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jayhall0315
06-16-2008, 06:46 AM
Once in a while, I happen to be in a dogfight were I see a particular tactic used over and over again against me and I need to know what I am missing. Here is how it goes: I approach a very good flyer head on and we both dive some to pick up speed and pass each other without firing at the nadir of the dive and then both climb very high and in many cases begin to roll over so that we are now facing each other inverted at a much higher height or we complete our Immelmans and now face each other without being inverted. We then pass each other again, usually without firing and then both begin to climb again but we are now very close to stall speed (roughly around 160 kph). When it is a really good opponent, they always seem to outclimb me (I am usually in La-7 or Spit) by just a little bit. Its as if they are somehow getting just a little more lift under their wings. After a few seconds, I usually stall out and flip over or lose control and they continue another 100-400 meters higher and then roll over on me and shart shooting. Then I try to dive away from them but I often get disabled.

How are they able to float higher? and get more lift than me? Is it flaps, or lowering prop pitch or pushing the mixture down or what ?

Any ideas from those who really know how to dogfight ?

Jay

DKoor
06-16-2008, 07:04 AM
You provided quite a little input for some conclusive answers in spite of picturing it quite good. Aircraft that your opponent is flying plays part, because if it's a different type chance is the RoC, stall behaviour and overall low speed behaviour (some like to say ability to "hover", "hang on prop" etc. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) plays a big part in such setup.
Another thing is if he trims his aircraft, he can practically tailslide it, squeezing every bit of performance from it. It is doable without trimming of course, but for absolutely best efficiency (least amount of energy spent) it's best to trim in certain situations.
Amount of fuel (+armament) also plays part.

Best thing would be to post your track and that way it is easy to say what went wrong.

Some general things...

In close dogfight, vertical zoom, who stalls first is usually the screwed one. Especially so if you see that you probably can't catch him but you still follow hoping that you can point your guns on E/A.

Trouble is if you miss, and chance for that is great since at lower speed aircraft nose likes to wonder around no matter what we do, next thing you are in stall or trying to recover while E/A already picks up speed and closes on you.
It all happens in a matter of few seconds, and the zoom basically transforms into hammerhead.

K_Freddie
06-16-2008, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
..we both dive some to pick up speed and pass each other without firing at the nadir of the dive
Hmmm mistake #1... you let him have it right from the start.


Originally posted by jayhall0315:
We then pass each other again, usually without firing
Mistake #2.. your mission is to get him in your sights as soon as possible... who cares about the fancy flying.


Originally posted by jayhall0315:
I usually stall out and flip over or lose control and they continue another 100-400 meters higher and then roll over on me and shart shooting. Then I try to dive away from them but I often get disabled.

You must turn out before you stall, and head for the dirt. Get your speed up to normal then level out, and then head away from him... He'll follow and his speed will eventually be about the same - at this point you start again.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Xiolablu3
06-16-2008, 08:32 AM
Actually I disagree with point one Freddie.

I usually try and avoid the head on as its just too random. 50/50 odds are not good enough for me.

How much fuel are you taking Jayhall?

Perhaps they are just a little better at managing energy than you? Pulling the aircraft hard around the sky is a sure fire way to lose all your energy. Maybe the otehr guy is just being a little more careful in his turns.

ImMoreBetter
06-16-2008, 09:47 AM
Some of the different way this could have happened:

-He could have been faster at the initial pass.
-He had better acceleration on the second pass.
-He could have just beat you in E conservation in the manuevering.
-He has beat you in low speed aircraft handling.
-He had a better aircraft/loadout.
-He had the edge in using trim and/or flaps.

It may also be combinations of these things.

steiner562
06-16-2008, 09:51 AM
-He had the edge in using trim and/or flaps.
Was gonna mention that to be honest,full flaps will give you a few more precious seconds before you flop and triming is overlooked by a lot of people.

jayhall0315
06-16-2008, 10:05 AM
Okay so assuming we have exact same aircraft and fuel/loadout, what is the best way to climb steep. Full flaps down, prop pitch down to 85% and trim elevator full up ? Is this the proper procedure to get every last inch of altitude ?

Xiolablu3
06-16-2008, 10:12 AM
I think it depends which plane mate.

Just one note, I pride myself as being quite successful online, I often find myself with the highest score on the server in a short time. (This is to demonstrate a point, not boast, there are many others better than me) However I NEVER use prop pitch, even tho my most flown planes are the Fw190A4/A6 and Bf109F4 which are apparantly some of the planes that benefit the most from it?


Try to calm your turns, the more you yank the stick, the more you bleed off speed and energy.

Are you 100% sure that the other guy didnt have more Speed/Energy than you at the first merge?

steiner562
06-16-2008, 10:25 AM
I'd only use full flaps just before your about to flop,otherwise your just gonna bleed your enrgy faster,with the trim its always small inputs or you'll just burn needless energy whether your pulling back on the stick or using the trim interface IMO anyway.

ImMoreBetter
06-16-2008, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Okay so assuming we have exact same aircraft and fuel/loadout, what is the best way to climb steep. Full flaps down, prop pitch down to 85% and trim elevator full up ? Is this the proper procedure to get every last inch of altitude ?

Prop pitch should be at 100% or auto.

Trim is used to streamline your plane. To allow you to fly level without touching the stick. If your plane can do this, it is at it's peak efficiency.

Flaps should only be dropped just before the stall. It just bleeds all your speed away to have them down during the entire climb.

Also, make the turn gently and consistent.

X32Wright
06-16-2008, 10:58 AM
I've told you time and again that flying the la7 is a liability Jay. But you won't listen to me. Also you still fly at servers with WWV/open pits. The really good veterans tends to avoid servers like that.

Lastly why are you expecting the Lavochkins or Spits to have good vertical abilities? The german planes excels at that kind of fighting in the game and for you to match it u need a lot of excess energy to the la/spit just to be able to match it.

It is a lot easier to squeeze some more alt out of german planes when doing verticals than any other planes in the game speically if your good with your control surfaces.

dieg777
06-16-2008, 11:30 AM
most folk will be faster than you think so will have more E than you realise.

download and watch the energy game track from this site and you will see some great tips on conserving E

http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/tracks.htm (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/%7Echapman/il2guide/tracks.htm)


I dont fly the russian planes a lot but when I fly the spitfire I rarely go pure vertical as you have no E at the top and are a sitting duck for anyone coming into the fight. Where the spit excells is in climbing co-ordinated turns , so use this technique to cut off the bandit. he might zoom higher but by climbing and conserving E you will be able to manouver and avoid him when he comes over the top.



other good site for info is simhq

read the articles by andy bush

http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html

and shoot to kill here

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_037a.html

and of course theres fighter combat tactics and manouvering by robert shaw which is the refrence work.

Xiolablu3
06-16-2008, 03:20 PM
IMHO the Bf109F4 *****es all over the SPit Vb/Vc(2) and Vc(4) in the vertical fight.

I'm not sure about the 1942/1943 LF boost Spit V's. Dont think I have flown extensively versus these two in a Bf109F4.

Spits and La's are great for learning, but you should try and make the jump too the early 109's, the Tempest or the late Fw's one day soon, you will reap the rewards.

People dont fly these planes to show off, they fly them becasue they really are superior to the TnB planes once you are a good enough pilot.

Like Wright said, the sooner you start flying them the better. It might be painful at first but it wont take long until you are a convert.

VW-IceFire
06-16-2008, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Okay so assuming we have exact same aircraft and fuel/loadout, what is the best way to climb steep. Full flaps down, prop pitch down to 85% and trim elevator full up ? Is this the proper procedure to get every last inch of altitude ?
Nope...that would be the key to getting the worst possible climb out of the plane.

Flaps down means more drag so you negate most of your momentum/speed advantage instantly.

Prop pitch at 85% on a plane like a La7 or Spitfire means you're running at less than maximum RPM which again means you're negating advantage. This is somewhat tempered by potentially less drag on the prop but when climbing its pointless. Diving it makes a little more sense.

Trimming elevator does help...to a certain degree. Keep it balanced...slightly nose high with some joystick input to keep the nose a bit higher.

The best climb is relative to the situation. Best sustained climb or best zoom climb? The best zoom climb is basically doing everything to prevent you from bleeding any added speed. Radiator closed, engine to maximum, minimum number of maneuvers, etc. Resist temtation and focus on altitude rather than angle. A really awesome nose pointed towards the sky zoom climb really just means you're burning off all your energy at once while a less steep angle will let your wings keep some of their lift.

A sustained climb is one that you can do for several minutes. This is basically just finding the maximum speed for angle. So you want to find the speed of the plane you're flying where it sustains your speed while keeping the climb rate high. So keep your eye on the climb indicator and on your speed in this case. You can usually feel it out if you don't have the exact best climb speed numbers infront of you.

Trim can be a huge help but don't over do it. Use trim to keep the ball mostly centered (on your slip indicator) and to prevent you from being excessive on the joystick trying to keep the nose high.

Remember that any motion you make on the stick means speed/energy lost while in a climb. Make the minimum number of movements with the maximum effect. In combat thats easier said than done because everyone wants to do everything 5 seconds ago...but resist...be disciplined.

I also have to disagree with K_Freddie. Thats bad advice I think. Yes you can let your opponent have it right at the start but head on attacks are almost always disastrous so you were doing the right thing in opting to gain optimal position. If you can't avoid a direct head on...then yeah return fire...but never go for it. Always angle away and think two or three moves ahead...climbing and gaining position.

What your flying in a scenario like this is huge. If its a FW190A...I might opt to just dive away or fly straight and gain speed. A pass like that usually ends up in the other fighters favour if they can turn quicker than the FW190. If its a FW190D-9 I may turn...unless its a Spit or La-7. If its a Tempest or Mustang I'll definitely go for a zoom climb.

Tully__
06-16-2008, 03:40 PM
what is the best way to climb steep.
No flaps. If you're nearly vertical, the lift vector is pointed mostly towards the horizon anyway. You want as much thrust as you can get (full throttle, maximum RPM (prop "pitch")) and as little drag as you can manage (smooth easy control inputs, no flaps, gear up, cockpit closed, radiator/cowl closed etc)

Flaps will only help once your climb angle is close enough to level that you can maintain speed while flaps are deployed and you're already too slow for best climb speed. At steeper angles or higher speeds than that the added drag causes more problems than the added lift helps.

X32Wright
06-16-2008, 04:52 PM
I think you are trying to learn things quickly without very good foundations Jay. You have to be very good with energy management and eventually Energy-fighting (e-fight) before you can even try to copy what is being done by expert flyers.

An expert flyer can gauge 'RELATIVE ENERGY' situations based on how fast ur plane is moving or away from his/her plane. An expert flyer can gauge ur speed easily on matter what angle it is from him even without icons since its all based on Silhouette/plane profile reading!

It is all about relative energy reading and if u would just emulate the experts without knowing what is being done and when then thats just like doing karaoke covers of songs.

jayhall0315
06-16-2008, 10:10 PM
Okay, well I use the scientific method in my professional job all the time so I decided to conduct some tests, and while I have not had a great deal of time today, here is what I have found:

La-7 pull straight up from 510 kph with radiator at Open gives you about ~300 meters less height in the climb than with the radiator at 2. I usually have my radiator at 4 and just leave it at that all the time, but this may be a little bit of the problem.

More in a little bit, once I do some more tests.

And yes you can laugh, because I fly the 'newbie' plane but I will tell you the one thing that the La-7 (or the I-185) gives me that few others can match; break away speed. The La-7 is so fast that I can disengage from most targets when I choose to and not when THEY choose to. Everyone knows I aint that great, but then unless I am facing a real master (like Bengal Tiger or the like) it is very hard for someone to kill me either.

The situation that I described at the beginning of this post is also only applicable to about five guys that I have faced on several occasions (=AFJ_Maverick would be one, but Bengal would not) who seem to 'float' their plane at very slow speed and still maintain good control especially at very high climb rates.

More results soon,
Jay

Xiolablu3
06-16-2008, 11:24 PM
Mate, noone is laughing at you. If you think that then you have misunderstood the posts/replies. Read them again.


We are simply urging you to try other types so that you can learn the benefits of them.

I would wager 90% of the Veterans here find the low break up speed of the La5/La7 a real hindrance. I know I do.

Also most who fly on realistic/historical servers avoid dogfighting, its just too dangerous. You want to be attacking and getting out quick before the enemy can even have a chance of a shot at you.

This is why you need to learn about energy fighting/energy management. However flying the La7/Spitfire its going to take longer to learn becasue you will just fall back into the habit of dogfighting your way out. Nothing wrong with that, but its just ONE option, and probably the most dangerous one at that.

To make an analogy, if air forces didnt use energy tactics, very fast turning biplanes would still rule the skies.


Try a few QMB's with you in a Bf109F4 vs 3-4 1939 i16's or i153's. This should be VERY easy if you use energy tactics, but will be extremely hard if you try TnB. Once you can shoot down all 3 easily, you will most likely have learned about energy fighting.

Erkki_M
06-17-2008, 12:37 AM
Jay, I hope you're online today at about 11am-14pm your time... I'll grap a few guys and you in voice comms and we'll go fly on a real server, no skies of fire or aaa. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DKoor
06-17-2008, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
The La-7 is so fast that I can disengage from most targets when I choose to and not when THEY choose to.

Quite on the contrary... while LA-7 is fast and good fighter, in many cases you can't disengage.

Bf-109G6AS - LA-7 being outclassed in both speed and climb from 2,500m - 5,500m
Bf-109G10/14 - LA-7 outclasses these regarding speed, they have very little advantage
Bf-109K - from 2,500m LA-7 is being dominated by Kurfurst heavily regarding speed & climb, however 109K has really bad handling at high speed
FW-190A8 - inferior to LA-7 in terms of speed, however still has vastly better dive capability
FW-190A9 - LA-7 being better low but FW has edge from 3,500m - 5,500m, + FW vastly better in dive
FW-190D - LA-7 totally outclassed in every respect, except WW1 style of fight
J2M5 - from 3,000m onwards it has speed edge over LA-7
Ki-84 - from 3,500m has speed edge over LA-7
P-47D27_LATE - outclasses LA-7 from 3,000m onwards
Mustang Mk.III - almost same difference as between Ki-27 and Me-262; LA-7 being outclassed vs this magnificent fighter is a total understatement
P-51D - LA-7 being outclassed on nearly any alt except few hundred meters around 6,000m alt
Tempest V - LA-7 being outclassed totally regarding speed
Yak-9U - outclasses LA-7 from 3,000m onwards

Since most Lavochkin type 7's are flown on open cockpit servers, they are facing these types... due to cannon popularity (and effectiveness) smart flown FW's (and some other types) usually totally dominate them.

jayhall0315
06-17-2008, 03:01 AM
Wow, that is quite a rundown there Dkoor. I will definitely have to try out some of this as I get more free time. You must either be one of the core coders for the game or be an encyclopedia of IL2 airframe knowledge http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thanks alot,
Jay

dieg777
06-17-2008, 07:12 AM
il2compaire gives this type of data

http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=329

and helps you understand the relative strengths of aircraft


hope this helps

jayhall0315
06-17-2008, 11:55 AM
Hello Dieg - Does it mess up your IL2 4.08 game if you run the executable file? I have IL2 installed nice and working properly and I dont want helper programs fooling with it. If this is separate program then its cool but if it messes with IL2, then I will just wait.

Thanks,
Jay

ImMoreBetter
06-17-2008, 12:01 PM
Il2 compare is a completely separate program.

TinyTim
06-17-2008, 12:44 PM
IL2 compare is, like ImMoreBetter said, completely separated from the game and does not in any shape way or form interfere with it. However, Il2 is an extremely powerful tool that helps you understand relative strengths and weaknesses performance-wise between different aircraft in the sim.

X32Wright
06-17-2008, 02:53 PM
Didn't Oleg say:

'IL-2 Compare isn't gospel'?

also the person who made it said it is a 'prediction of values' and not tha actual data? This is because the data is derived/predicted from AI flying the game?

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=39318

Originally posted by ROSS_Youss:
speed - accurate 100%.
turntime - accurate 99% at speed >250km/h. AI dont want turns at slow speed.
climb - accurate 99% at speed>250 km/h. AI dont want to climb at slow speed.

DKoor
06-17-2008, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
Originally posted by ROSS_Youss:
speed - accurate 100%. Don't know for which version this holds true, however, in game I get better values for nearly all aircraft and conditions I tested, and I tested around 110 of them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
Single examples which match IL2 Compare so far were FW-190A9 at alt, FW-190A4 @ deck & Spitfire Mk.IX @ deck http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif.

Excerpt;
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
TYPE ALT (m) SPEED v4.08 LOADOUT IL-2 C v4.07 4.08-IL2C4.07 (kph) 4.08 dev. (%)
MC.205-III SL 542 default 531 11 2,071563089
MC.205-III* 7300 667 default 659 8 1,213960546
Mosquito SL 559 default 544 15 2,757352941
Mosquito* 4300 609 default 602 7 1,162790698
N1K2-Ja SL 564 default 551 13 2,359346642
N1K2-Ja* 5200 603 default 595 8 1,344537815
P-38LL SL 597 default 583 14 2,401372213
P-38LL* 7400 703 default 691 12 1,736613603
P-40M SL 484 default 473 11 2,325581395
P-40M* 6100 583 default 577 6 1,039861352
P-47D22 SL 550 default 538 12 2,230483271
P-47D22* 9000 703 default 693 10 1,443001443
</pre>

3rd column is actual max level speed in V4.08, 5th column is max speed listed in IL2 Compare.
Also note the difference in % from listed speed in IL2 Compare. Not all fighters get the same relative deviation.
Also note that the figures I get for current game version are all within under 3kph deviation, I think most of them are spot on really.
Under IL2 'lab' conditions of course, Crimea 12 o clock, fuel 100%, under 'realistic' conditions...

SeaFireLIV
06-18-2008, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jayhall0315:
The La-7 is so fast that I can disengage from most targets when I choose to and not when THEY choose to.

Quite on the contrary... while LA-7 is fast and good fighter, in many cases you can't disengage.

Bf-109G6AS - LA-7 being outclassed in both speed and climb from 2,500m - 5,500m
Bf-109G10/14 - LA-7 outclasses these regarding speed, they have very little advantage
Bf-109K - from 2,500m LA-7 is being dominated by Kurfurst heavily regarding speed & climb, however 109K has really bad handling at high speed
FW-190A8 - inferior to LA-7 in terms of speed, however still has vastly better dive capability
FW-190A9 - LA-7 being better low but FW has edge from 3,500m - 5,500m, + FW vastly better in dive
FW-190D - LA-7 totally outclassed in every respect, except WW1 style of fight
J2M5 - from 3,000m onwards it has speed edge over LA-7
Ki-84 - from 3,500m has speed edge over LA-7
P-47D27_LATE - outclasses LA-7 from 3,000m onwards
Mustang Mk.III - almost same difference as between Ki-27 and Me-262; LA-7 being outclassed vs this magnificent fighter is a total understatement
P-51D - LA-7 being outclassed on nearly any alt except few hundred meters around 6,000m alt
Tempest V - LA-7 being outclassed totally regarding speed
Yak-9U - outclasses LA-7 from 3,000m onwards

Since most Lavochkin type 7's are flown on open cockpit servers, they are facing these types... due to cannon popularity (and effectiveness) smart flown FW's (and some other types) usually totally dominate them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is quite a run down. Guess that blows the `Oleg bias` routine. It also shows how once some people get the `my plane can`t win` bit between their teeth, it takes a lot to convince them that they just need to learn their aircraft. Easier to blame something else.

X32Wright
06-19-2008, 02:47 AM
When I was being trained in the La7 by my old squad (La7_S.Mat and La7_Baalberith) in the La7 I used t think it was UBER but after learning the 109s and FW's it is a lot easier to kill than say a Spit25lb.

The La7 has a lot more limitations than the late spits! Blackouts,not good at high alt,limited ammo etc. You can only disengage at will if the planes you are fighting are slower and lack initial energy, if not even a Zero can get an la7 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

neural_dream
06-19-2008, 04:20 AM
Jay, you obviously haven't read my guide http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Hit my sig for this.
At least half of the forumers here know these things. They don't have to be designers to know at what altitude to engage what aircraft.

DKoor
06-19-2008, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
When I was being trained in the La7 by my old squad (La7_S.Mat and La7_Baalberith) in the La7 I used t think it was UBER but after learning the 109s and FW's it is a lot easier to kill than say a Spit25lb. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif 110% http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .