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View Full Version : What's so special about the BF109 ?



Sterf21
02-18-2005, 04:32 PM
It's an energy fighter, but it's not very maneuvereble on low speeds, mostly the spitfire or hurricane always comes out with a victory. At least, when I'm playing the messerschmitt. I have some experience with IL2, but not that much.

I still wonder what advantages the BF109 has in dogfights.

fherathras
02-18-2005, 04:53 PM
climb, vertical-turning/dogfight, speed.
and firepower with 30mm`s



Generally, it has everything, exept horizontal turning ability, with, infact issnt that poor either.


a WERY good plane in the right hands, this from a A-20 pilot who gets his *** handed to him daily online by bf-109`s

mortoma
02-18-2005, 05:00 PM
Well for one thing, which 109?? For another thing try not to get into low speed fights in it until you are an expert in it and know how to scissor really well and stuff like that. Against some planes, like the Spit, maybe you should avoid low speed knife fights entirely?? And really just because you can't fly a certain fighter a certain way doesn't mean it can't be done by others. You may never get good at slow fighting in the 109 or you may only need more practice in it. Slow knife fighting may not be your thing but good for others. I'm a terrible BnZ'er but there are lots of people that do it well.

Sterf21
02-18-2005, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fherathras:
climb, vertical-turning/dogfight, speed.
and firepower with 30mm`s



Generally, it has everything, exept horizontal turning ability, with, infact issnt that poor either.


a WERY good plane in the right hands, this from a A-20 pilot who gets his *** handed to him daily online by bf-109`s <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And what exactly do you mean with the vertical climbing ? (pardon me for my ignorance http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

steiner562
02-18-2005, 05:02 PM
Except the eleavtors freeze up at non historical speeds in later models, so its been dumbed down for certain people who like wine

p1ngu666
02-18-2005, 05:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fherathras:
climb, vertical-turning/dogfight, speed.
and firepower with 30mm`s



Generally, it has everything, exept horizontal turning ability, with, infact issnt that poor either.


a WERY good plane in the right hands, this from a A-20 pilot who gets his *** handed to him daily online by bf-109`s <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

any tips for the turret in a20? that **** rudder http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

109, spiral climb, then zoom down and shoot the enemy when hes slow
i suggest u fly against planes u outclimb easily to start with

Sterf21
02-18-2005, 05:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fherathras:
climb, vertical-turning/dogfight, speed.
and firepower with 30mm`s



Generally, it has everything, exept horizontal turning ability, with, infact issnt that poor either.


a WERY good plane in the right hands, this from a A-20 pilot who gets his *** handed to him daily online by bf-109`s <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

any tips for the turret in a20? that **** rudder http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

109, spiral climb, then zoom down and shoot the enemy when hes slow
i suggest u fly against planes u outclimb easily to start with <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why is a spiral climb better then a straight climb ?

fherathras
02-18-2005, 05:13 PM
Basically, this is what vertical manouvers are


http://www.itslearning.no/data/256/148/AAAA.jpg



the planes go in a circle forming an O up and down, up and down...


not like horizontal. where the planes stay att the same altitute

fherathras
02-18-2005, 05:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fherathras:
climb, vertical-turning/dogfight, speed.
and firepower with 30mm`s



Generally, it has everything, exept horizontal turning ability, with, infact issnt that poor either.


a WERY good plane in the right hands, this from a A-20 pilot who gets his *** handed to him daily online by bf-109`s <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

any tips for the turret in a20? that **** rudder http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

109, spiral climb, then zoom down and shoot the enemy when hes slow
i suggest u fly against planes u outclimb easily to start with <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I`l post some tracks a bit later, after i get something to eat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ColoradoBBQ
02-18-2005, 05:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sterf21:
Why is a spiral climb better then a straight climb ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because you're a sitting duck when you fly in a straight climb rather than a spiral climb.

Sterf21
02-18-2005, 05:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ColoradoBBQ:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sterf21:
Why is a spiral climb better then a straight climb ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because you're a sitting duck when you fly in a straight climb rather than a spiral climb. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
never thought of that..it seems very logical....thanks !

Sterf21
02-18-2005, 05:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fherathras:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fherathras:
climb, vertical-turning/dogfight, speed.
and firepower with 30mm`s



Generally, it has everything, exept horizontal turning ability, with, infact issnt that poor either.


a WERY good plane in the right hands, this from a A-20 pilot who gets his *** handed to him daily online by bf-109`s <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

any tips for the turret in a20? that **** rudder http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

109, spiral climb, then zoom down and shoot the enemy when hes slow
i suggest u fly against planes u outclimb easily to start with <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I`l post some tracks a bit later, after i get something to eat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oeh goodie, I'd like to see those tracks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

fherathras
02-18-2005, 05:39 PM
they ait for you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif


they are for pingu .



awrait pingu... heres what yu do, set up a flight of friendly bombers,



sett your dificulty to unlimited ammo,



try to shoot the turret and fly at the same time.



soon, youl be plukkin down those pesky(but easily flamable, might i ad) FW-190 out of the sky, like nothin! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif



An example: Track (http://www.itslearning.no/data/256/148/Gunner.rar)
just unzipp the file in youre records folder.

Wilburnator
02-18-2005, 05:45 PM
Wait a sec... explain that "vertical" thingy again. Lol, nice drawing

Vampiric666
02-18-2005, 05:48 PM
Another advantage of the 109 is that she has a brick in the elevator, that works as a shield, its also good when another pilot rams u because we all know that a brick is a really hard thing and they will screw their propeller in ur back, u can also use the another trick.. drop the brick when the enemy is at ur six and close.. better in a zoom climb...the gravity will make its job http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hydra444
02-18-2005, 06:12 PM
I haven't noticed anything speacial about the 109,say for the fact that many who fly it seem to think that it some how qualifies them as a "know-it-all" when it comes to aerial combat.That wasn't meant as a slam on anyone who flyes the 109,just as observation I've made http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

steve_v
02-18-2005, 06:24 PM
fherathras

Please downsize your sig to meet forum guideines. Thanks

500 wide x 200 high maximum dimensions

p1ngu666
02-18-2005, 07:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fherathras:
they ait for you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif


they are for pingu .



awrait pingu... heres what yu do, set up a flight of friendly bombers,



sett your dificulty to unlimited ammo,



try to shoot the turret and fly at the same time.



soon, youl be plukkin down those pesky(but easily flamable, might i ad) FW-190 out of the sky, like nothin! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif



An example: http://www.itslearning.no/data/256/148/Gunner.rar
just unzipp the file in youre records folder. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ta http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
i just have problems with 6oclock stuff cos of rudder, i do ok in b25 because of the twin fins http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

p1ngu666
02-18-2005, 07:17 PM
spiral vs straight, u can do both

great pic showing vertical manovers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Stiglr
02-18-2005, 07:22 PM
Heheh, as one of the "109 know-it-alls" (and d@mned proud of it!), I have to sort of laugh at the horrid explanations for the spiral climb here... and caution the guy who asks the question to just wait; one day he'll get rope-a-doped, feel the helplessness and the fear, just before the well-timed hammerhead from out of the sun brings him low.

Seriously, though, the spiral climb is the 109s #1 weapon, a maneuver it does better than any other family of plane. Some come close, like a Spitfire, or any of the later war Russian hotrods... but up until late in the war, almost nothing does a spiral climb like the 109.

Basically, the maneuver is designed to draw an unsuspecting enemy into a climbing corkscrew, where the pursuer thinks he's going to get a shot. But, the wily 109 keeps tightening the turn, and steepening the climb, and sapping the hapless plane below to an energy state where he can't keep his nose up to get the shot, is dangerously close to stalling, and can't do anything but drop his nose and wallow.

That's when the 109 drops down on him, getting off a good, high percentage killing shot at a plane that's slow and unmaneuverable.
================================
Many people discount climb ability in favor of top speed, turning ability and guns. But MANY planes are fast, or can turn, or have good weaponry. Only a handful can keep going up, untouchable, while others languish below. That's a BIG advantage in the right hands.

LStarosta
02-18-2005, 07:45 PM
The 109 pwnz because it demonstrates the fact that the MG/FF is a superior cannon to the MG151/20.

Thanks, Oleg!

LeadSpitter_
02-18-2005, 09:31 PM
It has a tissue counter that lets you know when your out of kleenex's

p1ngu666
02-18-2005, 09:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
It has a tissue counter that lets you know when your out of kleenex's <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

i agree with stiglr http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

S.h.r.i.k.e
02-18-2005, 11:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sterf21:

Why is a spiral climb better then a straight climb ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My understanding is that spiral climbing is better for a couple reasons:

First, as has already been mentioned, in a spiral climb, you are more difficult to shoot down.

Second, when you are in a spiral climb, there is a vertical component of the force of lift upwards. This vertical component helps "pull" your plane higher.
When you fly straight upwards (perpendicular to the ground), the force of lift is basically parrallel to the ground. Thus, it is not helping your plane to get any higher. Your plane is not taking advantage of the lift generated by the wings.
So, everything else being the same (except time, it does take a little longer to stall in a spiral climb), you can actually gain more altitude in a spiral climb than you can gain in a straight vertical climb before stalling out.

Stiglr
02-18-2005, 11:58 PM
I dunno about that, Shrike.

If you're banked and climbing, one wing is doing more work than the other, and the other is contributing more drag, by virtue of it trailing.

I'm no physics whiz, or math whiz by any means, but I don't think you can do any better than to have wings perpendicular, engine full out and pulling for the heavens, all things considered.

Why the spiral climb works is, if the attacking plane does not enjoy a great advantage going into the turn, he never gets a shot. It's because the 109 can turn juuuuuust enough to stay out of the gun arc, and climbs juuuuuust high enough to where the attacker can't lift his nose for the shot without stalling.

It starts with a gentle turn and modest climb, and then the turn tightens and the climb steeper, almost like drawing a noose. Done to perfection, the 109 will have just enough juice to end up almost straight on top of the mushing plane following, and can kick hard rudder and hammerhead down on his helpless prey.

But even without this scenario, he can still reverse his nose and turn/roll on the way down, and get in a good shot.

S.h.r.i.k.e
02-19-2005, 12:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
I dunno about that, Shrike.

If you're banked and climbing, one wing is doing more work than the other, and the other is contributing more drag, by virtue of it trailing.

I'm no physics whiz, or math whiz by any means, but I don't think you can do any better than to have wings perpendicular, engine full out and pulling for the heavens, all things considered.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not an aeronautical engineer either. However, lift is a fairly considerable force. Gravity, is pretty strong itself and lift cancels and indeed exceeds gravity. When you are spiral climbing, there is a lift component upwards pulling the aircraft up. As long as you are not spiral climbing with an overly tight turning radius, I'm still betting you should be able to gain more altitude. Imagine if the prop siezed and you lost forward thrust and only had your initial momentum to go off of. If you could only spiral climb or pull the stick straight up and vertical climb. I would think you could get higher with a spiral climb because of the help you get with lift. I guess it would also have to depend on whether the increased time you are exposed to air friction in a spiral climb would negate the advantage of the lift.

How is one wing doing more work than the other when climbing and banking? I would imagine that it would all be relative to the flow of air. I'm not familiar with that concept. I would be grateful if you could please explain.

Anyway, I'm not saying I'm 100% correct, just theorizing. I would love for someone more knowledgable in physics to have a say in this.

Interesting conversation...

F19_Ob
02-19-2005, 01:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sterf21:
It's an energy fighter, but it's not very maneuvereble on low speeds, mostly the spitfire or hurricane always comes out with a victory. At least, when I'm playing the messerschmitt. I have some experience with IL2, but not that much.

I still wonder what advantages the BF109 has in dogfights. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Sterf21
By now you've heard about Energy and Vertical fighting. The thing that makes the 109 a dominant fighter in most theaters is a combination of accelleration, speed, climb agility and goodnatured stall-characteristics alongside heavy armament.
If u look at most planes the same yearperiod and count the advantages U soon understand why.
Later in the war after 1943 the allied fighters performance are somewhat improved and the gap lessens but that in turn is compensated by the german 30mm cannon wich kills or disables most fighters with only one hit.

Although the turn is not as good as in some allied fighters, its close enough. The 109's accelleration and good slowspeed handling enables it to force the enemy to expend his lesser Energy and thereby escape or win the fight.
A 109 can also make an initial hard energy bleeding turn without flipping and spinning like many allied planes do and thus be able to even turn inside a spitfire in many situations. Its accelleration and climb and good stall will also enable it to climb from almost stallspeed and thats may make it hard even for a spitfire in its own field .
The 109 will eventually flip but wont spinn easily.
This also enables the 109 to begin slow speed scissoringfights and fight the enemy in zig-zag pattern (simplifyed)and its accelleration enables it to add vertical moves in the scissor wich many planes cant cope with because in the slow speeds they wont be able to change direction without flipping or stalling and many allied planes risks to spinn.
This is one reason.

Another reason is that the good accelleration, speed and climb enables the 109 to leave or engage a fight at will where many allied planes cant.

Only later in the war will the odds be evened out and Highperformance fighters like the La7 can match the level speed and has better turn
aswell as 3 20mm cannons wich also match the german 30mm. A 109 caught on the deck with a La 7 may feel a little like the allied early in the war. Expert 109 pilots can ofcourse counter a La7 with less experience.

Note that inexperienced 109 pilots are not so hard to take out since they will in most cases try to out-turn the enemy in the horisontal wich may work if the opponent also is inexperienced, but horisontal turning leaves most allied fighters with enough energy to pull lead and hit.


------------------------------------------------

It becomes a little confusing at times when one read about the 109 as an experts plane, wich really should be converted to; Many german experts prefered the 109 for its agility and performance and that newcomers had trouble in Take off and landings. Its from here the expert thing originates as I see it.

If flying an "experts" plane is the reason to fly the 109, I would suggest the Hurricane for a while since it has almost no performance at all compared to the 109 and therefore is a much more difficult mount in my book.
The only hurricanes wich really may cause disaster for an unaware or inexperienced 109 is the cannon equipped ones since a spray of cannonshells do much greater damage than 7mm bullets.

A lot more can be said about the 109's dominance
but this outlines the most important aspects.
One last thing though. One thing that is very important with the 109 is that it climbs so well
So one can aquire altitude fast and perform well on altitudes where some allied fighters struggle.
All experts gain altitude not just in the 109.
that goes for all planes.

a few thoughts http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

fherathras
02-19-2005, 03:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by steve_v:
fherathras

Please downsize your sig to meet forum guideines. Thanks

500 wide x 200 high maximum dimensions <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



done http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sterf21
02-19-2005, 04:30 AM
I will try all the advise; thanks you lot!

Only one thing left: why is scissoring (especially with the BF109) better then normal turning, in an attempt to outturn them ?

And in the meanwhile, to make it clear, could anyone explain the scissor theory ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

zjulik
02-19-2005, 05:39 AM
What makes the 109 so special to me is something which has not been mentioned yet in this thread. The 109 is BY FAR AND AWAY the plane in the game where use of complex engine management in general, and propeller pitch in particular, makes most of a difference. Without manual pitch, you`ll utilize far too little of the plane`s potential.

Manual pitch in the 109 is not something you master at once though. It is also the one plane in the game where uncautious use of pitch may smoke your engine in less than a second. Used correctly, it is a potent weapon.

BTW try this the next time your in what seems to be an unrecoverable spin in a 109: Pitch up for a second or so. You`re out of the spin instantaneously.

Monson74
02-19-2005, 06:05 AM
To me it's a real badass plane - I love it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

p1ngu666
02-19-2005, 07:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zjulik:
What makes the 109 so special to me is something which has not been mentioned yet in this thread. The 109 is BY FAR AND AWAY the plane in the game where use of complex engine management in general, and propeller pitch in particular, makes most of a difference. Without manual pitch, you`ll utilize far too little of the plane`s potential.

Manual pitch in the 109 is not something you master at once though. It is also the one plane in the game where uncautious use of pitch may smoke your engine in less than a second. Used correctly, it is a potent weapon.

BTW try this the next time your in what seems to be an unrecoverable spin in a 109: Pitch up for a second or so. You`re out of the spin instantaneously. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

actully, ull use higher power settings than a REAL lw pilot, but, hey thats fine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
109 scissors so well ingame cos its stalls at really low speed. by some magic k4 is better or equal to f4 in stalls http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

it should be good in stall area, but k4 should be worse... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Sterf21
02-19-2005, 07:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zjulik:
What makes the 109 so special to me is something which has not been mentioned yet in this thread. The 109 is BY FAR AND AWAY the plane in the game where use of complex engine management in general, and propeller pitch in particular, makes most of a difference. Without manual pitch, you`ll utilize far too little of the plane`s potential.

Manual pitch in the 109 is not something you master at once though. It is also the one plane in the game where uncautious use of pitch may smoke your engine in less than a second. Used correctly, it is a potent weapon.

BTW try this the next time your in what seems to be an unrecoverable spin in a 109: Pitch up for a second or so. You`re out of the spin instantaneously. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So eeeeh.... 20 minutes ago, I've tried, (for the first time in my humble life!!!! ) to stumble with the BF109 propellor pitch. (never knew that was possible until now) And it's a weird subject, because when do you know what propellor pitch is best ?
And what should I imagine with the term 'propellor pitch' ? The angle of the propellor to the air or the RPM ???

EDIT: Already found my answers: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=38710545&r=78710545#78710545

Which leaves me for another question:
What are those 'MAGNETO'S' good for ?

FI_Willie
02-19-2005, 09:06 AM
Sterf21 wrote <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Which leaves me for another question:
What are those 'MAGNETO'S' good for ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They're good for leaving alone. You need both mags to get full power from the engine. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LStarosta
02-19-2005, 10:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S.h.r.i.k.e:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sterf21:

Why is a spiral climb better then a straight climb ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My understanding is that spiral climbing is better for a couple reasons:

First, as has already been mentioned, in a spiral climb, you are more difficult to shoot down.

Second, when you are in a spiral climb, there is a vertical component of the force of lift upwards. This vertical component helps "pull" your plane higher.
When you fly straight upwards (perpendicular to the ground), the force of lift is basically parrallel to the ground. Thus, it is not helping your plane to get any higher. Your plane is not taking advantage of the lift generated by the wings.
So, everything else being the same (except time, it does take a little longer to stall in a spiral climb), you can actually gain more altitude in a spiral climb than you can gain in a straight vertical climb before stalling out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


He was talking about a sustained climb with no change in position in the horizontal plane other than forward motion, not a vertical climb.

zjulik
02-19-2005, 10:09 AM
The first thing about pitch is that you should be extremely careful with it in the 109. Running at 100% for longer than a second or so is not recommended unless you perhaps are climbing steeply.
A nice cruise setting is around 50%. Apply more when needed. The acceleration effect is noticeable!
While diving, pitch down as far as you can so as not to overrev the engine.
Experienced pilots (I am not one of them) leave throttle alone at a middle-to-high most of the time, and regulate speed by pitching!!

han freak solo
02-19-2005, 10:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>any tips for the turret in a20? that **** rudder http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shoot it off, you'll have a clear view, right up to the point when you auger in! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif


Magnetos are the spark producing thingies. Little generators that don't need batteries for producing the juice to fire the spark plugs of an engine(Just like a motocross motorcycle). Two magnetos are for redundancy, so if one fails, you can still fly home. One fires one set of spark plugs per cylinder and the other magneto for the other set. So, two spark plugs per cylinder. Anyway, like was mentioned, leave them both on. Two plugs firing per cylinder provide better fuel ignition and burning and therefore a bit more power.

I didn't respond to another sig, did I?

karost
02-19-2005, 11:15 AM
What's so special about the BF-109?

- Mk108.. One Pass One Kill for Hit&Run http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
- no convergence for center gun hub
- Energy Combat style like playing chess
- Classical Callenging for a wise pilots


S!

F19_Ob
02-19-2005, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sterf21:

why is scissoring (especially with the BF109) better then normal turning, in an attempt to outturn them ?

And in the meanwhile, to make it clear, could anyone explain the scissor theory ? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The defender is the one trying to start a scissoring fight.
The general idea is to throw the enemy behind off aim and/or try to force an overshoot by loosing speed (= The enemy either dont want to loose his speed or cant stay behind and have to break off so he dont end up infront of u).
The speeds in a scissoring fight can get very low and the advantage lies with the experienced pilot and the plane with better lowspeed characteristics in wich the 109 is ideal.
Note that there are many variations on scissoring and the situation varies also depending on plane.


Scissoring in the 109 is especially favorable
because of its good accelleration and climb aswell as gentle stall.
Stalling becomes extra dangerous if u are in a plane that has a nasty stall and is prone to spinning.
Several Allied planes like the p39 turns very well in one direction but is difficult to handle when altering turns quickly in slow speeds.
If a P-39 snapstalls it takes longer time to recover compared to the 109 and it may enter a spinn. On low altitude planes with bad lowspeed characteristics take big risks if they scissor.
A 109 caught low on the deck by a P-39 really wants to enter a scissoring fight.

So, a 109 may have trouble getting away from a P39, spitfire or P-40 in a level turn, but in a scissoring fight it may even turn the tables and win the fight.
So a 109 has the upperhand in starting a scissor and countering a scissor.
The two most difficult foes for the 109 is the La5-7 and yak3.
If it is a p40 from the same year it may be a draw, but I still would want to be in the 109 if I had to choose.

Another thing that makes the 109 so dangerous in the scissor is its great accelleration and climb.
Planes with lesser energy may loose the little energy they have in the turns while the 109 still have power enough to add vertical moves in the turns and thus force the enemy behind to stall if he tries to counter the move.


What I could think of at the moment http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Stiglr
02-19-2005, 11:34 AM
Sterf21 wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Only one thing left: why is scissoring (especially with the BF109) better then normal turning, in an attempt to outturn them ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Scissoring is not a maneuver used to "outturn an enemy", it's a manuever used to force an overshoot. You should gain quite a bit of experience before you start trying to win scissor fights. As a relative newbie, I'd concentrate now on learning the basics of the energy fight and improving situational awareness (that is, knowing which planes are the biggest threats, what your energy state is vis a vis that threat, knowing if you have help, etc., all in the midst of combat).

LStarosta
02-19-2005, 03:26 PM
May I also say that I'd refrain from jumping into late-war 109's just because they're late war. Some people think they have the ultimate edge because they have the best engines and the best equipment. You'll really learn to appreciate the 109 if you fly the whole series, starting with the Emil. Then go to the Freidrich, which will be a whole world apart from the Emil... Then try the early Gustavs. Then the later Gustavs. And finally the Kurfurst. Then you will see what German pilots meant when they said that towards the end of the war the 109 was spoiled. That's why I love early war 109's all the way through the G2. Later 109's just don't have that feel to them anymore. Good thing the 190 came around, because that plane has beautiful maneuverability and performance, something the late 109s begin to lack, especially in the department of high speed control surface authority...

carguy_
02-19-2005, 05:25 PM
Manual prop pitch has been very efficiently ruined by 1C in one of the last AEP patches.It is not worth risking immediate engine death for extra 200RPM.I guess it is ok cuz like the real LW pilots most prefer auto pp all the way since the patch.


With manual pp Me109 really,I mean REALLY shined.Could outclimb almost any enemy hands down.

Now auto holds it at max 2800RPM which is a not so funny joke.Easy to estimate how much performance has been taken from Me109 if you`re talking about 400RPM.

Plus the dreaded manual mix change in Emil.It has 5min combat power left now to return home.

Hopefully the margin of performance is too big for ppl with agenda to ruin the Me109 completely.

However,the plane has been there since IL2 so we know it inside out.


The nerfed-enriched Me109 patch change history balance stays with the first one.

Stiglr
02-19-2005, 05:49 PM
To be honest, though, the entire sim allows players to pretty much tool around at full throttle for a large % of their time in the air, with no repercussions. The truth is, most planes had cruise settings around 70% or so that they'd use to moderate the engine, saving 100%, plus boosts and WEP for combat climbs and combat action. That would probably total less than 10 minutes/hour of flight.

I've always felt that they originally planned to do engine management in the sim properly, until they found it squarely benefitted Luftwaffe planes much more than Allied planes, and then they "sanitized it", to eliminate the Axis benefit. Yeah, I know, it's conspiracy thinking, but that's truly how I see it. And Oleg's sim would certainly not be the first to, er, put a healthy dollop of handicapping in the recipe.

Axis planes' faults are usually modelled to the nth degree, and their positives neutralized, while Allied foibles are minimized and benefits done to the nth degree.

LStarosta
02-19-2005, 07:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
To be honest, though, the entire sim allows players to pretty much tool around at full throttle for a large % of their time in the air, with no repercussions. The truth is, most planes had cruise settings around 70% or so that they'd use to moderate the engine, saving 100%, plus boosts and WEP for combat climbs and combat action. That would probably total less than 10 minutes/hour of flight.

I've always felt that they originally planned to do engine management in the sim properly, until they found it squarely benefitted Luftwaffe planes much more than Allied planes, and then they "sanitized it", to eliminate the Axis benefit. Yeah, I know, it's conspiracy thinking, but that's truly how I see it. And Oleg's sim would certainly not be the first to, er, put a healthy dollop of handicapping in the recipe.

Axis planes' faults are usually modelled to the nth degree, and their positives neutralized, while Allied foibles are minimized and benefits done to the nth degree. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Comrade Oleg doesn't take kindly to Fascist ramblings like yours!!! Traitor!

Maple_Tiger
02-19-2005, 08:13 PM
The BF109 makes a nice target plane to shoo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gift at.

MaxMhz
02-19-2005, 08:35 PM
The Bf109 (any type) is far ahead of its time and tricky like hell!
It would be the Red Barron's plane realy of WW2
Its one instance where man and machine combined make the kill
sometimes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

and then you'd have to know to fly it too lol

F19_Ob
02-20-2005, 04:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
To be honest, though, the entire sim allows players to pretty much tool around at full throttle for a large % of their time in the air, with no repercussions. The truth is, most planes had cruise settings around 70% or so that they'd use to moderate the engine, saving 100%, plus boosts and WEP for combat climbs and combat action. That would probably total less than 10 minutes/hour of flight.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that people fly differently in the game than they would have done in ww2 and dont conserve the engine lifetime, but aeveryone does it.

It was also 'possible' to fly on high throttlesettings for long periods but that led to the shorter engine life wich we dont have to bother with since we get a fresh fighter on every re-spawn. In RL also the risk of future engine problems and minor damage was a high and that ofcourse was the reason for saving the engine with the cruising speeds.
Many pilots had to abort mission because of minor engine problems and those aren't modeled in the sim. So, I belive most of us have a careless attitude with our engines.

Many also dont know that the boost only was used a couple of minutes at the time but could be used on several occasions until the boost fluids were exhausted. Instead they fly boosted 10 minutes and that surely would damage an engine ( acording to the pilots descriptions I've read).

There are no rules of engagements to worry about wich leads to combatsituations that were rare and many do stunts and often put themselves in situations that most real pilots would avoid if they could.
The list of unlikely behavior can be made long.

So, I guess we just have to accept that we are used to fly in a sim environment rather than a real one and thus have another approach to the planes and combat than real ww2 pilots had in general.

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-20-2005, 04:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S.h.r.i.k.e:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sterf21:

Why is a spiral climb better then a straight climb ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My understanding is that spiral climbing is better for a couple reasons:

First, as has already been mentioned, in a spiral climb, you are more difficult to shoot down.

Second, when you are in a spiral climb, there is a vertical component of the force of lift upwards. This vertical component helps "pull" your plane higher.
When you fly straight upwards (perpendicular to the ground), the force of lift is basically parrallel to the ground. Thus, it is not helping your plane to get any higher. Your plane is not taking advantage of the lift generated by the wings.
So, everything else being the same (except time, it does take a little longer to stall in a spiral climb), you can actually gain more altitude in a spiral climb than you can gain in a straight vertical climb before stalling out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not quite sure I follow you here.

There's is ALWAYS a vertical component of lift, upwards. This is what keeps the aircraft in the air http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

There is an optimum angle of attack, beyond which your wing design is no longer producing enough vertical component to keep the plane in the air. For aircraft of this period I believe this was no higher than about 15-20 degrees.

Now when you're spiral climbing, you are wasting energy in affecting a change in velocity of the aircraft (velocity is a vector quantity, so both magnitude and direction are factors). This is energy that therefore is unavailable to be used in moving the plane forwards and up. So, and bearing in mind the proviso that I am also not an aeronautical engineer, I would assert that spiral climbing is LESS efficient than straight climbing.

F19_Ob
02-20-2005, 05:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SnapdLikeAMutha:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S.h.r.i.k.e:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sterf21:

Why is a spiral climb better then a straight climb ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My understanding is that spiral climbing is better for a couple reasons:

First, as has already been mentioned, in a spiral climb, you are more difficult to shoot down.

Second, when you are in a spiral climb, there is a vertical component of the force of lift upwards. This vertical component helps "pull" your plane higher.
When you fly straight upwards (perpendicular to the ground), the force of lift is basically parrallel to the ground. Thus, it is not helping your plane to get any higher. Your plane is not taking advantage of the lift generated by the wings.
So, everything else being the same (except time, it does take a little longer to stall in a spiral climb), you can actually gain more altitude in a spiral climb than you can gain in a straight vertical climb before stalling out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not quite sure I follow you here.

There's is ALWAYS a vertical component of lift, upwards. This is what keeps the aircraft in the air http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

There is an optimum angle of attack, beyond which your wing design is no longer producing enough vertical component to keep the plane in the air. For aircraft of this period I believe this was no higher than about 15-20 degrees.

Now when you're spiral climbing, you are wasting energy in affecting a change in velocity of the aircraft (velocity is a vector quantity, so both magnitude and direction are factors). This is energy that therefore is unavailable to be used in moving the plane forwards and up. So, and bearing in mind the proviso that I am also not an aeronautical engineer, I would assert that spiral climbing is LESS efficient than straight climbing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No... the main idea with a spiral climb is that the plane behind with lesser energy is forced to try to pull lead on the plane with higher E and thus loose the little E he had from start.
The 109 for example is better equipped for this maneuver than most planes and will be able to continue a spiral almost until zero speed.
Most allied planes will have no possibillities to follow and will likely snapstall if trying to pull lead in too slow speed.

However an expert understands the situation and may counter it in several ways, or if he is a crack deflectionshot he may maneuver directly to a spot ahead in the enemys flightpath and hang in his prop while spraying in the area the foe must pass.

There is usually no point entering a spiral- climb if both planes are at same combat speed.
If both are on very low speed a 109 may climb above if its not a La7 or maybe a yak3.

So a spiralclimbing 109 with more E would have the advantage even over another 109 with lesser E.
Its the Leadpulling with less E for the chaser that is the main problem in this tactic.

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-20-2005, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Ob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SnapdLikeAMutha:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S.h.r.i.k.e:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sterf21:

Why is a spiral climb better then a straight climb ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My understanding is that spiral climbing is better for a couple reasons:

First, as has already been mentioned, in a spiral climb, you are more difficult to shoot down.

Second, when you are in a spiral climb, there is a vertical component of the force of lift upwards. This vertical component helps "pull" your plane higher.
When you fly straight upwards (perpendicular to the ground), the force of lift is basically parrallel to the ground. Thus, it is not helping your plane to get any higher. Your plane is not taking advantage of the lift generated by the wings.
So, everything else being the same (except time, it does take a little longer to stall in a spiral climb), you can actually gain more altitude in a spiral climb than you can gain in a straight vertical climb before stalling out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not quite sure I follow you here.

There's is ALWAYS a vertical component of lift, upwards. This is what keeps the aircraft in the air http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

There is an optimum angle of attack, beyond which your wing design is no longer producing enough vertical component to keep the plane in the air. For aircraft of this period I believe this was no higher than about 15-20 degrees.

Now when you're spiral climbing, you are wasting energy in affecting a change in velocity of the aircraft (velocity is a vector quantity, so both magnitude and direction are factors). This is energy that therefore is unavailable to be used in moving the plane forwards and up. So, and bearing in mind the proviso that I am also not an aeronautical engineer, I would assert that spiral climbing is LESS efficient than straight climbing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No... the main idea with a spiral climb is that the plane behind with lesser energy is forced to try to pull lead on the plane with higher E and thus loose the little E he had from start.
The 109 for example is better equipped for this maneuver than most planes and will be able to continue a spiral almost until zero speed.
Most allied planes will have no possibillities to follow and will likely snapstall if trying to pull lead in too slow speed.

However an expert understands the situation and may counter it in several ways, or if he is a crack deflectionshot he may maneuver directly to a spot ahead in the enemys flightpath and hang in his prop while spraying in the area the foe must pass.

There is usually no point entering a spiral- climb if both planes are at same combat speed.
If both are on very low speed a 109 may climb above if its not a La7 or maybe a yak3.

So a spiralclimbing 109 with more E would have the advantage even over another 109 with lesser E.
Its the Leadpulling with less E for the chaser that is the main problem in this tactic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To clarify: I was talking about its utility as a method for gaining altitude, rather than its value as a combat tactic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F19_Ob
02-20-2005, 07:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SnapdLikeAMutha:
To clarify: I was talking about its utility as a method for gaining altitude, rather than its value as a combat tactic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see....well in that case one can say that its a good method when chased but generally bad for best climb when not chased. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Other than that a shallow spiraling climb gives fairly ok climbrate and enables a good look around. This is the method I use online when climbing to altitude above my airfield and at the same time cover friendly planes taking off and landing.

Perhaps I'm overly fond of adding a horisontal element in my climbs, just incase someone gets the idea to target me in the climb, wich some pilots have as a trademark... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Sterf21
02-20-2005, 07:36 AM
Well ok.... I've read it all.... and now I know how to gain advantage with a 109, but how can you ever win from a late-war spitfire ? those things are just like jetfighters in dogfights !!!

karost
02-20-2005, 08:01 AM
"a spiral climb" that will become old tactic but still work to access to rope drop process
but have to use this tactic outside enemy-gun range otherwise you was defelct shooting from .50 that bad.

for opening state of combat, the one who have a good S.A. will make decision to plot a nice strategy pattern before get close to the dot. and only one pass we will know each other who will win to the next move, if we both have a experience.

if my target is p-51 I will keep him follow me to lower 6K but if I meet La5 I will keep stay higher 6K , then we have to looking for a bad decision from each other.

109 is not a good plane but challeging plane.
meet p-51 and plying with defensive style is very danger style coz, only one bad decision to give him spay .50 to you event a minor hit but that will damange your advantage and the table will turn to lose combat. so I like to surprise him by shoot him first with high degree of deflection shooting event we fly pass , that was save my life http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , so the one who has a good deflection shooting will have more chance to down grade opponent's performace advantage.

but if I meet a smart p-51 in energy style he will smile after fisrt pass pull up to convert his energy and look back at me like playing chess what I gona do..? if I keep turn hard to him I'm a foo for sure, if I play "a spiral climb" well that seem not bad , but he will smile coz he still have a big energy to revers follow me by keep run with high speed and soon he will get close to gun range and spray his .50 at me , well that bad right ? so if I keep "spiral climb" like that I am a foo for sure then extend is the best way by spit-S stay under his gunsigh and apply lag spiral drive , yes old hand 109 guys know that bf-109 has a big drang foce from violen drive , so what p-51 guy will do ...? if he keep follow at close I will smile but if he keep his energy and alt advantage to play BnZ with me that's bad for me. like playing chess ...every second so dynamic and hard to expain. who make a mistake that man will bail out and the game is over.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

F19_Ob
02-20-2005, 08:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sterf21:
Well ok.... I've read it all.... and now I know how to gain advantage with a 109, but how can you ever win from a late-war spitfire ? those things are just like jetfighters in dogfights !!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Against an equally skilled pilot U should have a hard time since they are so close in performance. Both have good armament and can cripple the opponent out of fighting condition.

I would suggest 2 things.

1. Practice high-angle deflectionshots, also on long distances up to 500m, so u have an idea how much lead is required on all distances.
Its hard to hit with a single shot at 500m but a spraying burst with 30mm cannonshells may enable one hit, and if the enemy is damaged its well worth the wasting, especially if the alternative is that the enemy can improve his angle on U.
This will maximise your shooting opportunities.

2. At equal high speed a spitfire may outturn U at best constant speed,
but in very slow speeds the spitfire is slightly harder and snapstalls easier and may spinn.
The accelleration and climb aswell as gentle stall in the 109 is better at slowest speeds but its another thing to manage to fool the spit to expend his E aswell.

The spit is better than the p39 in scissoring
and the heavy mg's and two 20mm cannons enables a greater spray in close scissoring and gives good possibilities of a hit when U pass each other.
Lowspeed scissoring this is one of few methods and the one I preferI if I am on the disadvantage.
When I have managed to get a spit slow and If I'm undamaged I know I have a fair chance to get away by using my accelleration and climb to try to outclimb him.
Although the spit is good, his accelleration from slowspeed is a bit slower and he must be skilled to pull lead on me without snappstalling.

One trick Wich is difficult but effective is to pull up sharplywith the 109 in slow speed (requires some practise) and then bunt level when u have climbed to the limit.
In many cases, if I have judged the situation correctly, a spit equally slow that try to follow and pull lead will flip and in best case spinn. If he recovers he will be very low on speed and will flip in every attempt in turning because his lesser accelleration at slow speed.
This is one of the few advantages I can think of and it still have small margins.

So, no overwhelming advantage. The outcome will depend on the pilot and/or the initial position and angle of the combattants when the fight begins.


well...my thoughts

karost
02-20-2005, 08:37 AM
I agree with F19_Ob with meet a good spitfire

I don't like to get close to spitfire so my tactic is apply a maximum energy charge him and extend if I have mk108 seem not problem but if I have 151/20 I become a noob for sure event I'm a master of defelction shooting coz 151/20 not generate a big damage enough when I have a golden oppotunity. but I just a foo for one thing spitfire don't has a "combat flap" so I start research of looking a black hold of spitfire when speed between 350 km/h that speed for 109 with combat flap will make somthing that spirt cannot, now to deal with spirt will become chanlleging to me much , event I don't like turn figh pattern , but out turn spirt with this trick will surprise him much ....http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

FatBoyHK
02-20-2005, 09:36 AM
there is nothing special about 109, I eat them for breakfast everyday on WC http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Why for breakfast but not lunch or dinner? 'cos the US prime time is the morning here in Hong Kong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

just kidding http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif 109 in a good hand is very dangerous, and scissor is really its trimpt card.... This move can turn the table instantly, especailly when the allied pilot is overzealous.

I am a Mustang jock, and my advice is, never commit in a turnfight with a 109 unless you are 200% sure you are going to hit him and hit them hard, otherwise you should make a high speed pass, zoom up, and try again. It may give him a good chance to escape, but 109s are everywhere, you can found another one in no time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And if you do screw up and let him turn the table, don't panic, as long as you know that early enough you can always dive away. It is why altitute is so important for a Mustang, its poor low-speed performance is more than compensated by its excellent dive and high-speed performance, but to enjoy that you must have some alt to spare.

I would suggest UDet1, if you want to watch and learn go to WC and look for him, he is the master of 109.... and some of the JV44 guys are good at 109 too. But Other than that, there are not so many 109 aces, AFAIK.

LStarosta
02-20-2005, 09:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
there is nothing special about 109, I eat them for breakfast everyday on WC http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Why for breakfast but not lunch or dinner? 'cos the US prime time is the morning here in Hong Kong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

just kidding http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif 109 in a good hand is very dangerous, and scissor is really its trimpt card.... This move can turn the table instantly, especailly when the allied pilot is overzealous.

I am a Mustang jock, and my advice is, never commit in a turnfight with a 109 unless you are 200% sure you are going to hit him and hit them hard, otherwise you should make a high speed pass, zoom up, and try again. It may give him a good chance to escape, but 109s are everywhere, you can found another one in no time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And if you do screw up and let him turn the table, don't panic, as long as you know that early enough you can always dive away. It is why altitute is so important for a Mustang, its poor low-speed performance is more than compensated by its excellent dive and high-speed performance, but to enjoy that you must have some alt to spare.

I would suggest UDet1, if you want to watch and learn go to WC and look for him, he is the master of 109.... and some of the JV44 guys are good at 109 too. But Other than that, there are not so many 109 aces, AFAIK. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You talk about just zooming up and trying again like it were something so simple...

You never stopped to think that there was another 109 ready to tear you a new one just as you climaxed in your zoom climb?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Stiglr
02-20-2005, 11:51 AM
F19_Ob wrote (about flying full throttle in the sim):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So, I guess we just have to accept that we are used to fly in a sim environment rather than a real one and thus have another approach to the planes and combat than real ww2 pilots had in general. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't have to give up THAT easy. The designer simply has to care enough about accuracy to put a design element in the sim that forces that particular behavior.

In Targetware (http://www.targetware.net), if you run most engines full out, with no regard to its continuted operation, you'll soon find yourself trailing a thin grey banner of smoke... or worse.

You simply *must* manage your throttle, your RPMs, your fuel mixture, your cooling flaps, your critical alt for superchargers that aren't automatic, ALL of it (unless the particular server you're flying on has AutoCool activated).

In the case of this sim, I think they could do it, and I think they DID do it, at one point... until they found out how much it benefitted the 109s and Focke Wulfs, and how much it challenged the pilots of almost all other planes... so the entire feature was quickly minimized in its effect.

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-20-2005, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
F19_Ob wrote (about flying full throttle in the sim):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So, I guess we just have to accept that we are used to fly in a sim environment rather than a real one and thus have another approach to the planes and combat than real ww2 pilots had in general. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't have to give up THAT easy. The designer simply has to care enough about accuracy to put a design element in the sim that forces that particular behavior.

In http://www.targetware.net, if you run most engines full out, with no regard to its continuted operation, you'll soon find yourself trailing a thin grey banner of smoke... or worse.

You simply *must* manage your throttle, your RPMs, your fuel mixture, your cooling flaps, your critical alt for superchargers that aren't automatic, ALL of it (unless the particular server you're flying on has AutoCool activated).

In the case of this sim, I think they _could_ do it, and I think they _DID_ do it, at one point... until they found out how much it benefitted the 109s and Focke Wulfs, and how much it challenged the pilots of almost all other planes... so the entire feature was quickly minimized in its effect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was the engine management automated to a larger extent on the FW190 and BF109 then? ( Apologies, but as far as history goes I am more of a naval kind of chap than an aircraft one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

F0_Dark_P
02-20-2005, 12:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Was the engine management automated to a larger extent on the FW190 and BF109 then? ( Apologies, but as far as history goes I am more of a naval kind of chap than an aircraft one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, the only "management" you needed to do was push on the fuelcock leaver and start the engine, and on the FW190 you diden't eaven need to bother with the fuelcock, no fiddling with fuel mixture here, one example of excellent german engineering http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

but what i dont get is why all say that the 109 turn sucks?! in a low speed turn with my G2 i can out turn almost all, or just give them a very hard time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Stiglr
02-20-2005, 03:23 PM
Indeed, snapped. The 109 was one of few contemporary planes to have automated prop pitch controls. And the FW190 was an engineerinig marvel for its time, because it had "electric everything" in the cockpit.

Both planes were pretty automatic, compared to most other planes of the time where you had to keep track of fuel, engine, prop, and all that stuff with rudimentary dials and mechanical switches. It added a lot of pilot workload that could distract you at a VERY key moment.

p1ngu666
02-20-2005, 06:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
Manual prop pitch has been very efficiently ruined by 1C in one of the last AEP patches.It is not worth risking immediate engine death for extra 200RPM.I guess it is ok cuz like the real LW pilots most prefer auto pp all the way since the patch.


With manual pp Me109 really,I mean REALLY shined.Could outclimb almost any enemy hands down.

Now auto holds it at max 2800RPM which is a not so funny joke.Easy to estimate how much performance has been taken from Me109 if you`re talking about 400RPM.

Plus the dreaded manual mix change in Emil.It has 5min combat power left now to return home.

Hopefully the margin of performance is too big for ppl with agenda to ruin the Me109 completely.

However,the plane has been there since IL2 so we know it inside out.


The nerfed-enriched Me109 patch change history balance stays with the first one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh noes, u cant overboost your plane at will? **** that must suck, being stuck at historic performance http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

stiglr, not sure how much advantage automatic everything is, as u still haveto check everything...

allies used cps props, probably made for long range aircraft, to hold 2000rpm or whatever... imagine trying to work out your airfuel milage on 109 while your using manual pitch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

think mix, throttle and rad flaps are often done with the pilot anyways. think 109 u could use automatic rad, but 190a didnt have automatic rad..

karost
02-21-2005, 07:11 AM
What's so special about the BF109 ?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
You simply *must* manage your throttle, your RPMs, your fuel mixture, your cooling flaps, your critical alt for superchargers that aren't automatic, ALL of it (unless the particular server you're flying on has AutoCool activated).

In the case of this sim, I think they _could_ do it, and I think they _DID_ do it, at one point... until they found out how much it benefitted the 109s and Focke Wulfs, and how much it challenged the pilots of almost all other planes... so the entire feature was quickly minimized in its effect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F0_Dark_P:
yes, the only "management" you needed to do was push on the fuelcock leaver and start the engine, and on the FW190 you diden't eaven need to bother with the fuelcock, no fiddling with fuel mixture here, one example of excellent german engineering http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well... sound no fair play for 'History' right ?

in BOB, Oleg will do the same thing like this again ??? hmm .... just wonder ?

for real BOB, BF-109 can "first" flying NAGATIVE G Drive http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

FatBoyHK
02-21-2005, 08:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
You talk about just zooming up and trying again like it were something so simple...

You never stopped to think that there was another 109 ready to tear you a new one just as you climaxed in your zoom climb?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, you are right in some extent, but this apply to any bandit, even a J8A :P

and, ironically, this is exactly my favorite way to cook my breakfast, when they are trying to pull off their uber stall-speed climb to beat someone else..... they are already well-done before they know what has happened to them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

the point is, you can live much longer if you are not too greedy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I rarely do a straight-up zoom climb, it is just too risky, don't worth it.

Franzen
02-21-2005, 09:28 AM
There's a nice tactic I found with the 109. I use this when I got something fast on my 6. I go for high speed, a little dive. When I'm at the right alt I do a kind of hi-g barrel roll. I roll to the right with full rudder in the opposite direction. What happens is I start to blackout and come pretty close to the ground, but never crash. My enemy usually hits the ground behind me if he tries to follow. I've tried it in other planes but could never do it.

If my enemy was lucky enough not to kiss the dirt, then he's usually going off at a 60 degree angle away from me. By this time I've already got alt advantage and turning toward him. I use this often and has never failed me, not even once.

Sorry I can't explain exactly how to do it but just try what I've said a few times. You'll get it. It's basically a high speed, large barrel roll in a slight dive. Once you reach the bottom go for a spiral climb.

Fritz Franzen