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freakvollder
06-11-2009, 11:03 AM
Not many opponents can out E a late 109 model, at best you’ll be at par, but that can spell really bad news...
I have read this some time ago.

When you take two pilots with nearly the same flying skills in energy fighting, is there any other plane in the game that can out E a late 109 in a realistic 1944 scenario?

Salute

na85
06-11-2009, 11:06 AM
P-51

X32Wright
06-11-2009, 11:43 AM
Tempest or P-47D too if the flyer is good.

DKoor
06-11-2009, 11:57 AM
There are several planes which are as good or better than 109 in the dive and climb game...
But practically none can live to tell the tale in sustained climb vs 109 on its tail. That thing really climbs exceptionally.

stalkervision
06-11-2009, 01:51 PM
Willi M. hung the biggest engine on the tiniest plane.

need I say more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Xiolablu3
06-11-2009, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
Willi M. hung the biggest engine on the tiniest plane.

need I say more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Yeah I have read he designed the 109 so small becasue he never thought he would have engines as powerful as the Merlin/DB601/605 available in Germany.

He was meaning to get the most out of smaller engines like the Jumo 210B by having a very light, very small plane and small wing area and therefore less drag.

Some have disputed this, but I have read it in many texts, that this is why the Bf109 turned out so small and light.

TS_Sancho
06-11-2009, 02:35 PM
P51

BillSwagger
06-11-2009, 03:30 PM
The P-47D-27 and late both do pretty well against a 109.
The primary advantage is the P-47 zoom climb performance. I just don't think a 109 has a chance if both pilots were of equal skill, and at equal advantage and energy.
I'm speaking from experience, and probably some biased, being that i fly P-47s 90% of the time and i probably have above average skill in that aircraft.

A 109 high above has a better chance at making a B and Z pass on a lower flying p-47. A good pilot would probably avoid trying to climb up there to meet him, as being caught in a climb in any plane is usually bad news.

Where did that statement come from, a book, the forum??

stalkervision
06-11-2009, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Willi M. hung the biggest engine on the tiniest plane.

need I say more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Yeah I have read he designed the 109 so small becasue he never thought he would have engines as powerful as the Merlin/DB601/605 available in Germany.

He was meaning to get the most out of smaller engines like the Jumo 210B by having a very light, very small plane and small wing area and therefore less drag.

Some have disputed this, but I have read it in many texts, that this is why the Bf109 turned out so small and light. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have it exactly correct X/B http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Freiwillige
06-11-2009, 07:32 PM
The historical and in game manouver to use against the Jug is a tight spiral climb. If you can avoid being damaged in the merge then turn into the jug and pull a tight accending climb. He will never keep his nose on you and soon you will be above the fight and in control. Jugs options are to dive away or stay and die

Col.BBQ
06-12-2009, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by DKoor:
There are several planes which are as good or better than 109 in the dive and climb game...
But practically none can live to tell the tale in sustained climb vs 109 on its tail. That thing really climbs exceptionally.

I've had several K4 pilots who fatally stalled in a vertical zoom against my P-51D. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

BillSwagger
06-12-2009, 08:25 PM
I'll say it again, the 109 is no match for the p-47s zoom climb capabilities.

The 109 has a better steady climb, but all the P-47 pilot needs to do is level out or even go into a shallow dive for speed, and he can zoom up to where the 109 is ready to fight.
Again, i say this from experience, and i've never had a 109 stall me out, or out climb me in combat. It is all owed to the zoom climb performance of the p-47.

You can try the tight spiral bit, and see where it gets you. If the P-47 has the energy, he can stay on your tail up until you stall.

Happened yesterday. =)

BillSwagger
06-12-2009, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:
The historical and in game manouver to use against the Jug is a tight spiral climb. If you can avoid being damaged in the merge then turn into the jug and pull a tight accending climb. He will never keep his nose on you and soon you will be above the fight and in control. Jugs options are to dive away or stay and die

I can't speak from a historical stand point, but in game, this might work if the p-47 is in a much lower energy state.
Otherwise the best thing to do in a 109 v a Jug, is to not fly a 109.


=))

happy flying....

stalkervision
06-12-2009, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
I'll say it again, the 109 is no match for the p-47s zoom climb capabilities.

The 109 has a better steady climb, but all the P-47 pilot needs to do is level out or even go into a shallow dive for speed, and he can zoom up to where the 109 is ready to fight.
Again, i say this from experience, and i've never had a 109 stall me out, or out climb me in combat. It is all owed to the zoom climb performance of the p-47.

You can try the tight spiral bit, and see where it gets you. If the P-47 has the energy, he can stay on your tail up until you stall.

Happened yesterday. =)

The pilots just didn't try hard enough. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

In every sim game including this one one can knock down a p-47 energy state to nill and then get away in a tight spiral climb.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


The key is to reduce the 47's or for the matter a P-51's energy state to nothing before you try it.

A bunch of nice hard turns does this quite well. Then reverse and spiral climb away.

stalkervision
06-12-2009, 08:43 PM
People really think they can out zoom climb a p-47! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

BillSwagger
06-12-2009, 09:09 PM
This idea of bleeding energy is a start, but a smarter pilot won't be so easily drawn to that tactic. The first sign a 109 is making a tight turn, the Jug will be in a zoom climb gaining a hefty altitude advantage that isn't easily regained in a 109 after its made a turn.
That is the P-47 trump card.

Only the tempest has a better zoom climb.

stalkervision
06-12-2009, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
This idea of bleeding energy is a start, but a smarter pilot won't be so easily drawn to that tactic. The first sign a 109 is making a tight turn, the Jug will be in a zoom climb gaining a hefty altitude advantage that isn't easily regained in a 109 after its made a turn.
That is the P-47 trump card.

Only the tempest has a better zoom climb.

a smart 109 driver will be able to sucker a 47 into bleeding down his energy. A 47 will have to dive to get into a zoom climb and all the 109 has to do is nail the throttle and climb away. No zoom climb ever comes out higher then the original altitude you started.

Yes if a 109 followed a 47 into a zoom climb he's be in trouble.

stalkervision
06-12-2009, 09:37 PM
Now if the 47 starts with an altitude advantage the 109 is in trouble.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TS_Sancho
06-12-2009, 09:54 PM
One of the many aicraft truths I have learned on these forums is that zoom climb performance is mainly determined by entry speed i.e. the aircraft which travelling faster will zoom higher both in the real world and in the game.

Mass, excess power and aircraft design are all secondary factors.

P47 vs. 109 at altitude is a tough one. I've certainley had each fly circles around me and vice versa. Pilot skill being equal, I'd bet on the jug. Higher dive speed, better high speed control , more bullets and superior durability to weapons damage being my reasons.

BillSwagger
06-12-2009, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
This idea of bleeding energy is a start, but a smarter pilot won't be so easily drawn to that tactic. The first sign a 109 is making a tight turn, the Jug will be in a zoom climb gaining a hefty altitude advantage that isn't easily regained in a 109 after its made a turn.
That is the P-47 trump card.

Only the tempest has a better zoom climb.

a smart 109 driver will be able to sucker a 47 into bleeding down his energy. A 47 will have to dive to get into a zoom climb and all the 109 has to do is nail the throttle and climb away. No zoom climb ever comes out higher then the original altitude you started.

Yes if a 109 followed a 47 into a zoom climb he's be in trouble. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It probably is a lot more pilot ability, and because i cant argue move for move on the forum, i will just say that all things being equal, the later jug is a better plane than the later 109s.

BillSwagger
06-12-2009, 10:57 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
One of the many aicraft truths I have learned on these forums is that zoom climb performance is mainly determined by entry speed i.e. the aircraft which travelling faster will zoom higher both in the real world and in the game.

Mass, excess power and aircraft design are all secondary factors.

[/QUOTE
agreed. Speed is a necessary element to be able to zoom in the first place, although i wouldn't discredit the aircraft design either, because apparently, it is the mass of the 47 that gives it the momentum to have such an effective zoom climb. The paddle prop only heightened this capability.
A 109 going as fast as a p-47 won't reach the same altitude nor at the same rate as a zooming p-47.
If altitude is potential energy, then the p-47 always has the upper hand provided the 109 doesn't have an overwhelming advantage from the beginning of the fight.


IRL, the jug could go into a shallow dive from 25k down to 20k, and reach 30k with ease.

Trefle
06-12-2009, 11:32 PM
Pretty much any late war western allied plane can out-E the 109 in my opinion .
Jugs , Mustangs , Lightnings , Tempests etc.. , they all seem to keep their energy better during high speed manoeuvers.
The 109 (G-10 , K4) seems better at accelerating to combat speed on the other hand and would probably outclimb most of them at co-alt and same E , perhaps not at high speed though , but i'm not sure of this

raaaid
06-13-2009, 07:36 AM
the spit 25lbs is the best single propeller climber of the game, even may be better climber than the k4

freakvollder
06-13-2009, 11:55 AM
Where did that statement come from, a book, the forum??
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com...index.php/Bf_109G-14 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/index.php/Bf_109G-14)
It comes from this source. I know it is not the game IL2, but many things on this site are always true in IL2 !! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif read “Fighting against the Bf 109G-14”


I've had several K4 pilots who fatally stalled in a vertical zoom against my P-51D.
the K4-Pilot must have had less of speed (Energy). The P-51 can zoom-climb a little better I think, but because of the pure power from the DB engine the K4 can hang on its prop and the K4 has also a better slow speed stalling characteristic! ? I don't know why that could happened http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I'll say it again, the 109 is no match for the p-47s zoom climb capabilities.

The 109 has a better steady climb, but all the P-47 pilot needs to do is level out or even go into a shallow dive for speed, and he can zoom up to where the 109 is ready to fight.
Again, i say this from experience, and i've never had a 109 stall me out, or out climb me in combat. It is all owed to the zoom climb performance of the p-47.

You can try the tight spiral bit, and see where it gets you. If the P-47 has the energy, he can stay on your tail up until you stall.

It all depends on the right tactic... I think when the 109-Pilot plays the game of the P-47-Pilot he will lose the fight!


Only the tempest has a better zoom climb.
are you sure? The P-47 is heavier than the Tempest but the Tempest has the stronger engine. They cold be at par... ??


If altitude is potential energy, then the p-47 always has the upper hand provided the 109 doesn't have an overwhelming advantage from the beginning of the fight.
a interesting standpoint! I have never thought about it before.

In my opinion the 109late has following main advantages:

- it has the best climb of all planes from low to mid altitudes, only the spit IX and the P-47-late have a little chance to follow
- it has the best acceleration of all planes, only the Tempest can match the acceleration

these advantages speaks fore close and vertical Energy Manoeuvring at medium speeds.
when the pilot use these advantages he can win a fight against any plane in the game that fights the 109s- fight. High speed manoeuvrability is not the strongest point of the 109s so the 109-Pilot should not move at very high speeds with the allied planes. In a K4 I can win against any plane IMO in the other 109s it is a little bit harder.

Salute

DKoor
06-13-2009, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by raaaid:
the spit 25lbs is the best single propeller climber of the game, even may be better climber than the k4 No it isn't but it's close... that close that K4 can't effectively use its climb vs Spitfire Mk.IX 25lbs. However on higher alts K4 will eat it, vanilla Spitfire is better high up.

BillSwagger
06-13-2009, 02:17 PM
Tempest does have a better zoom than the p-47, however it seems to even out the higher both planes go.

The empty weight of a Tempest is only about 1000lbs lighter than an empty p-47.

M_Gunz
06-13-2009, 05:00 PM
Extra weight in a plane does not make it zoom higher except for the portion where traveling faster than top speed
after the transition which doesn't last if you even get that fast, it does require the dive and not all zooms have
the dive do they?

1) during the transition from level or dive the extra weight requires more energy to change the direction.
2) during the climb the extra weight actually takes it's own inertia up raising in height -- learn about pendulums.

Start speed post-transition is in the calculations *squared* while no other factor is, weight matters not here.
Excess Thrust (Thrust - Drag) to Weight, which varies with speed given constant power, is next most important.

The faster the plane the better excess thrust it should have at high speed but try zooming the P-47 steeply from a
level 200mph compared to a 109F and see who tops out higher. Or even 250-300 mph.

freakvollder
06-14-2009, 07:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by raaaid:
the spit 25lbs is the best single propeller climber of the game, even may be better climber than the k4

No it isn't but it's close... that close that K4 can't effectively use its climb vs Spitfire Mk.IX 25lbs. However on higher alts K4 will eat it, vanilla Spitfire is better high up.

http://foto.arcor-online.net/palb/alben/50/438650/1280_6463323139646233.jpg

The to birds are very close in the climb … the 109K4 (and the other 109s also) must use it maximum engine performance to reach the maximum climb. The 109lates suffer from fast engine-overheating! ? they can use the maximum engine performance only for a relatively short time. The Spitfire IX25lbs and the other Spit IXs have a better engine cooling system and that why they can hold the maximum climb longer! So in long climb contests the Spit will win, I think.

DKoor
06-14-2009, 09:58 AM
Spitfire IX... in game or IRL?
You know in game it is impossible to ruin the Spitfire IX engine at maximum power settings running all day. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

In game... in K4 you may have some limited success in climb vs Spitfire, check the best climb speed for both fighters... but still I wouldn't advise it still.
Best course of action is to just simply run away as K4 is faster aircraft.

freakvollder
06-14-2009, 10:02 AM
in game ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BillSwagger
06-14-2009, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:


The faster the plane the better excess thrust it should have at high speed but try zooming the P-47 steeply from a
level 200mph compared to a 109F and see who tops out higher. Or even 250-300 mph.


If we are using TAS, the P-47 will zoom quite well in the 250-300 range, but it wouldn't surprise me if the 109 topped out higher at a steeper angle from that speed.


The borderline for a zoom in the P-47, in game, is 250mph or about 400kph. Optimum zooms will occur above 350mph or about 560kph. The energy (altitude) gain is exponential the faster you are entering the climb. So a climb at 700kph, is capable of yielding over 2 and half times the benefit of trying to zoom climb at 400kph. Of course if you climb steeper than necessary then you will lose momentum faster and that benefit will decrease.

More often than not, its a great way to create separation from an enemy who is trailing your six. If the pilot continues to follow he will have set him self up for a "rope a dope" maneuver. On the topic of 109s, this is something i see more frequently, because i think the pilot associates the 109s superior climb rate, not realizing the zoom climb potential of the 47.

IRL, the 109s climb rate was more beneficial. The gas guzzling performance of the p-47 could not be relied on to get to altitude as quickly as it does in game, but its zoom climb performance did come into play in combat.


Interesting fact : the P-47 made up over half of the US fighter force up until April of 1944.