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blackpulpit1970
02-18-2006, 05:23 PM
Hello this is for the jug fans to talk about the plane and how to fly it to the best way possible. What are some of your tactics and tips for flying. Prop pitch, rads,convergence and whatever else you may want to explain. I have been flyin this plane exclusively now online and would like to hear how you fly it and what you like and dislike about it. Thanks all and salute.

AH_Gonzo
02-19-2006, 03:20 AM
I'm a huge jug fan! For what they're worth (Which ain't much!), here's some tips I have about flying it online:

Best engine setting for top speed:

100% Throttle @ 95% Prop pitch.

Actual speed attainable:

Don't really know. Too busy watching pretty much everything in the sky catch up and overtake me.

Favorite manueover:

Spinning madly out of control after a gentle pull on the stick while traveling at approx. 400Kmh.

Technique for avoiding overheating:

Pick another plane from the menu list.

Best convergence setting:

Doesn't matter. If you should happen to hit anything, you'll only make it madder!

Favorite feature of the P-47:

Having to re-trim in all planes every 5 or 6 seconds.



I love the Jug, I really do. I'm not whining either. I only wish I could figure out how the real aces managed to do it in WWII.

Daiichidoku
02-19-2006, 04:17 AM
GFA

go fast always

geetarman
02-19-2006, 05:08 AM
I'm always curious why many posters will say to get the best speed out of an American plane, run it at something other than 100% throttle and 100% prop pitch. I mean, with the CSP, shouldn't 100% rpm and 100% throttle give you the best hope for max speed?

lowfighter
02-19-2006, 05:17 AM
P47 fan here too!
Listen very carefully to the plane warnings, I love P47 also because it's soo talkative.
Shoot from very close (50-100m), it works miracles!

Keep them coming, nice thread!

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-19-2006, 05:34 AM
PRATT & WHITNEY, P-47
Take-off 42" Hg 2700 RPM, Auto Rich
Climb 35" Hg 2500 RPM, Auto Rich
Cruise 30" Hg 2100 RPM, Auto Rich

from http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/pursuit/section6.htm (http://rwebs.net/avhistory/opsman/pursuit/section1.htm)

CAVEAT: I haven't checked those myself, but the figures for the Allison engined craft on that site are all out of goose compared with what we have on the sim - if you try and use the power settings given the plane just won't fly!(presumably the sim is at fault there)

jds1978
02-19-2006, 05:56 AM
find a friend to pair up with

fly high and fast.

never, ever turn fight http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

lowfighter
02-19-2006, 06:10 AM
Originally posted by jds1978:


never, ever turn fight http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

yes, but you can take the luxury to turn a bit when you have ENOUGH relative speed, like when diving on the enemy who alread spotted you and is turning defensive.

Diablo310th
02-19-2006, 08:10 AM
I've flown the Jug almost exclusively from Day 1. I always run 50% fuel, extra ammo, 100% prop pitch . If I'm diving I'll lower the prop pitch and that's the only time I change prop pitch other than when I have a sick engine and I'm trying to baby it home.

1. 100% prop
2. Never plan on entering a fight until your'e at 20,000 ft. You can come down after that.
3. Keep your speed over 200mph at all times.
4. Best climb speed seems to be around 170-180 mph.
5. my convergence is set at 265 for all guns.
6. Never turn more than 90 degrees and then extend or zoom climb up.
7. Oh yeah never ever fight on teh deck longer than a few seconds before turning tail and running to regain alt.

Snyde-Dastardly
02-19-2006, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Diablo310th:
I've flown the Jug almost exclusively from Day 1. I always run 50% fuel, extra ammo, 100% prop pitch . If I'm diving I'll lower the prop pitch and that's the only time I change prop pitch other than when I have a sick engine and I'm trying to baby it home.

1. 100% prop
2. Never plan on entering a fight until your'e at 20,000 ft. You can come down after that.
3. Keep your speed over 200mph at all times.
4. Best climb speed seems to be around 170-180 mph.
5. my convergence is set at 265 for all guns.
6. Never turn more than 90 degrees and then extend or zoom climb up.
7. Oh yeah never ever fight on teh deck longer than a few seconds before turning tail and running to regain alt.

I agree on the money Diablo!
Also if ya can fly with a wing man and you really can do some damage and cover your 6

mandrill7
02-19-2006, 10:22 AM
Okay Jugheads, here's the challenge. I'm doing a Ki-84 campaign and I want to work in missions vs every US a/c deployed over Kyushu. (Not quite sure the P-38 ever made it up there.) I've been using P-51's as the standard escort fighter and Corsairs for low level carrier launched sweeps. I know that Jugs were used for low level havoc, flying up from Ie Shima with a heavy payload.

Problem is........ My Ki-84's catch Jugs on the deck and the Jugs are - it would seem - dead meat. Can't turn worth spit and the Ki's will have the E advantage if they bounce.

What would you guys do if you were flying red?

VW-IceFire
02-19-2006, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by mandrill7:
Okay Jugheads, here's the challenge. I'm doing a Ki-84 campaign and I want to work in missions vs every US a/c deployed over Kyushu. (Not quite sure the P-38 ever made it up there.) I've been using P-51's as the standard escort fighter and Corsairs for low level carrier launched sweeps. I know that Jugs were used for low level havoc, flying up from Ie Shima with a heavy payload.

Problem is........ My Ki-84's catch Jugs on the deck and the Jugs are - it would seem - dead meat. Can't turn worth spit and the Ki's will have the E advantage if they bounce.

What would you guys do if you were flying red?
If I had a team of P-47s to work with the tactics would follow those of the 56th Fighter Group in Europe (I think these fellows actually moved to Le Shima at some point) which was to fly three flights of P-47s at staggered altitudes and a few minutes apart from each other.

The low ones would attract the attention and then the top ones would bounce.

You may consider using the P-47 Late as performance is closer to the P-47N's that they were using from Le Shima and Iwo Jima.

Grey_Mouser67
02-19-2006, 10:38 AM
First, fly the Later model...most of the Jugs over Japan were actually N's and they were a bit more nimble and faster than our Jug....

The Jug is really dead meat below 20,000 ft so if you are flying real pilots or a campaign you are in a difficult situation if you are low and ground pounding....generally speaking, the AI no longer follow you around in a tight turn like they did so if you can keep your speed up you can break turn and often the AI will break off the attack and then you can separate...if a Ki-84 decides to follow you through your manuever...well stick you head between your legs and kiss your A$$ goodbye!

The Ki-84, as modelled in this game, is one of hte premier aircraft...it will go 427mph at altitude and 367 mph on the deck...that puts it in an elite class...the Late Jug will do 364 on the deck and the early Jug 359....problem is the AI have unlimited boost and never overheat. Besides all that, the Ki climbs like crazy...it really is an awesome plane and the only allied planes that are its equals is the Mustang and the Late Lightning...everything else is a step or more too slow...you'll just have to deal with it.

BTW..the Late Jug will do 445 at 6800 meters so it is superior to the Ki when you get some altitude.

WOODY01
02-19-2006, 03:14 PM
I love the P-47, I mainly use it for low level strike and anti shipping missions.
How do I use it? No flap on takeoff, flat proppitch, as soon as Im up to 160-180mph get on that prop, usually Ill throttle back to about 70-80% throttle and just keep piling on the prop pitch (Ill let it off and let it spin up again as soon as it starts 'lugging') I find it goes awsomely in this enviroment, if you stay fast and hug the ground, dont let yourself get distracted, you can usually blow through most situations. If Im bounced Ill try and force them out in front on the first pass, try for a snapshot, after that call for help http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif .

Is it just me or has the P-47 got some new landing struts this patch? Seems alot nicer on touch down now.

RS.Wedge
02-19-2006, 06:07 PM
Check out my post in the PF forums about the P-47.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=2...161063414#3161063414 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=3161063414&r=3161063414#3161063414)

D-Humphrey
02-19-2006, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Snyde-Dastardly:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Diablo310th:
I've flown the Jug almost exclusively from Day 1. I always run 50% fuel, extra ammo, 100% prop pitch . If I'm diving I'll lower the prop pitch and that's the only time I change prop pitch other than when I have a sick engine and I'm trying to baby it home.

1. 100% prop
2. Never plan on entering a fight until your'e at 20,000 ft. You can come down after that.
3. Keep your speed over 200mph at all times.
4. Best climb speed seems to be around 170-180 mph.
5. my convergence is set at 265 for all guns.
6. Never turn more than 90 degrees and then extend or zoom climb up.
7. Oh yeah never ever fight on teh deck longer than a few seconds before turning tail and running to regain alt.

I agree on the money Diablo!
Also if ya can fly with a wing man and you really can do some damage and cover your 6 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also agree. I've been flying the Jug exclusively for about 6 months now on HL. As my squad (Rogue Squadron - RS) mates can atest, "Sally" is a handful. She is a pleasure to fly and fight with. She does not do well in the turn and burn fight though...she is strickly B&Z, unless she is in a fight with a like aircraft. The beauty that Sally brings to the table is here 8x .50 cals. On a single pass she can rip the wing off just about anything http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Though my squad uses her as bait http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , I'll gain the attention of an enemy plane and get them to go vertical follwing me, then one of my mates, will come in on the unsuspecting aggressor and take them out. This tactic works very well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif especially since "Sally" can take a beat'n and keep on tick'n http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Let me formally introduce you to "Sally"......Sally, these this is the gang http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b123/DHumphrey/Sally2.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b123/DHumphrey/Sally1.jpg

BSS_Goat
02-20-2006, 05:38 AM
HELLOOOOOO SALLY! You are HOT! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

lowfighter
02-20-2006, 06:10 AM
Use the high roll rate of the plane, similar to FW's.

mandrill7
02-20-2006, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
If I had a team of P-47s to work with the tactics would follow those of the 56th Fighter Group in Europe (I think these fellows actually moved to Le Shima at some point) which was to fly three flights of P-47s at staggered altitudes and a few minutes apart from each other.

The low ones would attract the attention and then the top ones would bounce.

You may consider using the P-47 Late as performance is closer to the P-47N's that they were using from Le Shima and Iwo Jima.

I've roughed in the mission as you suggested. 2 flights of Jugs coming in at about 1000 m and gradually diving down to rocket attack height with the other 2 flights slightly behind and around 2000 m for high cover. 2 flights of Ki-84's at around 800 m as the head-on intercept and 2 flights of Ki-100's coming in at the Jugs' 3. 4 or 5 flak pieces around the port and 2 Ja. destroyers in the bay. Just have to get the timing spot-on.

WOLFMondo
02-20-2006, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
First, fly the Later model...most of the Jugs over Japan were actually N's and they were a bit more nimble and faster than our Jug....


Seen plenty of picks of C's and early D models flown in the Pacific. While the N's only flew in the Pacific, it wasn't just the N's that flew there.

TX-Zen
02-20-2006, 07:24 AM
I noticed no one has chimed in with the 47's high altitude performance. I recall that a while ago it was quite nasty up high and only a Ta152 could compete with it....she still a rough customer above 8k or have things changed?

Good thread btw, keep the info coming.

blackpulpit1970
02-20-2006, 08:01 AM
Hello Zen, first let me say it's nice to see you back in the forums again, we flew together quite abit in the old days...lol.Yes the late p-47 is great up high between 6 and 8 thousand, she really kicks in up there and even TA152s are no problem for her (my opinion). She is trully a great boom and zoomer and the 8 50s now that there fix will take out a plane no problem. When i mean take out a plane it is usually how i prefer itFuel leak,oil leak,pilot kill and internal damage to gear such as aileron damage or rudder damage which puts the planes out of fighting capabilities. I flew the dora exclusively for years, since the demo days and although i love her i decided to switch to flying the jug and the p-51 to spice things up for me. I fly the jug and p-51 just like my dora, high altitude boom and zoom with speed and very little turning. I personally have found great pleasure when i see the words (enemy aircraft down) when flying the jug because i know i did something right that took some skill on my part with this plane. I personally feel the DM on the 190 is a little too much, but when i put it out of the fight from the ways mentioned earlier i feel good. Just my 2 cents about the jug, take care.

TX-Zen
02-20-2006, 08:58 AM
It's nice to be back here and getting some stick time also and yes, I do remember the old days and many of the times we flew together.

Naturally I am shocked that you would need anything besides a Dora to spice up your flying http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

On the other hand I really like the P47 myself so I know where you're coming from. If I fly red I almost always grab that or the P38 depending on what I'm going to do, in part because I can't stand the mustang's handling. That plane is simply not for me and never has been, though there is no specific reason I can name. So if I'm doing air to air I almost always pick the 47 since 190 discipline is a good start for it.

One of the things I love about this game is the high altitude fighting because at least we have an energy model that makes it possible now (unlike IL2 original, I'm sure you recall those unrealistic days above 5k). In previous patches the 47 reigned supreme most of the time, sometimes a little too good (compared to the Ta152 anyway, which is another plane I don't think gets a fair shake due to it's non standard design), but on the whole it's held an excellent performance advantage above 6-8k that I think is very reasonable. I know as a Dora pilot I won't even attempt to tackle a P47 at that altitude unless it's pure hit and run or I have 1-2 wingmen. Ta is a different story naturally and those are some of my favorite encounters actually.

Glad to hear the 47 is still competitive up high, I think its never really gotten a fair shake overall except for high altitude. I worry about it from patch to patch because it doesn't have anything going for it compared to other western types, in 1C's eye's it seems to be just another big ground pounder with corresponding performance.

WOLFMondo
02-20-2006, 09:32 AM
Like the Tempest V! can-o-worms!

The new P47D is good for anything above about 4K. As long as you have a little speed and you watch your mirror is pretty damn good.

blackpulpit1970
02-20-2006, 09:44 AM
I have flown the tempest a few times wolf but i cant stand the rear view (or lack of i should say) and the overheating is quite fast when in the heat of combat. She is a nice plane, but, for me online i dont like it, i cant see anything behind me and i always check my six, the jug is better for me.

Xiolablu3
02-20-2006, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
First, fly the Later model...most of the Jugs over Japan were actually N's and they were a bit more nimble and faster than our Jug....

The Jug is really dead meat below 20,000 ft so if you are flying real pilots or a campaign you are in a difficult situation if you are low and ground pounding....generally speaking, the AI no longer follow you around in a tight turn like they did so if you can keep your speed up you can break turn and often the AI will break off the attack and then you can separate...if a Ki-84 decides to follow you through your manuever...well stick you head between your legs and kiss your A$$ goodbye!

The Ki-84, as modelled in this game, is one of hte premier aircraft...it will go 427mph at altitude and 367 mph on the deck...that puts it in an elite class...the Late Jug will do 364 on the deck and the early Jug 359....problem is the AI have unlimited boost and never overheat. Besides all that, the Ki climbs like crazy...it really is an awesome plane and the only allied planes that are its equals is the Mustang and the Late Lightning...everything else is a step or more too slow...you'll just have to deal with it.

BTW..the Late Jug will do 445 at 6800 meters so it is superior to the Ki when you get some altitude.


I think the Corsair and Spitfire 8/9 do well versus the Ki84.

In fact I would rather be in a Spitfire than a Ki84, its close as the Ki84 is a great plane, but I can fly against it better in a Spitfire than I can fly a Ki84 versus a Spit.

Snyde-Dastardly
02-20-2006, 02:52 PM
Like I said before,its like swimming, ya try not to do it alone. If ya got acouple of wingmen cover each others back allways stay in contact.(voice over net) Try to keep visuals or know where your wing men are so you can get to them and they can get to you. Listen to your wingmen. They can see what you cant when you got bandits on your 6. Dont lay off the gas,easy turns and let the 8 50s do the talkin for ya. Besides nothing beats the punishment the jug can take. Not to mention 9 out of 10, she allways takes you home.My kinda gal.

LUFT11_Hoflich
02-20-2006, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by AH_Gonzo:
I'm a huge jug fan! For what they're worth (Which ain't much!), here's some tips I have about flying it online:


I AM A FAN OF HUGE JUGS...

Wait... wrong forum. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

H¶f...

WOLFMondo
02-21-2006, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by blackpulpit1970:
I have flown the tempest a few times wolf but i cant stand the rear view (or lack of i should say) and the overheating is quite fast when in the heat of combat. She is a nice plane, but, for me online i dont like it, i cant see anything behind me and i always check my six, the jug is better for me.

The rear view on all the tear drop style canopy planes isn't done particularly well because the head remains in one place, but its another one of those things that probably was never envisaged 6 or 7 years ago when they began work on this engine. Hopefully in BoB this will change.

Kernow
02-21-2006, 04:12 AM
I frequently fly the P-47 on Spit v 109. Most has been said already - the main points being get high and stay fast. A wingman and/or considerable patience also helps.

As on most aircraft 90/90% (prop/throttle) is equivalent to climb or combat power. I climb at that power setting, with rad open, at 160-170 mph to at least 20 000 ft - higher if high flying enemies are likely. At altitude close rad, cruise at 70/70 and trim for the speed that gives. Then patrol likely enemy flight paths looking for those who don't look out enough.

On sighting bogeys I'll go to 90/90 power, but will pull the throttle back prior to diving on the target. I could reduce prop speed to reduce drag and E-loss in the dive, but I leave it at 90 ready for the zoom and anyway a little less speed is a bit longer to line up the shot. Going into the dive I put 10 key taps of down and 10 of left rudder trim. I set my conv to 100 m and only open fire at close range (150 or less). At high speed that's not long on target and if you must see the enemy being blown into tiny fragments before you leave him alone you'd best fly something else.

Whether the 50s are modelled right or not, you rarely destroy a 190 or 109 in one pass. However, one good pass is all you need if they didn't see you and evade. If I got good hits (or even if I screwed up and missed) I zoom up and away. Nine times out of 10 the 109/190 is doomed and you'll get a kill when the enemy bails or crashes in a couple of minutes. Making multiple passes and getting drawn to the deck as the bandit dives away towards his own field, just to make sure of blowing him up will just get you killed in turn. One pass is usually enough for fatal damage - just not instantly fatal. And the odd time the enemy manages to land his damaged aircraft successfully, well, good luck to him.

If I'm spotted I'll zoom up and look for someone else. There are more than enough bandits who don't look out enough, so it's a waste of time trying to dogfight a more nimble opponent when you will eventually lose your E-advantage.

Bounced a pair of Ta-152s a months or so ago above 20k. As they were just flying in trail it was just the same as attacking a lone enemy: completely blind to the rear. The first one took a one sec burst as I passed. He warned the leader but I still managed a short burst, which caused bits to fly off, as I blew through their 'formation.' Was surprised the second 152 - who had taken the well aimed, close rqange shot - didn't need to break off. Anyway we ended up in a high alt spiral climbing fight. I still had a slight alt advantage and was able to at least hold my own in the climbing turn (we were 25k+), which allowed me to make further attacks, although with due regard to the position of the second 152. The 152s eventually got a little split up and I was able to turn in behind one and this time sent him down. The other 152 managed to dive away from my Jug and escaped to the clouds.

Was a very enjoyable fight and encouraging to see the Jug 'mix it' with the 152 which is a good turner. Although I'd happily tackle one again at high alt, it should be remembered that both 152s were damaged (although to what extent?) before we got into a dogfight.

BTW, I save 100% power for running away. At 90/90 (and rad open when climbing at slow speed) I never overheat.

In summary: Get high and look out more than the bad guys. When in trouble stuff the nose down and dive at full power - the bad guy will break up before you do. There are no 'special' prop, throttle, flap, rad etc settings which will allow you to outturn 109s on the deck.

blackpulpit1970
02-21-2006, 06:15 AM
A few things i have learned about the jug is to never fire in zoom mode, i only fire in normal view which helps alot. When in zoom view you always need to make minor little adjustments with the rudder which throws off your aim, so normal view works best. Also im at work so im not sure the number,but, 70%view or wide view works well for turning for some reason to me and helps keep plane level when turning. For me my convergence is longer at 225 to 250 because you usually arent able to get to close to the enemy when doing high altititude fighting, only when on the deck were you should not be in the jug to begin with. This way you can shoot before they bug out on you and hit the deck. My 2 cents

Stafroty
02-21-2006, 06:25 AM
best tactics is to use advantages every plane has. not going in way how opponent Needs you to go, keepin own way.

Learning how to fly is most important.

Lordbutter4
02-21-2006, 06:27 AM
Tatics will depend on the server you are playing on. While its said Stay high and fast, you cant sit at 8k while all your targets are at 1 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

Jugs can be used down low. Wingmen help in this area. It also depends on which arena you fly in. If you fly in the European front, you will probabaly face Fw's and 109's. The biggest problem for me is 109's as jugs have good speed to contend with a Fw and it seems to me in game turn better then the Fw at slower speeds. Any Fw who decides to attack you after you drop can have himslef a handful if you fly it right. 109's have the same advantages on a Jug which might make them more a difficult target. They will usually just outturn you and let you sail on by. Again wingmen come in handy here.

In the Pacific front I dont have too much information to give a good account. Facing a zero im sure dive and extend will work, but against the other latter war japanese stuff you might need to exercise caution just like dealing with a 109.

blackpulpit1970
02-21-2006, 06:51 AM
What are your preferences for gun convergence on the jug, some like long distance and some like in close, name your settings for the jug if you will please, i would like to know why some prefer what they use, thanks all.

TX-Zen
02-21-2006, 08:18 AM
I use 1000 for my convergence and have pretty much forever now, I'm completely used to it. I keep this when flying the P47 also, but always fire from 200m or less.

I'd be interested to hear what professional P47 drivers use and maybe some description of why.

blackpulpit1970
02-21-2006, 08:32 AM
Funny you mentioned that Zen, i just e-mailed Ken from the 368th Fighter Group WW2 squadron and he sent out my question about the gun convergence settings for the P-47 pilots of the squadron to 12 to 14 members of the squadron and to several in the know of theses things to reply to me there answer. As soon as i get a response i will post it hear on this topic. Hear is there site that also has some good gun cam film of taking out 190s and 109 on the deck as well as straffing cars and trains, enjoy
http://www.368thfightergroup.com/

Diablo310th
02-21-2006, 09:16 AM
Zen...interesting convergence settings. I may actually push mine out some from 265 to maybe 300. With the guns de-synched now even if you don't fire at convergence you cna get good disableing hits.

blackpulpit1970
02-21-2006, 09:31 AM
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-47/47GECD.gif

Something i found while searching google, this is a convergence chart for the P-47. Looks like a good setting for realism would be a staggerd 250 and 350 setting. I will try it more like 250 and 265 to see what it is like, and maybe a little further out like Diablo said around 300 or so. I asked this on another post any one know the answer.
When setting the convergence for the P-47 wing mounted plane and staggering the convergence the Machine gun button is for what 2 guns the inner or outer and the cannon button is for what the inner or outer guns, thanks

TX-Zen
02-21-2006, 10:04 AM
I like 1000 for 3 reasons:

Easier to strafe ground targets.

Higher chance to hit during head on shooting.

The guns tend to fire straight out from the wings (important for Antons) and so when at extremely close range, rounds tend to strike all over the target. It seems to makes it easier to predict where I will hit the target.



Ultimately for me it's easier to have what appears to be guns that fire straight out than to try and catch the target at a specific convergence range. When shooting at the ultra close range that I often do, anything less than 500 seems to make the shots crisscross and I actually miss alot. 1000 seems to have solved that problem for me...but I don't fire that far out unless its a head on.


I don't claim that 1000 is a magical convergence that solves all gunnery problems, but I do know that I've been using it for so long it's completely predictable and I work very well with it. You guys with more experience in the 47 will be the best judge ofcourse... I don't have nearly enough stick time behind 8 50's to really know how 1000 will affect it.

blackpulpit1970
02-21-2006, 11:00 AM
Good points there Zen, when i fly the dora or the antons i set my convergence to 500 because it flys nice and sytraight out of the guns and hits the center of my crosshairs when aiming. This to me feels right when deflection shooting and snapshots in the antons and is also very helpful for headons. I need to try this for the P-47 also to see if i get the same results, i tend to fire from a long distance with this plane because of the style of fighting that i do in it (boom and zoom). When you fly this way (for me)i never am able to get too close to the enemy because most good players on good servers are always aware of their six and check it often so to use a low convergence defeats the purpose, when i could score damaging hits from further away, thereby eliminating my chances of being bounced by their wingman or freinds nearby and climbing to altitude. Does this sound right to you all. I tend to beleive that a low convergence would work better when on the deck and is easier to get closer to your opponent thru snapshots and deflection shots.

TX-Zen
02-21-2006, 11:28 AM
Black,

I understand what you're saying definately, though I approach the scenario you mentioned differently. If I can't get a good solid shot the first time, I won't fire at all, I'll just climb up and keep the E advantage that I have, then roll over and evaluate from there.

For me the 190 is mostly about energy fighting whether it's close range middle-of-furball or high altitude patience/disciplined fighting. I basically use the same tactics in the P47 though I don't turn as much (partly due to less familiarity which leads to less confidence in the 47) and tend to keep my speed higher overall in the 47 than I do in the 190. In this case years of familiarity with the 190 means I feel comfortable in it at any speed, but I definately do not have the same comfort level in the 47.

Ironically for a plane like the 190 having so much ammo I am extremely stingy on the trigger...I simply refuse to fire unless there's a good chance of doing serious damage. I fly the 47 like that as well despite having large amounts of ammo and the fact that 50's need a longer time on target to do any damage. I realize I might need to lighten up a little, but this style has worked for me for years and I doubt I'll be able to change now. The part that makes it effective is by firing at point blank range...often less than 100m for me, even coming in at 700+km/h during a BnZ run. I am not the greatest shot in the world by anymeans, but firing from close range helps take the guess work out of it.

I see the logic in your style of attack and I don't disagree with it, but obviously I'm used to a completely different style. I guess you could say I'm paranoid about missing, I'd rather not shoot than risk giving away a bounce by firing too far out, just on the off chance that he really doesn't see me coming. I've also tried being more happy on the trigger in the 190 but felt that for me personally it was actually doing me more harm than good and tended to make me a little sloppier than I feel comfortable with.

Granted I fly the 190 exclusively and obviously not everything translates directly to the P47...thats one of the reasons I am interested in this thread. I think I need to brush up with the 47 and get some pointers from the more experienced fliers so that I can see when to use the 190 mindset and when to use the 47 style.

UberPickle
02-21-2006, 11:42 AM
What I like to do in a jug (and I got somebody online with it yesterday, a tempest) is set the convergence distance on the MG'S tight (190m) and line up on the nose of the enemy. Knowing the tempest and how I wouldnt be able to dogfight it, I blasted away lined up on his nose and took out him out later (knocked off his controls).

Remember, in a dogfight, the jug is able to survive much longer because of it's durabilty! It is far much more work, but you will survive!

Also, the jug is good for womping stuff on the ground and beating up JU-87's and anything else heavy. I would classify the jug as a ground attack plane because of it's lack of speed and manouvering ability compared to it's counter parts.

Can anyone recommend some good fighting techniques in the jug against enemy fighters that are way faster at lower altitudes? I tend to work at low altitudes, or is that even an option in the jug for dogfighting?

Stafroty
02-21-2006, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by TX-Zen:
I like 1000 for 3 reasons:

Easier to strafe ground targets.

Higher chance to hit during head on shooting.

The guns tend to fire straight out from the wings (important for Antons) and so when at extremely close range, rounds tend to strike all over the target. It seems to makes it easier to predict where I will hit the target.



Ultimately for me it's easier to have what appears to be guns that fire straight out than to try and catch the target at a specific convergence range. When shooting at the ultra close range that I often do, anything less than 500 seems to make the shots crisscross and I actually miss alot. 1000 seems to have solved that problem for me...but I don't fire that far out unless its a head on.


I don't claim that 1000 is a magical convergence that solves all gunnery problems, but I do know that I've been using it for so long it's completely predictable and I work very well with it. You guys with more experience in the 47 will be the best judge ofcourse... I don't have nearly enough stick time behind 8 50's to really know how 1000 will affect it.

doesnt sound realistic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif headons are for jerks who cant find better way to attack. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TX-Zen
02-21-2006, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Stafroty:

doesnt sound realistic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif headons are for jerks who cant find better way to attack. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Guess you forgot the days of IL2 original where sometimes that was the Anton's only chance to attack.. if you didn't get good at it back then, you didn't have much of a chance

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

blackpulpit1970
02-21-2006, 12:13 PM
Nice post Zen and i also see your point. The main point i guess out of all this is to at least land some bullets in the enemys plane and do some damage to it, either from a distance or close range. I do know the damage effect is much greater from close range (150 or less)in the jug, its just that getting that close can be tricky when trying to fly the jug with discipline by not giving up too much energy and altitude.If your bouncing the enemy from above you can do good with low convergence, if you enter a fight with just a little altitude (say 1000)more than your opponent and you dont quite get to bounce him as you would like but instead attack at almost equal energy i feel a longer convergence may work best. I need to do some testing on both of these methods to really say what feels best for my way in the jug, i will let you know what the 368 squadron says about all this when i hear back from them. Uberpickle i would not suggest fighting with the jug on the deck mate, it usually ends up in defeat. Stick to higher than your opponent fighting and use the zoom climb for evading in the jug. Great post guys keep it coming.

blackpulpit1970
02-21-2006, 12:17 PM
doesnt sound realistic headons are for jerks who cant find better way to attack.
LOL...yeah and your comment is realistic! im sure thats what real pilots in the war said huh.

RS_Deacon
02-21-2006, 12:42 PM
Stafroty, I quote from 'Luftwaffe Fighter Aces' written by Mike Spick. Page 156...
"Egon Mayer and Georg-Peter Eder of JG2 developed this method of attacking American heavy bomber formations. Having tailed them to establish exact course, altitude, and speed, they then moved out to a safe distance on ne flank and overtook them. Having gained a lead of about to miles, the German fighters turned in for a head-on pass."
I guess a head on pass was realistic enough for real life WWII pilots, good enough for me.

Holtzauge
02-21-2006, 01:45 PM
Since this thread is about Jug tactics and tips I have a question:

Is it true that the best way to take defensive action in a Jug is to release the straps and run around in the cockpit?

Viper2005_
02-21-2006, 01:59 PM
Ok here's my view from the other side of the fence.

i) P-47s own the sky above about 6500 m. Stay up there and the fight is yours to lose. You can fly very fast up there without overheating, and most of your enemies (like me in the Fw-190) are running out puff due to the fact that our rated altitude is about 6 km.

ii) Bellycheck. If I had 1 for every P-47 I've killed by sneaking up on his low 6 I'd be a long way towards paying for my PPL skillstest by now...

iii) Unless you're a really great shot, set different convergences for your inner and outer guns so that you get a "shotgun" effect. This greatly increases your chances of scoring hits in a high speed bounce; it also greatly increase your chances of setting Fw-190s on fire in my limited experience testing this offline.

iv) Bellycheck.

v) Don't get slow, and never fight low. A P-47 below 4 km is little more than a target for any Fw-190 other than the F-8. Sure there are great pilots out there who can do magical things with their P-47 down on the deck and make me pay for my arrogance, but they're strictly in the minority!

vi) Bellycheck.

BTW, as for headon attacks, as an Fw-190 driver I like headons since I've usually got the biggest guns in town. I don't back down from headons; sometimes that results in a collision, but c'est la vie; most of the time they're dead before they get within 100 m.

BigKahuna_GS
02-21-2006, 06:11 PM
S!

The P47D Late was re-tuned as it was too slow throughout the altitude range. If you look at the speed curves below, you will see that the performance "sweet spot" is between 16,000ft (420mph) to 23,200ft (444mph)and up to 439mph at 25,200ft.

"The airplane and engine handled well at all altitudes at the higher powers. At 70.0" Hg., water injection, a maximum speed of 444 MPH was obtained at 23,200 feet. At 65.0" Hg., with water a high speed of 439 MPH at 25,200 feet and a maximum rate of climb of 3260 ft/min. at 10,000 feet were obtained."


Stay in the Performance "Sweet Spot" for best effectiveness.

The higher you operate the Jug above 20,000ft the less overheating occurs.

Keep the cowl flaps closed--less drag more speed.

Setting nose down trim and reducing prop pitch will help the Jug to accelerate faster in the dive.

Dive and recover, dive and recover. Altitude is your friend. A wing man is very important.

Covergance at 300m for both has worked very well for me. Always take the extra ammo setting.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/p-47/p47d-44-1-level.jpg
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/p-47/p47d-44-1-level.jpg



The P47D Late should have close to 2700hp/+ at 70" MAP

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/150grade/p-47-66inch.jpg

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/150grade/p-47-66inch.jpg

mandrill7
02-21-2006, 06:52 PM
O/T:

Kahuna, where did you find your Corsair Cutie? I'm releasing a campaign for VMF-312 "Checkerboarders" on Oki in the next few days and damn my tailfeathers, if that young lady isn't posing on a Checkerboarders kite!

Mind if I "borrow" her?

BigKahuna_GS
02-21-2006, 08:00 PM
S!
__________________________________________________ _______
mandrill7 -- where did you find your Corsair Cutie? I'm releasing a campaign for VMF-312 "Checkerboarders" on Oki in the next few days and damn my tailfeathers, if that young lady isn't posing on a Checkerboarders kite!

Mind if I "borrow" her?
__________________________________________________ ________



She's a sweetie http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The more I see of her the better !

There is more WW2 Pin Up sweeties here :

http://coeurdenuit.skynetblogs.be/

http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images/002/746/678_374de23d328fa806c810139cad550396.jpg

BigKahuna_GS
02-21-2006, 08:15 PM
S!


And here:

http://coeurdenuit.skynetblogs.be/?date=20050630#1259370

http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images/002/746/678_374de23d328fa806c810139cad550396.jpg

D-Humphrey
02-21-2006, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:

v) Don't get slow, and never fight low. A P-47 below 4 km is little more than a target for any Fw-190 other than the F-8. Sure there are great pilots out there who can do magical things with their P-47 down on the deck and make me pay for my arrogance, but they're strictly in the minority!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <---- RS_DealnDave in his girl, "Sally" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

blackpulpit1970
02-22-2006, 06:31 AM
This is for Zen, this is what i was told by a gentleman from the 368 squadron about the p-47s convergence in the squad.(George Gill told me once that they were set up on revetments and aimed to converge 200-250 yards out. Some pilots could have them customize the distances.
Tim)this is interesting, i will receive more e-mails from the members in the next few days and i will post them for you all. Salute

MystiqBlackCat
02-22-2006, 10:09 AM
The Jug was always one of my favorite rides, its big, tough, and can give a beating as good as it can take one.

In the last few month's my main rides have been the Antons as I joined a squad back in August. But I still enjoy taking the Jug up for a spin.

I am most interested in the convergence discussion. I read an autobiography of an American spitfire pilot and he talked about convergences of 50m and less! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif For a while I flew with 100 to 125 convergence and I got great results. I'm a stealth hunter, mostly I look for easy targets, guys flying fairly straight and level.

Close in til they fill up my windscreen and let loose. Never fails to make a kill, the only prob was dogfighting, I had to real em in much closer than was feasible to get good hits. I've backed out my convergence to 300 now, it seems to work pretty good in air and ground work for me and I can still tear up my unsuspecting victims from 10 feet away http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

blackpulpit1970
02-22-2006, 10:58 AM
Hello Mystique, yes im doing a little work on different convergences to see what is best for me in the jug, i flew the antons and the dora since the demo days and i wanted a different change so i picked the jug to be my main ride for a while. The jug has the same discipline neede to fly that i used in the 190s (no turning,speed,altitude). Zen and i were discussing the differences and tactics needed for different settings of convergence, i beleive it is up to the individual's flying style and what they prefer. Iam in contact with the son of a jug pilot from the 368th squadron who sent out a question for me about the p-47 convergence settings they used to fellow pilots that are alive still from the squad, one reply so far was setting them at 200 to 250, another said they changed it to around 400 for straifing runs after they used up there bombs. One thing to remember is that in the game it uses meters and not yards, so forever i was thinking in yards when entering my numbers and not realizing that it is not correct, so when you want a historical 250 yards you must enter 228.6 in the convergence box. You can google this (meters to yards) and you will get a calculation page to find out the correct numbers to enter. I say a chart that i posted earlier that used 250 and 350 yards for the P-47. Hope this thread may be usefull to some, salute.

blackpulpit1970
02-22-2006, 11:31 AM
Sent by a vet from the squadron:John -- About 8 years after I met Homer Hayes at our first Annual Reunion in 1985, I sent him some pages out of a book I was writing to our Grandchildren - Homer edited them and gave me a lot of information about the Jug, including gun settings.. Here's how Homer wrote it:
"The eight fifty caliber machine guns, four in each wing, had the fire power at approximately 300 yards, where bullets converged, to knock a locomotive off its track! The guns were bore-sighted to form a 12 foot square box at 1000 feet. Each gun carried 265 rounds. Short bursts were important. The guns fired at the rate of 750 rounds a minute. Tracers fired at the 200th round."

As far as I know, Homer is still at the same address [and phone #] in the Directory.

TX-Zen
02-22-2006, 01:13 PM
I'll try the 250m convergence next time I fly a jug, which hopefully will be tonight. I guess all things considered if I fire at my usual close range, maybe 250 will work for me.

blackpulpit1970
02-22-2006, 01:41 PM
Try this Zen mg=250 and cannon=200.
Remember 250 yards=228.6 meters and 200 yards=182.88 meters. Good luck mate.

KrashanTopolova
02-22-2006, 10:47 PM
Tip:...the Ki has an acceleration flat spot...