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jayhall0315
07-13-2009, 06:43 PM
Dont know if this will help anyone out (and some of you may have seen it when I posted it over at M4T) but it may be a good read for ya:



How Prop Pitch Really Works in IL2 and Why It is Important

If there is one topic that constantly pops up in IL2 forums, it is that of prop pitch and how to adjust it. Any thread in which this subject appears is often filled by well meaning posters who only help to confuse the matter. I finally got tired of reading bad explanations and decided to write something which I hope will make Prop Pitch crystal clear to any IL2 flier who reads this. So lets get to it:

To understand prop pitch correctly, we need to learn about the 'powerband' of the aircraft engine. Lets take as an example in this discussion, the F4U-D Corsair which has a big honking Pratt and Whitney R-2800-8W engine. As the pistons of that engine cycle up and down, they turn the crankshaft which spins the propeller, which in turn generates thrust. Normally at full throttle, that propeller will spin around at 2700 revolutions per minute (RPMs). This 2700 rpm is normal and healthy for the engine. In fact the engine generates it maximum thrust (and thus level flight speed) at 2700 rpms. If I lower the rpms to say, 2300, I will no longer be getting maximum thrust (and hence speed). Now, you would think, well if 2700 rpms gives me a lot of thrust, then surely, 3200 rpms will give me even more thrust (and hence, speed). Actually, this is not true. If the rpms of the engine raise above 2700 rpms to 3200 rpms, it is exactly like trying to drive a car with manual transmission in 2nd gear at 50 mph. My engine efficiency will actually fall off. So trying to fly a Corsair at 3200 rpms will actually give you less thrust than flying it at 2700 rpms (the exact reason will be at the end of this article). From this, you can set up a nice little graph with rpms on the X axis and thrust on the Y axis. And what you would see is a nice curving line that peaks at 2700 rpms. This is known as a RPM to Thrust diagram (also similar to a RPM to torque plot). So we can say that the engine works best when the propeller is spinning at about 2600 to 2800 revolutions per minute. This is known as the 'powerband' of the Corsair's engine. Not all planes have the same powerband and some may for example give maximum thrust at 3300 rpms while another engine may work best at 2400 rpms. Also the Corsair has a fairly narrow powerband from 2600 to 2800 rpms but other airframes may have a larger powerband from say 2500 to 3000 rpms (on an X-Y plot, the powerband appears to flatten).

The next thing we need to take note of is how the propeller reacts at a fixed throttle level. Lets say I keep my throttle fully maxed at exactly 100 percent (which is how many noobs in IL2 fly anyway) and I do not change it at all. Now, what will happen to the propeller with my throttle fixed ? Well, if you watch your RPM gauge carefully, you will see that as you dive, your propeller RPMs will increase and as you climb, they will decrease. Why is this ? It has to do with the inertia of your airframe and the flow of air over the prop. In a dive you have a gravity assist and the air is hitting the prop faster and the opposite is true as you climb and the speed of the air striking the prop is slower.

And so what happens if you fly many shallow long dives and your RPMs continue to hang at 3000 instead of optimal 2700 for the Corsair ? First off, you will not be getting maximum thrust and second, the extra 300 rpms per minute will cause engine overheating. In fact continually riding above the powerband only produces extra heat and given enough time will kill your engine. Likewise, continually riding around below the powerband means your engine stays cooler but you wont be producing maximum thrust when needed in combat.

So how do we adjust the propeller to give maximum thrust no matter if we are diving or climbing ? (and with the throttle still fixed)

With Prop Pitch of course. We are going to use our ability to govern prop pitch to keep the engine RPMs in that nice narrow power band from 2600 to 2800 RPMs. So how does Prop Pitch accomplish this ? It adjusts the angle at which the blades of the propeller 'bite' into the air. If the angle is increased the propeller will bite more deeply into the air and for one given revolution will push more air. But at the same time, that deeper bite of air also increases resistance which means the propeller slows down. So if I dive without prop pitch, my rpms may quickly move above 3000 and I will actually lose thrust while overheating my engine. With prop pitch, I enter a combat dive and I will move prop pitch down to 80% (this is confusing because the pitch of the blades is increasing but in IL2 by the game's nomenclature, you are lowering prop pitch), and I will get a quick acceleration in speed and my rpms will be closer to 2700. So I am picking up a quick boost of speed, keeping my engine cooler and maintaining my RPMs in the powerband (and keeping maximum thrust). I am also slowly conserving kinetic energy over any opponent who is not using prop pitch (or applying it incorrectly). Likewise if I go into a combat climb, my RPMs will start to drop off so I will raise move prop pitch up to 100% so that the blades of the propeller bite less deeply and my RPMs will move back up to 2700. Of course as I approach the apex of my climb and start to stall out, there will be nothing more I can do. Prop pitch is already raised to its full 100% and there is simply not enough air moving over the prop now (because of gravity and the inertia of the airframe) to generate any more thrust. (Although, some people are advocates of quickly lowering the prop pitch down to say 70% in that last two seconds to help stabilize the stalling characteristics at the apex of the climb, but this depends on airframe used and stall characteristics)

Now you can see the main tenet of prop pitch in IL2: Prop pitch used correctly acts as a governor for engine RPMs to keep you in the powerband.

Other questions people have, are how much prop pitch should I apply and for how long ? That is more difficult because prop pitch is one of the few 'messed up' flight characteristics of IL2. With complex engine management (CEM) enabled, the engine will more accurately model real life but prop pitch still does not respond as it would in a real airframe (or as powerfully either). Generally speaking you will apply lower prop pitch in a dive until you see your RPMs go back down into the powerband. And in a combat climb, you will raise prop pitch until you see the RPMs climb back up into the powerband (and hold them there until stalling starts when possible). Typically, for example with the Corsair, you will only need to lower PP to about 70% for one to three seconds in a dive before you move back down into the powerband. And in a combat climb, you can raise prop pitch up to 100% and keep it there.

And what about cruising to a combat area. For this, it is probably a good idea to keep PP in the 90% range. If you keep it lower at say 70% like some recommend, and then you get bounced or surprised, you are too far from the powerband to get back up to optimal thrust in time to ward off attacks. However, at 90%, you are still keeping your engine cool and can move right back up into the powerband within 3 seconds or so, if an enemy surprises you.

Hopefully Prop Pitch is getting much clearer now. So why did I take time to even go thru this stuff ?

Well, what if I told you I can defeat almost any.... and I do mean almost any open cockpit flier on Hyperlobby fairly easily ?

You would surely say, yeah right, …... this dude is full of sh!t. He been toking on the ganja weed too long.

But think about it for a minute. What is it that open cockpit guys cant see (when they are flying without the cockpit) ? …. you guessed it.... BINGO!!! ... No RPM gauge ! They have no idea at what RPM their engine is at during combat because their cockpit is turned off. They can tell from the engine sounds if they are about in the right range but this is still not precise enough. They cant tell if they are in the powerband or not, they just have to take their best guess (In fact many could care less, and I would guess, only about 5% of open pit guys even know how to use PP in combat). So lets say, my adversary and I start out in a duel with F4U-D Corsairs at equal altitudes and speeds in an open pit server. As my opponent switches off his cockpit to have a wider view, I keep mine on. We then pass on the first merge and I carefully watch my RPM gauge and keep myself in the powerband by adjusting PP when needed. As he is busy chasing me and calling me a coward for not turn fighting with him, I am slowly making passes on him and building kinetic energy in each pass, since I am flying much closer to the powerband than he is. At the end of each pass I transform this conserved kinetic energy into potential energy as I climb. Within three to five passes, I have pulled above him by 700 meters all due to flying in the powerband while he did not. And now the fight is over..... he just does not realize it yet. I now switch my cockpit off as well to get a clearer view for lead shooting, and start to remove his wings. Unless I make a bad mistake and give up my altitude advantage the fight is already over.

I also use the same tactic often against closed cockpit and full real pilots. The better full real pilots know how to read their instruments and are also flying in the powerband so I have to make other adjustments but you get the picture of why this Prop Pitch stuff can become so important. Even over other good full real guys, I can often build an advantage in altitude and potential energy within the first few minutes of the fight and then it is over for them.

This is one reason I advocate strongly for any flier transitioning to closed cockpit. Because closed pit forces you to become aware of, or take into account many factors that open pit guys totally disregard. Once you start to factor these complexities in, going back to lesser opponents (even in a full real server) becomes easy.

Hope this helps you guys out who may be confused on the prop pitch stuff.

Jay (flying online as WhistlinggDeath)

The beauty of the Universe can best be understood by learning the language that Mother Nature speaks in, …... mathematics.

(The answer to why a prop moving at 3200 rpms can generate less thrust than the exact same prop moving at say, 2700 rpms has to do with the Navier Stokes equations and wind shear turbulence over the propellor, which is more detailed than I want to go into here because the mathematics will confuse many)

(As another note, for any RPM to Thrust plots where there is only one global maximum (which is true for single engine prop fighters), then where the partial derivative PT/PRPM = 0 is the optimal powerband)

Woke_Up_Dead
07-13-2009, 07:49 PM
Good explanation. Now the next logical questions: how do I find the optimum power band for the engine of a given plane in IL2, and what's this "prop-pitch trick/exploit" for better acceleration that I keep hearing about?

jayhall0315
07-14-2009, 12:54 AM
On the earlier versions of the game, the CDs evidently included some engine performance charts with the powerbands noted. I believe if you look for this data Woke_Up you can find it at Mission4Today.com in the downloads section.

Tricks to using prop-pitch are often proprietary to the flier and hard won thru trial and error, so they wont be easily given out. There are some instances where PP really helps out in tricky combat situations and you will have to go thru trail and error to discover them.

mortoma
07-14-2009, 03:18 AM
I never use PP and don't find it increases speed no matter the altitude or condition. So I use 100% all the time except for acceleration. If you get slow for whatever reason and wish to pick up speed again, if you reduce PP down to say, 80% for a few seconds, you'll find that it can really help acceleration in most cases. And in many cases repeating that process a few times helps until you reach top speed. But I go down in PP a little less each time as I get up to top speed.

But as far as helping you go faster top speed at various altitudes compared to 100% PP, it does nothing, never has, never will. It's an illusion in this sim. PP in this sim simply does not work as it does in real life. Comparing the way PP works in real life to the way it works in the sim is silly. I have time in a Cessna Cardinal and a Beech Bonanza. Although most of my time is in fixed prop planes.

K_Freddie
07-14-2009, 03:40 AM
This is what I do'th..
With a ME109 or FW190, I'd set manual PP, so that the revs would stabilise about 2600rpm. Leave it there and switch over to auto PP.

In combat, during the climb I'd switch over to manual, when my revs hit around 2300, and leave it there until down in the dive when the revs topped ~2800 I'd switch over to auto again.

It's a simple 2 speed PP control and works nicely when doing lots of climbs and dives/yoyos. You can hang by your prop a leeetle bit longer.

When running away, I'd close my radiator, and set throttles to ~55% and PP ~60%, resulting in faster speeds than 100% throttle and PP.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

ROXunreal
07-14-2009, 04:16 AM
I play open pit and use PP in the FW 190 Antons, 85-90% for cruising, 80% for diving, 100% for zoom climbing, 80% shortly after zoom climb when I'm out of energy and then back to 85/90 for cruising, works good for me. I also use 100% when I'm climbing, but I climb in mini zoom climbs, as in, fly level at around 85-90% until I get above 400kph, then pull up, PP to 100% and use my speed to climb in an about 40° angle until I get down to ~260kph when I drop PP to 85 and go level again, and then repeat.

Any other advice on Anton PP management is welcomed. Also I'd love some PP tips for the Ki84 as that's the plane I fly most after the 190

jayhall0315
07-14-2009, 05:35 AM
Well Mortoma, at least you dumped the, "I'll keep my money, my guns and my freedom and you keep the change" comment. LOL

I bet you would fall over if a little black kid came up to you from Kinshasa and pushed your gun aside to give you a hug.

DKoor
07-14-2009, 06:06 AM
Hey Jay... you said well. But.
What works in RL doesn't always work in the game and vice versa.
Therefore you need to make tests of things.

What kid of tests did you do for F4U-1D in this regard and can we see the tracks/results?

Bearcat99
07-14-2009, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
I never use PP and don't find it increases speed no matter the altitude or condition. So I use 100% all the time except for acceleration. If you get slow for whatever reason and wish to pick up speed again, if you reduce PP down to say, 80% for a few seconds, you'll find that it can really help acceleration in most cases. And in many cases repeating that process a few times helps until you reach top speed. But I go down in PP a little less each time as I get up to top speed.

But as far as helping you go faster top speed at various altitudes compared to 100% PP, it does nothing, never has, never will. It's an illusion in this sim. PP in this sim simply does not work as it does in real life. Comparing the way PP works in real life to the way it works in the sim is silly. I have time in a Cessna Cardinal and a Beech Bonanza. Although most of my time is in fixed prop planes.


How Prop Pitch works in IL2 and Why It is Important

Then you are not using it right. PP will definitely increase your speed.. but you have to drop it in small increments and be patient. You will go faster and your engine will last longer at 90/90 (throttle & pitch) that at 100/100 in any plane in this sim. Guaranteed. I use PP to slow down as well.. if I am landing too hot I use it.. often to stay in formation I set my throtttle at whatever gets me there and use pitch from then on out...


Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Well Mortoma, at least you dumped the, "I'll keep my money, my guns and my freedom and you keep the change" comment. LOL
I bet you would fall over if a little black kid came up to you from Kinshasa and pushed your gun aside to give you a hug.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif Stay on topic jay... I have my own opinions of mort's politics .. but it does not belong anywhere in this thread...

jayhall0315
07-14-2009, 06:27 AM
Dkoor - Read the article and try what I wrote down. You will see that not only will your Corsair engine stay cooler but that you can keep it in the powerband more of the time. As for a track, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL ......its pretty self explanatory, so hopefully no need to make a track and post it to Youtube. My name is not Wanderfalke for goodness sakes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Bearcat - It was hard to resist when I saw that diversity line. As I just started my real vacation, and if I have to go on a virtual one as well, ... no biggie.

Bearcat99
07-14-2009, 06:40 AM
No... no vacation in the works.... just a heads up.........

BillSwagger
07-14-2009, 06:53 AM
what about constant speed props??

It is my understanding that the Corsair and many other planes have this feature which keeps the RPMs in the power band automatically.

I fly the F4U, and P-47 often, and even at 100% prop my RPM is where it should be, as you indicated.

I find that i lower prop pitch to reduce drag in a dive, more so than to keep the engine in its power band.

The only time it over revs is if i make a sudden increase in throttle, or if i am nearing a stall. In which case i lower it, and i can hang in a stall for longer if needed.
This idea of power band, isnt as noticeable on the Corsair as it is on say, a Mustang or a Tempest.

I find that boosts on some engines will cause it to over rev, even with a constant speed prop, so using prop pitch helps control that.

DKoor
07-14-2009, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Dkoor - Read the article and try what I wrote down. You will see that not only will your Corsair engine stay cooler but that you can keep it in the powerband more of the time. As for a track, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL ......its pretty self explanatory, so hopefully no need to make a track and post it to Youtube. My name is not Wanderfalke for goodness sakes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You see I have nothing against you, nor your claims per se.
But if you come to forum and claim something at least you need some reasonable info to back it up.

I kindly asked you for a track or at least some further info on why do you think that, for your example, a Corsair will have more energy if you persist in 2700rpms than at 100% prop pitch.
All I got from you is a weak joke attempt. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

I am talking about the game. We can all take books into our hands and do the reading but RL is not a IL-2 Sturmovik 1946.
Not to mention that you didn't much of a homework there either;

Originally posted by BillSwagger:
what about constant speed props??

It is my understanding that the Corsair and many other planes have this feature which keeps the RPMs in the power band automatically. ...as Bill indicated if you dive or climb the Corsair it will keep an optimum rpm, so how you managed to overcome your opponent by manually changing your prop pitch in order to adjust the RPMs is a bit of a mystery http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .


Anyway here is the situation... I made few quick tests and here are the results:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> 100% pp 90% pp 2700rpm
4500 561 558 562
4000 656 653 657
3500 727 723 727
3000 780 775 780
2500 821 816 821
2000 851 846 851
1500 873 867 873
1000 889 876 (plane broke) 889</pre>

I dived F4U-1D at an angle of 20° from 5000m with initial speed of 400kph to about 1000m; couldn't push it much further because plane started to disintegrate.
Observations:
Manual prop pitch changes in order to hold the 2700RPM are complicated until Corsair builds speed after which point RPMs are quite stable.
The same results are obtained when diving in the exact 2700RPM regime and on 100% prop pitch regime (in which case RPM slowly drops from around 2770 towards 2700).

BillSwagger
07-14-2009, 07:37 AM
Any thread in which this subject appears is often filled by well meaning posters who only help to confuse the matter.


yeah..
i'm more confused now, though.

SeaFireLIV
07-14-2009, 10:31 AM
I haven`t read the whole thread. but I find prop pitch useful for extending fuel use and slowing down in an emergency.

M_Gunz
07-14-2009, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
what about constant speed props??

It is my understanding that the Corsair and many other planes have this feature which keeps the RPMs in the power band automatically.

I fly the F4U, and P-47 often, and even at 100% prop my RPM is where it should be, as you indicated.

I find that i lower prop pitch to reduce drag in a dive, more so than to keep the engine in its power band.

The only time it over revs is if i make a sudden increase in throttle, or if i am nearing a stall. In which case i lower it, and i can hang in a stall for longer if needed.
This idea of power band, isnt as noticeable on the Corsair as it is on say, a Mustang or a Tempest.

I find that boosts on some engines will cause it to over rev, even with a constant speed prop, so using prop pitch helps control that.

+1 -- there were many different prop control systems modeled in IL2. Curtiss Electric was used in P-40's and P-39's
to mention 2 and the P-39s control systems evolved. There's hydraulic prop control modeled, there's the electric system
in the 109's and the ability to cut that out and control the prop directly that takes some attention but can work great.

Only manual prop on most US fighters is to choose desired RPM. If you are running at reduced power to save fuel on a
mission (as opposed to DF) then you definitely want to lower your RPMs, you will go faster and your engine will run cooler.

Your engine drives the prop and the if the engine begins to slow then the prop flattens, takes less of a bite out of the air
so the engine can maintain the desired RPM. At 70% power I find the speed at 100% RPM is less than at 70% RPM.

I can control my landing approach speed by keeping RPM 100% and varying power all the way down.

No41Sqn_Banks
07-14-2009, 12:40 PM
When you apply 100% RPM the constant speed unit keeps the RPM within the limits that makes the engine to produce the highest power.

There is no need to be able to go above that RPM area, therefore 100% RPM keeps the engine within that best highest region.
Of course RPM will increase within a dive, but only for the short time until the constant speed unit reduces RPM.

jayhall0315
07-14-2009, 02:23 PM
Dkoor - With the F4U Corsair, the prop pitch changes you make for combat purposes are more of a short duration for quick accelerations than say for the P51 in-game. As you noted yourself, manual prop pitch is a little touchy until your speed builds and then it becomes less of a factor. So, can you adjust your prop pitch at the margins of combat (especially low speeds) to increase performance over an opponent. This is particularly useful in conserving more kinetic energy than your opponent. Practice with it a bit and watch how you can build a lead over an opponent.

Banks - What you stated is correct and that is the answer to your question Swagger.

Gunz, if I understand you correctly (and I may not), as your engine slows it does not flatten or take less bite. The RPMs just drop but unless you change prop pitch, there is no adjustment to the 'bite'.

AllorNothing117
07-14-2009, 03:09 PM
"Lets say I keep my throttle fully maxed at exactly 100 percent (which is how many noobs in IL2 fly anyway)"

This interests me... It sounds like thats what your recomeding... Keep your power at full and adjust the PP to change the Revs. Surely doing both and once would be terribly confusing? I can't imagine myself looking at my gauges anymore than I already do and not getting bounced. Wouldn't it be counter intuitive to adjust PP and throttle? Surely you keep one constant or have a 2 speed system type thing for cruising/combat? I think allot of thought went into this and I'm sure you mean well, but some of the rash statments make you sound like, well... I don't wana call names, try not to insult the people your trying to help, I'm pretty new and I'm not 100% on what throtle/PP to use so I apretiate the help. Seems abit like your having a go at the "noobs" on hyperlobby who can't fly propaly but similtainiously trying to help them.

jayhall0315
07-14-2009, 04:04 PM
Gradually AllorNothing, prop pitch tactics will come to you. In the beginning, to minimize a three variable (x = prop RPMs, y = power and z = Prop pitch) problem for explanation purposes only, I have held throttle constant so that you can see the deep relation between the powerband and PP. As you build on this though, you will quickly learn to adjust throttle and prop pitch together.

Make fun of noobs ?.... no (after all, I have written three guides for them)... but rather, help to correct what I see as some bad practices online. Also, I fight many duels where after the opponent has been defeated three or four times, they cry cheat . I understand, I used to feel this way everytime I fought a really high level guy. So, I thought I would illustrate just one tactic I tend to use to get the upper hand against any open pit pilot and many closed pit pilots as well. Try it and you will see it works well.

Muddy17
07-14-2009, 04:57 PM
Interesting..
All I do is have increase and decrease PP maped to Joy and in a dive in combat,,if I really need more speed then take it down to about 85 ish, when done diving back up to 95ish or 100 for a climb,,
This works fine for me as I get the burst of speed in a dive and power in a climb but as for what the gauge says ,??? could not be bothered to look if the aircraft is responding as I would like.

Muddy17
07-14-2009, 04:59 PM
Also do agree that full power at 95PP stays cooler for longer and mayby a little more speed in level flight but not to much.

BillSwagger
07-14-2009, 05:00 PM
Jay,

I value your advice.
There are two planes that i would like to learn to fly better, cause i see things in game, that i just can't seem to do. I'll go back and look at the tracks, and see what i can do to improve.


How can I adjust prop pitch, to make it so i can accelerate from near stall speed to 600kph in only a couple seconds with out having to dive straight down, of course. Level flight, or very shallow dive ...using a spitfire??
I used to think it was warping, or another element but i'm glad you explained that it must be prop pitch.
Ive seen people do this, to my amazement, but i guess i just don't have the knack for prop pitch, do I??

Also,
I've hovered over 109s that show they are 3.00+(distance) or more lower than me doing roughly the same speed maybe a little slower, then sudden climb so they are over 1.00 above me.

Wow!! I'm so amazed....i wish i knew how to use prop pitch.

Even if i win, though, i still can't help but cry cheat
Cause, it just seems fake to me, and even with a win or two under my belt, i leave the game.


I think i've been in a couple duels with you, you are good pilot. (Whistling Death ??)
I think this is a fairly simple game to master, but difficult to perfect.

Good opponents who play fair can only make the game better, and its good to see pilots like yourself who are so willing to help.


http://edubuzz.org/blogs/advhi.../derive1stmotion.jpg (http://edubuzz.org/blogs/advhigherthings/files/2008/09/derive1stmotion.jpg)


I'm not sure how this ties into the conversation, but i thought it might make me look smarter than you guys think i am.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

ElAurens
07-14-2009, 05:21 PM
Prop pitch in the game is in no way representative of what it is in real life.

I see no mention of manifold pressure readings in this discussion.

Imagine that.

What jay is talking about and what BillSwagger has seen online is the prop pitch exploit in use.

If you took a real aircraft and left the throttle at 100% and pulled the pitch way back, your manifold pressure would soar above it's redline and you would very quickly damage your engine.

That does not happen in the game, and it's why you see all manner of aircraft doing impossible feats.

Enjoy your little cheat boys.

BTW, when Oleg saw some of the Russian teams using this at an IL2 tournament in China a few years back he was shocked.

It is not intended to be used in this manner, but cheaters will always find a way.

BillSwagger
07-14-2009, 05:25 PM
an exploit??
how does this exploit work??

Sucks too, cause if you are a decent pilot, you might have to work harder to win, and if you do, then people will call you a cheat.

WTE_Galway
07-14-2009, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Prop pitch in the game is in no way representative of what it is in real life.

I see no mention of manifold pressure readings in this discussion.

Imagine that.

What jay is talking about and what BillSwagger has seen online is the prop pitch exploit in use.

If you took a real aircraft and left the throttle at 100% and pulled the pitch way back, your manifold pressure would soar above it's redline and you would very quickly damage your engine.

That does not happen in the game, and it's why you see all manner of aircraft doing impossible feats.

Enjoy your little cheat boys.

BTW, when Oleg saw some of the Russian teams using this at an IL2 tournament in China a few years back he was shocked.

It is not intended to be used in this manner, but cheaters will always find a way.

In real life especially dangerous with supercharging and turbocharging. Hence waste gates.

Freiwillige
07-14-2009, 07:29 PM
I've hovered over 109s that show they are 3.00+(distance) or more lower than me doing roughly the same speed maybe a little slower, then sudden climb so they are over 1.00 above me.

You do realise that the P-47 in all its glory is a complete dog in the climb both in sim and reality. Once they put the paddle props on them it got better but still nothing competitive to the 109 in a climb.

Now another question about prop pitch, Altitude.
It would seem to me that as the air thins resistance to the prop decreases and a sharper prop angle would be needed to increase resistance to keep the motor from over revving.

Over revving while is not much of a problem in the sim in real life it was a motor killer and those without constant speed props had to be very careful!

M_Gunz
07-14-2009, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
Gunz, if I understand you correctly (and I may not), as your engine slows it does not flatten or take less bite. The RPMs just drop but unless you change prop pitch, there is no adjustment to the 'bite'.

If your plane has a CSP (Constant Speed Prop) then the prop will adjust to let the engine keep RPMs. Make no mistake
about that, the prop changes angle in order for the system to keep the desired RPMs set by the pilot. That's why it
is a Constant Speed Prop.

If I command 100% RPMs and lower the throttle then the prop will flatten out to stay at 100% RPMs.
Any time I have less power than it takes to drive me at the speed I am going, any time the prop is going to slow down,
the prop will flatten out as the way to keep those RPMs up. If I lower the prop speed then the prop can again run at
a more efficient AOA, get more lift as thrust and run my below 100% powered plane faster than at 100% RPM.

Depending on the mechanism used the reaction may be delayed more or less, the electrics I have seen plans of have more
slop than the hydraulic one. The electric one works like a thermostat with set point and bounds contacts.

Take a 109 and run it in manual prop pitch. You change the pitch by hand only. Note that what RPM you end up with
for any given pitch and power setting depends on the speed you are going. As the plane goes faster, the RPM will
increase and the pitch must be lowered to prevent overspeeding the engine. Try taking off at 100% power, 2500 RPM
just after tail-up and not changing power or pitch while holding alt and getting to over 270kph.

CSP is not like that at all. It adjusts the prop to keep the RPMs steady, within tolerance.

Any study of prop pitch should begin with "what system does this plane use?" since some do have differences.

M_Gunz
07-14-2009, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Prop pitch in the game is in no way representative of what it is in real life.

I see no mention of manifold pressure readings in this discussion.

Imagine that.

What jay is talking about and what BillSwagger has seen online is the prop pitch exploit in use.

If you took a real aircraft and left the throttle at 100% and pulled the pitch way back, your manifold pressure would soar above it's redline and you would very quickly damage your engine.

That does not happen in the game, and it's why you see all manner of aircraft doing impossible feats.

Enjoy your little cheat boys.

BTW, when Oleg saw some of the Russian teams using this at an IL2 tournament in China a few years back he was shocked.

It is not intended to be used in this manner, but cheaters will always find a way.

So I can run 100% RPM at 110% power plus WEP but don't dare run 90% RPM at 100% power? Which has more MP?

How much throttle and RPM I can use depends on the load I have put on the engine, my speed has some effect on that.
If I am in a sustained climb it is different than if I am in a shallow dive.

We don't have shock cooling either and yes, the engines don't blow as easily or for a lot of things they should but
those engines aren't made of tin and did take more stress than your average modern GA piston engine.

Art-J
07-14-2009, 11:33 PM
I agree with Gunz.

Jayhall, I don't quite understand why You talk about three variables (RPM, power and pitch), while most of the planes in the game are featured with CSP units, which reduce number of vairables to two - manifold pressure and prop RPMs. The CSP governor changes the pitch automatically to keep engine and prop running at certain speed (+/- some tolerance) and we cannot do any strictly manual adjustments to the pitch (and don't need to, for that matter, this is why CSP was invented for after all).

The "three variables" description is very true and indeed important for guys who fly German inline-engined planes with auto-pitch turned off, but not exactly for everyone else.

Cheers - Art

WTE_Galway
07-15-2009, 12:01 AM
Part of what is confusing people is they have been reading up on modern CSP's and they are a different thing altogether. In modern aircraft the purpose is to maintain an optimum manifold pressure.

in particular ...

- Kommandogerät (German auto setting) is not actually a CSP

- turning off Kommandogerät in a 109 generally gives you a VPP (variable pitch prop)

wheras ..

- turning off Kommandogerät in a 190 (at least in game) reverts to something similiar to a CSP

late war US planes are different again.


There are dozens of past threads on this issue.

Freiwillige
07-15-2009, 12:21 AM
Kommandogerät is a system used on Fw-190's. It is an engine management system designed by BMW for use on the 801 series motor. The idea behind it is that traditionally a pilot had to worry about many variables to get the best performance from his machine. Prop pitch, Fuel Mixture, supercharger gear shifting, Throttle. The Kommandogerät system was very advanced and took care of all but the throttle so the pilot had a far reduced work load. The manual prop pitch setting was available but pilots were told only to use it if the Kommandogerät was damaged or malfunctioning and that was just to limp home as the aircraft would be in no way seriously combat capable.

Messerschmitt had a similar device they just called the black box and worked under similar principles.

The Americans had three prop designes common in WWII. They are Hamilton Standard, Curtiss Electric and Aeroproducts Hydraulic.

More info on these designes and how they work here
http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/ground/prop.htm (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/%7Edelta6/ground/prop.htm)

BillSwagger
07-15-2009, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I've hovered over 109s that show they are 3.00+(distance) or more lower than me doing roughly the same speed maybe a little slower, then sudden climb so they are over 1.00 above me.

You do realise that the P-47 in all its glory is a complete dog in the climb both in sim and reality. Once they put the paddle props on them it got better but still nothing competitive to the 109 in a climb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not new to me, and has nothing to do with what i'm referring to. These aren't slow climbs to altitude. Although, power to weight can be a big influence when fighting in close quaters.

To clarify what i'm referring to, again, i'm above a 109 (3 kilomteres, aka 10,000ft) He is not in a zoom, or dive and is doing about the same speed as me. 400kph-450kph....
He then points his nose up 45-70 degrees, and with in a few seconds is at my altitude and still climbing.

(this was a team mate, mind you)

when fighting in close quarters, i rely on the zoom climb of the P-47 which is far superior to the zoom performance of any plane in the game (except maybe the Tempest). I'm used to relying on such tactics, and quite experienced at working a 109 (or a spitfire) into a stall.
These tactics dont always go as planned, but because the positioning of the aircraft and my experience with the tactics it is much easier to notice when something is off. (all due respect to good pilots)


I will also say that it is something i use to rarely see. Maybe i encountered this phenomenon once a week, out of the few hours i play online. For the past month, it is something that i see just about every time i hop online, in some form or another.
It appears to be the same handful of players, but on some servers it is almost common place. Most players (and good pilots) are still playing with some level of dignity for the game. If there are only 20 players on a server, and 4 or 5 of them are uhhhhh dare i say, cheating, then the problem can appear more widespread than it is.
Usually a game developer wants their online cheat rates below half a percent. To have over a 1 percent cheat rate, can ruin a game.


Some people might argue its not cheating.
I have no idea how its done, then. If someone could show me how, that we be great.
Screen shots, tracks are nice, but maybe you could also video your control movements. A long drawn out description of what i already do, is of no help to me.


Note: a mod that manages the engine for you is a cheat.

Freiwillige
07-15-2009, 12:32 AM
Sorry bill I thought you meant 300 yards below not 3 kilometers!

Anyhow more info on prop workings and a great read!

http://www.worldaccessnet.com/...ta6/ground/prop1.htm (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/%7Edelta6/ground/prop1.htm)

jayhall0315
07-15-2009, 12:59 AM
.... remember when I wrote at the beginning of this thread that prop pitch threads are often littered with well meaning guys who are missing the main points and often get confused by irrelevant material .......deja vu

BillSwagger
07-15-2009, 01:48 AM
have you ever had someone pee on your leg and try to tell you its water?

http://www.fasthack.com/images/features/2244/hb-standoff.jpg

na85
07-15-2009, 04:49 AM
.... remember when I wrote at the beginning of this thread that prop pitch threads are often littered with well meaning guys who are missing the main points and often get confused by irrelevant material .......deja vu

Actually I'd say you missed some of the main points yourself that constitute some essential basic knowledge that a newbie really ought to know to understand CEM.

And why is it you can't write a guide without some sort of snide editorial in it?


...which is how many noobs in IL2 fly anyway...



So, I thought I would illustrate just one tactic I tend to use to get the upper hand against any open pit pilot and many closed pit pilots as well

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Have you actually flown against EVERY open pit pilot? That's how you know you can get the hand against ANYbody in an open pit server? Megalol.

Redwulf__26
07-15-2009, 05:22 AM
Navier Stokes equations!!!, don't forget Bernoullis Principle and Newtons Third Law while you at it.

Usualy prop pitch is talked about in terms of "Course" and "Fine", and controls are marked as such, however some aircraft such as the Harvard (Texan) the pitch lever is marked as "Propeller RPM" with "Decrease" and "Increase".
I can't fly on open cockpit servers anymore with all those arrows pointing at me and meaningless gauges.

JV44, The Redwulf Squadron (http://www.jv44redwulf.de/)

jayhall0315
07-15-2009, 05:45 AM
Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">.... remember when I wrote at the beginning of this thread that prop pitch threads are often littered with well meaning guys who are missing the main points and often get confused by irrelevant material .......deja vu

Actually I'd say you missed some of the main points yourself that constitute some essential basic knowledge that a newbie really ought to know to understand CEM.

And why is it you can't write a guide without some sort of snide editorial in it?


...which is how many noobs in IL2 fly anyway...



So, I thought I would illustrate just one tactic I tend to use to get the upper hand against any open pit pilot and many closed pit pilots as well

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Have you actually flown against EVERY open pit pilot? That's how you know you can get the hand against ANYbody in an open pit server? Megalol. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are welcome to totally disregard what I wrote at the beginning of this thread. Might help some guys out.... might not. If it does not, sorry for that. Feel free to add in extra details that may help guys out.

Nothing snide about saying many new guys ride with throttle maxed out, or maxed out most of the time. Its true. You can see this very quickly if you put them in a airframe where the engine will burn up before they run out of 25% fuel, like some of the early Bf 109s etc.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
And yep, I have pretty much faced almost every open pit guy of worth. But you are welcome to send more my way when I get back from vacation. I am on most nights between 9 - 11 PM PST. I love good long bloody fights against the best, so send em to me.

Redwulf - Good addition but the ellipitical forms of Navier Stokes with finite Fourier series terms, encapsulates Bernoulli's Principle or Newton's Third Law already. (actually the eigenvectors of Bernoullis are the exact same as the closed case for parabolic Navier Stokes)

Bearcat99
07-15-2009, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Prop pitch in the game is in no way representative of what it is in real life.
I see no mention of manifold pressure readings in this discussion.
Imagine that.
What jay is talking about and what BillSwagger has seen online is the prop pitch exploit in use.
If you took a real aircraft and left the throttle at 100% and pulled the pitch way back, your manifold pressure would soar above it's redline and you would very quickly damage your engine.
That does not happen in the game, and it's why you see all manner of aircraft doing impossible feats.
Enjoy your little cheat boys.
BTW, when Oleg saw some of the Russian teams using this at an IL2 tournament in China a few years back he was shocked.
It is not intended to be used in this manner, but cheaters will always find a way.

Cheaters? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif C'mon ... that's a bit strong man. That is enough of that.

Using a feature that is available to everyone who has pitch modeled to a slider that is not a mod and not a hack is not a cheat .. an exploit maybe... but to sit there and insult everyone in this thread who uses pitch is a real undeserved slap in the face and I for one do not appreciate it. You are one of the longstanding members of this community El.. and I have a great deal of respect for you.. but you have a way of tossing around your opinions like they are gospel and slapping labels on people that smack of such arrogance and self righteousness as to be sometimes nauseating. Get a friggin grip man.

Look boyos... PP as modelled in the sim is not what it is in reality.. I know you all know that but sometimes t kills me in these discussions because folks drag oyut the RL facts etc.. the bottom line in this sim is.. you can squeeze more speed out of your plane with PP no matter what type of plane you fly.. You can also stretch your fuel and extend the life of your engine if you have one with manual pitch the trade off is if you don't know what you are doing you can wreck your engine a lot faster.... The best way to fully "get it" is to just try it... at different altitudes and in differnt planes...

Gadje
07-15-2009, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
BTW, when Oleg saw some of the Russian teams using this at an IL2 tournament in China a few years back he was shocked.

It is not intended to be used in this manner, but cheaters will always find a way.

That was fixed in a patch years ago http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif. It was an exploit for 109's switching between manual and auto that gave a boost in performance in a climb. No such advantage exists now.

The players at that tournament all knew about it and agreed to use it in the competition(check with your old squadmates). Oleg fixed it thereafter.

No big deal and no witches to burn. Go put your pitchfork down now and stop trying to frighten the peasants.

DKoor
07-15-2009, 07:45 AM
3 pages and we are still pretty much at square one.
All these discussions are meaningless to newcomers who ought to learn something.
Well maybe not fully meaningless as they see now that they can gain something from prop pitch manipulating but are unsure what.

And this thread doesn't help them at all. So far.

If there was info about say F4U in this thread and how to manipulate prop pitch on that plane in order to gain something useful out of it then that would be nice. Data, supporting tracks with tests, actual combat advantages of manual prop pitch manipulation etc. would also be nice.
But... I'm afraid that no one can really claim any combat advantages on prop pitch manipulation on F4U with empirical data (tracks - proofs).
AFAIK it is quite simple... with prop pitch other than 100% your fighter will be slower, will have lower RoC, will be slower in dive, will retain energy worse, will overheat slower, will <span class="ev_code_red">probably</span> have greater range (haven't actually tested the range with custom prop pitches)...
I am welcoming ANY proofs that will show otherwise http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

And one another thing... who cares about real life, that discussions are worthless if people are not willing to do the reading about the specific planes themselves.
People that know a bit more about issue will notice that this whole thing doesn't really work as in the real life, so why insisting on constant comparisons is beyond my comprehension.

DKoor
07-15-2009, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by Gadje:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
BTW, when Oleg saw some of the Russian teams using this at an IL2 tournament in China a few years back he was shocked.

It is not intended to be used in this manner, but cheaters will always find a way.

That was fixed in a patch years ago http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif. It was an exploit for 109's switching between manual and auto that gave a boost in performance in a climb. No such advantage exists now.

The players at that tournament all knew about it and agreed to use it in the competition(check with your old squadmates). Oleg fixed it thereafter.

No big deal and no witches to burn. Go put your pitchfork down now and stop trying to frighten the peasants. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm afraid that situation isn't such bright Gadje.
You are right when you say that 109 was "corrected" some time ago (not sure if corrected is a correct term). But anyhow 109's prop pitch cannot be used as it was used before for "monster" hang on the prop.
But you are wrong when you say that prop pitch cannot be cheated with... for instance take the F4U for a spin in level flight, set prop pitch and throttle at 80%.
Now wait until your speed stabilizes... now watch the RPM gauge and set your prop pitch at 100%.
Wait until your RPM reach 2700 (it will reach exactly 2700 and stabilize there); as soon as it reach 2700 switch back the pp to 80%.
Quickly check out the comic speed gauge (TAS).
Tell me what you see http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .
I can't be sure but don't think that devs intended it to be that way.

And it's pretty much the only combat prop pitch "advantage" you can have over the other player in the same aircraft.
I don't know about others but I call that a cheat solely because I believe that most people don't know about that and also I believe that most of those who know about it do not actually use it in combat (including me).

deepo_HP
07-15-2009, 08:44 AM
although i don't consider it a 'cheat', but rather an exploit, i agree with dkoor.
switching back and forth between 100/auto and a distinct setting of pitch - depending on airplane - will show in some unexpected speed-change. the rhythm has to change, depending on the actual speed, but nevertheless can result in better acceleration than with constant (or gradually changed) pitch - i have no real clue, if it gives a higher max-speed. i think, it works also well on 109s still.

it is a pity, but for sure not a 'cheat'. a 'cheat' by definition is executed by triggering behaviour, which is not included in the native game. an exploit on the other hand is exactly what dkoor means: (ab-)using probably unintended behaviour, which is not known to all.
i think, it is important to differ between these, as a 'cheat' always need the intention to use and also some kind of modification. an exploit can simply be 'discovered' and not everybody has the knowledge to realise it as unintended by the developer. basically a 'cheat' is solely the user's responsibility, an exploit in first order the developer's.

i think, it could be corrected, if there were no button for 'auto/manual'-pitch, in the way, that only a stepwise (maybe delayed) change would be possible. fast switching in 109s should be not possible, at least there should be such a delay for back to auto, that the engine would overrev, before achieving auto-pitch again.

BillSwagger
07-15-2009, 10:03 AM
i understand the difference between a cheat and an exploit.

Anyhow, that all makes sense, with the prop pitch.....i did every thing you described DeKoor, and i noticed no huge gain in speed.
Maybe there is a step you left out.


Anyhow, getting my 109 to climb 10k at a 45-70 degree pitch in only a matter of seconds requires more than this exploit, right??

Unless you have some auto configuration that pops all those commands in nice and rapidly so you can do it over and over, but i still dont see how you could pump your self up in the air over 12k, with out losing any speed.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

BillSwagger
07-15-2009, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">.... remember when I wrote at the beginning of this thread that prop pitch threads are often littered with well meaning guys who are missing the main points and often get confused by irrelevant material .......deja vu

Actually I'd say you missed some of the main points yourself that constitute some essential basic knowledge that a newbie really ought to know to understand CEM.

And why is it you can't write a guide without some sort of snide editorial in it?


...which is how many noobs in IL2 fly anyway...



So, I thought I would illustrate just one tactic I tend to use to get the upper hand against any open pit pilot and many closed pit pilots as well

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Have you actually flown against EVERY open pit pilot? That's how you know you can get the hand against ANYbody in an open pit server? Megalol. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are welcome to totally disregard what I wrote at the beginning of this thread. Might help some guys out.... might not. If it does not, sorry for that. Feel free to add in extra details that may help guys out.

Nothing snide about saying many new guys ride with throttle maxed out, or maxed out most of the time. Its true. You can see this very quickly if you put them in a airframe where the engine will burn up before they run out of 25% fuel, like some of the early Bf 109s etc.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
And yep, I have pretty much faced almost every open pit guy of worth. But you are welcome to send more my way when I get back from vacation. I am on most nights between 9 - 11 PM PST. I love good long bloody fights against the best, so send em to me.

Redwulf - Good addition but the ellipitical forms of Navier Stokes with finite Fourier series terms, encapsulates Bernoulli's Principle or Newton's Third Law already. (actually the eigenvectors of Bernoullis are the exact same as the closed case for parabolic Navier Stokes) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is funny too, cause i've shot you down, WD.

Like i say, easy to master, difficult to perfect.

Even "masters" get shot down.

All the best to you, sir, and thanks for your attempt at helping.
I always enjoy dueling with anyone,so we can do that again.

Hopefully you wont be flying a lerche, next time...lol..

DKoor
07-15-2009, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
i understand the difference between a cheat and an exploit.

Anyhow, that all makes sense, with the prop pitch.....i did every thing you described DeKoor, and i noticed no huge gain in speed.
Maybe there is a step you left out.


Anyhow, getting my 109 to climb 10k at a 45-70 degree pitch in only a matter of seconds requires more than this exploit, right??

Unless you have some auto configuration that pops all those commands in nice and rapidly so you can do it over and over, but i still dont see how you could pump your self up in the air over 12k, with out losing any speed.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif That, what you described is not possible with any means known to me.
It is very likely that you are dealing with a modded flight models there (FM).
Some people have that knowledge and are using it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif.

As far as you haven't been able to obtain the same results as I was, in short time I will post you a track so just load it up and see for yourself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

BTW we may lament here about what is a cheat and what is exploit difference is not clear, as the line about what is and what is not a cheat in a PC game is not clearly drawn.
I respect the ones who regard this as an exploit but I do not share that point of view for few reasons.

For me issue is clear... if I use some possibility in game to obtain an unrealistic advantage over my opponent I am gaming the game - cheating.
The fact that the possibility isn't equally available for all planes out there nor it is widely known or mentioned anywhere in READMEs or other documents only supports my point of view.

DKoor
07-15-2009, 11:41 AM
Here are the tracks.
http://www.datafilehost.com/download-f43fe138.html
You can clearly see how this works.
So by using this in 1v1 with same planes one can get advantage.

Results... F4U-1D max speed is 575kph @ deck, with this you can get 582kph very possibly more because I haven't really pushed that stuff to the edge.
With Tempest V this is even more pronounced... Tempests maximum speed @ deck is 610kph. By using this I am hitting 625kph http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

And I'm not even versed in this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

M_Gunz
07-15-2009, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by jayhall0315:
.... remember when I wrote at the beginning of this thread that prop pitch threads are often littered with well meaning guys who are missing the main points and often get confused by irrelevant material .......deja vu

Like the OP who doesn't address the differences in prop systems and doesn't get how CSP works?
You may use it okay but the stories behind how you think it works don't match how it actually works.
Running full power and full revs all the time is the mark of a noob who hasn't left the DF mentality yet.

BillSwagger
07-15-2009, 11:51 AM
which corsair is it??
I just realized that there are f4U A/C/D, and also a few called Corsairs.
Same planes different names, so maybe that makes a difference.

It really doesnt matter to me, if you call it a cheat/exploit. What i've seen in game, recently goes far beyond how the game was intended, and i believe its much more illicit than some prop pitch exploit. You could call the cannon firepower of the 190 an exploit, for that matter.
Not every aspect is going to be true to life.
I just been playing long enough to know when something doesn't look right. I'm not one to brag about kills, and this and that....
I figure I'm able to do pretty well with what i do know, and no mods, so i must be some what competitive. My SA is probably my strong point and that alone keeps me from getting shot down but its also why i'm so keen to the BS.

Redwulf__26
07-15-2009, 11:56 AM
LOL, good stuff.

Surely as long as a pilot operates by the manual he doesn't need to know about Newtons Parabolic Priciples or whether Bernoulli's stroked his wifes eigenvector curves recently, he just needs to know when to pull the levers to get the best performance out of whatever he's flying.

JV44, The Redwulf Squadron (http://www.jv44redwulf.de/)

DKoor
07-15-2009, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
which corsair is it??
I just realized that there are f4U A/C/D, and also a few called Corsairs.
Same planes different names, so maybe that makes a difference. Not sure what are you talking about here.
I've made you pretty good tracks where you can see how this works... featured plane is F4U-1D, the one we are talking about all the time here.
But that doesn't matter anyway... content of the tracks is what matters.


It really doesnt matter to me, if you call it a cheat/exploit. What i've seen in game, recently goes far beyond how the game was intended, and i believe its much more illicit than some prop pitch exploit. You could call the cannon firepower of the 190 an exploit, for that matter.
Not every aspect is going to be true to life.
I just been playing long enough to know when something doesn't look right. I'm not one to brag about kills, and this and that....
I figure I'm able to do pretty well with what i do know, and no mods, so i must be some what competitive. My SA is probably my strong point and that alone keeps me from getting shot down but its also why i'm so keen to the BS. This was uncalled for, Bill.

deepo_HP
07-15-2009, 12:19 PM
billswagger,

as dkoor has already replied, hardly anyone knows, which strange event you experienced. so far also noone else related it to any known phenomenon.

edited, as it has just been replied to in better words..

BillSwagger
07-15-2009, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
which corsair is it??
I just realized that there are f4U A/C/D, and also a few called Corsairs.
Same planes different names, so maybe that makes a difference. Not sure what are you talking about here.
I've made you pretty good tracks where you can see how this works... featured plane is F4U-1D, the one we are talking about all the time here.
But that doesn't matter anyway... content of the tracks is what matters.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Missed your previous post, Dekoor must've posted nearly at the same time or right after.



It really doesnt matter to me, if you call it a cheat/exploit. What i've seen in game, recently goes far beyond how the game was intended, and i believe its much more illicit than some prop pitch exploit. You could call the cannon firepower of the 190 an exploit, for that matter.
Not every aspect is going to be true to life.
I just been playing long enough to know when something doesn't look right. I'm not one to brag about kills, and this and that....
I figure I'm able to do pretty well with what i do know, and no mods, so i must be some what competitive. My SA is probably my strong point and that alone keeps me from getting shot down but its also why i'm so keen to the BS. This was uncalled for, Bill.[/QUOTE]

All due respect, but i was just stating an opinion. I love this game, so its not easy to bad mouth it, but if i wasn't seeing what i saw, then i wouldn't have to.

Anyway, i'll quit talking about it.
I've tried recording flights online and i've already logged 75+ tracks, that i will spend some time sifting through.
I will keep in mind what you have already explained, and if i think something doesn't look right, i will set it a side and have you guys look at it.

I'm not the only person to recognize these things.

http://www.mission4today.com/i...01&finish=15&start=0 (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=6501&finish=15&start=0)

the 14th post down, is that....??? no couldn't be.....


thanks again

DKoor
07-15-2009, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
which corsair is it??
I just realized that there are f4U A/C/D, and also a few called Corsairs.
Same planes different names, so maybe that makes a difference. Not sure what are you talking about here.
I've made you pretty good tracks where you can see how this works... featured plane is F4U-1D, the one we are talking about all the time here.
But that doesn't matter anyway... content of the tracks is what matters.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Missed your previous post, Dekoor must've posted nearly at the same time or right after.

It really doesnt matter to me, if you call it a cheat/exploit. What i've seen in game, recently goes far beyond how the game was intended, and i believe its much more illicit than some prop pitch exploit. You could call the cannon firepower of the 190 an exploit, for that matter.
Not every aspect is going to be true to life.
I just been playing long enough to know when something doesn't look right. I'm not one to brag about kills, and this and that....
I figure I'm able to do pretty well with what i do know, and no mods, so i must be some what competitive. My SA is probably my strong point and that alone keeps me from getting shot down but its also why i'm so keen to the BS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>This was uncalled for, Bill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

All due respect, but i was just stating an opinion. I love this game, so its not easy to bad mouth it, but if i wasn't seeing what i saw, then i wouldn't have to.

Anyway, i'll quit talking about it.
I've tried recording flights online and i've already logged 75+ tracks, that i will spend some time sifting through.
I will keep in mind what you have already explained, and if i think something doesn't look right, i will set it a side and have you guys look at it.

I'm not the only person to recognize these things.

http://www.mission4today.com/i...01&finish=15&start=0 (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=6501&finish=15&start=0)

the 14th post down, is that....??? no couldn't be.....


thanks again </div></BLOCKQUOTE>No problem, i think this was all just an issue of misunderstanding.
Thanks for the links... that issue what you brought up is whole another thing (cheating via hacks/mods), but is interesting nevertheless.
Especially jayhall's post.
We could try and rewind back time to remember all those folks who were saying that mods are going to burn down the online play (via hacks).
Well... I also happen to think that they will if they aren't controlled.
As I don't know squat about it, I hope there is a way to stop it. Alternative is not an option.

BTW I'm looking forward to your tracks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif.

ElAurens
07-15-2009, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
.

For me issue is clear... if I use some possibility in game to obtain an unrealistic advantage over my opponent I am gaming the game - cheating.
The fact that the possibility isn't equally available for all planes out there nor it is widely known or mentioned anywhere in READMEs or other documents only supports my point of view.

Thank you sir. That is all I'm trying to say as well. Even though some have seemingly taken offence at my post, offense is not intended, I am merely observing the game.

danjama
07-15-2009, 03:55 PM
I would like to give my opinion here.

As far as using the prop pitch to increase top speeds/acceleration, i would say this is a cheat, although i have no idea how to do it and i'm quite happy to trundle along at whatever speed my plane wants to go http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif If others feel the need to do it then they suck, plain and simple.

With regards to this other "phenomenom" you saw Bill, the 109 zooming 3000m with no speed loss, maybe you perceived it incorrectly. I have to ask - Got Track? I know 109 are good climbers but i've never seen it to that extreme. I fly Bf109's daily and know the climb envelope pretty well....what you described is NOT typical or correct Bf109 behaviour in any model of the plane.

jayhall0315
07-15-2009, 04:40 PM
Gaming the game El Aurens ? .... hmmmmm

What if I have played for one month and I am beginning to get comfortable with using rudder inputs but I face a guy who does not know how to use the rudder for yaw. Am I gaming the game then, because I am going to use yaw to beat this guy ? I would say not, at least not in my opinion.

Gadje is correct. As of 4.08m or 4.09b, in an unmodded, crt=2 game, there is no such thing as a prop pitch exploit (meaning something crazy which gives you cheat like abilities). I am probably not the authority to end all authority, but I have seen hundreds of Ntrks in conjunction with my work for the Masters List and I am pretty familiar now with spotting all manner of cheats and a prop pitch cheat per se, in an unmodded, crt=2 game does not exist.

The people who have learned to use prop pitch, and use it correctly though, can 'exploit' it (if you want to use that word, LOL) to get maybe an extra 3 to 7% of performance over someone who does not know how to use it. And for someone who is patient in a long fight (like Gadje, Thunderbolt, GROrion, etc....), this can over several passes turn into a real advantage.

Gunz, Swagger, Dkoor and others - The purpose of the thread was to give one clean and clear example to be used as mentally illustrative. The questions on constant speed props, PP at high altitude, prop pitch in conjunction with lower throttle settings, etc.... are all good questions but we could easily digress off point and fill the thread with dozens of ancillary posts that quickly become techno garble. Which is not my point in posting this. Yes, Prop pitch in Il2 is a little whacked and it is implemented slightly differently among different airframes, but you will still be able to get the gist of it from the original post hopefully.

S! fellas (never gambled a dime in my life but headed to Monte Carlo tonight to do my best impression of James Bond http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

BillSwagger
07-15-2009, 10:24 PM
Thanks gain jayhall for all the work you've done for this game.


Originally posted by danjama:
....what you described is NOT typical or correct Bf109 behaviour in any model of the plane.

This happened yesterday, and no i didnt make a track of it. I wasnt quick to hit record because in this situation, this was a teammate, so there was no perceived threat and i wasn't planning an attack. I still looked down (open pit) and watched him climb from under 1000M up to my altitude over 3000M, and continue another 1000M above me. ( in 4 -5 seconds time)

When i was newer, i was somewhat unfamiliar with the plane sets. As I put more hours into this game I started to get a clearer picture of what works, and what doesn't. (ie prop pitch, yaw, throttle, trimming)
Most of my flight time is spent online. After many more hours i could get a sense of performance from the aircraft i'm both flying and confronting.
After many, many more hours (days/weeks) my SA increased ten fold, especially when i started to play in the full switch servers.
So as a player, I wouldn't call myself new, and having a good sense of where things are and where they should be in game is one of my strong points. i think any experienced pilot is also at that level of awareness.
It wasn't until i reached that level of awareness that i started to notice these problems.
When things are out of place, its sort of like noticing an ant crawling on a blank piece of paper, in that it really stands out, and its easier to pin point when you see it coming from the same player(s).

I actually have enough to start naming names, but i figure i should have those tracks set aside first. The long and the short of it, I shouldn't have to do this crap, and i feel a fair game is somewhat compromised. I have other interests and hobbies that id rather spend my free time with, so moving on to something else is far more easier. I don't really feel the need to convince other people, especially when this phenomenon is already known and well documented.

Testus01
07-16-2009, 04:20 AM
Hi all,

This thread is interesting because its a resume of what we try to achieve with a simulation game and is also typical on how people write, critic about it. So passionate that there's small room for tolerance, good faith and understanding.

So thanks to jayhall for his initial input, to Bearcat for his diplomacy and to all contributors. We lack thanking people, online salutes, 'good kill' and 'thanks for the game'. We all want to win or achieve our mission goal, so we all hate to burn, break or get a nasty shot in the head. For that, most of us are ready to learn something new every day, some of us even take real fly lessons (I flew a glider last week, wow). So the path we all take is better understanding of airplanes and how it's simulated or not in IL-2. Forums are excellent for this as long as you have got enough time to read.. and find relevant information. It's sometimes boring to sort facts from personnal opinion (my 109 has a bigger ** than your Corsair), but freedom of speech is important.

So my proposal is: please don't write just for your good self, get ready to be surprised by new ideas and try them before clicking the reply button. Back to topic: I read this post from _RAAF_Stupot from the raafsquad forum; a good and useful one:

"Prop pitch....Prop pitch is the closest thing a propeller-driven plane has to a gear box. Imagine the propeller blades cutting through the air and pushing a mass of air backwards, thereby pushing a mass of aircraft forwards (conservation of momentum if you've ever done high-school physics). Obviously those blades will work best at some fixed airspeed, because any faster or slower, the air will be 'slipping' past the blade at a different speed to which it would normally like to push the air. The solution to this, is to have an adjustable prop pitch - which means that the angle of the propeller blade is adjustable, and will take a bigger or smaller 'chunk' of air as the air rushes past. When a plane is going slow the propellor only needs to take little chunks of air (a bit like low gear in a car), and when the plane is going fast it can take big chunks (a bit like high gear). Normally this is called 'fine pitch' and 'coarse pitch' but in Il-2 it goes from 100% (max. fine pitch) down to 0% (max. coarse pitch). In level flight and constant throttle, when you adjust the prop pitch, you will see the engine RPM's go up and down, even though your airspeed is not changing.

What does this mean in the game? Coarse prop pitch makes the engine turn slower, resulting in lower engine temps and better fuel economy. When you take off or land, use 100% (first gear). In cruise I use normally about 85% (4th gear). If I want max fuel economy I will use say 70% or 75% (Top gear). If I'm in a dive I might even go to 60% prop pitch, but this doesn't happen often. When in combat I'm normally at 95% or 100% prop pitch so as to give best acceleration."

Bye and good flying.

Art-J
07-16-2009, 09:44 AM
It is a useful post indeed, describing how direct, manual pitch adjustment affects behaviour of the plane.

However, how many novice Il-2 fliers are aware of the fact that the writing "prop pitch xx %" they see on their screens doesn't always mean what they think it does? Do they fully understand that in CSP planes (and these are most of machines we choose from in Il-2) it actually means controlling the prop RPM and not the pitch itself? The pitch which is actually adjusted by the governor and changes all the time while the plane is accelerating/decelerating, just to keep the RPMs at more or less constant level. Yet, the unfortunate writing (or translation from Russian?), done years ago by developer, says "prop pitch xx %", as if it didn't change at all.

The novice player who is not aware of that and who read some posts about "gearbox comparison" and "biting chunks of air" might find his observations in the game different from what he read, hence even bigger confusion!

Cheers - Art

DKoor
07-16-2009, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
.

For me issue is clear... if I use some possibility in game to obtain an unrealistic advantage over my opponent I am gaming the game - cheating.
The fact that the possibility isn't equally available for all planes out there nor it is widely known or mentioned anywhere in READMEs or other documents only supports my point of view.

Thank you sir. That is all I'm trying to say as well. Even though some have seemingly taken offence at my post, offense is not intended, I am merely observing the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Originally posted by Art-J:
It is a useful post indeed, describing how direct, manual pitch adjustment affects behaviour of the plane.

However, how many novice Il-2 fliers are aware of the fact that the writing "prop pitch xx %" they see on their screens doesn't always mean what they think it does? Do they fully understand that in CSP planes (and these are most of machines we choose from in Il-2) it actually means controlling the prop RPM and not the pitch itself? The pitch which is actually adjusted by the governor and changes all the time while the plane is accelerating/decelerating, just to keep the RPMs at more or less constant level. Yet, the unfortunate writing (or translation from Russian?), done years ago by developer, says "prop pitch xx %", as if it didn't change at all.

The novice player who is not aware of that and who read some posts about "gearbox comparison" and "biting chunks of air" might find his observations in the game different from what he read, hence even bigger confusion!

Cheers - Art You are right Art.
I bolded the text above, that is probably all that matters to average player of this game.

If they are really interested in how prop pitch control works (and other controls) for their favorite plane I think they came to a wrong place... for two reasons.
First being the game pp control obviously does not work as IRL, and second they might get much better explanation from some other site that deals with ww2 warbirds... or better yet - books.

BillSwagger
07-16-2009, 12:22 PM
The way it was explained to me by family, several pilots, and a couple books, was actually quite simple, but its the results and uses that i think people tend to get a bit confused about.

Prop pitch simply changes the amount of rotations the blade does when moving through air, or water, by changing the chord (angle) of the blade.

You throw in engine torque, engine RPMs, power band, engine load, heat, drag, scooping of air, etc etc etc...

and a simple concept starts to sound more convoluted. Fact is, you need a basic understanding of those things to even know what prop pitch can do for you when flying.

I figured out the little boost thingy, and i really dont see it as an exploit, as much as say hitting disconnect to get out of a fight. lol...

For any newbs....
I have an auto key function that drops my pitch to 70 when i press and hold it, then when i release the button it goes back up 100. In a way, it gives a slight boost in acceleration, and its benefit really depends on the situation and aircraft.
The auto key assignment works well in combat, and is a bit better than having to manage a lever, but i still have a Hotas set aside for when i need prolonged prop pitch adjustments, like when cruising.

Woke_Up_Dead
07-16-2009, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
This happened yesterday, and no i didnt make a track of it. I wasnt quick to hit record because in this situation, this was a teammate, so there was no perceived threat and i wasn't planning an attack. I still looked down (open pit) and watched him climb from under 1000M up to my altitude over 3000M, and continue another 1000M above me. ( in 4 -5 seconds time)

Could it have been that he timed-out in mid flight? Sometimes that happens when players lose connection but don't get kicked from their server, their plane continues in a straight line in the same direction as it was going when connection was lost.

jayhall0315
07-16-2009, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Art-J:
It is a useful post indeed, describing how direct, manual pitch adjustment affects behaviour of the plane.

However, how many novice Il-2 fliers are aware of the fact that the writing "prop pitch xx %" they see on their screens doesn't always mean what they think it does? Do they fully understand that in CSP planes (and these are most of machines we choose from in Il-2) it actually means controlling the prop RPM and not the pitch itself? The pitch which is actually adjusted by the governor and changes all the time while the plane is accelerating/decelerating, just to keep the RPMs at more or less constant level. Yet, the unfortunate writing (or translation from Russian?), done years ago by developer, says "prop pitch xx %", as if it didn't change at all.

The novice player who is not aware of that and who read some posts about "gearbox comparison" and "biting chunks of air" might find his observations in the game different from what he read, hence even bigger confusion!

Cheers - Art

Not bad Art and true. Gearbox examples and all mean well but yes, confuse the new guys.

BillSwagger
07-17-2009, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:


Could it have been that he timed-out in mid flight? Sometimes that happens when players lose connection but don't get kicked from their server, their plane continues in a straight line in the same direction as it was going when connection was lost.

When i contest these things, that's usually the first legitimate argument that's told to me, online. Its not a server time out because of the path the plane takes and the fact that there are other things that occur that give away the plane has timed out.
The plane will usually stay in one position while continuing on the heading the server last recognized.

This plane rose above, and continued to fly.

Lets say it was a timed out, (which is wasn't) he would still have to get to the higher altitude in order for the server to recognize the new position of his airplane.

This is not the only occurrence, and I'm quick to notice the difference.

DKoor
07-17-2009, 05:36 AM
It is not hard to determine whether plane is timed out.
It usually moves in unnatural way, flying sideways, backwards, climbing with nose pointed down, plowing the Earth etc.
It is always good to have a track in these occasions.

For instance, I was once fighting this guy on WarClouds in Mustang... he jumped me in FW-190D I managed to trick/sucker him and now he was in front of my four mighty .50cals http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif .
He started to scissor, I anticipated it, cut the throttle raked his starboard wing; after that point he got one way ticket down in a form of unrecoverable spin... sure thing 10m before he bites the dirt his Dora started to fly thru Earth, moving backwards etc.

He simply discoed his internet connection because he was being too much of a loser to admit a honorable defeat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif.

Some day, just like jayhall's collection of IL-2 Masters, I will start to make the chart of the biggest IL-2 losers. Much more interesting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif.

jayhall0315
07-17-2009, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:


Could it have been that he timed-out in mid flight? Sometimes that happens when players lose connection but don't get kicked from their server, their plane continues in a straight line in the same direction as it was going when connection was lost.

When i contest these things, that's usually the first legitimate argument that's told to me, online. Its not a server time out because of the path the plane takes and the fact that there are other things that occur that give away the plane has timed out.
The plane will usually stay in one position while continuing on the heading the server last recognized.

This plane rose above, and continued to fly.

Lets say it was a timed out, (which is wasn't) he would still have to get to the higher altitude in order for the server to recognize the new position of his airplane.

This is not the only occurrence, and I'm quick to notice the difference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Swagger, I too am an ardent anti-cheat advocate and I have even sent Ntrk tracks to the moderators here at Ubi. We ran into so many difficult cases with nominees for the Masters List that we eventually asked for professional help (in the form of source code and other software tools) from Oleg's staff. However, no one can take you seriously until you provide Ntrks. Yes, you can make movies with fraps and then post them on YouTube, but that does not (except in the most glaring cases) provide good info about possible cheating. So, if you feel a real hack is being used against you, make an Ntrk and send it to some of the senior moderators here or private message me and I will help you once I get back from vacation.

S!

BillSwagger
07-17-2009, 11:20 PM
i am aware of this.
like i said, its just a matter of sitting down and sifting through the 75+ tracks i have and setting aside what is questionable, and then probably picking out the more obvious cases.

75 tracks that probably average 10 minutes a piece.

you see where this is going, and apart from stating the obvious, proving it will requiring more time and energy than it seems worth to me.

For now.

Superjew1
07-18-2009, 03:44 PM
Now, I wasnt sure how to work my prop pitch, but I go more by engine sound. I try to keep my rpms just humming at the fastest possible, usually is about 90% for most situations, and %100 for climbs, however I bump it down to %75 for dives, and I mainly have flown the F6F and the F4U as my main planes.

I am no expert on prop pitch but can you go by when the engine "sounds" the loudest and fastest short of a screaming over rev or is the sound of the engine misleading about its efficiency at different prop pitches?

DKoor
07-18-2009, 04:05 PM
Engine sounds doesn't tell us much really, if "screaming" is concerned.
Like it has been said here several times, if our engine is designated for 2700RPM then it should be kept there.
If we have CSP (constant speed unit) equipped on our plane my hearty advice would be to just forget about prop pitch management.

If you want to cheat/exploit then it is probably best course of action to make a script and execute it when needed.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Bearcat99
07-18-2009, 04:50 PM
The bottom line is the title of this thread is


How Prop Pitch works in IL2 and Why It is Important

Not

How Prop Pitch Works on Vintage WWII Aircraft
or
How Prop Pitch Works on Modern Day Prop Aircraft
or
How Prop Pitch Worked According to Aircraft Specs from 1937-1947.

or anything like that.... and I think Jay did a pretty decent enough job of explaining that... As for the planes with manual pitch... I say if you can master it without frying your engine then you deserve any advantage it gives you, because it isn't easy but as Gadje said.. that exploit was fixed back with 4.05 I believe.. or somewhere thereabouts and not only that, it still doesn't render you invulnerable or convey any kind of advantage that someone else can't also have if they do the work or make a rookie or crappy VP (VirtualPilot) a good one. (At least for some of these DF rooms... ) The planes in this sim have strengths & weaknesses.. if you take the time to learn them for the mount you have chosen then I say more power to you.

All this weeping and gnashing of teeth is totally unnecessary it is what it is. Enjoy the ten year old engine while you still can and/or want to.


Originally posted by ElAurens:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
For me issue is clear... if I use some possibility in game to obtain an unrealistic advantage over my opponent I am gaming the game - cheating.
The fact that the possibility isn't equally available for all planes out there nor it is widely known or mentioned anywhere in READMEs or other documents only supports my point of view.
Thank you sir. That is all I'm trying to say as well. Even though some have seemingly taken offence at my post, offense is not intended, I am merely observing the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nonsense... Many don't know exactly how external padlock works either.. but it's pretty common.. it's a feature of the sim. Many don't know anything at all about any kind of PP in the sim so they dont get the most speed out of their planes and wind up getting chased down by planes they should and would be able to outrun if they knew how to manage their CEM and E as modeled in the sim. Is that cheating too? It is certainly "gaming the game" to ones advantage but IMO not cheating...


Originally posted by ElAurens:
Prop pitch in the game is in no way representative of what it is in real life.
I see no mention of manifold pressure readings in this discussion.
Imagine that.
What jay is talking about and what BillSwagger has seen online is the prop pitch exploit in use.
If you took a real aircraft and left the throttle at 100% and pulled the pitch way back, your manifold pressure would soar above it's redline and you would very quickly damage your engine.
That does not happen in the game, and it's why you see all manner of aircraft doing impossible feats.
Enjoy your little cheat boys.
BTW, when Oleg saw some of the Russian teams using this at an IL2 tournament in China a few years back he was shocked.
It is not intended to be used in this manner, but cheaters will always find a way.


Originally posted by Gadje:
That was fixed in a patch years ago http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif. It was an exploit for 109's switching between manual and auto that gave a boost in performance in a climb. No such advantage exists now.
The players at that tournament all knew about it and agreed to use it in the competition(check with your old squadmates). Oleg fixed it thereafter.
No big deal and no witches to burn. Go put your pitchfork down now and stop trying to frighten the peasants.

I dunno.... maybe I am just a bit sensitive to the term cheat, cheater etc and all the character flaws it implies. I don't associate with any folks like that personally, so I always raise an eyebrow when I see/hear the term being bandied about. I try not to toss phrases like that around lightly because they are character issues... and I have too much respect for most people that I have met here to insult their character with such a label simply because they choose to use a feature that is not only readily available in the sim but that was addressed by Oleg & 1C years ago. The way I see it... I am just glad that the planes are all modelled so differently... with such different strengths & weaknesses.

BillSwagger
07-18-2009, 05:04 PM
point taken
I just wanted to know how to make a 109 climb from 1000ft to 10,000ft in a matter of seconds ( not warping) using prop pitch.

This discussion has only revealed that it can't be done.

"cheating" is only a harsh word when its wrongly used, but its a perfect description for what i've seen.

(BTW, its a compliment to me if a guy flying a spitfire calls me a cheat while i'm flying a P-47)

As for gaming the game, i dont see prop pitch, as its been demonstrated in this thread, as an exploit. Prop pitch will only help maximize the performance of the aircraft you are in, but it wont give it super speed, or allow it to climb like a rocket, no matter how hard you try.
My uses seem to show a slight boost in acceleration and maintaining top speeds for longer periods.
It has other benefits for cruising, fuel economy, and engine cooling, but i really dont use it that way that often because i'm too busy fighting.

deepo_HP
07-18-2009, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
I just wanted to know how to make a 109 climb from 1000ft to 10,000ft in a matter of seconds ( not warping) using prop pitch. but that had been answered as 'not possible' from the start.
still hardly anyone can tell what it was... and calling it 'cheating' is only a 'perfect description', if it could be evaluated. if not, it shouldn't be called as such.



Originally posted by BillSwagger:
As for gaming the game, i dont see prop pitch, as its been demonstrated in this thread, as an exploit. nobody said ever it would be. prop pitch is a feature of complex engine management. the 'exploit' was a whole different thing.

and as bearcat said, it has been taken care of. i also agree strongly with bearcat on the use of the term 'cheat'!

BillSwagger
07-19-2009, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by deepo_HP:

still hardly anyone can tell what it was

You can think what ever you want about it.
but i could see it, i was there, and i've accurately described what occurred.



and calling it 'cheating' is only a 'perfect description', if it could be evaluated. if not, it shouldn't be called as such.

Before i chose the word "cheat" i was saying stuff like " a 109 with amazing performance"....."how can i do that?" Cheating was not the first thing that occurred to me.

I saw it, i evaluated it, i further researched that it could not be duplicated through experience or superior skill. You have to trust that i've given this game every benefit of the doubt, even my opponents and team mates. I've ruled out warping or lag.
I haven't named names, and i've made no accusations, so it shouldn't be that sensitive for people unless that accusation has been made directly toward you.
I've come to my conclusions about it, and i don't need convincing it was otherwise.
Here's the kicker....
I've read other literature that reveals more about what i saw, and with respect to Il2 i won't mention anything more about it here.

mmmmmmm...kay???

I really don't feel the need to put hours of energy into it trying to convince others, when its already known.

peace out...



Bill