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LEBillfish
08-18-2006, 03:58 PM
Think I've heard of this place called Australia and I guess it turns out they had something to do with WWII............Anywho, whoever they are I guess some series of books on PDF are now released...

http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/volume.asp?conflict=2

Oh that's right.....How stupid of me, that's where the Sound of Music was filmed, the Germany being next to them forced them to fight in the war Australia where the music place is, Vienna......

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BiscuitKnight
08-18-2006, 04:02 PM
Good find, mate. Got an atlas, too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

F6_Ace
08-18-2006, 04:56 PM
There's a first http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gumtree
08-18-2006, 05:15 PM
The Australian War Memorial in Canberra is a facinating building with all things concerning Australian involvement in War.

If ever downunder you must go,the Me109-G in the aircraft hall is the only one left in the world still in its original paint, its worn but we preserved.

They have a great display in rememberance to the bomber crews with the centre piece being a Lancaster and the same 109 with a light show that left me chilled at the end...quite emotional.

fordfan25
08-18-2006, 10:42 PM
Australia
Australia? isnt that the place with all the windmills http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

fighter_966
08-19-2006, 02:15 AM
No Australia is the place of tulips and Cheese http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Feathered_IV
08-19-2006, 02:31 AM
I was thinking of posting a thread titled: Is Australian military history written by the losers?

Go into any bookshop in Australia and look in the military section. Just about 90% of the books on Australias involvement in WW2 are about the POW experience. Its a strange thing.

It really came home to me recently, when my girlfriend said to me, Were there really Australians who fought in the war? I thought they were all prisoners...

Maybe its got something to do with the Australian aversion for self congatulatory back slapping and big-talk. Usually anyone who tries to talk up their achievements gets called a w@nker pretty fast down here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

The recent Kokoda movie managed to wedge a few other titles between the stacks of Changi-memoirs. But for the most part, we seem fixated with our defeats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Tully__
08-19-2006, 03:34 AM
That place is excellent, I don't visit it enough. I have Sunday & Monday off, maybe I'll go and have another look.

As Gumtree mentioned, this is not what you might expect based on the "War Memorial" name, it is a full blown museum with very well thought out displays that treat all combatants respectfully and leaves all who visit affected and thoughtful. If you are ever in Canberra it is not to be missed.

TX-Gunslinger
08-19-2006, 03:50 AM
I have seen many pictures of that G6. How brilliant you folks were to have preserved it's actual paint scheme. So many of the restored birds just are not quite right.

I've never had the chance to visit Australia, although I'd like to. Just sent one of my technicians down to Perth and as usual, had nothing but great things to say and begging me to send him back.

S~

WTE_Ibis
08-19-2006, 04:24 AM
We were there to help you in Vietnam too Billfish.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9961027374


Have you ever wondered why there were no Scud missiles fired in the second invasion of Iraq Billfish?
Our SAS were there to make sure that didn't happen.


.

BiscuitKnight
08-19-2006, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I was thinking of posting a thread titled: Is Australian military history written by the losers?

Go into any bookshop in Australia and look in the military section. Just about 90% of the books on Australias involvement in WW2 are about the POW experience. Its a strange thing.

It really came home to me recently, when my girlfriend said to me, Were there really Australians who fought in the war? I thought they were all prisoners...

Maybe its got something to do with the Australian aversion for self congatulatory back slapping and big-talk. Usually anyone who tries to talk up their achievements gets called a w@nker pretty fast down here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

The recent Kokoda movie managed to wedge a few other titles between the stacks of Changi-memoirs. But for the most part, we seem fixated with our defeats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I heard "Tall Poppy Syndrome" described as a uniquely Australian thing. I've noticed that we Australians like to tear people down a lot, but I don't know if it's more than most other countries.

It's not a bad thing that there's so many Changi memoirs, because they're sobering reminders of the reality, but it's not necessarily a good thing, either. Food for thought.

Feathered_IV
08-19-2006, 07:00 AM
Its odd also how popular WW1 history in Australia focuses entirely on the events of Galipoli and the defeat there. The AIF's record for taking and holding its objectives on the western front, and successful battles such as that at Hamel go completely unremarked.

I was in the local library yesterday, in the ww2 section there were 11 books on the POW experience, 6 on Pearl Harbour, 3 on the fall of singapore and the rest were assorted books on other countries victories http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BiscuitKnight
08-19-2006, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
Its odd also how popular WW1 history in Australia focuses entirely on the events of Galipoli and the defeat there. The AIF's record for taking and holding its objectives on the western front, and successful battles such as that at Hamel go completely unremarked.

I was in the local library yesterday, in the ww2 section there were 11 books on the POW experience, 6 on Pearl Harbour, 3 on the fall of singapore and the rest were assorted books on other countries victories http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I've often asked myself if it's right that most Australians can't name any Australian war heros, while all of them could name five sportsmen and what they did, when they did it. In the US, I think most people know who MacArthur or Patton or Eisenhower (even though he's not actually a hero, just a hack, but there you are) and maybe even Lieutenant Winters, as well as the five sportsmen.

Ratsack
08-19-2006, 08:23 AM
Yep, I find it rather annoying the way the ANZAC tradition has been pumped up lately, all intertwined with Gallipoli and draped with political claptrap about the birth of a nation. While this national adoration of the Gallipoli defeat goes on, it€s almost completely forgotten that on the Western Front in 1918, the ANZAC Corps was the largest single formation in the Allied line. Not only that, it was commanded by an Australian, General Sir John Monash. By October, the forces under Monash€s command included two US divisions, the 27th and the 30th.

Not only was this formation numerically impressive, it also fought and won the key defensive and OFFENSIVE battles of 1918 against the Kaiser€s army, starting with the defeat of Ludendorf€s second offensive at Villers-Bretonneux in March, going on to the €˜black day of the German army€ on 8 August at Amiens, then Mont St Quentin and Peronne, and culminating in the breaching of the Hindenburg line itself.

But rather than commemorate victories without precedent for their scale or speed during that largely static war, we instead get all misty-eyed about a badly-planned foray into the Dardanelles that ended in a tactical and strategic defeat, and in which most of the Allied troops engaged were in any event English.

Go figure. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Cheers,
Ratsack

BiscuitKnight
08-19-2006, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
Yep, I find it rather annoying the way the ANZAC tradition has been pumped up lately, all intertwined with Gallipoli and draped with political claptrap about the birth of a nation. While this national adoration of the Gallipoli defeat goes on, it€s almost completely forgotten that on the Western Front in 1918, the ANZAC Corps was the largest single formation in the Allied line. Not only that, it was commanded by an Australian, General Sir John Monash. By October, the forces under Monash€s command included two US divisions, the 27th and the 30th.

Not only was this formation numerically impressive, it also fought and won the key defensive and OFFENSIVE battles of 1918 against the Kaiser€s army, starting with the defeat of Ludendorf€s second offensive at Villers-Bretonneux in March, going on to the €˜black day of the German army€ on 8 August at Amiens, then Mont St Quentin and Peronne, and culminating in the breaching of the Hindenburg line itself.

But rather than commemorate victories without precedent for their scale or speed during that largely static war, we instead get all misty-eyed about a badly-planned foray into the Dardanelles that ended in a tactical and strategic defeat, and in which most of the Allied troops engaged were in any event English.

Go figure. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Cheers,
Ratsack

You're right about all that, although I'd argue Gallipoli wasn't 100% defeat - Turkish casualties are estimated at 400,000, which was enough to cripple them and drew them away from the Russians. On the other hand, completely failed to open the Dardanelles, which meant Russia was starved of money and weapons.

fighter_966
08-19-2006, 08:50 AM
Australians were tough lot against Rommel..
cheers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Low_Flyer_MkVb
08-19-2006, 02:23 PM
I pass this memorial every day going to and from work...thought you Aussies out there might like to know we Poms remember...

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-memorials/weymouth.htm

nte70
08-19-2006, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I was thinking of posting a thread titled: Is Australian military history written by the losers?

Go into any bookshop in Australia and look in the military section. Just about 90% of the books on Australias involvement in WW2 are about the POW experience. Its a strange thing.

It really came home to me recently, when my girlfriend said to me, Were there really Australians who fought in the war? I thought they were all prisoners...

Maybe its got something to do with the Australian aversion for self congatulatory back slapping and big-talk. Usually anyone who tries to talk up their achievements gets called a w@nker pretty fast down here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

The recent Kokoda movie managed to wedge a few other titles between the stacks of Changi-memoirs. But for the most part, we seem fixated with our defeats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
our defeats are where we made our name.
ememy allways thought twice before attacking aussie positions twice.
we allways gaind the respect of the enemy in our disasterous assalts as well.

Ratsack
08-19-2006, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by nte70:

our defeats are where we made our name.
ememy allways thought twice before attacking aussie positions twice.
we allways gaind the respect of the enemy in our disasterous assalts as well.

Not really. The Aussies had a reputation on the Western Front as colonial rabble, until they started winning battles. The focus on ANZAC Day and Gallipoli was a psychological ploy of the ANZAC generals at the time to help motivate their troops: remember your fallen comrades, and all that. ANZAC Day was not a general rememberance day observed by the public at large until well after the Great War ended. We tend to think of it these days as if it's always been the nationalistic, flag-waving event it has recently become, but that view is making history backwards. The first few post war rememberance ceremonies were essentially private gatherings at which non-veterans were not even asked to participate.

So in my view, the general public focus on our noble defeats is a retrospective thing. At the time, the ANZACs made their name by winning, not losing.

cheers,
Ratsack

Charos
08-20-2006, 01:31 AM
As a direct example to how often us down under folk like to blow our own trumpet, take note of how many Ozies have replied to this thread.

BiscuitKnight
08-20-2006, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
Not really. The Aussies had a reputation on the Western Front as colonial rabble, until they started winning battles. The focus on ANZAC Day and Gallipoli was a psychological ploy of the ANZAC generals at the time to help motivate their troops: remember your fallen comrades, and all that. ANZAC Day was not a general rememberance day observed by the public at large until well after the Great War ended. We tend to think of it these days as if it's always been the nationalistic, flag-waving event it has recently become, but that view is making history backwards. The first few post war rememberance ceremonies were essentially private gatherings at which non-veterans were not even asked to participate.

So in my view, the general public focus on our noble defeats is a retrospective thing. At the time, the ANZACs made their name by winning, not losing.

cheers,
Ratsack

Too true. Australian soldiers earn respect of enemies on the battlefield, but at home we focus on defeats. Maybe not fair on our soldiers?

For example, who's heard of Kapyong Day or Long Tan? It was on the news this year, but not last. Next year we might get Kapyong Day in the news, who knows. The Howard Government has really promoted Australia's military history, good on them.

Treetop64
08-20-2006, 02:55 AM
Austrailia. Isn't that, like, close to Minnesota or something...? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

BiscuitKnight
08-20-2006, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by Treetop64:
Austrailia. Isn't that, like, close to Minnesota or something...? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Find North Korea. Big thing, with one smaller thing below it, then two other smaller things to the right. That's it. Or maybe it's a refuelling station for passing USN carriers. Still deciding.

Ratsack
08-20-2006, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by Treetop64:
Austrailia. Isn't that, like, close to Minnesota or something...? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

You know where USAF B-52s practice bombing from >700 feet? Australia is the red/brown stuff just below them.

cheers,
Ratsack

Draughluin1
08-20-2006, 04:22 AM
We especially remember the defeats, because it recognises the tremendous and often the ultimate sacrifice that our servicemen have given to our country. We honour their memory, as no doubt, other nations do for their fallen. Wars are ugly things, nothing about glory and never to be entered into lightly. Maybe if other nations did more of the same, then there might be a little less conflict in the world. Who knows. If you ever get the privledge, take the time to chat to a vetran, someone who has been through it. For me, it will always be Barry McManus at Changi, Errol Judd, a tail gunner in Lancasters over Germany and Charlie Martin an armourer of Spitfire 8's in New Guniea and Borneo. All grim stories from these now deseased but never forgotten gents. On lighter note, to my esteemed American friends, take a look at the Australian currency and compare it to yours. We have pictures of artists, engineers, doctors, scientests, etc (& also the Queen)on ours. Unless I'm mistaken, you have Presidents. No doubt, great and honourable men, but still politicians in the end. Now tell me, who has got their priorities right? A local in Hawaii asked me about this fifteen years ago. Go figure.

Feathered_IV
08-20-2006, 06:01 AM
Originally posted by Treetop64:
Austrailia. Isn't that, like, close to Minnesota or something...? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Dosen't matter where it is, it's how you pronounce it that counts. These days the bogans all say Osh-tray-ya. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Ratsack
08-20-2006, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
Austrailia. Isn't that, like, close to Minnesota or something...? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

... These days the bogans all say Osh-tray-ya. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And all this time I thought it was just 'Straya'.

Ratsack

LEBillfish
08-20-2006, 10:25 AM
Actually I think those who I assume are Australians must have a totally different viewpoint of their own vs. most of the rest of the world. As to "memorials" well that only makes sense as they acknowledge the sacrifice made, those who survive also remembered by them though their suffering greater most likely.

Yet how the world I believe sees the contribution of Australians is quite different then what I'm reading here. The average person I bet imagines the average Australian in combat as being "casual". I say casual, as be it true or not many think of them as lightly trained, often poorly equipped, and very undisciplined BUT....and this is a HUUUUuuuuuge BUT.....That being because we imagine the average Australian as being un-trainable, and it better for them to be that way, it better to let them do their thing, their own way to get the job done.

It's hard to describe, yet it's an impression NOT like the English "stiff upper lip" or the Americans "satirical attitude" or say the Germans "rigidity" or Japanese "death before dishonor" or Russians "long suffering".....Its more a casual attitude as though it will be a "hoot".....Something to the effect of "You 8 rush up that hill and take out the 1,000 at the top", yet you see the 8 get a big grin like the fight will be "fun", a hoot, like wresting with your buds when you've been drinking too much.

In other words, so tough, so tenacious because it's exciting, that it makes for good fun more then fear.

Now true or not (and no doubt not) That would be the impression I think most have of the average Australian fighting man. A tough bassid that looks at it in such a casual manner that it's almost a game.....YET, that because they are so tough and ferocious it's easy for them.......

Frankly, I can't think of a single loss by the Australians that really makes an impression (though knowing of units facing this it just doesn't strike home as though it was their goof, simply overwhelming odds).......Yet I can think of numerous encounters where the much smaller Australian contingent made the difference alone, yet never seems to want to take the time to stick around for the glory almost as though bored with it once over.

A perfect example the following taken from "MacArthur's Eagles, by Lex McAulay", this when the Americans were flying Thunderbolts & Lightning's, the RAAF flying what they had.....Few accounts of Australian pilots victories, yet not because they didn't exist by far, just not bragged upon as though "so, that's what we do?"........

"Escort with a difference";

"Richard "D*ck" Grills, rear gunner in B-24 "Terry's Pirates", had noticed how the fighter escort would "discreetly" slide away from the bombers as they entered the flak zone over the target and then swing back in when it was all over. But one day he watched a RAAF P-40 maintain station on the B-24's as the others swung out (probably U.S. P-38's/P47's), and then it crept in closer and closer to sit just off the right tailfin and stay there through all the flak and to the end of the bomb run. The pilot was looking across at D*ck, grinning and waving all the while. D*ck never did find out who the pilot was, or why he did it, but it increased his regard for the RAAF P-40 pilots."

No fear, casual, it simply good fun.......The casual courage to the rest of the world I think simply outshines any loss.....That's the kind of thing I think most of the rest of the world remembers.

IMLTHO

Warrington_Wolf
08-20-2006, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Think I've heard of this place called Australia and I guess it turns out they had something to do with WWII............Anywho, whoever they are I guess some series of books on PDF are now released...

http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/volume.asp?conflict=2

Oh that's right.....How stupid of me, that's where the Sound of Music was filmed, the Germany being next to them forced them to fight in the war Australia where the music place is, Vienna......

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I think Ive heard of Australia, did it have a minor role in our legal system at one time http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif.

Joking aside, I do respect and remember the sacrifice of those commenwealth soldiers, airmen and seamen that died to safegaurd the freedoms that we take for granted.

blakduk
08-20-2006, 07:34 PM
Part of the mystery of the Australians love of talking highly of their disasters has been the result of a fear of being seen by their peers as being 'full of themself'. That means it is seen as highly improper to tell others how great you are as your mates will take this as an opportunity to have a go at you. As a result it our culture usually distrusts a braggard and highly respects the modest high achiever who is a master of understatement. In a lot of ways it reflects the British attitude of reserve- as compared with the love of show and mass adulation that is seen in many other cultures.
I had an American friend years ago who was astonished at our ANZAC day parades- first shock was that we had one where all the veterans paraded in civies to be cheered by the public, then all went and got drunk and played 'two-up' (The USA has a 'veterans day' but they dont parade in their old units)
The second shock was that the parade didnt have flashy marching bands and razzamataz- by USA standards it was pretty boring.
I also pointed out to my friend that a lot of veterans i knew refused to march as they felt the 'old buggers' were too political and believed it would be showing off. Many regarded it as something they had gone off to with their mates, many of whom didnt return, and was just something they had to do.
For a lot of the WW1 and WW2 veterans the wars were their best chance to see the world.

Most of our genuine heroes returned from wars to little acclaim, mainly because they were genuinely embarassed by the attention.

Oz_Canuck
08-20-2006, 09:07 PM
Thanks for that link..I can look at the books in the State Library, but you can't take them out. This is perfect. Lots of great info in there...

tagTaken2
08-20-2006, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by BiscuitKnight:

The Howard Government has really promoted Australia's military history, good on them.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif You're priceless.

panther3485
08-21-2006, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by tagTaken2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BiscuitKnight:

The Howard Government has really promoted Australia's military history, good on them.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif You're priceless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the most recent incident, I think it's more a case that our government was embarassed into making an acknowledgement (in this case, acknowledging the outstanding valor of the men at Long Tan).

GerritJ9
08-21-2006, 01:44 AM
When all is said and done, the Australians still require a Dutch coach to teach them how to play soccer properly! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BiscuitKnight
08-21-2006, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by tagTaken2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BiscuitKnight:

The Howard Government has really promoted Australia's military history, good on them.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif You're priceless. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You more so, go back ten years, you wouldn't have heard of Long Tan, Tobruk or Kapyong. Hell, I know for a fact that ANZAC day attendance has picked up since the Howard election. I didn't say they're all roses, but give credit where it's due.

Go stick it up your jumper.

Oh and, how would they be embarassed into it? I do believe that the recognition that Vietnam vets were treated like dirt has been a weight on governments since before Howard.


Originally posted by Draughluin1:

We especially remember the defeats, because it recognises the tremendous and often the ultimate sacrifice that our servicemen have given to our country. We honour their memory, as no doubt, other nations do for their fallen. Wars are ugly things, nothing about glory and never to be entered into lightly. Maybe if other nations did more of the same, then there might be a little less conflict in the world. Who knows. If you ever get the privledge, take the time to chat to a vetran, someone who has been through it. For me, it will always be Barry McManus at Changi, Errol Judd, a tail gunner in Lancasters over Germany and Charlie Martin an armourer of Spitfire 8's in New Guniea and Borneo. All grim stories from these now deseased but never forgotten gents. On lighter note, to my esteemed American friends, take a look at the Australian currency and compare it to yours. We have pictures of artists, engineers, doctors, scientests, etc (& also the Queen)on ours. Unless I'm mistaken, you have Presidents. No doubt, great and honourable men, but still politicians in the end. Now tell me, who has got their priorities right? A local in Hawaii asked me about this fifteen years ago. Go figure.

That attitude really bugs me. I've spoken to literally scores of veterans, and I have respect for all of them, but I've yet to hear one say "I wish we'd never gone to war" even the multiple Viet Vets haven't said it around me. I've heard that they thought they were doing a good thing, and maybe it would have been better not to get involved, but it seems that the people making these sacrifices are willing to do so, while the rest run around trying to put cotton wool on things.

If most people wouldn't make a stand when it's needed (whether or not that's their reason) the world would be a worse place. It would be great if we didn't have wars, but they're inevitable, especially because war favours the aggressive. Look at the Falklands: it was a misguided belief on the British side that it wouldn't come to violence that caused such deaths there. Meanwhile the UN was calling for Britain to withdraw - riddiculous as it seemed to many for the UK to be defending a tiny colonial outpost in the early 80s, long after most colonies were independant, and the total troops on both sides outnumbered the population 10 - 1 (Approx 9,000 soldiers either side = 18,000 to the 1,800 citizens. Add the military forces mobilised on both sides and it'd be closer to 100). If the UN had its way, and Argentina was allowed to be so aggressive, where would it have ended? A war with Chile?

People have to strike a balance between what is required and what can be avoided. It's important not to over-emphasise either - wasn't it a policy of diplomacy that lead to Germany having such a strong position in 1939. By contrast, 1914 was the opposite end of the spectrum, where the politians unleashed their War Machines on a whim, and only then realised that it has a sickening, plodding, inexorable course when unleashed: rather than complex alliances being the main reason for WWI spreading so far, it was that, for example Austria could mobilise against Russia or Serbia, or both at once, but not one after the other. Russia could only mobilise against Austria and Germany, not just Austria, so they decided the risk that Germany would side with Austria was too high, and mobilised. Germany's government felt it necessary to defend itself, and mobilised - but only had plans to mobilise against France, knock it out of the war quickly, and then face Russia, then made their choice, and thus France was dragged into an Eastern European affair. Again, the balance has to be made between wanton war mongering and self defeating pacifism.

panther3485
08-21-2006, 06:16 AM
Originally posted by BiscuitKnight:
"The Howard Government has really promoted Australia's military history, good on them."

When it comes to Australia's military history and tradition in general, I would agree with you that the Howard government does deserve credit here, especially when compared with some previous governments. In fact, I'd say that traditional ideas and values across the board have had better support from the present administration.



"You more so, go back ten years, you wouldn't have heard of Long Tan, Tobruk or Kapyong. Hell, I know for a fact that ANZAC day attendance has picked up since the Howard election."

Being from a military family and having a life-long interest in military history, I have of course been well aware of these for a very long time. But as far as the general public are concerned; I think most of them (particularly the older ones) would have heard of Tobruk. Far fewer, I think, would have been aware of Kapyong or Long Tan.

As for ANZAC day attendances 'picking up', yes, I've witnessed that as well (having been involved in every ANZAC day since 1974, the first nine years of this as a serving member). Perhaps the Howard government has helped this along somewhat in recent years but there have also been substantial shifts both in World events and in public opinion, since the low point of the Vietnam War era and its immediate aftermath. These factors have also contributed much, I feel.



"I didn't say they're all roses, but give credit where it's due."

I believe I just have.



"Go stick it up your jumper."

I don't think that was aimed at me, so no need to respond to it?



"Oh and, how would they be embarassed into it? I do believe that the recognition that Vietnam vets were treated like dirt has been a weight on governments since before Howard."

It's true to say that this recognition (that Vietnam veterans have been unfairly treated) has been something of a burden on Australian governments for some time.

My reference was to the specific instance of the small number of Vietnam veterans who fought at Long Tan. Obviously, this wasn't specifically the fault of the present government. It must be seen to go back to the government/s in power at the time of Vietnam (and perhaps the Military heirarchy itself to some extent?)

It just so happens to have been the 40th anniversary this year and there have been concerted, refreshed efforts on the part of Veterans' lobby groups for these men to receive their proper and rightful recognition. Said recognition, in terms both of medals and general credit, has been singularly lacking all this time.

Mr Howard himself, after consultation with advisers and at least one representative of those same Veterans, seemed very moved by this and it was clear that although his government wasn't to blame, he felt the pressure and it did cause the government some embarassment, if only because they are the present administration that is being expected to deal with the renewed appeal to award medals to these men. This pressure is evident more now than at any previous time.

I don't say that this reflects badly on the present government at all, as they have merely 'inherited' this conundrum from previous administrations. However, I will be interested to see what, if anything, develops from it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Best regards, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
panther3485

R988z
08-21-2006, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Australia
Australia? isnt that the place with all the windmills http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Australia was called New Holland for a while, so you're not far off.

R988z
08-21-2006, 09:28 AM
I heard "Tall Poppy Syndrome" described as a uniquely Australian thing. I've noticed that we Australians like to tear people down a lot, but I don't know if it's more than most other countries.


No, I notice it to a degree in other countries, especially here in Britain.

R988z
08-21-2006, 09:39 AM
A perfect example the following taken from "MacArthur's Eagles, by Lex McAulay", this when the Americans were flying Thunderbolts & Lightning's, the RAAF flying what they had.....Few accounts of Australian pilots victories, yet not because they didn't exist by far, just not bragged upon as though "so, that's what we do?"........

"Escort with a difference";

"Richard "D*ck" Grills, rear gunner in B-24 "Terry's Pirates", had noticed how the fighter escort would "discreetly" slide away from the bombers as they entered the flak zone over the target and then swing back in when it was all over. But one day he watched a RAAF P-40 maintain station on the B-24's as the others swung out (probably U.S. P-38's/P47's), and then it crept in closer and closer to sit just off the right tailfin and stay there through all the flak and to the end of the bomb run. The pilot was looking across at D*ck, grinning and waving all the while. D*ck never did find out who the pilot was, or why he did it, but it increased his regard for the RAAF P-40 pilots."



Here's another story you might like then
http://www.abc.net.au/austory/transcripts/s590505.htm

SithSpeeder
08-21-2006, 01:39 PM
Here's another story you might like then
http://www.abc.net.au/austory/transcripts/s590505.htm Wow, great story.


The pilot was looking across at D*ck, grinning and waving all the while. D*ck never did find out who the pilot was, or why he did it, but it increased his regard for the RAAF P-40 pilots. I believe that I would heartily disagree with this characterization had I been in his shoes. AAA aims at the bombers. For the escort to take risk getting hit by AAA when they don't have to is not smart. The escort mission is to protect the bombers from enemy aerial attack, not to absorb flak for the bombers. If they get damaged in a AAA barrage, then they are less able to fulfill their mission.

Who's credited for: "There are old pilots, and brave pilots... But there are no old brave pilots." ??

Anyways, not to hijack the thread. S! to the Aussies for sure. Much respect.

* _54th_Speeder *

tagTaken2
08-21-2006, 07:04 PM
Sorry, may have been misunderstood. IMO, the Howard government is the quite possibly the worst in Australia's history. I believe that he has misappropriated our military history for his own purposes, while simultaneously discouraging the things that do most honour to this country- the concepts of egalitarianism, self-sacrificem, "a fair go", open-mindedness and tolerance, and a healthy disregard for self-important w@nkers.

Essentially, I agree with your point, that our vets deserve respect and recognition, but I don't believe that politicians should ride the backs of those who gave for their country.

dusta01
08-21-2006, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
I was thinking of posting a thread titled: Is Australian military history written by the losers?

Go into any bookshop in Australia and look in the military section. Just about 90% of the books on Australias involvement in WW2 are about the POW experience. Its a strange thing.

It really came home to me recently, when my girlfriend said to me, Were there really Australians who fought in the war? I thought they were all prisoners...

Maybe its got something to do with the Australian aversion for self congatulatory back slapping and big-talk. Usually anyone who tries to talk up their achievements gets called a w@nker pretty fast down here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

The recent Kokoda movie managed to wedge a few other titles between the stacks of Changi-memoirs. But for the most part, we seem fixated with our defeats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I suggest you go to a real bookshop . I forget the name of the one in canberra but there is also a fantasic bookshop which i always go to when i am in melbourne and thats hylands bookshop on little collins street .


As a direct example to how often us down under folk like to blow our own trumpet, take note of how many Ozies have replied to this thread. Sorry for showing a bit of pride in my country . I don't know about you but i am proud to be australian, especially in our achievements and the way we look after our mates . If people perceive that as blowing smoke out of my own arse then so be it, they can think what they like .

Feathered_IV
08-21-2006, 10:32 PM
Dusta, I live 100m from Hylands Bookshop http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

But what I meant was the mainstream history. Names like Warren Frank Cowan for example are completely unknown to all but a few.
I dunno, I guess the services themselves keep their own history and traditions close to their chests.

BiscuitKnight
08-21-2006, 10:50 PM
IRT Panther3454

I wasn't speaking to you:

TagTaken2 said I was a laugh, as far as I'm concerned that's fairly inflamatory. Probably the Vietnam Veterans do deserve credit for increasing public awareness, I've never seen this though, the ones I know don't go to any ceremonies, I'm not faulting them on that nor saying it's a fact throughout the country, but from what I've seen there's been increasing emphasis on things like ANZAC day in the last four years at least. I've seen some evidence that the Howard government has been a part of this.

Again, TagTaken2 I felt wasn't giving credit where credit is due. You did, I don't have any disagreement with you, from what I've read on these forums so far, I have respect for you.

IRT TagTaken2

I don't think the Howard government is the greatest Australia's ever had either, but it's far from the worst. No1 on my list of worsts would be the Whitlam government. He had some good ideas, and he was an idealist, but lacked sufficient realism: Australia's Navy still lacks capital ships because of his choices, and free tertiary education is a nice, but horribly costly idea.

Howard's certainly a slippery character: with one hand, I read several places that his government has granted more citizenship and had greater immigration than any other Australian government, but with the other hand, he's portraying himself as somewhat anti-immigration, which gains him the support of those who're rightist and far right, while also getting votes from some on the other side, essentially playing Australia's rightist majority.

His defence policies also rile me in some cases, but in others I'm glad he's not a total budget cutter.

Next elections I'll vote for Labour if their policies stay the same. I might donkey vote if they shift 'left' again and Liberals stay so far 'left'.

panther3485
08-21-2006, 11:48 PM
Yep, see where you're coming from with this.

With the ANZAC day commemorations, I've seen a definite and steady increase in attendances for, perhaps, about the last 12-15 years, but it has been particularly noticeable for about the last 6-8. And I agree that the present government has helped to encourage and foster this.

As for the Howard government being 'quite possibly the worst in Australian history', well, I can't agree with that either.

That's not to say I'm happy with everything they've done, but I do believe that in general, they've done a fairly good job of running the country.

My main concerns are certain aspects of immigration policy, neglect of the Health system (passed on from previous governments) and I'm also disturbed by potential outcomes of their Industrial Relations reforms, especially if they go further down the same road.

But we're not supposed to discuss contemporary politics here, so I won't say any more! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif


Best regards, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
panther3485

Feathered_IV
08-21-2006, 11:56 PM
Sorry Kelly for going so OT http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

I do wonder about Howard though. Sometimes it seems not so much like he's supporting the services, as riding their coat-tails to gain support.

LEBillfish
08-22-2006, 12:02 AM
Who's Howard?................Funny how he's being treated as more important then the men who made it so he could be voted into office huh?

panther3485
08-22-2006, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
Sorry Kelly for going so OT http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

I do wonder about Howard though. Sometimes it seems not so much like he's supporting the services, as riding their coat-tails to gain support.

Yeah, I hear ya, but we must remember he's a POLITICIAN first and foremost. This is part of the game for politicians. If he can 'do some good for the country' and himself at the same time, why pass up the chance?

Different politicians may play different angles, but in the end the game is the same for all of them, I think. Do I sound cynical?

Anyway, no more contemporary politics. I'll 'zip my pie hole' on this now! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

dusta01
08-22-2006, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
Dusta, I live 100m from Hylands Bookshop http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif



probably a good thing i live in perth otherwise i would spend way too much money there. Every time i go to melbourne i spend about 5 hours just browsing in that shop

panther3485
08-22-2006, 12:25 AM
Yeah, dusta01,

I live in Perth too, but used to live in Melbourne and my bank account fell foul of that same shop once or twice.

Now, I occasionally commit similar budgetary sins in 'Boffins' bookshop or 'Perth Hobby Centre' (which has a fair selection of military books as well).


Best regards, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
panther3485

Feathered_IV
08-22-2006, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Who's Howard?................

Hehe. I'm sure he gets that a lot outside of Australia. John Howard is the current Prime Minister. He looks like Mr. Sheen:

http://www.crikey.com.au/sealed/images/2005/09/30-10TJB8EQ200.jpg http://www.crikey.com.au/sealed/images/2005/09/30-10TJB7X3C00.jpg

...But he fancies himself as Winston Churchill.

dusta01
08-22-2006, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by panther3485:
Yeah, dusta01,

I live in Perth too, but used to live in Melbourne and my bank account fell foul of that same shop once or twice.

Now, I occasionally commit similar budgetary sins in 'Boffins' bookshop or 'Perth Hobby Centre' (which has a fair selection of military books as well).


Best regards, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
panther3485

Is it worth my time going in there as i love the range and also the help the old boys give you in Hylands

Ratsack
08-22-2006, 02:17 AM
One of the funniest bumper stickers I've ever seen was on the back of a car in Canberra:

JOHN HUNT IS A COWARD

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Draughluin1
08-22-2006, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Who's Howard?................Funny how he's being treated as more important then the men who made it so he could be voted into office huh?

Yep, you got that right. Now where can I get my hands on that bumper sticker?

panther3485
08-22-2006, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by dusta01:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by panther3485:
Yeah, dusta01,

I live in Perth too, but used to live in Melbourne and my bank account fell foul of that same shop once or twice.

Now, I occasionally commit similar budgetary sins in 'Boffins' bookshop or 'Perth Hobby Centre' (which has a fair selection of military books as well).


Best regards, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
panther3485

Is it worth my time going in there as i love the range and also the help the old boys give you in Hylands </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think Boffins is quite as good as Hylands but it's still good enough to merit some attention if you like specialized books of all kinds (not just military). There's an old guy there named 'Bill' who usually gives very good service and anything that's published and still in print, anywhere in the World, they can get (at a price, of course).

Perth Hobby Centre is good for specialized technical military books relating to the needs of modellers (of which I am one).


Best regards, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
panther3485

Feathered_IV
08-22-2006, 03:40 AM
Its funny how the by-line for Hylands is "A Mans World of Books". Mrs. Feathered just refers to it as "Boys Books"

Its funny to watch the exited blokes flitting from shelf to shelf, trailed by bored-to-death wives and children asking: Can we GO now?