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View Full Version : Best way to entice a Boom and Zoomer into a turn?



Woke_Up_Dead
10-05-2008, 09:23 PM
Let's say you notice an enemy preparing to dive on you from a much greater height. You're in a more maneuverable plane and you have plenty of time to set up, but he definitely has height and speed advantage over you. What's the best way to get him to fight your fight and start making turns with you?

K_Freddie
10-05-2008, 09:37 PM
1) if you have alt, dive when he dives, to match his speed.
2) roll around his flight path.

In both occasions, take snapshots at him as he passes by. He'll soon get the idea, or lose patience and this is when you'll have him. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

leitmotiv
10-05-2008, 09:42 PM
If the person is disciplined, they won't fall for your bait. They'll pull up and stay in their perch waiting to hit a target which is unaware. If they are undisciplined and come after you, turn hard to make him overshoot you, and then jump on his six and chase him.

WOLFPLAYER2007
10-05-2008, 10:15 PM
Usually i wait till the last moment to make a very sharp turn or the split s manouver, sometimes it works sometimes dont, sometimes when i make a very sharp turn, he passes by me overshooting and sometimes hit me and shoot me down.

staticline1
10-05-2008, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
1) if you have alt, dive when he dives, to match his speed.
2) roll around his flight path.

In both occasions, take snapshots at him as he passes by. He'll soon get the idea, or lose patience and this is when you'll have him. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

1. This will only get you killed as he should be in a heavier faster aircraft than you hence the reason for the type of tactic, unless of course you come up against a new noob.

2. This and what leitmotiv wrote should give you the best chance of survival and maybe get him to fight your fight, make him greedy.

The key is to be displined and not wavier from your fighter's strength, most likely your opponent won't either, just never give up. You should be able to figure out if he is displined or not after a few passes and other energy maneuveres or if in fact he does become greedy and follows you into a turn thinking he has you.

Starting out one of the hard parts is judging your opponents speed and when to break, like everything else its a skill that takes time. Taking snapshots unless your good will just waste your ammo as he most likely will be out of range or any signifigant damage range by the time you can line him up if you're moving around trying to avoid getting shot down.

WOLFPLAYER2007
10-05-2008, 10:17 PM
Also, if i have enought speed, i try to roll to his direction and face a head on attack, dont try this if you are flying with a japanese a/c.

X32Wright
10-05-2008, 10:55 PM
The above tactics are valid but the best way to throw off a BNZer is to get speed and turn into him as he comes and face him off with excess energy. This would throw off his 'firing solution' because now u are not only coming on to him but your plane has a much smaller profile and you are shooting at him!

And why do I know this works? Because I am a BNZer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I apply this defense vs a BNZer when I am being BNZed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This approach though is not for everyone and the faint hearted. It is only for the bold risk taker flyers with very good command of their aircraft and excellent gunnery which can damage the BNZer as they pass when they try to avoid ur fire.

FInally to answer your question, any BNZer worth their salt WONT EVER turn with you and would always keep their energy and alt no matter what you do.

Woke_Up_Dead
10-05-2008, 11:29 PM
What does "roll around his flight path" mean? Is it doing corkscrews in front of him while going in the same direction as he is, like the AI often does when you chase them?

Mercwolf2
10-05-2008, 11:59 PM
Do you have a person you fly with (a friend you can wing with)? Try rabbit and wolf tactic. One flies higher than you and one acts as bait. When the boom and zoomer dives down the lower guy turns to avoid the attack and when the B&Z pulls back upstairs get your wingman to tag him as he will lose speed climbing back up.

Freiwillige
10-06-2008, 01:05 AM
Basic rules of air combat always apply.
Always turn into your attacker!
Boelke's dicta is still taught to this day.
Google it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Los_Toros
10-06-2008, 02:47 AM
Patience.

Jex_TE
10-06-2008, 04:22 AM
Put a picture of a naked lady on the back of your plane, that should get him to follow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gadje
10-06-2008, 04:24 AM
Yep experienced pilots wont turn.

There is another good defence.
If I'm doing the BnZ the most frustrating thing for me is if my opponent doesnt stay under me but goes for horizontal separation by shallow diving away, usually in the direction of his base.

The best time for the lower plane to do this is after the BnZ'er has missed his first pass and is zooming straight up again, so don't chase the BnZ'er up reverse and go away from him.

Usually BnZing I wont spot the lower plane has done this until I am at the top of my climb. I am now slow but with good height he is now fast with less height but moving rapidly away from me.

To chase him means I have to lose my height advantage, diving more horizontally than I would wish. If he has timed it right I will be more on his six than be above him when I catch up. I will have greater speed but may have a hairy time if I miss when he breaks. If I still have enough energy advantage to go up again he just needs to reverse away as before.

As the defender it might just seem like your just running away but your actually trying to even out your energy states so you can engage him either by following him up as he passes or turning hard into him if he is foolish enough to keep traveling horizontally after you.
It's a one man drag'n'bag http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Of course the defender has to be good at judging the shot avoidance break.

So unless I'm drunk http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif If I am the BnZ'er I will usually let him go and look for someone less savvy. But I will have to keep a lookout for him extending and coming back for me!

A similar variation is shallow climbing away from him as he zooms up. This is more tricky as you get less seperation and you must keep enough speed to be able to manuever away from his shots but if he misses a couple of times he will probably have to dive away.

M_Gunz
10-06-2008, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
The above tactics are valid but the best way to throw off a BNZer is to get speed and turn into him as he comes and face him off with excess energy. This would throw off his 'firing solution' because now u are not only coming on to him but your plane has a much smaller profile and you are shooting at him!

And why do I know this works? Because I am a BNZer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I apply this defense vs a BNZer when I am being BNZed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This approach though is not for everyone and the faint hearted. It is only for the bold risk taker flyers with very good command of their aircraft and excellent gunnery which can damage the BNZer as they pass when they try to avoid ur fire.

FInally to answer your question, any BNZer worth their salt WONT EVER turn with you and would always keep their energy and alt no matter what you do.

+1, though alt is energy

If you won't have the higher energy then make sure you have speed enough to pull some hard
turns and don't blow it until you need it. Once you have maneuver speed, use any excess to
spiral climb. You don't want to match speed, you just want all you can use.

Keep him off your six.

If you can stay just out of reach, presenting temptation, then his greed may suck him in.
That's when you turn harder than you've shown him so far, that's why you don't put on any
unnecessary displays. That's when you bob as well as weave, after he commits.

And just pray that he doesn't fly with a mate.

SeaFireLIV
10-06-2008, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
Let's say you notice an enemy preparing to dive on you from a much greater height. You're in a more maneuverable plane and you have plenty of time to set up, but he definitely has height and speed advantage over you. What's the best way to get him to fight your fight and start making turns with you?

Type in the chat bar something like, "Running away like a girl again?"

That actually worked once. I tried it as an experiment when I felt particularly bolshy. To my surprise he came down and took me on, getting himself shot down. However, that`s kinda gaming the game and I haven`t used it since.

With a disciplined pilot nothing will get him to come down. even getting a wingman to join you (as often is the case with squad m8s) usually means he just runs away as soon as he sees he`s not on top any more.

Virtual Luftwaffe pilots have certainly learned how to fly their aircraft better compared to the early days. can make for some very boring combats.

99% trying to catch Jerry who is either miles up in the stratosphere or running away.

Correct strategy for them of course and I would have it no other way (I would certianly NOT implement any artificial restrictions), but boring.

Their is ONE fair way. Get these guys to fight in CO OPS or campaigns where, sooner or later, they must protect ground targets or bombers, then you`ll get a chance at them. They cannot ignore their friends on the ground or they lose the campaign.

Althogh some are so stuck in their ways that they will not come down to even protect ground targets or bombers which is where it becomes unrealistic. Real life Luftwaffe pilots HAD to come down sometimes, even if it did not directly benefit them.

TinyTim
10-06-2008, 10:22 AM
Depends what planes are me and my opponent flying. When I am jumped by a high flying 109 me flying a Russian plane on an Eastern front, I'll go into a shallow dive, carefully watching both my opponent and my speed. Knowing your terminal dive speed is imperative. This should greatly reduce the speed advantage he holds. When he comes into firing range, turn, but only a bit harder compared to him (109s can't turn well at high speeds). When he passes into a zoomclimb, gently turn behind him and follow him. His advantage should now be only a fraction of what he had initially. If he manages to outclimb and boom on you again, repeat the process. Second time, you'll have him.

All this under assumption he does indeed dive after you and does not stay high from the beginning (which is also not bad, at least he is not attacking you - if he wants to shoot you down he will have to follow you in a dive eventually).

If you are boom and zoomed by a plane with good elevator authority (P51, Fw190), your options are much more limited as this tactics won't work (you can't outturn him at high speeds).

JtD
10-06-2008, 11:37 AM
It's always a good idea to fly a faster plane than your opponent. If you do, he is much more likely to accept a turnfight than if he is in the faster machine.

It's also good to do a high speed turn that tightens. Many folks will try to follow you into that turn, some will leave in time, some won't.

Woke_Up_Dead
10-06-2008, 01:01 PM
Lot of good advice, thanks. What do you think of this tactic: when he is still far away turn slowly to face him while maintaining high speed, then at the last moment turn up towards him for a head on pass. Is this a good idea if you have better armament than him, say if you are flying a P39 with the big nose cannon and he is flying one of the lighter-armed BF-109's? I read in a link that someone posted here that some P-51 pilots did that against Migs in the Korean war, they felt that at least they have a 50/50 chance that way.

I_KG100_Prien
10-06-2008, 01:26 PM
A P-51 fell victim to my Stuka the other night thanks to greed and losing discipline. He started off making fast slashing attacks- keeping himself in the defensive window of my rear gun for only short periods of time.

(When under attack I fly from the rear seat and operate the gun)

I was doing a lot of turning to force him into deflection shots, and to goad him into bleeding his energy.. Eventually he got "low and slow" with me, and parked himself right off my six. Game over for him.

joeap
10-06-2008, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:

Their is ONE fair way. Get these guys to fight in CO OPS or campaigns where, sooner or later, they must protect ground targets or bombers, then you`ll get a chance at them. They cannot ignore their friends on the ground or they lose the campaign.

Althogh some are so stuck in their ways that they will not come down to even protect ground targets or bombers which is where it becomes unrealistic. Real life Luftwaffe pilots HAD to come down sometimes, even if it did not directly benefit them.

+1 That's what's so cool about coops or online campaigns/wars. Sometimes you HAVE to take the enemy head-on.

K_Freddie
10-06-2008, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by staticline1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
1) if you have alt, dive when he dives, to match his speed.
2) roll around his flight path.

In both occasions, take snapshots at him as he passes by. He'll soon get the idea, or lose patience and this is when you'll have him. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

1. This will only get you killed as he should be in a heavier faster aircraft than you hence the reason for the type of tactic, unless of course you come up against a new noob.

2. This and what leitmotiv wrote should give you the best chance of survival and maybe get him to fight your fight, make him greedy.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe I should have combined 1) & 2)... etc.. but you're missing the 'Q', with 1).. once you're about the same speed he'd be forced to follow/finish you, as breaking away now would be foolish, and you'd have the advantage with a better turning plane.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tom19073
10-08-2008, 07:12 AM
The best way to intice a turning dogfight is to have a bumper sticker written in a really small font size stuck on the tail. That way, your opponent has to stay really close to your tail in order to read it.

Jex_TE
10-08-2008, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:

Their is ONE fair way. Get these guys to fight in CO OPS or campaigns where, sooner or later, they must protect ground targets or bombers, then you`ll get a chance at them. They cannot ignore their friends on the ground or they lose the campaign.



In my experience on HL, whenever I go for ground targets that are missions objectives, I seem to be a) in the minority and b) because of a, mainly free to attack ground targets with impunity because everyone else is somewhere on the map dogfighting.

Darth_Reagan
10-08-2008, 09:41 AM
Taking a gentle dive to 5 feet and skimming the trees as fast as you can in the direction of home seems to put some off as they often don't want to come down to zero altitude. It also makes the attacker have to think about not hitting the ground instead of using all their concentration on hitting you.

Pigeon_
10-08-2008, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:

Type in the chat bar something like, "Running away like a girl again?"

That actually worked once. I tried it as an experiment when I felt particularly bolshy. To my surprise he came down and took me on, getting himself shot down. However, that`s kinda gaming the game and I haven`t used it since.

Hah, this happens to me all the time when I fly against Japanese planes. They say something like "come back and fight N00b!". Yes, I'm sure a Mustang or Hellcat ace would take on a Zeke in a turning fight... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Seriously, if you want to learn how to evade a BnZer, fly BnZ for a while. See what manouvers throw you off and then put them into practice yourself. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Viper2005_
10-08-2008, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
Let's say you notice an enemy preparing to dive on you from a much greater height. You're in a more maneuverable plane and you have plenty of time to set up, but he definitely has height and speed advantage over you. What's the best way to get him to fight your fight and start making turns with you?

Get directly underneath him.

If you make his dive steeper than about 45º then you start to make his life difficult.

Try to keep him in sight at all times. Watch his geometry. He will almost always try to pull lead because at high energy he's looking for a snap shot; tracking shots at high rates of closure are just asking for a midair.

Don't sustain turns for too long. It's very easy to hit a turning aeroplane from a steep dive. They're almost stationary from the shooter's perspective.

When he dives, try to put yourself at 90º<x<150º to his path (angle between a line extended aft from your tail your tail and forward from his nose). This presents a difficult shot because it's got a lot of deflection and a short duration. Ideally, when he gets to about 500 m you should roll so that your wings are parallel to his plane of fire; this means that you present the minimum projected area.

More often than not, when I take snapshots at high deflection, I hit a wingtip rather than the centre of the aeroplane (which is always my aim-point). If you make yourself a small target, you greatly increase your survival chances.

Now, none of this stuff makes it more or less likely that you'll get a turn fight; that's not under your control. It simply makes it more likely that you'll survive each pass.

***

If he gets behind you, try to initiate a rolling scissors. IME, this is much safer than normal scissors because you keep the bandit in sight more easily and are less likely to inadvertently offer him a snapshot.

If he blasts by with lots of energy, don't try to follow directly. You've got two sensible options:

1) climb at Vy to close the energy gap

2) dive away towards help/home

Option (1) is the bravest; you need fuel and a reasonable idea of how hard you can push your engine. Essentially you end up with a repeat of the above, but the probability of rolling scissors increases as the energy gap narrows. IME fighting back gets hardest as the energy gap falls to between 1000 m>delta E>300 m (equivalent) because in this range the bandit is very unlikely to have any airframe limits to contend with, and is likely to be especially aggressive in pressing the attack.

You will also find that if you go for option (1) you basically stay still over the ground, and this makes it very easy for the bandits to multiply. As such, if you don't have help of your own, I suggest trying to extend your turns towards home...

K_Freddie
10-08-2008, 11:58 PM
A simple example:

I was doing a bit of low level stuff on ADW, and happened to peek behind me. I instantly saw 2 objects diving on me at very high speed.

The front object I instantly recognised as 'not-so-friendly' and yanked my plane into a bone-crunching turn and quarter-roll, keeping it there as I braced for the shells.

No sooner had I started turn and the shells whizzed by and then the object zoomed by - he missed completely. I looked for the second object and recognised it as friendly, as it gave chase. I then kept the plane on a steady course without too much variation (the cammo hides you from above) and never saw that plane again.

He left his persuer standing, but going so fast he lost me as well.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Henkie327
10-09-2008, 02:22 AM
You don't nescessarily must entice the BnZ-er to turn. You have to encounter a BnZ-er who is willing to give up his huge energy advantage and make the energy differences smaller to make a kill. You can for example recognize it when the zooms after the attacks are ever lower than the previous ones. The guy who keeps zooming up into the stratosphere after every attack is ofcourse a nuisance but no real threat as long as you keep sight of him to see when the next attack is coming. This guy has so much energy advantage he won't be able to follow any of your evasive moves. The guy who loses his energy for position is taking more risks and could be very experienced or a rookie. Obviously to make an easy kill, you as defender are hoping for a rookie. However a very experienced player who will get your adrenaline going is a great challenge and will add greatly to your experience.

First, there is no guaranteed way to make every BnZ-er give up his energy advantage all the time. But you can help make the decision easier for the BnZ-er, by setting yourself up as an easy target, it's a game after all. So act as if you didn't see him.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifIf you spot the BnZ-er early, then surprise is lost, so it will become a game of discipline and patience where you are confident that you can continually dodge every attack by flying disciplined and being patient yourself.

As long as you are in a more manoeuverable plane than the BnZ-er, it's actually not that hard to make him miss every attack as long as you see him coming. Keeping sight is everything. You can present yourself as easy target by letting him come in with high speed from behind your 3-9 line, doing as if you didn't spot him (i.e. flying more or less level and straight). However at the last moment, just before you see he will get a shot, you disappear under his nose to make him lose sight. Just roll upside down immediately, and pull the stick back as if you were going into a split S. Then and there in upside down position, you can decide whether you will continue the split S in the opposite direction of the attack (creating more horizontal separation), or to barrel roll in the same direction as the attack, where you end up behind and below the attacker. Whatever you choose, it's very important to keep sight on the BnZ-er during and after the attack.

There is a variation of the barrel roll along the attack direction where you barrel roll upwards instead of rolling upside down. The advantage of the latter is that you disappear into the big blindspot that is the instrument panel before him (assuming cockpit on game). By rolling below his nose you make the attacker lose sight, even if momentarily. When barrel rolling upwards, you have cockpit to cockpit. So both the attacker and defender can keep sight of each other during the pass. But you can for example do this move to exaggerate an overshoot when the attacker dives in steeply.

As last, there are some easy guidelines to help you decide in which direction you want to start the roll into the blindspot of the attacker, just before he can get a shot. For example:
When the attacker comes in from 4 or 5 o'clock, as he closes distance (still outside firing range), you continue to drag him very gradually more to the right so that he must turn even more (= lose energy) to keep following you. The subsequent roll below his nose just before he will get a shot is consequently also to the right. The reverse ofcourse applies when the attacker is coming in from 7 to 8 o'clock.

BnZ is a game of surprise, discipline and patience more than anything. As defender, you can eliminate surprise by spotting the bandit early. Discipline and patience you can only hope to stretch until either the BnZ-er is willing to mix it up or give up, in that he flies away and looks for an even easier target.
Either way it can make for an interesting game.

Good luck! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
10-09-2008, 04:30 AM
B&Z-ers don't turn, use other weaknesses:

- go down to 2 meters so he will lose you in ground clutter (well, was that pink skin a good idea now?)

- try staying directly under his climb path and make him B&Z into the ground or a friendly forest

- if he is too skilled, call in someone at 3000 m and B&Z him from above, looks soooo fun when the guy is on top of his zoom climbs, hangs in the air and sees your incoming friend just aligning for the turkey shot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

SterlingX
10-09-2008, 06:56 AM
No need, all you need to do is dive slightly to increase speed then pull up and into the path of the boomer to make it a head-on. Not recommended against FW 190s, but against other aircraft the better shot will win.

Woke_Up_Dead
10-09-2008, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
Depends what planes are me and my opponent flying. When I am jumped by a high flying 109 me flying a Russian plane on an Eastern front, I'll go into a shallow dive, carefully watching both my opponent and my speed. Knowing your terminal dive speed is imperative. This should greatly reduce the speed advantage he holds. When he comes into firing range, turn, but only a bit harder compared to him (109s can't turn well at high speeds). When he passes into a zoomclimb, gently turn behind him and follow him. His advantage should now be only a fraction of what he had initially. If he manages to outclimb and boom on you again, repeat the process. Second time, you'll have him.

I tried this once online last night, combined with the repeated advice of "patience" on this thread, it worked quite well actually. It took more than just two passes, but by the third or fourth pass we were at equal altitude, equal speed, and me in the better turning plane. Unfortunately that's when his friend came to the rescue.

Viper2005, what does "climb at Vy" (to close the energy gap) mean?

X32Wright
10-09-2008, 02:58 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif yeah BNZers watch out for each other. Unlike TNBers who do not help each other at all.

P.FunkAdelic
10-10-2008, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif yeah BNZers watch out for each other. Unlike TNBers who do not help each other at all.
Plus BnZers don't help TnBers cause they know the only thanks they'll get is "you stole my kill".