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View Full Version : Bying a warbird!? new latest super rich trend.



Copperhead311th
09-03-2007, 09:56 PM
caught a glimps of some show on MsNBC over the weekend. Seems the new big ticket itmes that millionares are gobbling up are war birds. Not news to use we were ahaead of the curve around here on that story a long time ago,

but then it hit me. if they buy em all up and wreck em. most likly will happen eventually. Where could we possibly get more. Well, we sold off a ton fo old WWII aircraft as surplus to otehr countries after the war. I wonder if they may still have some. for instance Pakastan had F-86's, Iran has a whole fleet of F-14's that they can nolonger fly due to parts shortages.
Could some one, had they the cash say just call up the defense ministry in Tehran and offer to take a Tomcat off thier hands for a few coll million?
just how would thast work.

Esel1964
09-03-2007, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
caught a glimps of some show on MsNBC over the weekend. Seems the new big ticket itmes that millionares are gobbling up are war birds. Not news to use we were ahaead of the curve around here on that story a long time ago,

but then it hit me. if they buy em all up and wreck em. most likly will happen eventually. Where could we possibly get more. Well, we sold off a ton fo old WWII aircraft as surplus to otehr countries after the war. I wonder if they may still have some. for instance Pakastan had F-86's, Iran has a whole fleet of F-14's that they can nolonger fly due to parts shortages.
Could some one, had they the cash say just call up the defense ministry in Tehran and offer to take a Tomcat off thier hands for a few coll million?
just how would thast work.

Good luck at Customs! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Stew278
09-03-2007, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Esel1964:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
caught a glimps of some show on MsNBC over the weekend. Seems the new big ticket itmes that millionares are gobbling up are war birds. Not news to use we were ahaead of the curve around here on that story a long time ago,

but then it hit me. if they buy em all up and wreck em. most likly will happen eventually. Where could we possibly get more. Well, we sold off a ton fo old WWII aircraft as surplus to otehr countries after the war. I wonder if they may still have some. for instance Pakastan had F-86's, Iran has a whole fleet of F-14's that they can nolonger fly due to parts shortages.
Could some one, had they the cash say just call up the defense ministry in Tehran and offer to take a Tomcat off thier hands for a few coll million?
just how would thast work.

Good luck at Customs! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, does Ebay have a surplus military aircraft section?

They have a Mig 23 at the USAF museum that got confiscated by BATF because the buyer didn't get the proper permits.

Maybe they just walk up to the crew at an airshow and ask "how much"?

Don't know if it's true or not, but according to Imdb.com Michael Dorn owns and flies an F-86 that he bought from the South African Air Force.

Esel1964
09-04-2007, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Stew278:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Esel1964:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
caught a glimps of some show on MsNBC over the weekend. Seems the new big ticket itmes that millionares are gobbling up are war birds. Not news to use we were ahaead of the curve around here on that story a long time ago,

but then it hit me. if they buy em all up and wreck em. most likly will happen eventually. Where could we possibly get more. Well, we sold off a ton fo old WWII aircraft as surplus to otehr countries after the war. I wonder if they may still have some. for instance Pakastan had F-86's, Iran has a whole fleet of F-14's that they can nolonger fly due to parts shortages.
Could some one, had they the cash say just call up the defense ministry in Tehran and offer to take a Tomcat off thier hands for a few coll million?
just how would thast work.

Good luck at Customs! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, does Ebay have a surplus military aircraft section?

They have a Mig 23 at the USAF museum that got confiscated by BATF because the buyer didn't get the proper permits.

Maybe they just walk up to the crew at an airshow and ask "how much"?

Don't know if it's true or not, but according to Imdb.com Michael Dorn owns and flies an F-86 that he bought from the South African Air Force. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes,ebay does occassionally have a warbird for sale,from the home page go to ebay motors then aircraft.

But buying an F-86 from South Africa,is a little different than an F-14 from Iran. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'm sure people with connections to the underworld(illegal arms dealers),can get them.
But how would you get it registered and flyable?

DuxCorvan
09-04-2007, 01:03 AM
Why can't the millionaires do what they've always been doing, like lit cigars with 100$ bills, eat caviar and drink champagne, sit behind in Rolls&Royce cars, marry fashionable wh*res, kill someone and cover the murder, or swim in gold a-la- McDuck.

No, they have to buy museum pieces to smash their brains in them. There will always be millionaires, but there's a limited number of warbirds out there. If they want to do dangerous things, why don't they just jump from bridges tied with spaghetti ropes, and leave the poor machines alone?

Esel1964
09-04-2007, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Why can't the millionaires do what they've always been doing, like lit cigars with 100$ bills, eat caviar and drink champagne, sit behind in Rolls&Royce cars, marry fashionable wh*res, kill someone and cover the murder, or swim in gold a-la- McDuck.

No, they have to buy museum pieces to smash their brains in them. There will always be millionaires, but there's a limited number of warbirds out there. If they want to do dangerous things, why don't they just jump from bridges tied with spaghetti ropes, and leave the poor machines alone?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif Exactly! If they've got all that money,have something new custom-built(I know there's a place that builds P-51 copies),and leave history alone.

Jure_502
09-04-2007, 01:52 AM
Esel do they really making working copies of P-51's? If this is true that's very good news. Why they don't do some 262's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Esel1964
09-04-2007, 02:05 AM
Jure 502-Yeah,there's a place that builds new copies of P-51s,I saw it in Warbird Digest a few months back,but I can't find it to give a name;I think I gave it to my dad to read.

And you're right,they should branch out to other planes,but I think it's an issue of what sheet metal templates are available.

Jure_502
09-04-2007, 02:15 AM
And I always asked myself from where do they get so many P-51 for airshows...

Esel1964
09-04-2007, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by Jure_502:
And I always asked myself from where do they get so many P-51 for airshows...

Here's one site (http://www.pioneeraerosvc.com/p-51_mustang-specialty.html) I found on google.And another. (http://gallery.karmy.com/v/Flying/Arlington06/2006-07-08_09-01-03.jpg.html)

Vanderstok
09-04-2007, 03:14 AM
Anyone asked for a Me 262??

http://www.stormbirds.com/project/index.html

stansdds
09-04-2007, 03:59 AM
The very wealthy buy airplanes for all sorts of reasons. Some buy them because they love them and care for them. Some just want to go fast, then modify them so they can crash faster. Others are aeronautical nincompoops and crash them because they don't understand them. If you have the money, you can buy pretty much anything and I would hope that anyone buying a classic aircraft would have the sense to take very good care of it.

HotelBushranger
09-04-2007, 06:07 AM
http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/

The bloke who owns and runs this is the son of the man who created Westfield, a major shopping centre conglomerate thing in Australia. As such, he's a very rich son, but as you can see he puts his money to good use http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Choctaw111
09-04-2007, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by Jure_502:
Esel do they really making working copies of P-51's? If this is true that's very good news. Why they don't do some 262's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

They have made several already.

http://www.stormbirds.com/project/index.html

Edit: Vanderstok has beaten me to posting the link. Sorry about that.

Jure_502
09-04-2007, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
http://www.aviationmuseum.com.au/

The bloke who owns and runs this is the son of the man who created Westfield, a major shopping centre conglomerate thing in Australia. As such, he's a very rich son, but as you can see he puts his money to good use http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

We need more rich warbirds lovers! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

PaulV2007
09-04-2007, 12:17 PM
We need more rich warbirds lovers! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Amen to that. I live right around the corner from this:
Flying Heritage Collection (http://www.flyingheritage.com/)

Fortunately Mr. Allen is smart enough not to try to play fighter pilot himself.

Showing up at the hangar on Saturdays with good weather I have been treated to "airshows" for the following aircraft:

Supermarine "Spitfire" Mk.Vc
Curtiss JN-4D "Jenny"
North American P-51D "Mustang"
Polikarpov U-2/PO-2
Curtiss P-40C "Tomahawk"
Fieseler Storch Fi 156-C2 "Storch"
Republic P-47D "Thunderbolt"

reisen52
09-04-2007, 03:59 PM
Why is a guy who is smart enough to make more money, by a very wide margin, then most likely anyone on this site too stupid to learn to fly an airplane that 18-19 year olds off the farm without even a drivers licenses were being taught to fly in combat?

Some of these posts read like a lot of class envy.

DuxCorvan
09-04-2007, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by reisen52:
Why is a guy who is smart enough to make more money, by a very wide margin, then most likely anyone on this site too stupid to learn to fly an airplane that 18-19 year olds off the farm without even a drivers licenses were being taught to fly in combat?

For the same reasons you don't learn to play the violin when you're 50 years old, if you want to play with the Boston Philharmonic Orchestra.


Some of these posts read like a lot of class envy.

Money alone doesn't give you class, lad, just buy the right to pretend it.

As for envy of wealth, well, it depends on how it is earned and how it is spent.

reisen52
09-04-2007, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:Money alone doesn't give you class, lad, just buy the right to pretend it.

As for envy of wealth, well, it depends on how it is earned and how it is spent.


Originally posted by DuxCorvan:Why can't the millionaires do what they've always been doing, like lit cigars with 100$ bills, eat caviar and drink champagne, sit behind in Rolls&Royce cars, marry fashionable wh*res, kill someone and cover the murder, or swim in gold a-la- McDuck.

No, they have to buy museum pieces to smash their brains in them. There will always be millionaires, but there's a limited number of warbirds out there. If they want to do dangerous things, why don't they just jump from bridges tied with spaghetti ropes, and leave the poor machines alone?.

Looks like you have already decided how they got it & should spend it. They must all be crooks or how could they have done it.

Reads like you have a real problem with wealthy people, BTW did you ever ask a poor man to give you a well paying job?

BillyTheKid_22
09-04-2007, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by Esel1964:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jure_502:
And I always asked myself from where do they get so many P-51 for airshows...

Here's one site (http://www.pioneeraerosvc.com/p-51_mustang-specialty.html) I found on google.And another. (http://gallery.karmy.com/v/Flying/Arlington06/2006-07-08_09-01-03.jpg.html) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I love P-51!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



http://home1.gte.net/lbalders/q_p51nosesx.jpg

Copperhead311th
09-04-2007, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by reisen52:
Why is a guy who is smart enough to make more money, by a very wide margin, then most likely anyone on this site too stupid to learn to fly an airplane that 18-19 year olds off the farm without even a drivers licenses were being taught to fly in combat?

Some of these posts read like a lot of class envy.

Well Class envy...ya wanna talk class envy? Don't get me f-ing started. These clown think that just becuase they have money & power or money & fame that they are above the rest of us. Which is toal BullSh*t IMO. the fact that you are super wealthy dose NOT entitle you to belittle those that arent. and most certanly don't make you a better person. Most ofmthem would Sh*t thier pants if one day the all of us blue collar stiff that make thier liv es what it is....Just all up and quit and said we're not gonna take it any more and we demand a lager slice of the pie that we so rightly deaserve. I'm done with that.

I'll just agree with what Dux said. Which is strange i've been doing that alot latly. time to go get theold Noodle checked. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Copperhead311th
09-04-2007, 08:19 PM
back on topic.
Dorn bought an f-86 from S. Afrika.

So if we were to say all chip in.(hypothetically of course)where could/would we start looking? Could Brazil still have some left over P-47's? Doubtful i know. thier much more modernized than that. Maybey some smaller countries. Any ideas?

And see that's another thing i was thinking about. Rather than just let then aircraft fade into history....if you had Doland trumo money you could just build a factory and buy a Lisc. from Boeing, NG, or whoever hold the rights and start chruning out new prodcution modles.
P-51's now are going for a cool Mil each.
open a few dealerships around the world and bada bing badda boom. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
And No i don't mean those 3/4 scale wooden replica planes with Lycommings either. i mean the real deal to orignal specs (minus the weaponry of course.) [which if i had that kinda cash i'd just buy on the black market and intall in mexico..then fly it back...2 ez]

blackbird1999
09-04-2007, 08:37 PM
Copperhead has a great point going back to the orginal topic. It is important that we support the folks who make it their passion to spread the enthusiasim that we have for warbirds. While there will always be an investor trying to latch on to the latest hot trend there are some folks that are still into them for all the right reasons:Commemorative Air Force (http://www.commemorativeairforce.org/gatepage.php)

Enforcer572005
09-04-2007, 09:10 PM
Copperhead, those sources you mention have been heavily scrounged for every last part, and some alot of the flying AC have come from there. Peru was the source of several P-47s, Dominca sold all 12 of its P-51s in the 90s after decades of use (and shooting up a few Cuban "fishing" boats) and are seen at many airshows. The CAF's SBD is an A-24 found in Mexico. The Collings foundation B-24 was a rotted hulk in India. Some radial engine Tempests (looks like sea furies) were found in India as well. It goes on and on.

There are many more warbirds in service now than any time since the end of the 50s I think. If you told me 15 yrs ago that we'd see flying P-40Cs, I'd have laughed.

Russia and CHina are now the sources of many warbirds, as we have seen with the Hurricanes and P-40Cs that have come from there. China has some that they want too much money for, like a mint P-61 they want several million for, but at least they take care of them.

BTW, the Iranian AF has a full squadron of F-14s in service, at least 20. they just took delivery of 4 more that have been refurbished. They reverse engineer them with their growing aviation industry . Some FA-18s encountered a flight of 16 in recent times.

Some real geniuses in our govt still think they are getting the parts from the US, and have ordered that all the remaining F14s be scrapped at the boneyard....real geniuses. I think that may not happen though. At any rate, they are still considered the Iranains most advanced aircraft. They even modified them to carry Hawk SAMs for some reason. Looks goofy in pix.

reisen52
09-04-2007, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead311th:

if you had Doland trumo money you could just build a factory and start chruning out new prodcution modles.

P-51's now are going for a cool Mil each.
open a few dealerships around the world and bada bing badda boom.

Love your logic on rich guys, they don't deserve what they have but you deserve more then you have. Why, so you can be a rich guy? - BTW Who do you think is going to be able to drop $1,000,000 on your new single seat plane?

The median income in the US is just shy of $50,000. Even if you gave 10 deserving blue collar winners free planes, a typical P-51 with a 270 gallon internal fuel capacity would cost about $1350 just to fill the tanks. That's most likely a mortgage payment for a lot of people with real jobs.

Guess the winners could have a contest turning them into a big lawn ornaments since they will not fit in the garage & can't afford to fly them.

Blottogg
09-04-2007, 10:33 PM
I too am a little disturbed at the "more dollars than sense" phenomenon that has crept into the warbird community over the years. It reminds me a bit of the hyper-inflation surrounding exotic sports cars back in the 90's, when the rich rationalized collecting those as "investments". The car bubble burst about the same time as the .com bubble, and prices are only now starting to creep up to those levels again.

Having said that, lots of the guys who buy warbirds are responsible, and seek professional instruction. A former co-worker got his '51 checkout here Stallion51 (http://www.stallion51.com/) and they seem to have a good reputation. But good instruction doesn't always translate into skilled operators, and unlike the days of the old USAAC, there isn't much option to "wash out" a millionare who has his mind set on flying a warbird. P-51D N51TK crashed last month on the owner's first solo flight, killing him. The P-51 collision at Oshkosh killed the pilot of the P-51A as he overtook the P-51D landing ahead of him. Still waiting to hear the NTSB final on that one, but I'm assuming it's going to be pilot error. That A model was a reproduction BTW, the first of a planned run. I don't know if they still plan to produce more.

In addition to the P-51A's, and the Me-262 reproductions already mentioned, there are also Fw 190's (http://www.flugwerk.com/fw190.shtm) and Ki-43 (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/articles/oscar/) reproductions being built. I like these both as alternatives to flying historically significant aircraft, and as a way to increase the population of warbirds, as original airframes become more and more scarce. Engines for these repros may eventually be a problem though, or more likely avgas to run them.

As far as Mustangs going for "a cool mill", that will barely buy you a basket case project these days. Limited supply, and increased demand have driven prices up: Provenance Fighter Sales (http://www.provenancefightersales.com/sale.htm), Courtesy Aircraft (http://www.courtesyaircraft.com/). The lottery got up to $300M recently, giving me ample reason to daydream about this stuff.

I don't know what the answer is to the crashes. I want to see these aircraft fly, but it's expensive. The guys with the money to do so don't always have the ability, or the time to devote to it. Paul Allen seems to have sense enough to acknowledge his limits and let others fly his (very nice) collection. As far as it being easy enough for teenage farmboys to do, those teenage farmboys went through a well-sorted, organized and disciplined training program, and pretty much lived, breathed and slept flying for at least a year or two. Their reflexes, eyesight and hand-eye coordination were also at their peak. Even so, many still washed out because they couldn't learn as fast as the rest of the class. Replace that kid with a fifty-something millionare who's got a few more irons in the fire, and you're just not going to get the same intensity of training. Some make the necessary time, and have the necessary ability, but those unfortunately aren't magically bestowed at a pre-determined checking account balance.

JG6_Oddball
09-04-2007, 11:12 PM
Given the prices of these aircraft and or there parts its becoming like treasure hunting, didnt they just pull a bufflo out of a lake in norway?

het blot i love the flugwerk site...just wish i could buy one.

S!

DuxCorvan
09-05-2007, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by reisen52:
Reads like you have a real problem with wealthy people, BTW did you ever ask a poor man to give you a well paying job?

I don't have any problem with wealthy people. I just have problems with the snobs that think that money is enough to fit where they never did for lack of education.

BTW, I have never asked anyone, rich or poor, a job. They have offered me quite a few. You know, rich people need other people to earn money for them. The times when Mr. Gates typed himself in a garage hijacking public domain operating systems are well in the past.

Anyway, never needed them myself. I work for the Government, a job I earned competing in several tests and exams against more than 5,000 candidates. It's not well paid, but I don't owe anyone a cr*p, thank God.

I think it's you who are generalizing. Of course, not all wealthy people act irresponsibly. I work with archaeological findings. Some of them rich guys will offer their money to fund culture and progress. Others will find one thousand year old items in the yard of their new manor, and will destroy or keep them in secret not to delay the works. These are the ones I don't like, lad.

But, Copper is right. Back to topic.