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MadRuski
06-20-2006, 04:08 AM
was stalling a plane ever good to get away from a chaser...i sometimes find that wen iam bieng chasen, i twist my stick hard, stall...and manage to surprise the attacker and he looses chase because he rushes out in front of me...when iam lucky i can get a great recovery and manage to chase him, its great wen this happens online...ppl ask me how i do that and sometimes call me one of the best pilots they have seen (wen iam definatly not LOL)...was stalling ever a tactic in WW2?

MadRuski
06-20-2006, 04:08 AM
was stalling a plane ever good to get away from a chaser...i sometimes find that wen iam bieng chasen, i twist my stick hard, stall...and manage to surprise the attacker and he looses chase because he rushes out in front of me...when iam lucky i can get a great recovery and manage to chase him, its great wen this happens online...ppl ask me how i do that and sometimes call me one of the best pilots they have seen (wen iam definatly not LOL)...was stalling ever a tactic in WW2?

CrazySchmidt
06-20-2006, 04:35 AM
Yep, going into speed reducing manoeuvres is something I do all the time when I have some smart *** 109 or 190 on my six that just won't let go. (I try not to stall though if I can help it).

The jokes on them when they are taking the hits while trying to speed off!! Then it's wait until the bleeding has all but finished then make the final decisive pass.

Patience, altitude advantage and plenty of speed will usually see you on the right side of the conflict. If you're in the schit from the six then let the idiots over run you.

CS. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

RCAF_Irish_403
06-20-2006, 04:48 AM
i suppose it all depends on what AC the chaser is in....i wouldn't want to try that against a zeke or a hurri http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
06-20-2006, 04:59 AM
in game, if you are in a spin, you are mostly a easy to hit target.

Intruder_GP
06-20-2006, 05:02 AM
I guess you havent faced the best pilots as yet!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

MadRuski
06-20-2006, 05:06 AM
LOL like i said...iam absolutly Sh*t wen it comes to playing online, but it works sometimes

Blutarski2004
06-20-2006, 05:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MadRuski:
was stalling a plane ever good to get away from a chaser...i sometimes find that wen iam bieng chasen, i twist my stick hard, stall...and manage to surprise the attacker and he looses chase because he rushes out in front of me...when iam lucky i can get a great recovery and manage to chase him, its great wen this happens online...ppl ask me how i do that and sometimes call me one of the best pilots they have seen (wen iam definatly not LOL)...was stalling ever a tactic in WW2? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Don't ask me to cite references, because it was a long time ago, but I have read accounts of FW190 pilots purposely using the violent snap stall behavior of the FW190A series to disengage from a turning fight.

Also read an account of a pilot purposely stalling out his MiG-15, spinning down, then recovering, several times in succession during a Korean dog-fight.

rnzoli
06-20-2006, 05:16 AM
IIRC snap stall was an evasive manouver for last-resort moments IRL too. However, if you don't have any friends around, and the pilot chasing you is patient, you're doomed certainly. Stalling aircraft are slow and easy targets for a patient opponent, especially that stalling pilots often lose their orientation after stalls. Moreover you cannot recover the lost speed/altitude fast enough, and the chasing pilot will pull up in time to avoid being in your gun range at all, only to come back from above and kill you with a well-placed cannon hit in the cockpit.

I personally like the sight of a stalling aircraft in front of me, I smell almost certain victory within 5 minutes. My immediate reaction is to check around and see if he is alone. If so, I can play with the low-speed aircraft like a cat plays with a captured mouse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

edit: don't try the stalling escape in any P-39 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

x6BL_Brando
06-20-2006, 05:59 AM
If your pursuer has a good wingman then you're toast! It also depends on the pursuer's skill at taking advantage of his opponent's mistake...

If I'm pursuing (which happens occasionally) and the fugitive one stalls in front of me, I'll take a snap shot as I pass - but only if it presents itself on my exit path . If it's possible that path is upwards! One thing is sure - a stalled plane is not going to start climbing again for a while.

I know plane qualities differ, so it's a bit of a generalisation, but breaking off immediately - under full control is very preferable to doing flap-drop braking to keep a stalled opponent in the reticle. If he's fooling I'm stuffed - If he's lost control I want to be at a distance to read his next move (and scan the sky for his buddies - and scan instruments to be sure of my situation energy-wise)
E is life as is SA. All the calculations involved in getting the drop on a staller puts me into a target-fixation mode - and that's when things can go badly pear-shaped. I'll be having to get near my own stall-speed to carry through an attack probably - so I'll break instead, scan the sky and do a stall-turn (under my control) and come back on him while he's still getting his bearings. If it's feasible....

If not...well, I'm holding the alt advantage and not him!

The best evasive manouevre from a stall, imo, is a split-ess applied correctly. It's an E-gainer when you really need it. Whether you choose to go towards or away from your opponent depends on the situation. Online I look for a handy cloud!

A pronounced barrel roll works well for the slow down/ possible overshoot scenario - stalls are just too unpredictable.

B.

WWSensei
06-20-2006, 06:02 AM
A snap roll as a defensive maneuver is a valid tactic. Unlike other "normal" stalls it is possible to snap roll and lose very little speed or energy so you aren't left like a sitting duck necessarily.

I had a student pilot once that as she was coming in for a landing in a 172 she didn't realize she was slowly turning the yoke as well. She sensed the wong dip but thought she was slipping rather than actually moving the control. She attmepted to correct by applying opposite rudder. Speed was about 75-80 knots.

In an instant we snapped rolled completely inverted. All this happened at about 500 feet (~120 meters) and we lost no altitude. She freaked but I had the controls by then and powered up and out. We didn't really lose any speed (dropped to about 65 knots) or altitude (maybe 3 or 4 m).

I could snap roll a Tweet and not lose much of either as well. the beuty of a snap roll is that it is a fast departure to normal flight but it is also a quick recovery IF you are expecting and don't do something to make it worse.

x6BL_Brando
06-20-2006, 06:03 AM
@ Sensei - http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif - well done m8! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

The-Pizza-Man
06-20-2006, 06:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MadRuski:
was stalling a plane ever good to get away from a chaser...i sometimes find that wen iam bieng chasen, i twist my stick hard, stall...and manage to surprise the attacker and he looses chase because he rushes out in front of me...when iam lucky i can get a great recovery and manage to chase him, its great wen this happens online...ppl ask me how i do that and sometimes call me one of the best pilots they have seen (wen iam definatly not LOL)...was stalling ever a tactic in WW2? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Don't ask me to cite references, because it was a long time ago, but I have read accounts of FW190 pilots purposely using the violent snap stall behavior of the FW190A series to disengage from a turning fight.

Also read an account of a pilot purposely stalling out his MiG-15, spinning down, then recovering, several times in succession during a Korean dog-fight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've heard similar stories about Mustangs with partially full fuselage tanks. I'd imagine a short spin in the opposite direction of the turn followed by a quick recovery and spiral dive would have been a pretty good way of disengaging IRL as the pursuer probably wouldn't press home the attack unlike in game.

F19_Ob
06-20-2006, 06:15 AM
Planes that have forgiving stalling characteristics and good accelleration could absolutely use it if they wanted to risk it.

In real single-engined planes there was more torque than we have though and in those slow speeds one could be thrown out of the turn by the engines forces. Many in the sim often slam the throttle on full power at stallspeed wich could be a leathal thing at low altitude.
We have a marginal torque-effect but it's better than nothing.

I suggest the 109 G2 as Learning plane, since most other planes are more difficult to handle over all, whereas the 109 have few vices. if it goes wrong chanses are good that u may escape with your superior speed and accelleration.

Online stalling is used all the time as an offensive tactic, especially by the 109's wich are well suited for this.
In real life however it was dangerous to loose speed (in any plane) since an enemy with better energy could appear from the blue. In the real world pilots wouldn't risk ones life as easily as we do in the game.

The 109 G2 in the sim is perhaps the best stallfighter and it can by using vertical turns at stallspeed even outturn as nible fighters as the I-16 wich can't go vertical at all whithout flipping on its back in those low speeds, while the 109 may point its nose up 60 degrees and climb hanging on its prop.

The 109 experts usually climb straight up when they know the enemy behind is inferior, and then dive down when the opponents energy is gone. often no deflection is needed either because the opponent have no speed.

The classic tactic for the 109 though is diving attacks on opponents with less energy and then climb up to safety again, and as soon as engaged or chased they flew away, dragging the pursuing attacker and let a gaggle of friendlies deal with the enemy. This was quite riskfree compared to most other tactics and often kills were scored.

MadRuski
06-20-2006, 07:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
A snap roll as a defensive maneuver is a valid tactic </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes...i was meaning a snap stall...i just invert and get back on track with the pilot behind not expecting it, ofcourse i dont get it perfect, but i tweak my rudder alot wen i try it

Xiolablu3
06-20-2006, 07:59 AM
I think most would suggest that this was only to use as a very last resort and to try and avoid it. If I am thinking correctly about what you are doing there is a big chance of him colliding with you or getting a shot in before he overshoots.

What plane are you in and what is he in? Maybe we can suggest some different tactic to use before you resort to this.

Blutarski2004
06-20-2006, 08:05 AM
It's worth keeping in mind that a stall does not always imply slow speed. A plane could stall out at 300 mph under high G turn conditions. I think that this was what the FW190 pilots were doing. A high G stall in a FW190 would be sudden and violent, presumably surprising the pursuer. The FW190 pilot could then recover and convert into a split-S or steep escape dive before the pursuer could regain position.

At least that's my take on it.

LEBillfish
06-20-2006, 08:36 AM
Though I'm no pilot r/l and here in the sim they just let me clean out the latrines.....I'm going to post what I have "read"....and naturally my interpretation of that may have skewed the original meaning so take the following with a grain of salt.

In a perfect world flight should be smooth and absolutely in control, perhaps so much so that one should be able to let go of the controls and the plane being so stable fly's along fine for some time........Fighters inparticularly as far as design have always been a challenge to find a perfect balance between the pilot able to control it (stability as mentioned above), yet pressing the absolute limits of instability, as though riding on the edge of loss of control as it is there that maneuverability starts to improve.

Balance points, torque, on and on all play a part in how stable, yet how maneuverable an aircraft is....To gain more of one you trade off on the other......The lack of stability to a degree that certain planes were even rookie killers can be seen back to even the days of the Sopwith Camel....Deadly to those that did not pay heed to its flight characteristics, a sure stall and crash it often unrecoverable a quick destiny to come. Yet for those who would learn to avoid them, yet more so, learn to USE them, made the plane one that was a true threat to your enemy.

We often say "boom and zoom" or "turn & burn"....Neither of those terms in my mind saying much about the topic at hand, simply speaking of how hard could one dive and stable a platform was it or how well could a plane "carve" through turns......Good examples of each might be P47's, IL2's, vs. Ki-43's, Zero's and such........All planes falling somewhere in the mix, each having to trade off something for their particular advantage.

Now, though from reading I can state Ki-43's were well known to be able to kick their tails hard to the side and split S at the same time, instantly moving from dead 12 of their opponent to dead 6....They to me speak more of a very, very maneuverable plane yet still in tremendous control, so though obviously unstable to be able to do such things, it never quite easily reaching that absolute loss of control that would do you in.

A Bf109 perhaps more a Z&B type, yet clearly flown to its limits by its pilots as it was often noted they would be turning with the leading edge slats extended...So pressing the limits for how it was designed once more....

However in my mind, the best example would be a FW190.......It so maneuverable in contrast to the belief it was a pure Z&B'er because of the inherent instability "deliberately" built into it......That instability can be seen in its lightning quick roll, or ability to snap its tail in any direction....Yet more so having the "power" to pull quickly overcome that loss of control much like one might use a front wheel drive car on a slick road, actually accelerating instead of breaking to straighten it out.

Sure it can turn, and dive, and roll but what it seems to excel in more then most others is it's ability to slam itself into some odd orientation, the control surfaces losing their grip, the plane essentially out of control yet its ability to regain that control quickly "powering out of the stall" if you will.

Now stalling as a tactic makes sense......Yet ONLY if you can quickly regain control, hence it all deliberate, so in truth though having no control for a brief second it is simply a step in an entire maneuver.

Stalling and falling unable to "quickly regain" control though possibly working to throw off an attacker does nothing to put you on the offensive, and you're in fact not even on the defensive...You're simply helpless.....However, if it is controlled in the fact that it sets you up into a position to attack, or even gets you to the next step of getting there....The results planned, then yes, I believe stalling is a very viable tactic yet you must know your plane well each one having different limits.

For myself, in a simulation, This is something I use religiously.....In the old sim RB3d I was often called a "hack" being able to turn fight Dr1's with my SpadXIII.....In truth I would simply ride the razors edge of a stall, letting the tail whip around and roll to compensate it all also slowing me without decreasing power to stay on the tail of a much better turning plane.

The best example of that here for me either the FW190, yet the sim hesitant in allowing a quick ramp up of speed.....SO the Ki-61 where I can do my best work like that.

Yet learning to make any plane here a combination of a B&Z, T&B, & using the stall in a controlled manner, NOT just flying it as prescribed....IMLTHO is what really will set you apart more then anything.

It's nice to see a master of say the B&Z, yet when they can do all 3, they become a serious threat as then there is almost no way to beat them except to fly the same.....As they can fly like your plane does, yet also like theirs.

Just my opinion.....

SeaFireLIV
06-20-2006, 08:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
IIRC snap stall was an evasive manouver for last-resort moments IRL too. However, if you don't have any friends around, and the pilot chasing you is patient, you're doomed certainly. Stalling aircraft are slow and easy targets for a patient opponent, especially that stalling pilots often lose their orientation after stalls. Moreover you cannot recover the lost speed/altitude fast enough, and the chasing pilot will pull up in time to avoid being in your gun range at all, only to come back from above and kill you with a well-placed cannon hit in the cockpit.

I personally like the sight of a stalling aircraft in front of me, I smell almost certain victory within 5 minutes. My immediate reaction is to check around and see if he is alone. If so, I can play with the low-speed aircraft like a cat plays with a captured mouse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

edit: don't try the stalling escape in any P-39 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


AGREED here. That stalling technique should really be described as "I don`t know what to do, I`m going to dieeee! Must waggle joystick in mad way! Don`t PANIC!" Technique.

Against, new to avrage skilled player-pilots it might work. Against patient, skilled pilots you`ve just lost the battle. You`ve lost altitude (bad), you`re out of control (bad) and your attacker can just wait on you (bad), or shoot you anyway as you flail meaninglessly down (bad).

MadRuski
06-20-2006, 08:59 AM
ive noticed that the FW's have a tendencie to stall alot..while wen i flew a YAK. i managed to turn and climb without stalling.

p1ngu666
06-20-2006, 09:31 AM
its different now..

BOA_Allmenroder
06-20-2006, 12:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MadRuski:
was stalling a plane ever good to get away from a chaser...i sometimes find that wen iam bieng chasen, i twist my stick hard, stall...? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes...it's called a Snap Roll. And by what you describe, you're doing one.

Full rudder, opposite aft stick full deflection and viola...SNAP Roll.

Example, full left (or right) rudder; full right and aft(or left and aft stick).

DIRTY-MAC
06-20-2006, 12:53 PM
the FW190 does this very good nad if you are a good pilot you can straighten it out fast and by then you have your pursuer nicely in front of you, in a good firing position, but t5his isnt something yo7u should do much as you loose important E, and we all know the FW190 isnt exactly the accelerator king

actionhank1786
06-20-2006, 02:07 PM
Everyone knows you just put up the brakes on the F-14 and pull hard on the stick, letting the enemy fly under you, and then bam!
Winner!
...
wait...
this isn't the top gun forum is it?

leitmotiv
06-20-2006, 03:20 PM
Many of the WWII memoirs have incidents where a pilot resorts to a desperation maneuver like chopping throttle, yanking back on the stick, and chain-sawing the bistid as he breezes by. If the wingman doesn't hammer you while you are hanging in mid-air, it's an alternative to being chopped up by a superior plane or pilot. I can pull this on the AI successfully sometimes. In most cases better to imitate a fish flapping all over the place on a beach. There is nothing like a confusion stall followed by a spin to throw your opponent off, but this is completely spontaneous. You'll see him pass by gnashing his teeth as you take corrective measures.