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View Full Version : I finally "get" the Fw-190



Ernst_Rohr
11-14-2006, 12:04 AM
After years of hearing folks rave about the 190, I never got what was so dang hot about this bird. Yet, I see plenty of guys that can really work this ride online. Still, I had no luck with it, thought it turned like a bus, climbed like my sick aunt, and you cant see out of the stupid thing. So, I was a dedicated 109 pilot.

I have a friend who kept telling me "you can fly the heck out of a Ki-84, why the hell cant you get the 190?" He is a great 190 jock, and a good Hayate flyer as well. He keeps telling me they are very similar AC, but I never saw it.

So, after much prodding, I have been trying the 190 again. Had mixed success. When I finally managed to climb to alt, and find someone, I could boom them and smack them dead, but had hell getting back to altitude, and kept bleeding speed to quickly. Went back to hating the 190, as I was just frustrated at not being able to perform in it. I read all the experten posts, I tried all the stuff they were talking about, and no dice. I just couldnt make it happen with the 190.

Since my coop buddies have been on an east front kick, I have been TRYING to use planes I normally avoid. So, I tried the 190 again, with a lot prodding from my friends. Ken finally showed me the light.... and WOW have I been impressed with the 190!

Apparently the three things I was doing wrong before;

1) Too heavy on the stick when turning. Ken pointed out that just banking the AC does an good job without using the elevators, and thus, doesnt bleed speed. Tried it, and sure enough, works well, and my speed stays up. Apparently I have bad habits from flying Japanese birds all the time.

2) Letting speed drop too low. Bad habits again, my usual rides are climbers, and the 190 isnt. I tend to play the vertical, and the 190 isnt as tolerant of some of my stunts learned from the 109 and Ki-84. Keeping level, and running fast, and then zoom climbing after a boom, FINALLY I got it! Secondly to that, I wasnt watching the rudder enough and keeping the ball centered, the 190 has a LOT of rudder travel as the speed changes, I was not used to that.

3) *$!**@ Auto-prop! This one was kinda funny. Ken pointed out that I fly manual pitch on all my Japanese birds, so why the hell was I using the autopitch in the 190 when all the material from the experten said not to. Umm, well, duh, score one for Mr. Not-paying-attention. Fixed that really quick.

End result was amazing! Keeping the speed up, keeping my bad habits in check (no yanking hard on the stick) and flying manual pitch made the 190 really come alive.

I have come to the conclusion that the 190 is KILLER! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Godawful fast, dives like a brick, rolls like a political spin doctor and WOOF those 4x20mm pack a whallop! Once I got my bad habits in check and paid attention to the AC, I was really surprised! Been flying it offline and online in coops, and I am really starting to get the hang of it.

We ran a couple of coops tonight and I think they have concluded that I am NOT allowed to fly it anymore. First run was 6 kills, second run was 7 kills, and I STILL had ammo left! I NEVER get those kinds of kills in a 109!

Its amazing what the bird does when flown right, and I feel like a colossal IDIOT for not figuring this out earlier.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

Feathered_IV
11-14-2006, 12:13 AM
Great post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I'm transitioning from IJN stuff to the occasional luft-dabble. I'm finding the 109 a bit lacking, but haven't been putting into practice what I can see the 190 boys doing with ease. I swear, I should get a DFC for all the 190D engines I've wrecked http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

***********************************************

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/Feathered-sigpic.jpg

"Intelligent, normally observant and answered all questions freely. He was arrogant and proud to be a pilot. Fellow prisoners in hospital consider him mentally unstable."

Ernst_Rohr
11-14-2006, 12:34 AM
I like the Japanese planes, but I kind of got shoved into the role of "dedicated" Japanese opfor flyer courtesy of my friends all wanting to fly US Navy birds, which I have never been all that wild about. That got me to liking the Japanese planes, and I got pretty good with them.

Now the guys are back to Europe, so I am flying things I dont normally touch. The 190 has been my bane for quite a while now, so I was really glad to finally clue in.

Did the same thing with the Mig-3. Used to absolutely despise the plane, but I am getting better with it (Mig-3 AM38 rocks!), and I am slowly getting used to flying Yaks (HATE early Yaks!)

I think that its probably a good thing in the long run. There are still a lot of AC in the game that I havent really flown (like the Macchis) and getting out of your comfort zone for a while is a good learning experience, even if you wind up looking like swiss cheese! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

WTE_Galway
11-14-2006, 12:39 AM
sounds like you mainly dogfight ..

but regardless .. the 190A8 with mk108's in the wing is the best bomber killer in the game .. bar none

HellToupee
11-14-2006, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
sounds like you mainly dogfight ..

but regardless .. the 190A8 with mk108's in the wing is the best bomber killer in the game .. bar none

bar 190a9 with 108s

Vacillator
11-14-2006, 02:05 AM
Nice post Ernst, educational stuff. Particularly the bit about manual pitch for me as I'm so lazy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I've never tried it. Soon to be rectified...

What I really love about 190s is the roll rate. Oh and the weapons. But I know I'm missing something because I get on better with the early As than the Ds - perhaps I'm still turning a bit too much?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c88/Vacillator/PF/bf109g6_sized.jpg

DomJScott
11-14-2006, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by HellToupee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
sounds like you mainly dogfight ..

but regardless .. the 190A8 with mk108's in the wing is the best bomber killer in the game .. bar none

bar 190a9 with 108s </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree, with the limited ammo in the 108's the 190 isn't the best. IMO the best (prop) aircraft is the Beau, i-185 or Tempest. The Me110 runs them close and the A20 is pretty effective too.

I did some testing - nose on nose engagements with B17's and the 190's and 109's struggled to kill 5.. the Tempest, i-185 or Beau killed 8. The 110 was trickier to handle but almost as good.

But as a fighter, I agree those 4x20mm's rock especially as they often have 2 MG's in support. Don't fly axis aircraft too often however the 190 I do like.

gx-warspite
11-14-2006, 02:33 AM
No. 6 20s are better than 108s or 103s. You'd think 50% extra firepower wouldn't make a difference, but believe me, it does. And you can hit from much further away with these puppies.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.doranine.com/images/juggernaut.jpg
Think he's bad? He's badder when he has eight fifty-caliber Browning M2 machine guns attached.

leitmotiv
11-14-2006, 02:45 AM
The redoubtable 190A-1 through A-6 have always been favorites of mine, but the Maddox interpretations have never felt right to me. I prefer the Shockwave "Wings of Power" 190As which have the phenomenal lateral sensitivity of the real items. They roll like tops if you just think "roll." I pity Spitfires.

WWMaxGunz
11-14-2006, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
Its amazing what the bird does when flown right, and I feel like a colossal IDIOT for not figuring this out earlier.

It's a rite of virtual passage the step you've taken, from mudhen to shytehawk right there.
What kind of speed differences you get between you and target?

It's like a big secret that after just so much, more stick not only turns slower but slows you
down, isn't it?

One thing you say you don't use so much of the vertical and man you miss out some moves.
No enemy close and you want to turn without bleeding your current high cruise, what you do?
Climb and bring the nose up so your turn follows a tilted curve down to about 320kph over
the top and thanks to gravity the down part of the curve is unloaded some and you can pull
some extra angle without stalling as long as you have the speed. Coming out of the turn
you shallow dive and regain energy there. Bleeding is a % of your speed so if you do the
bleed maneuver at lower, more efficient speed then you lose as smaller % of less speed.

There's also the highspeed half-loop up with twist in the middle points you anywhere.

You just need a lot of speed and maybe some work with your trim. As a plane slows the trim
should go little more nose up.

I used to like the FW's back in IL2 about v1.1 (IIRC, mid-summer 2002). Turned fine till you
tried to get a bit too much angle. And that had to be learned by experience. Whole threads
were spawned for months about the FW bleed and how FW's engaged Spits over the channel and
you will like this part: can't be done with 190A-4 and early Spit-Vb. How it stack up with
you?

msalama
11-14-2006, 06:55 AM
the best bomber killer in the game

Believe it or not, the IL-2 Series 3 (http://koti.welho.com/msalama/Sturmo_Intercepting.ntrk) is an excellent bomber killer as well...

Yeah, sorry for interrupting you, please go on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hippies FTW!

Manu-6S
11-14-2006, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
3) *$!**@ Auto-prop! This one was kinda funny. Ken pointed out that I fly manual pitch on all my Japanese birds, so why the hell was I using the autopitch in the 190 when all the material from the experten said not to. Umm, well, duh, score one for Mr. Not-paying-attention. Fixed that really quick.


Agree, but under 300km/h the engine still dies (as acceleration).

I remember the first time I pick the Hayate: I screamed "Damn!!! This is the engine (thrust) that Antons should have!!!" (all translated in italian).<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.diavolirossi.net/manu/banner.gif (http://www.diavolirossi.net)

Ernst_Rohr
11-14-2006, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
Its amazing what the bird does when flown right, and I feel like a colossal IDIOT for not figuring this out earlier.

It's a rite of virtual passage the step you've taken, from mudhen to shytehawk right there.
What kind of speed differences you get between you and target?

It's like a big secret that after just so much, more stick not only turns slower but slows you
down, isn't it?

One thing you say you don't use so much of the vertical and man you miss out some moves.
No enemy close and you want to turn without bleeding your current high cruise, what you do?
Climb and bring the nose up so your turn follows a tilted curve down to about 320kph over
the top and thanks to gravity the down part of the curve is unloaded some and you can pull
some extra angle without stalling as long as you have the speed. Coming out of the turn
you shallow dive and regain energy there. Bleeding is a % of your speed so if you do the
bleed maneuver at lower, more efficient speed then you lose as smaller % of less speed.

There's also the highspeed half-loop up with twist in the middle points you anywhere.

You just need a lot of speed and maybe some work with your trim. As a plane slows the trim
should go little more nose up.

I used to like the FW's back in IL2 about v1.1 (IIRC, mid-summer 2002). Turned fine till you
tried to get a bit too much angle. And that had to be learned by experience. Whole threads
were spawned for months about the FW bleed and how FW's engaged Spits over the channel and
you will like this part: can't be done with 190A-4 and early Spit-Vb. How it stack up with
you? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The speed differences were HUGE. We were flying against Yak-1b's and Laggs, and they were escorting Il-2's and Il-4's.

Hardballs shows the 190's as marginally faster on the deck, and much faster up high. My experience the last couple of nights was that I was MUCH faster across the board. I was turning about 500kph on the deck and overran pretty much everything without much issue.

I only had one guy in a Yak that was hanging with me, and the Yak is his favorite ride. The rest of the time I was leaving everyone else in the dust. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I do use the vertical, but some of the moves I use in other planes had to be un-learned. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I use a spiral climb a lot in the Ki-84 and 109. Can't do that in the 190! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

However, one of my favorite moves in the Hayate is a vertical scissors, and that same move works VERY well in the 190. Just a matter of finding what works. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I also found the roll rate to be fantastic for break aways. Our dedicated Yak pilot managed to get on me last night and pepper me with his 20mm, I started a turn, got him to follow, then snap rolled the opposite direction and pulled a banked Split S. He couldnt follow me! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I agree on the trim. That part was also similar to the Hayate, fly it a little nose up and she really runs fast. Staying on the ball with the 190 is a little more work, I find it a lot more like the P-51, you have to adjust constantly as your speed changes.

That and the rudder on the 190 is SENSITIVE. Only plane I have seen that has a more positive rudder response is the 110.


As far as turning with the Yaks and LaGGs, I only turned into them briefly for a deflection shot. If it went more than a couple of seconds, and my speed started to drop, I broke off and piled on the gas. Both the Yak and the LaGG bleed a ton of speed when they turn hard, so I was easily faster than them.

The only problem I had was that the Yak is a MUCH better climber than the 190, and our two good Yak pilots kept extending away from me by using spiral climbs. No way for me to touch them when they did it. Combination of turning and climbing is a get out of jail free card against the 190, unless I am missing something.

The big positive was that the speed on the 190 was making it really tough for the Yaks to get a good shot on me, and I was able to extend away from them and whack the bombers they were supposed to be protecting in every coop. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

mynameisroland
11-14-2006, 08:16 AM
If you are faced with a Spitfire, La5 or a Yak you said yourself this is their best evasive vs you. --------- Know in advance that they are going to do it, be prepared. As soon as they make to climb use your better elevator response and squirt a spread of 20 mm shells in to their predicted flight path. Climbing bandits are my favourite targets.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/mynameisroland/boemherTemp4.jpg

Ernst_Rohr
11-14-2006, 08:22 AM
Thanks, I will give that a try. I think I might be able to catch a couple of them doing that.

Jerry (our dedicated Yak guy) runs out a bit before he starts the spiral, so I think he might know about that one. I will have to work on it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

He is just really annonying in that Yak, but it does make for a good fight!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

WWMaxGunz
11-14-2006, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
The speed differences were HUGE. We were flying against Yak-1b's and Laggs, and they were escorting Il-2's and Il-4's.

You feel that you had to shoot low or give very little lead?


Hardballs shows the 190's as marginally faster on the deck, and much faster up high. My experience the last couple of nights was that I was MUCH faster across the board. I was turning about 500kph on the deck and overran pretty much everything without much issue.

A hawk amongst mudhens perhaps?


I only had one guy in a Yak that was hanging with me, and the Yak is his favorite ride. The rest of the time I was leaving everyone else in the dust. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And before you had your Revelation, how good a pilot would you have described yourself as?


I do use the vertical, but some of the moves I use in other planes had to be un-learned. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I use a spiral climb a lot in the Ki-84 and 109. Can't do that in the 190! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If the other plane is slower then run almost straight to get speed up near his top end.
At that point you have more excess power to climb with and he has almost no excess power.
And you can do a wide spiral just fine when he can't climb worth spit. Faster plane will
always have speeds where it is the better climber as well.


However, one of my favorite moves in the Hayate is a vertical scissors, and that same move works VERY well in the 190. Just a matter of finding what works. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I also found the roll rate to be fantastic for break aways. Our dedicated Yak pilot managed to get on me last night and pepper me with his 20mm, I started a turn, got him to follow, then snap rolled the opposite direction and pulled a banked Split S. He couldnt follow me! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Couldn't dance to your music and you can't dance to the other; but you forced what song got
played just coming in with all that energy.


I agree on the trim. That part was also similar to the Hayate, fly it a little nose up and she really runs fast.

Nose up pitch or just trim? Are you holding the stick forward to fly level? You can work your
pitch/power to hold level between key taps. And you don't want the nose high, esp-esp-esp in
turns. It increases your AOA, you're closer to stall and hey more lift but extra drag.
Turn nose low and drop for 1st half then rise at accelerated speed the next half. You can
raise your total coming around a turn and get speed up quickly. Even more if you don't have
to raise back up to where you were.

Altitude is energy and so is speed. I'd rather have maneuver speed with an enemy above than
to be slow and close at his height.


Staying on the ball with the 190 is a little more work, I find it a lot more like the P-51, you have to adjust constantly as your speed changes.

That and the rudder on the 190 is SENSITIVE. Only plane I have seen that has a more positive rudder response is the 110.

I don't know your sliders. Fool Trottle has a utility free that lets you save and switch
profiles between games. You could try toning the rudder axis down and if you do or not,
add Filter to it.

I tried a Spit IXe to see what it took to stay coordinated and first, it doesn't have a ball
but instead there's a double slip and bank indicator that uses needles, wayyyyy down on the
lower right of the front panel. So far, that is the hardest to keep coordinated for me.
Way too much power for the weight!


As far as turning with the Yaks and LaGGs, I only turned into them briefly for a deflection shot. If it went more than a couple of seconds, and my speed started to drop, I broke off and piled on the gas. Both the Yak and the LaGG bleed a ton of speed when they turn hard, so I was easily faster than them.

Okay there's something you gotta work on. Fast plane wants to circle with slower and get
shots in, right? And without getting shot up in the process and most of all staying faster.
So you use gravity and the vertical. He curves off flat and slows, you rise and roll so you
can keep him in sight and then come down so you get a nice deflection shot and he panics and
it's better than a new toy. Next 180 you do a diving turn and get extra angle from the drop
so you come up inside of him and from below, repeat as able and never ever pull too hard on
the stick to keep any move up. That's Greed and accounts for many losses, yours and everyone
elses. If you need to pull so much more then you need to spend more time setting moves up
with energy management in mind. You might take 2 extra turns or yos just to have more E on
the hits or stay high and circle instead of dropping to attack if you got to the top at less
than 320kph or so. Really it takes 2 or more so one is harrasing the target while the other
is above.



The only problem I had was that the Yak is a MUCH better climber than the 190, and our two good Yak pilots kept extending away from me by using spiral climbs. No way for me to touch them when they did it. Combination of turning and climbing is a get out of jail free card against the 190, unless I am missing something.

Not if you force a high speed chase first. Then it's you that has them trapped.
If you chase somebody up a spiral and they can spiral better, you are dancing to the wrong
music and I'm guessing you're slow dancing with mudhens. Make them cha-cha with Dora!

Whic plane is capable of more speed? Note I do not ask which is faster. Speed rules.


The big positive was that the speed on the 190 was making it really tough for the Yaks to get a good shot on me, and I was able to extend away from them and whack the bombers they were supposed to be protecting in every coop. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I guess that answers the speed question.

If you get real serious then there's this book that runs about $35 new. A lot of it relates
but the missiles and tactics that work best at jet speeds you have to be careful reading.

Also look around for No Guts, No Glory.

general_kalle
11-14-2006, 09:29 AM
i still havent "got" the 190. it dosnt roll fast enough for me.

at which speed does it roll best??<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

what have you got to lose?
You know, you come from nothing - you're going back to nothing.
What have you lost? Nothing!) -life of Brian

Ernst_Rohr
11-14-2006, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:

You feel that you had to shoot low or give very little lead?

I was tending to shoot from the 5,6, or 7 position. Shots from the 6 were from six high or six low, as I try not to shoot things from dead six if I can help it. Low six in particular is a favorite of mine. With a little lead, you can walk hits from the nose back, tends to give up a solid kill regularly, and the often dont know what just hit them. Read about that in a bio of Adolf Galland, and it does indeed work like a charm.



A hawk amongst mudhens perhaps?

More along the lines of flying to the strengths of the bird I was in, while most of the other guys were trying to turn fight. Except for the bombers and IL-2's, those poor guys were just targets.


And before you had your Revelation, how good a pilot would you have described yourself as?

I would say I am a fair pilot, depending on the situation and the plane. I have been told that I am a good pilot by some of the guys I fly with, in coop and online. My SA could be better, and my formation flying skills can definately use some work. Supposedly my gunnery skills are good, but I am too cautious in taking high deflection shots.



Nose up pitch or just trim? Are you holding the stick forward to fly level? You can work your
pitch/power to hold level between key taps. And you don't want the nose high, esp-esp-esp in
turns. It increases your AOA, you're closer to stall and hey more lift but extra drag.
Turn nose low and drop for 1st half then rise at accelerated speed the next half. You can
raise your total coming around a turn and get speed up quickly. Even more if you don't have
to raise back up to where you were.

Now that is some good info! I do tend to fly a little nose up. Ken (our 190 flyer) was showing me that you could bank the plane and let the nose up position turn for you without touching the elevators, thereby keeping speed up, and just using a little rudder to keep the plane level. I tried it and it works well. I am going to try your suggestion though, and see how it compares. Thanks!



Okay there's something you gotta work on. Fast plane wants to circle with slower and get
shots in, right? And without getting shot up in the process and most of all staying faster.
So you use gravity and the vertical. He curves off flat and slows, you rise and roll so you
can keep him in sight and then come down so you get a nice deflection shot and he panics and
it's better than a new toy. Next 180 you do a diving turn and get extra angle from the drop
so you come up inside of him and from below, repeat as able and never ever pull too hard on
the stick to keep any move up. That's Greed and accounts for many losses, yours and everyone
elses. If you need to pull so much more then you need to spend more time setting moves up
with energy management in mind. You might take 2 extra turns or yos just to have more E on
the hits or stay high and circle instead of dropping to attack if you got to the top at less
than 320kph or so. Really it takes 2 or more so one is harrasing the target while the other
is above.

Very interesting! I will definately give this a shot. Sounds like some offline practice is in order. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thanks for all the info, great stuff!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

Ernst_Rohr
11-14-2006, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by general_kalle:
i still havent "got" the 190. it dosnt roll fast enough for me.

at which speed does it roll best??

Faster the better is what I was told.

Our resident 190 jock insisted that the 190 should be flown 300kph or faster, below that the roll is still responsive, but you dont have enough speed to do anything with.

Flying the last couple of nights seems to indicate thats pretty spot on. At 500kph, the 190 is super responsive. I boomed one of the Yak pilots last night, pulled a vertical scissor and rolled back into him at 360kph. Dove back to his low six, and *BANG* dead Yak. Snap rolled and pulled a split S and boogied out of there at 500kph before his wingman could line up a shot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So, the faster the better seems to be the key.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

Xiolablu3
11-14-2006, 11:36 AM
FW190 of all marks in their correct year, is the best plane in the game in my opinion.

Once you start flying the FW190 like you are in it, then you see why she was such a great plane.

Take a wingman, keep fast, dont turn too much and own the skies.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

Ernst_Rohr
11-14-2006, 11:49 AM
What are you guys setting convergence for in the 190? I have been running 250m to 300m, and that seems to be working pretty well.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

Xiolablu3
11-14-2006, 01:42 PM
I use the same I think Ernst.

I think mine was set at 350 for cannons and 300 for Machine guns. I do a lot of long range shooting tho, so mine might be a bit long for some people.

I would rather waste a bit of ammo in the hope that I damage him a bit rather than 'making sure'. Often I find you dont get a perfect chance to shoot, so I make hard shots in the hope of hitting, or learning something if I miss http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Especially in the FW190 I will lay down a hail of fire when the enemy is behind my engine and hope that he flies thru it. Quite often you look back and see a plane missing a wing falling to the earth. In the FW190 and P47 you have enough ammo to make these unlikely shots, whereas in a Spitfire or Mk108 equiped Me109's (not that I ever fly later 109's) you need to conserve your ammo.

Dont get me wrong I love the earlier Me109's and think the Me109F4 the best plane in the game in 1941 (much nicer plane than the Spitfire MkVb), but I really dont like the later Mk108 eqquiped 109's. The poor elevator at high speed really screws up my flying as I spend most of my time at speeds over 450kph.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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josephs1959
11-14-2006, 02:12 PM
Great news! Another converter to the FW. If I may add my Two cents in. And i'm not calling myself a FW Virtuoso. You can also use the way she bleeds speed to your advantage. I've found that if the circumstances are right and he's on your tail closing fast. Throtle down to 80% and at the same time you can jerk her for a turn using only the rudder. She'll whip over like a car skidding in a turn with the brakes on sort of drifting. Especially in a climbing turn and he'll fly right by you. But you must be ready to power up the throttle for acceleration and pursuit. Airwarfare.com has some articles about Fw tactics that I found useful also.

josephs1959
11-14-2006, 02:23 PM
You'll achieve better results with the 20mm instead of 30mm, less drag on the plane (better accleration and speed, climbing)due to less weight. And better aiming ability especially since the 20's begin to fall into an arc alot further than the 30's.The30's have shorter range lower velocity gun. But here's a hint to make the shaking of the 30mm less of a problem. I have a sepereate button for the machine guns(Trigger) and the cannons (middle thumb button ontop of x-52 stick).I've found that if you press the cannon buton every one second or half of a second and this requires timming on your part. It'll shake less and you'll be able to aim better.

josephs1959
11-14-2006, 02:31 PM
Yea me again, I've found that for convergence 250 works for me just fine. I aim at the wing root and KERPLAM! It falls off! any closer and KERSPLAT! the whole thing explodes! YEA HAA!!!

Ernst_Rohr
11-14-2006, 02:38 PM
Well my buddies I fly with seem to think that I dont get to fly anything with cannon anymore, so I guess the convergence is spot on! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I tried the 30mm, but to be honest, they have the ballistic arc of an anvil. Brutal when they hit, but I will stick with the 20mm.

joseph,
Yeah, I love the rudder sideslip. I used it last night to whack three IL-4 bombers in a single pass last night! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (and yes, I have pictures!)

I started a 190 campaign to practice a bit, and work on my long range shooting, so far its been fun.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

Xiolablu3
11-14-2006, 02:52 PM
I have to agree about the 30mm, who needs it when you have 4x20mm cannons?

I would rather have the extra performance and take the 20mm than the Mk108.


I hate taking any gunpods on planes. Much better to have better performance in my opinon.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

WTE_Galway
11-14-2006, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I have to agree about the 30mm, who needs it when you have 4x20mm cannons?

I would rather have the extra performance and take the 20mm than the Mk108.


I hate taking any gunpods on planes. Much better to have better performance in my opinon.


I totally agree on the pods .. I only use mk108's when available as an "in wing" configuration (like teh late model 190A series)or as nose cannon (110 for example) but avoid the pods. In theory the extra range of the 103's should make then a viable option in pods but in game I havent seen much difference between a 103 and 108.

As for 30mm vs 20 mm it does depend on your style and what you are hunting ... if its a stable bomber stream, once trimmed up with convergence set right you can hit and sometimes kill with a 103/108 from 500 metres or more .. however if its a mobile dodging target that is shooting back the 20mm have better ROF and are less finicky about convergence being on.

VW-IceFire
11-14-2006, 03:42 PM
Welcome to the fold. The bad habits you've described are exactly the ones that I warn people away from and yet they don't listen and still don't get it.

I guess you need to do it for yourself and then it kicks in. Its a tricky plane but its extremely rewarding to fly as you have now noted. A good understanding of the FW190 can then be applied to many other planes...the Ki-84 I'm sure is even more deadly in your hands now.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Xiolablu3
11-14-2006, 03:49 PM
The only problem I find with the Ki84 for energy fighting is that it has quite a low break up speed, surely to represent the poor built quality of the Japanese planes late in the war. I am always losing parts from flying too fast in it.

Rgr that Galway. Do you know if the 30mm 'in wing' config actually hinders performance? If it doesnt then I might start giving the Mk108 equipped FW190 a try, as the 2x20mm are quite enough for fighter to fighter work.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

Ernst_Rohr
11-14-2006, 03:56 PM
I was pretty solid in the Hayate before, but I will have to give it a spin and see! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The Hayate cannot dive like the 190, one of my tricks in the Hayate was to "dirty up" the AC in a dive to ****** speed, otherwise you break 700kph and watch your wings go bye bye!

The Hayate also climbs like a homesick angel, and its speed is top notch. Only thing that touches it is the P-51 or P-63. The speed characteristics are similar in nature, but the Hayate can still turn.

I see some similarities, and hopefully some of the skills will transfer over! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

VF-51-Dart
11-14-2006, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
I like the Japanese planes, but I kind of got shoved into the role of "dedicated" Japanese opfor flyer courtesy of my friends all wanting to fly US Navy birds, which I have never been all that wild about. That got me to liking the Japanese planes, and I got pretty good with them.

Heya Ernst. Glad to hear you're liking the 190. I've always loved her, even with her warts! LOL Great bird. I used to fly her a lot when I was a member of IV/JG51. Contrary to the popular opinion of the USN birds, if you fly them similarly to the way you fly a 190 you?ll do very well. I?d like to think we (Air Group 51) have had great success with them since our transition from LW to USN. Took a bit to get used to the armament, etc. but at the end of the day we found we were essentially using the same tactics in them as the 190s and 109s.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Lawn Dart
CAG Air Group 51 USN www.airgroup51.com (http://www.airgroup51.com)
"You fight like you train."
- Motto, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School (TOPGUN)

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slappedsilly
11-14-2006, 04:29 PM
Great post! I HAVEN'T got it yet, but I'm hoping this helps. Thanks.

BillyTheKid_22
11-14-2006, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
I was pretty solid in the Hayate before, but I will have to give it a spin and see! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The Hayate cannot dive like the 190, one of my tricks in the Hayate was to "dirty up" the AC in a dive to ****** speed, otherwise you break 700kph and watch your wings go bye bye!

The Hayate also climbs like a homesick angel, and its speed is top notch. Only thing that touches it is the P-51 or P-63. The speed characteristics are similar in nature, but the Hayate can still turn.

I see some similarities, and hopefully some of the skills will transfer over! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Ernst_Rohr is ****!!!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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.................................................. ..............

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Jaws2002
11-14-2006, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
I was pretty solid in the Hayate before, but I will have to give it a spin and see! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The Hayate cannot dive like the 190, one of my tricks in the Hayate was to "dirty up" the AC in a dive to ****** speed, otherwise you break 700kph and watch your wings go bye bye!

The Hayate also climbs like a homesick angel, and its speed is top notch. Only thing that touches it is the P-51 or P-63. The speed characteristics are similar in nature, but the Hayate can still turn.

I see some similarities, and hopefully some of the skills will transfer over! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Don't even compare the FW-190A with the Ki-84. In the game they are not even close in handling and performance.
Anyone can drive a Ki-84 and be effective in it. Fly the 190 like a Hayate and you are dead in a heartbeat.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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JG14_Josf
11-14-2006, 05:41 PM
Ernst_Rohr,

If I were you, and I once was in the same spot, I'd listen to some good advice that was given to me, and now I know the advice is solid.

Do not fly lower than your target if you intend to stay and fight.

If you have tracks that puzzle you, as to what happens, and what can happen next time, then, I'd be inerested in looking at them to offer my viewpoint.

josf.kelley@verizon.net

Keep on having fun!

BillyTheKid_22
11-14-2006, 06:03 PM
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.................................................. ..............

"All I got was a bellyful of English Channel."

BBB_Hyperion
11-15-2006, 12:48 AM
Welcome to the FW Club .)

Most things got already mentioned. Maybe some notes that you can keep energy better when using manual prop pitch in climb and dive and turn. Using lower pp settings like 30 % or 40 % reduces drag and allows even tighter turns for a short time. Further for better deflection shooting i increased convergence settings to 700 m and 720 m . That seems to be a good compromise between the ability to shoot planes straight and with some angles. It allows when tracking the target to reduce the range you need to pull deflection ahead of the target as the guns point up and you can keep the plane in sight.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

-------------------
High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

F19_Ob
11-15-2006, 06:46 AM
The advantage of using manual pitch is infact not that great.
Autopitch doesn't sound as experten-glamorous but still generates safer settings in all attitudes and comparable power output.
Fw190 on auto can manage most contemporary adversaries with BnZ as long as one doesn't forget the speed rule and squander ones energy.


I'm quite fond of the fw190, although it isn't exactly a sportsmans plane (too many cannons and too fast).
The feature I like the most is the good maneuverability at high speed wich very few planes can match.
Fw's in group to watch eachothers tails beats most opposition with little danger to themselves.

Fw190 also can take a few hispano hits sometimes and fly home, but few planes can sustain the spray of 4 cannons and limp home.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/f19_ob/ob_ver2.jpg

WWMaxGunz
11-15-2006, 07:03 AM
So properly flying FW 190A-4 online, what is your reaction to different model Spit VB's?

Feel threatened?

Are they on par?

Good target practice?

F19_Ob
11-15-2006, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
So properly flying FW 190A-4 online, what is your reaction to different model Spit VB's?

Feel threatened?

Are they on par?

Good target practice?

Hey m8. I'm note sure if that question was directed to me or not, but I'd regard any spit with respect because it depend who's flying it and what situation,altitude, and if over friendly or enemy territory.

If I'm alone and don't just fool around, I think that any spit that is near my altitude or is aware of me is a waste of energy more than one pass.
However I usually go away but return from another angle and place, unless I have determined my adversary inexperienced.
Making two or more attacks on a spit that knows how to evade is a sign that it's time to bugger out.
I have caught quite many lonely fw's trying to BnZ one time too many.

If U are two or more fw190, use drag n bag tactics.
One attacks and the other waits for the spit to engage, but holds if not. Then repeat in turns.
On occasion a fw 190 may risk dragging by hanging onto a spits tail, forcing him to bleed more speed than normally when trying to get behind the fw.
This way the other fw's have a slower target, but they should be experienced shooters to try this, because an expert in the spit may reach a firing position quite fast.
Risky , yes, but a bit more elegant and sportive.

One mistake that is easy to do while killhorny is to make a second BnZ pass after an already successful hit, with the intention of delivering the coup de grace.
Usually this is unesseary regarding your armament, and perhaps also less gentlemanly
considering the code.
Well a good saying is "if U don't trust your ability so atleast trust your armament and leave second passes to peashooters". (no offense ment)


Are they on par?
Spits have goddies over the fw and the other way round.
For most spits there is little idea spraying its smaller ammoload after a diving fw if the distance is more than 300m.
A fw190 on the other hand may spray its 4 cannons from as long ranges as 600-700m with reasonable hit-probability.

A spit cant roll with a diving fw at speed, although a fw can't match a spits loop.

The earliest spits are ofcourse the most preferable opponents to fw190a4 since it's slower and can't roll as the clipped wings.

Furballs are fun but risky because it's much harder to have control of what many players
do and a damaged fw is out of the game while a turner in a furball may evade by going slower, although that isn't much better, but a damaged fw usually can't get away because of drag and it usually can't go slower than turners either.


Well I don't much like saying one plane is better than the other just like that but I allways felt that the faster planes with more cannons have easier to survive and be able to return home to claim kills.
Just the fact that to be able to get away after a pass if one wants to is quite decisive in a battle.

A fw190 thus may be able to BnZ a group of spits, get a kill and return home.
Much harder for the spit to return home after his bounce on a gaggle of fw190's.

I'll leave it there.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/f19_ob/ob_ver2.jpg

Ernst_Rohr
11-15-2006, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Welcome to the FW Club .)

Most things got already mentioned. Maybe some notes that you can keep energy better when using manual prop pitch in climb and dive and turn. Using lower pp settings like 30 % or 40 % reduces drag and allows even tighter turns for a short time. Further for better deflection shooting i increased convergence settings to 700 m and 720 m . That seems to be a good compromise between the ability to shoot planes straight and with some angles. It allows when tracking the target to reduce the range you need to pull deflection ahead of the target as the guns point up and you can keep the plane in sight.

That is interesting. So what do you normally use for high speed cruise settings?

As far as convergence, I did try the longer ranges before, I may try it again, but I do like the blind man with a hammer approach. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

Ernst_Rohr
11-15-2006, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
I was pretty solid in the Hayate before, but I will have to give it a spin and see! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The Hayate cannot dive like the 190, one of my tricks in the Hayate was to "dirty up" the AC in a dive to ****** speed, otherwise you break 700kph and watch your wings go bye bye!

The Hayate also climbs like a homesick angel, and its speed is top notch. Only thing that touches it is the P-51 or P-63. The speed characteristics are similar in nature, but the Hayate can still turn.

I see some similarities, and hopefully some of the skills will transfer over! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Don't even compare the FW-190A with the Ki-84. In the game they are not even close in handling and performance.
Anyone can drive a Ki-84 and be effective in it. Fly the 190 like a Hayate and you are dead in a heartbeat. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I was pointing out that while there are smiliarities (speed, armament) the planes are different.

As I mentioned in the beginning, my buddy kept arguing that I SHOULD be doing good in the 190 because I was doing well in the Hayate, and I was disagreeing.

I do disagree about the 84 being an "easy" plane. Flying the Hayate takes a lot more work than a comparable allied plane. Everything is manual in the Hayate, you have to pay attention to the prop pitch constantly to get the best speed out of it, stall fighting in it is tricky, it is a fragile plane that loses aerodynamic ability instantly from damage, and it lacks a lot of safety features found in other planes.

Yes, a n00b could jump into the 84 and slop around without too many problems, but he is going to get plowed pretty quickly.

The Hayate hasnt been an "uber" UFO plane for quite a few patches now.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

Ernst_Rohr
11-15-2006, 10:05 AM
Josf,

Thanks for the offer, if I have any questions, I will email you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ob,

I would disagree somewhat on the manual pitch. My biggest complaint before was that the 190 climbs poorly. I do notice a big difference between manual and auto when climbing. I would agree about cruise speeds, it does seem similar

But, since I fly a lot of early war stuff with manual pitch anyway, this really was a big stretch for me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"Have you ever noticed? Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a moron."
--George Carlin

BBB_Hyperion
11-15-2006, 04:47 PM
The Auto system and manual system are different in the approach what they use. The manual system trys to maintain a rpm like constant speed prop from thrust % set as input. The Auto system using KDO wannabe simulated device input which is a little lacking behind the actual situation and mostly too high rpm or too low. The 3rd mode of prop operation on the fw is not modeled that is the manual pitch control like the 109. When you use auto the system takes time to get used to acceleration process and increases drag in the starting phase of the dive which can be compensated by using reduced throttle or reduced pitch on manual. At low speed to keep the plane in the air 100 % prop pitch brings best performance . The higher the speed the more to reduce settings on high speed dive 45 % are quite a good compromise between acceleration process from dive and use of g forces and drag development. Once you finished the dive and climb you can switch back to auto to have no hassle with the correct settings on lower speed margins auto can deal with it. That is of course for the a model while the d model has a pitch operated manual mode and have to be used with more care almost like the 109 but not as strict.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

-------------------
High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

Xiolablu3
11-15-2006, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
So properly flying FW 190A-4 online, what is your reaction to different model Spit VB's?

Feel threatened?

Are they on par?

Good target practice?

I often feel sorry for people in Spit Vb's when I am in a FW190A4.

As soon as you see one approaching your 6, you can simply nose down and leave him in the dust.

You have to get jumped while unawares or make a pretty bad mistake to get caught by a Spitfire Vb.

As long as you can see him, the Spit should be no threat at all. Simply dont dogfight and the Spitfire is in big trouble as all he can do is fly defensively and try to avoid your attacks, maybe making a desperate head on as you attack.

'Good target practice'


I would like to hear about anyone who feels confident in a SPitfire Vb against FW190A4 and what tactics they use. If I have to fly red (Spitfire Vb) in 1942 scenarios, I feel claustrophic, slow, underpowered and totally defensive vs anyone who has any sort of skill in a FW190. Even with a 1000metre height advanatage, if the FW190 sees you coming you still have no chance of catching him if he dives away.

Any good tactics for Spitfire Vb vs FW190A4 aside from trying to get him into a close in dogfight? (Good pilots are not going to fall for this)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

PBNA-Boosher
11-15-2006, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
...and I am slowly getting used to flying Yaks (HATE early Yaks!

I love early war Yaks, especially against late-war planes. The turning radius really can't help you against the 109F's, but its armament is much more potent with direct shots. ShVaK's tear apart anything in the sky and those 12.7mm UBS's aren't anything to sneeze at either. What I don't like is the late-war Yaks, anything from 44 onward in the Yak series I don't like. The Yak breaks up at slower speeds than other planes in dives, so there's no point (for me) to fly fast. My turning abilities on a diving opponent are vastly superior, and if they're stupid enough not to keep running from me or they don't run away after booming (ie- not zooming) They're as good as Swiss Cheese.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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BillyTheKid_22
11-15-2006, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ernst_Rohr:
...and I am slowly getting used to flying Yaks (HATE early Yaks!

I love early war Yaks, especially against late-war planes. The turning radius really can't help you against the 109F's, but its armament is much more potent with direct shots. ShVaK's tear apart anything in the sky and those 12.7mm UBS's aren't anything to sneeze at either. What I don't like is the late-war Yaks, anything from 44 onward in the Yak series I don't like. The Yak breaks up at slower speeds than other planes in dives, so there's no point (for me) to fly fast. My turning abilities on a diving opponent are vastly superior, and if they're stupid enough not to keep running from me or they don't run away after booming (ie- not zooming) They're as good as Swiss Cheese. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I love yak!!!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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.................................................. ..............

"All I got was a bellyful of English Channel."