ different settings, but man.. It is not looking as bright for me in the P-51 as I was hoping.. Regardless, I love the plane and expect I will stick with it and only skip to another plane when I can no longer take the punishment. Either that or I will crack the secrets of the P-51 and take to the skies with fury and destruction and devistate everyone who dares to enter my vacinity!!! Wow, I've got cheesecake in the fridge...brb...

I can lay the P-51 to rest (I mean really thow it down) when I fly the 109 against it, but when I am in the P-51 I need so much room I feel like I need to fly onto the next map or something and come back tomorrow..

When I engage, I am in such trouble if the 109 has considerable energy as well. I was unaware of a ceiling that (I think someone said around 22,000--but I have to go back and look) when the 109 and P-51 engage the P-51 loses an advantage....Gotta go back and reference that.

Even in books that provide plane histories with their respective specifications, the presentation of the P-51 is often: "arguably the best fighter plane of the war..." or "..the best fighter plane of WWII.." or "..the plane that won the war.." or even "..able to outperform the 109 in nearly every way.." I admit it sounds exaggerated to me, and I have read things that counter these statements...But not many.

I cant point to specifics, but anyone who reads about the P-51 can identify with what I am saying, I am sure to some extent; that the P-51 is highly praised by extensive amounts of literature....Man I love that plane..lol.

NOW, I am not saying that I dont understand the strategic value the P-51 presented the Allies in its ability to travel deep in to German with B-17 (even landing in Soviet territory in many cases). I believe it was a plane that was a good plane to fly in a nerve-racking dogfight because it was so easy to handle.. And that could lead to victories..

And further I understand how its 'range factor' alone could lead to the supporting press of the day (and even today)-- boasting and glamourizing the P-51.. And after all it was one of our most modern planes and a plane the US banked on helping to win the strategic bombing campaign AND a plane that was on the winning side. So it was logical to play the plane up.. Besides, the plane was just plain sexy (plane sexy?) and was one that looked good in any photo--as the look of a real war winner imo...whatever that's worth..lol..

In closing, I know each plane in FB has its strengths and weaknesses. I was just prepared for the P-51 to be stronger in terms of inertia. But I'll keep working it.

In the meantime this has been a really 'professional' thread and I am glad to be a small part of it...

S~ ALL! (oh yeah and join the Blazing Magnums) lol!

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Tully__
01-02-2004, 11:44 PM
I'm a competent pilot but I am DEFINITELY not a great pilot. I find the P-51 to be one of the easiest allied aircraft to control an encounter v. any of the 109's if flown with something close to historical tactics.

Many seem to think that energy fighting consists soley of B & Z. This is not the case. A clear example is the rolling scissors, which is an energy tactic if flown correctly. I often use this (on a much larger scale than articles on the tactic generally suggest) with some success in P-51's.

Success in the engagement consists (in my mind) as much in not letting your opponent gain a shooting solution as much as forcing your own solution on your oponent. If gaining a shooting solution involves risking an overshoot and potentially ending up in your opponent's sights, it is no solution. Similarly, if you need to dump energy to get the shot, you've done something wrong. One of the strengths of a correctly flown P-51 is maintaining energy without presenting shooting oppurtunities to the other guy.

I've taken over two years of flying against human opponents in 3 sims (EAW, IL2 & FB) to learn what I know, though face to face teaching in real aircraft could probably achieve the same result in 3 or 4 months (less for the talented http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ). Even now, I still struggle in the Axis aircraft.

One of the most important things I've learned is that both teamwork and patience are essential if you're going to be successful against experienced opponents. Good SA is also very important, though voice comms and a good wingie can partially compensate for a lack of SA. I can't point to a specific place to give an exact description, but this (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html) article, particularly the part about rolling scissors, went a long way to pulling together the various other information I'd read, heard, or directly experienced.

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Salut
Tully

x__CRASH__x
01-03-2004, 10:47 AM
I've flown the 109 almost exclusively since flying IL-2. I just wanted to share one small observation, that the slow speed handling of the P-51 is exceptional. I don't make the observation from a P-51 cockpit, but watching it from mine. I know when I fought you and Disciple, Disciple pulled some moves at low speed that I could not match in my G10. Once a Med alt fight with a P-51 digressed down to the weeds. I lost the fight by stalling into the ground. This was after almost two minutes in an circle turn with a P-51. He just sat there turning with his left wingtip slicing off the weed tops, while I struggled to match the turn and maintain control.

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BM357_Raven
01-03-2004, 11:11 AM
Rgr, I think that was me.. But the essential problem for both of us is that neither of us wanted to be in that situation. It was basically a war of attrition that started up high and ended dangerously low.. The only reason we ended up there, at least for me, is because there weren't any other enemies in the the sky..

In those games, the bases were close. You know I spent the entire time climbing (usually towards the sun), only to find you (in most cases gaining on me. Which was good, you did everything right.

I read someone who posted that a 109 pilot who jumps in the P-51 can handle any 109 pilot... I say, ok, lemme have a few goes at you while I'm in the 109.. I think you will get the point there after...

That being said, although I am not a 109 fanatic... I really like what theyv'e done with the plane. It just gives the P-51 a very hard time--I think it out classes it in almost every way... but that's my oppinion..

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Maple_Tiger
01-03-2004, 11:36 AM
Good point crash.

In realitiy wich plane turned better? I dont know.

How about this. I have noticed that if im in the P-51 and if have 50% fuel that i can get out turned by most aircraft in a turn fight, exept mayby the FW,P-47 or bombers lol.

With 25% fuel i notice i can give the BF109's a run for there money in a turn fight, if i dont get to too slow.

But alot has to do with how much wheight you have compared to your oponant and how much E you have before you get into a turn fight.

I mean if a guy in a P-51 only has 20% fuel where is you still have like 75% fuel then it may not be a good idea to get into a turn fight

Then there is energy retention, this is a must lurn if your in a P-51 or P-47.

Most of the time i do not turn fight. I will pick up speed then try a high speed turn, this sometimes works against a plane that cant turn as good at high speeds.

BfHeFwMe
01-04-2004, 04:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_Raven:


I was just prepared for the P-51 to be stronger in terms of inertia. But I'll keep working it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some things you can work at to keep that inertia. Never pull the stick with nose low under 300 Kph, that will drop a bit with altitude to around 235@ 6000m. Don't care if someone is taking a distance pot shot, you pull it below that speed and your toasted anyway.

The wing is one of the cleanest and best balanced in the game, so fly the wing. Not a bad climber at all if you know it's dance, likes to do a three step forward and one back. Aileron is effective right down to 55-60Kph. So take what you now know and run with it.

Exercise for you, low level accellerate your mustang above 450Kph, zoom climb at above 80 degrees pitch but below 90. Keep your wings level with horizon, look to the sides and make sure they match close, use roll only to correct and slow minimum amount. Don't want to waste any energy.

Once you drop near 220-200 Kph apply slight forward stick pressure, your objective is to drop pitch to about 60-40 by the time you hit 120-130Kph speed range. Release pitch and let her continue climbing, remember that low aileron control speed, use them from here on only, no rudder or elevator.

She'll drop the nose real smooth as you balance the wings automatic, trick is to get a feel so it drops through horizon a bit above 60 Kph. You do that and you've grabbed the three steps forward. Let the nose drop through itself and resist the temptation to touch pitch.

Remember that shallow dive stuff and the acceleration? It's going to enter a slightly more aggressive dive, and also accellerate fairly quick, the one step backward. You hit 300Kph, now stick back and get your new altitude established. You'll note even though you pull fairly aggressive she still continues to gain airspeed well.

For comparison try grabbing and holding the altitude immediatly after a zoom climb with the lower speed and see what happens to compare, mush city and drop.

Won't be no time at all and you'll be using gravity more for pitch control and ailerons become your number one. Not a bad climber at all, hit 450 on your new level and do it again, and again, and again. Pretty good climber actually. As you get higher remember to pull a bit lower speed on recovery and zoom a bit lower is possible too.

Also works well with dive zoom slashes to get all your original altitude back if the dive is fairly deep, as long as you didn't blow energy turning at bottom.

Vipez-
01-04-2004, 07:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hanni8:
- Superb climb, G-6 only beaten by Spit XIV, G-2, G-10 and K superior climb, only Tempest on par. All Me 109 also had a very steep angle of climb. In FB: Two Hammerheads in succession usually are sufficient to gain enough E advantage vs. superior AI-Enemies (Yak, LA and all this evil breed..)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

G6 wasnt a good climber, it was outclimbed by a spitfire Mk IX, the XIV was close to the k4.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

G-6 and MK IX climb rate are really close to each other.. G-2 slightly better climber. and 109 should have ability to dive away due to faster acceleration in dives.


__________________________


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VW-IceFire
01-04-2004, 08:02 AM
And both Spitfire and 109 had heavier controls at high speed as I recall.

- IceFire
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x__CRASH__x
01-04-2004, 08:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
And both Spitfire and 109 had heavier controls at high speed as I recall.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't speak for the Spitfire, but the 109 is certainly heavy in the elevator above 450-500kph. I was in a K4 last night against a couple of P-51s at about 4k meters. I dropped on them and really felt how heavy that elevator was. If I had done with the P-51 she would have pulled a lot easier. Hwoever you to pay for it with a G-loc (G-force loss of consciousness)

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