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Doolittle81
09-15-2006, 05:59 PM
Might be, probably is, a repeat...but here's the info anyway:

History Channel...
Tonight...
USA Pacific Time: 8:00 PM

Dogfights: The Greatest Air Battles

"Computer graphics and animation recreate four famous airbattles"

Esel1964
09-15-2006, 06:29 PM
Watching it now-it's cool. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Sergio_101
09-15-2006, 06:57 PM
Hope Oleg saw it!

The 4 Bf-109 vs 3 P-51 dogfight was a real eye opener.
Those P-51Bs out turned the Bf-109s in a sustained turn
and out climbed them.

Also, Col Bud Anderson got into a one on one
with an obvious "experten".
Equally obvious, Bud is an American experten.

Bud out climbed, out maneuvered and out turned the 109.

Bud Anderson got two confirmed 109 kills on that sortie.


Sergio

geetarman
09-15-2006, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by Sergio_101:
Hope Oleg saw it!

The 4 Bf-109 vs 3 P-51 dogfight was a real eye opener.
Those P-51Bs out turned the Bf-109s in a sustained turn
and out climbed them.

Also, Col Bud Anderson got into a one on one
with an obvious "experten".
Equally obvious, Bud is an American experten.

Bud out climbed, out maneuvered and out turned the 109.

Bud Anderson got two confirmed 109 kills on that sortie.


Sergio


Duck! Incoming!

Fork-N-spoon
09-15-2006, 08:17 PM
The problem with anecdotal evidence is:
1.We don€t know the condition of each aircraft
2.We don€t know the condition of each pilot
3.We don€t know the energy state of each aircraft prior to the engagement
4.In combat, pilots report seeing one thing when in fact the exact opposite is true.
5.Controlled recorded tests performed by seasoned test pilots are by far more accurate and objective than combat reports when we€re considering A. How fast will an aircraft go. B. How well does it turn. C. How well does it climb.

LStarosta
09-15-2006, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by Sergio_101:
Hope Oleg saw it!

The 4 Bf-109 vs 3 P-51 dogfight was a real eye opener.
Those P-51Bs out turned the Bf-109s in a sustained turn
and out climbed them.

Also, Col Bud Anderson got into a one on one
with an obvious "experten".
Equally obvious, Bud is an American experten.

Bud out climbed, out maneuvered and out turned the 109.

Bud Anderson got two confirmed 109 kills on that sortie.


Sergio

The USAF just plain ol' owned.
And there's no way I am biased.
It's pure fact.

fordfan25
09-15-2006, 08:42 PM
no way that show is right. it goes aginst everything olge has washed into my brain lol

LStarosta
09-15-2006, 10:22 PM
There is no Oleg, there is the Force.

BaronUnderpants
09-16-2006, 08:38 AM
There u have it, its been said on TV, therefore it has to be true. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

heywooood
09-16-2006, 09:12 AM
what - you mean thats not actual footage?


is it buttage?


hmmm I used to believe everything..now I just mutter alot.

Sergio_101
09-16-2006, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by BaronUnderpants:
There u have it, its been said on TV, therefore it has to be true. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Supporting combat report. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-repor...-simpson-27may44.jpg (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/357-simpson-27may44.jpg)

Bud Anderson gave the account in person on the television program. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Not just another television show. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif
if it was Hartmann you people would NEVER question his account. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sergio

heywooood
09-16-2006, 11:15 AM
well Sergio - you've nailed it.


it won't change things in here - but there it is.


I thought the program was well done and accurately depicted with the animation and narration mixed with the pilots' accounts...but I'm just another gullable 'merican.

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-16-2006, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by BaronUnderpants:
There u have it, its been said on TV, therefore it has to be true. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Actually it has been said by fighter pilots. Which just happend to be seen on tv. Which to me is more convincing then reading a quote in a book which is open to interpretation. Little common sense goes a long way.

luftluuver
09-16-2006, 11:30 AM
The History Channel. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Sergio_101
09-16-2006, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
The History Channel. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Actually I would agree that the History Channel
has a poor track wreckord. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

But I tend to believe Col. Clarence (Bud) Anderson. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Also above I posted a link to a confirming combat report. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

There are others at http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports.html
that also add confirrmation. seach the page for "27 May 1944" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
and you will get plenty of confirmation of the story.

That was an excellent program. They used CFS3
for the computer generated re-enactments. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Sergio

Sergio_101
09-16-2006, 07:45 PM
Bumpski http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Sergio

luftluuver
09-16-2006, 08:01 PM
I like this word
wreckord for it suits what the HC puts out.

BillyTheKid_22
09-16-2006, 08:15 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifDogfight!! lol!!!

Xiolablu3
09-16-2006, 08:32 PM
OK, I'll bite...


Wow look at George Peter Eder :-

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/eder.html

He outclimbed outurned and outdove these P51's in his Bf109, shooting down 10 P51's and around the same number of P47's. Lots and lot s of Heavy bombers too (his primary target) His record of kills is higher than Bud Andersons, too.

Bf109 must have been an amazing plane..

------------------


Wow, take a look at Bartels record vs P51/P47!

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/bartels.html

His score included nine P-47s eleven P-51s and fourteen P-38s! He must have outturned,outclimbed and outdove all those planes!!

That Bf109 sure was an AMAZING fighter! I wish we had all these guys combat reports. No doubt they would tell of how they outclimbed/outdove/outurned their enemies and how their armament 'blew apart' their enemies, just like all pilots did.

Should I continue with some more Aces versus P51/P47/P38 ? Or do you get the idea?

(OK I let myself down with this, but with all the bumping I couldnt resist, sorry! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

Sergio_101
09-16-2006, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
OK, I'll bite...


Wow look at George Peter Eder :-

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/eder.html

He outclimbed outurned and outdove these P51's in his Bf109, shooting down 10 P51's and around the same number of P47's. Lots and lot s of Heavy bombers too (his primary target) His record of kills is higher than Bud Andersons, too.

Bf109 must have been an amazing plane..

------------------


Wow, take a look at Bartels record vs P51/P47!

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/bartels.html

His score included nine P-47s eleven P-51s and fourteen P-38s! He must have outturned,outclimbed and outdove all those planes!!

That Bf109 sure was an AMAZING fighter! I wish we had all these guys combat reports. No doubt they would tell of how they outclimbed/outdove/outurned their enemies and how their armament 'blew apart' their enemies, just like all pilots did.

Should I continue with some more Aces versus P51/P47/P38 ? Or do you get the idea?

(OK I let myself down with this, but with all the bumping I couldnt resist, sorry! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

When I get the chance I'll see if there is a match between those claims and USAAF losses on those dates.

If previous experiance holds true there won't
be more than a 20% match rate. I have seen where
many American planes were claimed on a certain
date and there are NO sorties, let alone losses
on that date!

Germans overclaimed in the EXTREME.

Sergio

Ironman69
09-16-2006, 09:15 PM
If you remember the situation during Bud's engagement just prior to the 109 pulling vertical to chase Bud's climbing Mustang, the 109 chopped throttle and pulled a hard left turn...undoubtedly losing it's Energy. Bud immediately pulled into a steep climb. The 109 pulled up too..even with it's depleted energy state! Even with it's HUGE energy deficit, the 109 almost managed to climb just as high as Bud's more Energy possessing Mustang. A remarkable feat of power from the 109, especially in it's famous climb. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Xiolablu3
09-16-2006, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Sergio_101:

Germans overclaimed in the EXTREME.

Sergio


So did EVERYONE.

The US bomber gunners where the worst of all overclaimers.

reisen52
09-16-2006, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
So did EVERYONE.
The US bomber gunners where the worst of all overclaimers.

And at the end of the day the experten were all gone the USAAF ruled the sky over Berlin & the Germans lost.

The that the Luftwaffe lost is an undisputable fact...only the excuses as to why they lost continue to change.

Xiolablu3
09-17-2006, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by reisen52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
So did EVERYONE.
The US bomber gunners where the worst of all overclaimers.

And at the end of the day the experten were all gone the USAAF ruled the sky over Berlin & the Germans lost.

The that the Luftwaffe lost is an undisputable fact...only the excuses as to why they lost continue to change. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think you will find that the RAF and the Soviet airforce also did a little bit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif to help, and maybe also ruled a little part of the sky. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Esel1964
09-17-2006, 03:06 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sergio_101:

Germans overclaimed in the EXTREME.

Sergio


So did EVERYONE.

The US bomber gunners where the worst of all overclaimers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've read stories of American mess cooks coming to blows over which unit had the best SOS,"sh** on a shingle",a.k.a. chipped beef on toast.
*BS alert* http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Yeah,we Americans can "overclaim";you'll have to excuse me,I need to urinate-I guess I'd better get going since I'm dragging some gear on the way.Gotta be careful-one bad step and "WHOAAA NELLLYYY". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gifDon't want to scuff "Mr. Happy".


All in jest M8's,all in jest. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

BaronUnderpants
09-17-2006, 04:04 AM
Originally posted by Sergio_101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaronUnderpants:
There u have it, its been said on TV, therefore it has to be true. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Supporting combat report. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-repor...-simpson-27may44.jpg (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/357-simpson-27may44.jpg)

Bud Anderson gave the account in person on the television program. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Not just another television show. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif
if it was Hartmann you people would NEVER question his account. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sergio </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Take note to the fact that i joke about the accurecy of ANY tv show. Bud Anderson or no Bud Anderson. Media turns history any wich way suites their purpose, much like movie makers. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And maby u right about the Hartmann point, but guess what, there NEVER is a History reanactment about the other side ( unless its about the losing side losing, like the Red Baron f.ex. ) so all we ever hear is about the winning side, how it kicked losing sides but, how equipment was superior and so on....when we ALL know that wasnt the case every singel time., not even most of the time. If that was the case allied crews/pilots wouldnt have been killed.

Jetbuff
09-17-2006, 04:05 AM
Bud Anderson isn't lying, he outflew his opponent. But to extrapolate that to specific aircraft abilities is speculative at best.

The fact is, the P-51 was a much bigger and heavier plane. Both its wing-loading and power-loading were worse than the 109 - regardless of fuel state. If you don't believe me dig up the numbers yourself. For it to out-turn or outclimb a 109, there must be some other factor involved, imperceptible to or overlooked by the pilot giving the account. To believe otherwise defies the laws of physics.

If you're wondering here's a short list of possible 'missed' factors:

- pilot skill
- pilot state of mind on that particular engagement
- variable pilot G resistance
- G-suits
- airframe/engine condition
- mission parameters
- pre-engagement energy and awaredness states

WWMaxGunz
09-17-2006, 04:13 AM
History Channel... Greatest Dogfights? Sorry but they missed the boat right there.

The tactics are displayed and explained nicely. It's the HC billing, comments and
conclusions rather than the actual material that is hyped, spun and inflated to
a political degree as usual. Effing Rah-rahs can't just present material for what
it is which should be enough.

And for some members here, please get it through your heads that the planes did not
fly themseles! P-51 did not simply outturn 109G in that account -- Anderson's group
of FOUR pilots in their P-51's managed through turning battle at very high alt to get
behind some unspecified group of pilots in FOUR 109G's and get three for no losses.

Kill counts do not equal technology.

And last I heard there were many German Experten who survived WWII regardless of "who
won".

Why must so many members revert to age 10 and under?

F6_Ace
09-17-2006, 04:34 AM
You mean they cherry picked a Bud Anderson engagement so that applies to all situations? Such is the danger of the History Channel.

Sorry to quote this again but, in response to "Germans overclaimed in the EXTREME"....we have this quote from Pierre Clostermann who was, of course, flying on the allied side and, hence, should not be quite so biased:

"There was one point on which all fighter pilots agreed whether British, French or Polish: the obvious superiority of the surviving LW pilots in 1944 and 1945. The Americans, as always, considered themselves best but the kills they claimed for their P51s and P47s and the number of 109s supposedly downed by B17s and B24s were the stuff of Hollywood movies, outlandish and ridiculous. We were amused by their naivete as were most likely the Luftwaffe. We realised, of course, that this was for public consumption back in the States: the authorities dared release only partial statistics of losses, thereby strengthening the national conviction of superiority.'

He then goes on to talk about specialist RAF and allied commissions looking at the Luftwaffe's 'meticulous' records and, effectively concluding that their claims were, more or less, accurate.

carguy_
09-17-2006, 06:25 AM
And USAAF never overclaimedanything,they just pwned every kraut who dared to take his poor 109 into the skies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

Sergio_101
09-17-2006, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:
And USAAF never overclaimedanything,they just pwned every kraut who dared to take his poor 109 into the skies

I agree. Flying a 109 during late 1944 was suicide. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

You guys seem stuck on the climb issue.
explain how the P-51s out turned the 109s in two turning circles? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
This is not a simple advantage, it's a sustained turn from a position of disadvantage.
They turned more tightly and after two circled were on the Bf-109s "6". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Three USAAF pilots of which one was a top knotch vetran.
Four Bf-109 pilots of which one was obviously an "experten". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

P-51Bs were not equipped for G suits.

Sergio


P-51s may not have won the war, but they did not loose it.
Loosing the war was left to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Vipez-
09-17-2006, 06:42 AM
Dumdidum, Sergio_101 I find your lack of faith for the axis aircraft disturbing. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Flg._Adler
09-17-2006, 10:25 AM
How come they never show the axis dogfights and what happens when u get an me-109 on yuor tail flying a p-51d.

Or how the german pilots went headon with b-17s. The 8th airforce was losing betwen 40-50 aircraft on raids over germany in mid 1943. It wasnt the flak that toke those b-17s to hell it was the germans pilots like Erich Rudorffer.

heywooood
09-17-2006, 10:31 AM
this thread is already smoking...the wings are holed...the canopy glass is shattered and was that a mayday?


I hope the ripcord gets pulled sooner than later...only because we've already seen this guncam footage several times and we know how it ends.

geetarman
09-17-2006, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
You mean they cherry picked a Bud Anderson engagement so that applies to all situations? Such is the danger of the History Channel.

Sorry to quote this again but, in response to "Germans overclaimed in the EXTREME"....we have this quote from Pierre Clostermann who was, of course, flying on the allied side and, hence, should not be quite so biased:

"There was one point on which all fighter pilots agreed whether British, French or Polish: the obvious superiority of the surviving LW pilots in 1944 and 1945. The Americans, as always, considered themselves best but the kills they claimed for their P51s and P47s and the number of 109s supposedly downed by B17s and B24s were the stuff of Hollywood movies, outlandish and ridiculous. We were amused by their naivete as were most likely the Luftwaffe. We realised, of course, that this was for public consumption back in the States: the authorities dared release only partial statistics of losses, thereby strengthening the national conviction of superiority.'

He then goes on to talk about specialist RAF and allied commissions looking at the Luftwaffe's 'meticulous' records and, effectively concluding that their claims were, more or less, accurate.

Clostremann was an arrogant ***. Bud Anderson would have kicked his Frenchie *** from pillar to post. Same with the Nazi's supermen

heywooood
09-17-2006, 10:39 AM
hmmm...really?.... geez thats not inflammatory atall.

Abbuzze
09-17-2006, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Sergio_101:
[
Germans overclaimed in the EXTREME.

Sergio

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif The LW was definatly not more overclaiming than all other air forces. You should read Ring/Shores: Fighter over the desert. You would learn a lot about overclaiming.

Beside if you want to see some real overclaiming take a look at the 8th AF gunners. The numbers of the claims were such laughable, that british and french officers calculated them down to more realitic numbers irc. They said that if the figures would be correct the gunners would have destroyed the LW alone.


And it ist also interesting that every german pilot who was able to fly more than straigt was promoted to an expert by US-aces. It would be possible to check out if a real expert was lost at this time in this area, but it seem that this is not that interesting.

Beside, to the report that you have linked. May 1944 - there is very little doubt that the P51 is superior to the clean G6 that was used at this time - Hartmann described this G6 as hopeless against the Pony. Against a G10 with a good Pilot would be much harder.

F6_Ace
09-17-2006, 11:14 AM
arrogant ***

Didn't someone say that to Commander Tupolev?

"You arrogant ***! You've killed US!"

tomtheyak
09-17-2006, 11:59 AM
WRT Overclaiming i think a lot of you fellas need to get off yor high horses; overclaiming is a consistent factor on all sides in any/all air combats since WW1 till I imagine evn as far as the first Gulf war and even in this data-rich combat environment will no doubt still occur in the future.

Brits overclaimed (175 on 15th Sept, 1940 actual 56-60 depending on your source).

Jerry overclaimed (entire estimates during BoB period would have meant Fighter Command had been wiped out three times over!).

Yanks overclaimed (no specific examples but the air gunner claims are a good case in point).

No-one gets neat little 'Enemy Aircraft Destroyed' or 'So-&-So is wounded' messages IRL.
They have to deal with having flown for hours, having been up since pre-dawn, been on ops straight for 9 months or more, high altitude low temperarures, disorientating manoeuvres and draining high-g pull-outs.

Most claims are made in good faith and having read many combat reports from all sides most seem fairly indisputable, but not being there and having a Gods eye-view I really dont think any of us are in a position to make judgements on this.

Abbuzze
09-17-2006, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Sergio_101:

You guys seem stuck on the climb issue.
explain how the P-51s out turned the 109s in two turning circles? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
This is not a simple advantage, it's a sustained turn from a position of disadvantage.
They turned more tightly and after two circled were on the Bf-109s "6".




P51 were know for the good perfomance at high altitude, we are talking about a 109 with a late 1942 engine with a rated alt of 5800m. This is exactly what happens in FB. It´s very well modelled. A sustained turn in a 109 with a DB605A with the low power at this alt is a hard job. Any performance sheets there for a Merlin-Allison power/alt?

reisen52
09-17-2006, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Flg._Adler:
How come they never show the axis dogfights and what happens when u get an me-109 on yuor tail flying a p-51d.

Or how the german pilots went headon with b-17s. The 8th airforce was losing betwen 40-50 aircraft on raids over germany in mid 1943. It wasnt the flak that toke those b-17s to hell it was the germans pilots like Erich Rudorffer.

And by the early summer of 1944 the vaunted Luftwaffe with its superman pilots were able to put exactly how many sorties over the beaches of Normandy?

Red-Baron2006
09-17-2006, 02:12 PM
enough to almost wipe out the 8th airforce b-17s in a matter of weeks. When they showed bud andersons clip on tv on the history channel, his squadron shot down 3 me-109s. BUT they lost 12 b-17s.

PBNA-Boosher
09-17-2006, 02:15 PM
This is all BS!

Everyone knows that iranian soldier-bears (http://www.iranchamber.com/podium/history/050807_iranian_soldier_bear.php) won the war!

reisen52
09-17-2006, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Red-Baron2006:
enough to almost wipe out the 8th airforce b-17s in a matter of weeks. When they showed bud andersons clip on tv on the history channel, his squadron shot down 3 me-109s. BUT they lost 12 b-17s.

Don't confuse 1943 with 1944. They were able to put exactly how many planes over Normandy on D-Day?

Be that as it may almost & close only counts in horseshoes not in war, they failed to do it..

Bottom line is they failed in the Battle of Brittan, they failed to wipe out the 8th Air Force, they failed to attack the beaches at Normandy, they failed at covering the routed Germans retreating through Falaise, they failed in defending the German homeland both day & night, they failed to feed & equip the troops at Stalingrad as promised, the failed.....Hey to you see a pattern developing here.

Sergio_101
09-17-2006, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by reisen52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Red-Baron2006:
enough to almost wipe out the 8th airforce b-17s in a matter of weeks. When they showed bud andersons clip on tv on the history channel, his squadron shot down 3 me-109s. BUT they lost 12 b-17s.

Almost & close only counts in horseshoes not in war, they failed to do it..

Bottom line is they failed in the Battle of Brittan, they failed to wipe out the 8th Air Force, they failed to attack the beaches at Normandy, they failed at covering the routed Germans retreating through Falaise, they failed in defending the German homeland both day & night, they failed to feed & equip the troops at Stalingrad as promised, the failed.....Hey to you see a pattern developing here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Luftwhiners love the luftcrutch that they were beaten by numbers. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
When it comes to 4 engined bombers they were
truly out numbered. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
12 B-17s is a terrible loss. But 12,700 B-17s
were built. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif
In the big picture it's a drop in the bucket. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Anyone got the stats on German 4 engined bomber production? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Sergio



P-51s may not have won the war, but they did not loose it.
Loosing the war was left to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

reisen52
09-17-2006, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Sergio_101: Luftwhiners love the luftcrutch that they were beaten by numbers. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
When it comes to 4 engined bombers they were
truly out numbered. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
12 B-17s is a terrible loss. But 12,700 B-17s
were built. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif
In the big picture it's a drop in the bucket. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Anyone got the stats on German 4 engined bomber production? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Sergio
P-51s may not have won the war, but they did not loose it.
Loosing the war was left to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Love the "we only had 10 kids with 10 hours whatever in 190's to defend all of Germany against the Yankee hoards so of course we were a bunch of losers excuse."

Where O Where did the experten go to cause this to happen. When things got tuff did the experten whip out their union contracts that said they had to have the advantage in the fight or they would walk off the job & hit the bricks.

F6_Ace
09-17-2006, 04:43 PM
The History channel would be bankrupt within weeks without people like him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

mandrill7
09-17-2006, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
This is all BS!

Everyone knows that iranian soldier-bears (http://www.iranchamber.com/podium/history/050807_iranian_soldier_bear.php) won the war!

I read the piece in the link too. IMHO the Iranian Soldier Bear was the biggest overclaimer of them all!

RCAF_Irish_403
09-17-2006, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by F6_Ace:
The History channel would be bankrupt within weeks without people like him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

like who?

LStarosta
09-17-2006, 09:29 PM
Like many of his fellow soldiers, that bear was given an awful life after the war.

That reminds me of General Sosabowski. You might remember him as the character that Gene Hackman played in A Bridge Too Far. He was a veteran of the September Campaign, after which he was captured, later escaped to France and fought there until France capitulated. He then made his way to Great Britain where he Commanded the 1st Polish Independent Parachute Brigade which was formed with the intention of being dropped over Warsaw to aid an inevitable uprising against the Nazi occupant. Instead they were dropped in Operation Market Garden.

Anyway, he was demoted and shunned after the war by the British for criticizing Montgomery, and by the Polish Communists. He brought to West London his only son who had been permanently blinded in the Warsaw Uprising, and died in poverty in 1967. He was posthumously awarded the Bronze Lion by Queen Beatrix this year, and a British organization of paratrooper veterans and others completely funded a beautiful memorial for General Sosabowski in Driel, which was unvieled by the General's great grandson yesterday.

Anyway, I know that's OT, but that ought to be something the History Channel should cover as opposed to the majority of their programming.