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View Full Version : OT: LOMAC, what's the challenge???



XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:23 PM
You're tooling along in your F-15, the CRT in the instrument panel shows a flashing icon which indicates E/A 18 Km 1 oclock low, so you press a button and watch a missile fly away. I don't get it.


...............................
...______________....
..............|..............
...........[]O[]...........
..........(.......)..........
...........HHH..........
.........>/.....\<.........
...............................
When you've beed captured, you'll be wishing for one of these:

http://www.germanvtol.com/flettnerfolder/fl282y.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:23 PM
You're tooling along in your F-15, the CRT in the instrument panel shows a flashing icon which indicates E/A 18 Km 1 oclock low, so you press a button and watch a missile fly away. I don't get it.


...............................
...______________....
..............|..............
...........[]O[]...........
..........(.......)..........
...........HHH..........
.........>/.....\<.........
...............................
When you've beed captured, you'll be wishing for one of these:

http://www.germanvtol.com/flettnerfolder/fl282y.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:27 PM
Good Point. Hope there is a way to have guns only on in a DF room or as you say whats the point



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:30 PM
SKULLS_LZ wrote:
- You're tooling along in your F-15, the CRT in the
- instrument panel shows a flashing icon which
- indicates E/A 18 Km 1 oclock low, so you press a
- button and watch a missile fly away. I don't get
- it.
-
-


You are so right..... that is exactly what Air Combat in the modern age is like. Why do they even train pilots? they should get a load of counterstrikers in the cockpit of real f-15s. I mean its so easy maybe you should go train the USAF since you are obviously such an expert.


Nate




Message Edited on 08/26/0310:33PM by Nate--IRL--

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:30 PM
you dont obviously, the challenge is dodging missiles, like SAMs and radar guided AAA, and enemy fighters then you have to drop the bombs whist being attacked by multiple missiles and the like...

You have to be alot smarter in the ingress/egress and such.
You have to hide from enemy radars and gotta know how to use your jammer....and so on and on

And alot of the time you have to use guns so that also makes it even more difficult.

http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/griffon.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:34 PM
The point is to simulate modern air combat.

If your not interested in it, don't buy it, I'm sure there are some that will thoroughly enjoy it and, others who will buy it and then do nothing but complain about every little aspect of it. Just like here. If fact, it looks like its already started and the game hasn't even been released.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:34 PM
LOL

that's like saying 'what's the point of WW2 fighting.. all you do is point at the enemy plane, and shoot.'

.. if that's all you think there is to modern air combat.. heh..

i look forward to blasting you out of the sky before you even see me /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

and of COURSE there will be a way to specify 'guns only' in dogfight scenarios..

anyways .. just cuz a missile is fired .. doesn't mean it will hit.. given warning.. missiles are quite easy to dodge if you know what you're doing

<center>Flanker-ProudBirds-VFW</center>
<center>http://www.escadrila54.com/logo_sm.jpg (http://proudbirdswing.tripod.com/proudbirds.htm)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:38 PM
S!
LOL I accept your challenge! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

You seem very confident in your abilities, so I assume you will take a MiG, and I'll be in the F-15? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


PBNA-Flanker wrote:
- LOL
-
- that's like saying 'what's the point of WW2
- fighting.. all you do is point at the enemy plane,
- and shoot.'
-
- .. if that's all you think there is to modern air
- combat.. heh..
-
- i look forward to blasting you out of the sky before
- you even see me <


...............................
...______________....
..............|..............
...........[]O[]...........
..........(.......)..........
...........HHH..........
.........>/.....\<.........
...............................
When you've beed captured, you'll be wishing for one of these:

http://www.germanvtol.com/flettnerfolder/fl282y.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:41 PM
well

i've always been partial to the Su-27 /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

hence my name hehehe

<center>Flanker-ProudBirds-VFW</center>
<center>http://www.escadrila54.com/logo_sm.jpg (http://proudbirdswing.tripod.com/proudbirds.htm)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:44 PM
I am with you on this one LZ... basically it comes down to admiring your plane and landscape...and looking at the radar once in the while.... For me it has to be close and personal..that`s why i`m so into prop ww2 sims.
But it`s strictly a matter of personal preferences.

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:04 PM
SKULLS_LZ wrote:
- You're tooling along in your F-15, the CRT in the
- instrument panel shows a flashing icon which
- indicates E/A 18 Km 1 oclock low, so you press a
- button and watch a missile fly away. I don't get
- it.

Its funny since the US airforce thought exactly the same thing when they went into the Vietnam war. Before long they realised that they needed guns on their aircraft, since they could not match the low-tech MiGs. Modern Air Combat is not about just looking at a screen and firing a missile. Just look at the videos on the website: http://www.lo-mac.com/movies.php
Also, remember that the A10, which is flyable in the game, is famous for its GAU8 30mm gun.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:12 PM
I was about to say. I will still be a ground-pounder when LOMAC comes out. My hog will be down in it and dropping iron. Sure I will fire off some Mavricks and maybe even a sidewinder or two, but most of it will still be up close and personal for me. I don't expect it to be anything close to easy either.

<marquee>Stukageschwader 77 : coming soon to an airbase near you. </marquee>

<center>http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/media/cleared/wolverine_th.jpg


Remember: It's not just a job, it's a chance to bomb the crap out of everything you see and NOT get called a dirty vulcher!
<center> founder of the GFC

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:14 PM
S!

I found this about the AIM-120:

The Slammer also has an astonishing record in both flight tests (once proper sofware was perfected) and in combat. For example, in one test over White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico, one F-15C Eagle ripple-fired four AIM-120A's at 4 QF-100 drones. The drones were performing evasive maneovers, releasing chaff, and were also equipped with jammers. All 4 AIM-120's hit the targets dead-on. This and other tests earned the nickname Slammer (One F-15 driver compared firing the AMRAAM at targets to being like clubbing baby seals), as well as other nicknames such as "The World War III Shot".

So, do you still want to go up against me in my F-15C in your Su-27? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

PBNA-Flanker wrote:
- well
-
- i've always been partial to the Su-27 /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif
-
- hence my name hehehe
-
- <center>Flanker-ProudBirds-VFW</center>
- <center><a
- href="http://proudbirdswing.tripod.com/proudbirds.
- htm">http://www.escadrila54.com/logo_sm.jpg</a><
- /center>
-




...............................
...______________....
..............|..............
...........[]O[]...........
..........(.......)..........
...........HHH..........
.........>/.....\<.........
...............................
When you've beed captured, you'll be wishing for one of these:

http://www.germanvtol.com/flettnerfolder/fl282y.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:18 PM
SKULLS_LZ wrote:
- S!
-
- I found this about the AIM-120:
-
- The Slammer also has an astonishing record in both
- flight tests (once proper sofware was perfected) and
- in combat. For example, in one test over White Sands
- Missile Range in New Mexico, one F-15C Eagle
- ripple-fired four AIM-120A's at 4 QF-100 drones. The
- drones were performing evasive maneovers, releasing
- chaff, and were also equipped with jammers. All 4
- AIM-120's hit the targets dead-on. This and other
- tests earned the nickname Slammer (One F-15 driver
- compared firing the AMRAAM at targets to being like
- clubbing baby seals), as well as other nicknames
- such as "The World War III Shot".
-

Sounds like a sales brouchre for the Amramm /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Nate

Edit: spellings /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Message Edited on 08/26/0311:19PM by Nate--IRL--

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:44 PM
The challange will be raising the money for your new CRAY computer system.

"Nothing difficult is ever easy"

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:48 PM
LMAO!

DING DING DING we have a winner!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


buz13 wrote:
- The challange will be raising the money for your new
- CRAY computer system.
-
- "Nothing difficult is ever easy"




...............................
...______________....
..............|..............
...........[]O[]...........
..........(.......)..........
...........HHH..........
.........>/.....\<.........
...............................
When you've beed captured, you'll be wishing for one of these:

http://www.germanvtol.com/flettnerfolder/fl282y.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:11 AM
SKULLS_LZ wrote:
- So, do you still want to go up against me in my
- F-15C in your Su-27?

Did much reading on the R-77 there, friend? It's got 90-100 kms range (that's 50 more than the AMRAAM /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:43 AM
cuski wrote:
-
- SKULLS_LZ wrote:
-- So, do you still want to go up against me in my
-- F-15C in your Su-27?
-
- Did much reading on the R-77 there, friend? It's got
- 90-100 kms range (that's 50 more than the AMRAAM
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )
-
http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg



Flankers are not R-77 capable. Nor are any of the flyable aircraft in LOMAC.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 12:51 AM
That's why I want to fly the A-10. You have to do all the work.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:01 AM
The radar in Flanker (1/2/2.5) doesn't work like that. If you have the radar on, you are announcing your presence out to _twice the range of your own radar_, so most of the time, you leave it switched off unless your RWR tells you that you've already been detected. If you tool around with the radar on, expecting that to find targets for you, you're asking to be zapped from behind and below. Plus, the radar on the Flanker scans a fixed (not sure about exact size) cone that is much less than you can see looking around.

You can jump enemy planes using the EOS to track targets passively, sneak up on them and zap them with guns or AA-8s before they know you're there. Or you can switch on the radar, and they'll turn and shoot back at you.

Missiles are only Fire and Forget in marketing and arcade games - it's possible to evade them in the Flanker games. I watched a Flanker 2.5 track of a Su27 evading 4 sidewinders and then nailing the two F-16's guns only. Missiles are "guided", not "magic". Using the funnel or the gunsight predictor properly is an art, and when I figured it out for flanker, it was immensely satisfying.

Plus, ground attack planes. Ground attack isn't just a missile firing exercise, you'll spend a lot of time getting in close with S-8 or S-13 rockets and guns, strafing tanks and PCs. It'll be great fun - just like flying the Il2 but faster, and with more ammo!

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:11 AM
Wind_Master wrote:
- Flankers are not R-77 capable. Nor are any of the
- flyable aircraft in LOMAC.


The Su-33 should be. And it's flyable. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Unless they chose not to implement it.

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg


Message Edited on 08/26/0305:13PM by cuski

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:15 AM
Beyond Visual Range Combat goes both ways, In that a missile is comming at you also. So you need to track your target and avoid incomming missles simulatneously

Medium range is anything but shoot and forget, you need to wait until the enemy is posistioned correctlty ( not too many Gs, not to high an angle off center ) for the missle to hit, Also, If your being pursued, you don't want to give you opponent that opportunity (different from avoiding gun fire )

Close range dog fights in jets with guns requires leading and deflection way beyond what's nessesary in WW2 aircraft

So it's like FB, but harder with 2 additional types of combat

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:25 AM
Propwiners is latest I guess. And yes all of the a/c's are overmodeled in that sim. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:34 AM
Wind_Master wrote:

-
- Flankers are not R-77 capable. Nor are any of the
- flyable aircraft in LOMAC.
-


This is Correct the SU-XX haven't got R-77 capability.

However the Mig-29S (9.13) does have R-77 capability and is modeled in LOMAC along with the earlier Mig-29A (9.12) and Mig-29G (9.12) wich do not have R-77 capability.

So your best chance against an F-15 is the Mig-29S

Nate

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:49 AM
I never play any modern FS before. So decide to give it a try. I think it's another exciting FS like FB.

Lt.Davis

http://www.angelfire.com/hero/apvg/tigerlogo01.jpg


**Speed is the KEY**

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 06:26 AM
Are the AWACs and Hawkeye air information centers. If LOMAC doesn't give the entire offensive/defensive electronics suites proper due (at least as an option) and implementation, then I am not interested in this game. Modern Russian jet fighters are very capable, but they'd get blown away with--information--they simply would never have access to, like their opponents in an air superiority slugfest would possess. I don't care what range a Russian bird can fire, it will be electronically spotted taking off by a BVR early warning bird with ridiculous capabilities and then intercept vectored in an attack its pilot would never see coming until it was maybe way too late, especially if it was shot at by an F-14 launching a Phoenix or two.

High speed gun "dogfighting" with B&Z jets and Wild Weasel missions? Bleech! The A-10 and the GAU might be the only long term attraction in the game if there is not a significant strategic component.

Name the last time an American jet went GUNS GUNS GUNS on an enemy dogfighter? Discounting the silly TOP GUN movie, you'd probably have to get into some Vietnam era archives to even find a successful use after missiles became "fire and (ahem) largely forget."



Message Edited on 08/26/0310:27PM by NavyFlyer

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:01 AM
Nate--IRL-- wrote:

- However the Mig-29S (9.13) does have R-77 capability
- and is modeled in LOMAC along with the earlier
- Mig-29A (9.12) and Mig-29G (9.12) wich do not have
- R-77 capability.
-
- So your best chance against an F-15 is the Mig-29S
-
- Nate
-
-

The Mig-29A and C are listed as flyable in the FAQ (which is admittedly dated), neither should carry R-77's. No other Fulcrums are mentioned (flyable or not).

Do you have some inside information? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:03 AM
NavyFlyer wrote:
- Are the AWACs and Hawkeye air information centers.
- If LOMAC doesn't give the entire offensive/defensive
- electronics suites proper due (at least as an
- option) and implementation, then I am not interested
- in this game.

Hawkeyes and Mainstays are there, as are ground based EWR and tracking systems.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:03 AM
Very well said NavyFlyer...neverthless I believe that LOMAC gonna be grat fun!

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:08 AM
One drawback: Modern jets are very complicated. I read that there will be over 200 keyboard commands for LOMAC. Who has time to learn all of that?

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:19 AM
zzzz lomac, you see the new video of the plane movement looks pretty shady, ill still probally buy it for carrier landings a few weeks after its released on ebay of course, bet its gunna be 15 bucks there, people will buy the game dislike its performance and sell it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter



Message Edited on 08/27/0307:21AM by LeadSpitter_

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:47 AM
Suckerpunch:

You don't use _all_ of the keyboard commands on every flight! FB Probably has nearly that many commands if you map every command, but I doubt anyone does. Flanker 2 had a good set of keys, with reference cards to walk you through the procedure for attacking targets using each HUD mode, and it doesn't get in the way of the game.

Example: (Anti radar missile)
1. Press 7 to switch to Air-to-ground missiles mode.
2. Select weapon with D
3. Point the aircraft at the threat, using your threat warning display.
4. Press tab to lock onto the target
5. Wait for the Launch cue to appear.
6. Pull trigger to fire.

----

With regards to AWACS, Flanker already had Russian AWACS, which could provide better & more complete radar information than you could get with your targetting radar. Of course, AWACS will always be priority targets, and because they have big active radars everyone knows where they are, so I expect they won't always be around. The E3 and Hawkeye planes were in flanker too I think. I don't think they'd take them away for LOMAC.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 08:57 AM
Huh. I wonder what the other 196 commands are for.

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:59 AM
hi,
the basic to use the challenge.. that's my hope..is the better basic camera view of the 3d game engine...

I'm looking forward to this..the cockpit panel use and pilots view opportunities...

anyway: a PCdashboard could be helpfull

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 11:10 AM
http://filiphorsky.szm.sk/f2videohb.wmv


hope the guy that made this video and whoever is hosting doesnt mind me putting this up. this is from flanker 2.51. so just imagine what lomac will be like...

<center>

http://members.cox.net/jakevas/thepic.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 01:55 PM
NavyFlyer wrote:
- Name the last time an American jet went GUNS GUNS
- GUNS on an enemy dogfighter? Discounting the silly
- TOP GUN movie, you'd probably have to get into some
- Vietnam era archives to even find a successful use
- after missiles became "fire and (ahem) largely
- forget."
Name the last time an American jet got into a dogfight with an enemy fighter. I'm sure its not for a very long time.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 02:31 PM
Wind_Master wrote:
-
-
- The Mig-29A and C are listed as flyable in the FAQ
- (which is admittedly dated), neither should carry
- R-77's. No other Fulcrums are mentioned (flyable or
- not).
-
- Do you have some inside information?
-

You are correct it is the Mig-29C not the Mig-29S in LOMAC, my bad. I'm not sure where i remembered that from, but i was fairly certain a Mig-29 with R-77 support was included.

I will ask around at the Lomac board for more info.

Nate

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 03:18 PM
Ok did some research...........God i hate russian aircraft designations /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Nato applied the "Fulcrum C" title to the Mig-29C (9.13) AND the Mig-29S (9.13S)

It seems it is the "Fulcrum C" (9.13S) which is modeled in Lomac not the Mig-29C (9.13)

Hope that helps and confused the hell out of you, as it did me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Some info.... http://www.fabulousfulcrums.de/Varianten_e.htm

Nate

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 05:12 PM
If lomac is so unchallenging, maybe we should all go and watch this guy!
http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/art/authorphoto/cookie.jpg


I bet he can keep us entertained!

<marquee>Stukageschwader 77 : coming soon to an airbase near you. </marquee>

<center>http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/media/cleared/wolverine_th.jpg


Remember: It's not just a job, it's a chance to bomb the crap out of everything you see and NOT get called a dirty vulcher!
<center> founder of the GFC

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 05:15 PM
Cookie Monster could teach you asshats a thing or two about the A-10!

http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/art/authorphoto/cookie.jpg

<html>
<body>
<p align="center"><a href="http://www.jg27.net/">http://www.templeofthegoddess.com/files/Pictures/sigs/Crashsig1.jpg
</body>
</html>

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 05:42 PM
StG77-Fennec's sig (if I'm not mistaken) really shows the main point of modern airfare
"I will shoot you with teh missile"
But the fact is that no big-scale modern air combat has taken place yet, so there is no way we can accusate the modern airfare of being unfair
Don't forget that by the 30's monoplanes were considered dangerous (in UK IIRC) and their projects were not accepted by the government /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/reincarnation.jpg (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
Are you damned? (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
<

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 05:44 PM
http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/art/authorphoto/cookie.jpg

'Smoke and a pancake?'

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 09:28 PM
EDtheHead6445 wrote:
- NavyFlyer wrote:
-- Name the last time an American jet went GUNS GUNS
-- GUNS on an enemy dogfighter? Discounting the silly
-- TOP GUN movie, you'd probably have to get into some
-- Vietnam era archives to even find a successful use
-- after missiles became "fire and (ahem) largely
-- forget."

- Name the last time an American jet got into a
- dogfight with an enemy fighter. I'm sure its not for
- a very long time.
-
SNIPPED SIG

Well I guess that is my point in a nutshell really. Modern air combat has been exclusively BVR for a long time as computing and missiles became more capable, and testosterone aside, that is probably the preferred method of taking out enemy aircraft compared to staking the integrity of multi-million dollar aircraft to an A2A gatling gun fired by another multi-million dollar opponent.

You want to missile/gun knife fight with things that can see you and shoot back? Get an AH-64 sim. For BVR icons running into each other on a scope get a version of Harpoon. LOMAC strikes me as being a pretty scenery flight simulator, albeit in fastforward, with the exception of turning the A-10 loose on something. In a modern fighter jet 'full real' would be "Let's fly around and stand-off blast icons on a CRT and dodge SAMs if we have to get that close at all!"

I'd love an updated sim that squared off the F-86 and the MIG-15 over the skies of 1951 Korea. Guns and jet performance in a realistic scenario bristling with plenty of ground targets and see-saw strategic action hinging on the jet-jocks ability to maintain control of the skies.

As for LOMAC, I'll pass on the hype until I get to try a demo.

Bearcat101
08-27-2003, 10:15 PM
You prop-whiners can have your .50 Cals....

While I get this:

http://lrpictures.homestead.com/files/rounds2.jpg


"-When in doubt, empty your magazine.
-Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than you are.
-Never forget that your weapon was made by the lowest bidder.
-If your attack is going really well, it's an ambush.
-No plan survives the first contact intact.
-All 5 second grenade fuses burn down in 3 seconds." Excerpt from Murphy's Laws

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 10:37 PM
NavyFlyer wrote:
- I'd love an updated sim that squared off the F-86
- and the MIG-15 over the skies of 1951 Korea. Guns
- and jet performance in a realistic scenario
- bristling with plenty of ground targets and see-saw
- strategic action hinging on the jet-jocks ability to
- maintain control of the skies.
NO SIG TO SNIP

I agree with you- I would also like to see a Korean War sim (see my thread http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zaesy .)
However, I really like the look of LOMAC- it seems to be a completely different challenge from IL2FB- and I intend to get it when it is released.


To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 11:02 PM
Modern A/C do NOT fly with their RADAR on!!!

At least, they wouldn't in war time.

Here is why: you can 'see' an active RADAR on a passive system at about twice the range that an active RADAR can see you.

So, you understand why its dumb to broadcast your position to anyone in the vicinity. The guy who knows where you are can get out of your RADAR cone and fire a heat seeker from your blindspot (which will not activate any warnings in your 'pit' because heatseekers are entirely passive) and you will die before you know what hit you. This is if you are a dumb pilot.

This situation leads to groups of enemy A/C blundering in to each other because each is passive and their first cue being visual contact, at which point its time for guns and heatseeker missiles (think smart rockets, they are relatively short ranged).


Also, while dodging missiles, the fights can quickly turn into turnbattles and furballs in modern A/C.

Both sides launch missiles, both sides evade, and at the speed they go, the survivors of the missile volley are so mixed up they switch to guns and blast away at unfriendly profiles.


Moder aircombat is much more hotblooded than you would thing. You only get a clean missile kill if you are lucky or your opponent is stupid.



Besides, they model sonic booms in LOMAC. How cool is that?

XyZspineZyX
08-27-2003, 11:35 PM
Aflak wrote:
- Modern A/C do NOT fly with their RADAR on!!!
-
- At least, they wouldn't in war time.

Which is why at least Western Air Forces with the capability use C&C aircraft flying a track and guarded from attack. A plane with active emissions that the opponent cannot get to can "see" for everyone and guide attackers to A2A targets relying on passive detection and what the pilot can actually see. Add ECM craft and other jamming sources to the mix and it is easy to see why the USAF and USN have not had a true dogfight for decades.

- Here is why: you can 'see' an active RADAR on a
- passive system at about twice the range that an
- active RADAR can see you.

And a bird that can see everyone and is protected from attack could care less if you know where it is as an opponent. The electronic battlefield is not a level one and hasn't been since the late 70s.

- So, you understand why its dumb to broadcast your
- position to anyone in the vicinity. The guy who
- knows where you are can get out of your RADAR cone
- and fire a heat seeker from your blindspot (which
- will not activate any warnings in your 'pit' because
- heatseekers are entirely passive) and you will die
- before you know what hit you. This is if you are a
- dumb pilot.

Again, to be correctly modeled for the EM sphere, C&C birds would have to be in the game or it is an arcade game given the reality of modern A2A combat. Modern long range A2A missiles also are so fast that even if one knows they are coming, it is usually too late to do anything about it, as they are preprogrammed to intercept a known target at a predicted time and altitude based on initial targeting input and remain passive until the last possible moment when they paint their target for a lock. The model of getting a lock from the A2A radar aboard the fighter itself has long been pretty old school.

- This situation leads to groups of enemy A/C
- blundering in to each other because each is passive
- and their first cue being visual contact, at which
- point its time for guns and heatseeker missiles
- (think smart rockets, they are relatively short
- ranged).

Again, that is only true if relying solely upon the battle info compiled by the participants' onboard radars and such, not when C&C is properly employed from an early warning bird, phased array naval or ground based radars, or other electronic detection.

- Also, while dodging missiles, the fights can quickly
- turn into turnbattles and furballs in modern A/C.

Not that this ever happens outside of artifical force on force training exercises to keep pilots happy. When forced to fight live opposition, the fight returns to its very uneven BVR stand-off, look down/shoot down that technology has wrought for those who can afford to employ it.

- Both sides launch missiles, both sides evade, and at
- the speed they go, the survivors of the missile
- volley are so mixed up they switch to guns and blast
- away at unfriendly profiles.

Except that one side will always shoot first, at a greater distance, with better firing solutions, while the opposition doesn't even know it has been targeted, and we all know which side that is.

- Moder aircombat is much more hotblooded than you
- would thing. You only get a clean missile kill if
- you are lucky or your opponent is stupid.

Modern air combat is a lot more cold-blooded in reality than it is in sims or training exercises. Clean missile kills are entirely possible, and the norm, when one does everything right on both sides, but one side dominates the electronic and information spheres. That is how it has played out in reality from the 1980s onward.

- Besides, they model sonic booms in LOMAC. How cool
- is that?

Personally, my draw would be supermanueverability via vectored thrust control.

XyZspineZyX
08-28-2003, 05:04 AM
Ask a real F-15 pilot who's flown in any of the skirmishes in recent years. They'll tell you what the point is. The point is to kill before you get killed, to survive another day. You get them dogding your missiles before you are dogding theirs, split seconds count.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755