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BillSwagger
12-03-2009, 03:11 PM
I've seen a variety of servers that limit plane sets or have restrictions on how many can fly, and even how many times you can die before you get kicked, so i wondered what else could be used to help keep the game fair and strategic.

Part of me was thinking that a lot of players end up fighting below 2,000m where most planes aren't really designed to fly so i was thinking if i had a server, would there be a way to make it so i could set a minimum altitude that planes needed to stay above?

actually the way to do it would be to allow the pilot to climb to that altitude, lets say 2000m, and once they are above that height for more than a minute they can only go under 2000m for a limited time or be forced to crash.

I think it would help keep the fights at their historic heights, while also keeping people from camping too low over bases. The other thing too, is i often shoot someone down, and then they dive to the deck and limp all the way back to base. So I figure this type of benchmark would add a few other dynamics to the game, but the main reason would be just so that people fly higher and don't end up clustered at 1000ft shooting at each other.

Could this be done?

ImMoreBetter
12-03-2009, 03:15 PM
Air starts at 100,000m. Everyone in Tb-3s.

X32Wright
12-03-2009, 05:35 PM
Much better to 'BAN TNBing' because there are several servers already in existence that 'BANS BNZing'.

If you set a min alt then you have to attract the BNZ crowd only. And how will you actually exforce this min Alt rule? Very hard.

AndyJWest
12-03-2009, 05:52 PM
How high can barrage balloons be set?

If you were to cover the map with enough of them, and hide them in a cloud layer, it would certainly discourage low flying. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Romanator21
12-03-2009, 06:23 PM
I think at about 2800 meters is the max height of balloons. It would be a problem of polys affecting frame rates, and people would just swoop down and get easy balloon kills. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AndyJWest
12-03-2009, 06:36 PM
Romanator, I expect you are right about frame rates, but shooting barrage balloons in cloud might be a bit risky. It was just a thought though...

BillSwagger
12-03-2009, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by X32Wright:
And how will you actually exforce this min Alt rule? Very hard.

Thats why i'm asking cause it seems there are auto kicks for a few other things, why not a min alt rule.
I'd rather auto-crash than auto kick.

If a min height rule could not be set up this way then there is really no reason to discuss it further i was just thinking about it since i usually fly between 10-20k ft and most people linger below me. People tell me this depends on the server, but its true of every server, not every pilot. There are a handful of people who fly higher on some servers, but majority is down at the tree tops jumping each others kills.

I still have fun flying low but the limitations of the sim make it seem more like a video game than a combat sim. If people flew higher and faster it makes for a different experience. I don't expect that everyone would enjoy this type of rule. Its not so much about TnB or BnZ as it is getting the historical use of the plane. Can't say planes never flew low, but it wasn't typical.

All in all, it might be to complex or complicated of a rule for people to grasp. An easier solution would be air starts at 6000m, but for some reason that's not possible, yet.


Bill

ElAurens
12-03-2009, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by AndyJWest:
Romanator, I expect you are right about frame rates, but shooting barrage balloons in cloud might be a bit risky. It was just a thought though...

Why shoot them?

IL2 with Cassettes, or SM 79 with cluster bomb loadout. Death from above.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Oh and BillSwagger, forcing people to fly the way you want them to won't work.

We play for enjoyment, not to be bullied into something.

Just sayin'.

megalopsuche
12-03-2009, 10:09 PM
The easiest way to do it would be with a fantasy map that has a minimum terrain altitude at the altitude you desire.

BillSwagger
12-04-2009, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Oh and BillSwagger, forcing people to fly the way you want them to won't work.

We play for enjoyment, not to be bullied into something.

Just sayin'.



I hear you, mate. Thats not my intention at all. I just figured if it were my server then it would be my rules and anyone who felt forced would just go to another server where you didn't feel forced.


You are forced to fly a certain way on every server anyhow be it through the use of mods, or difficulty settings, or even plane restrictions. This isn't far off from that, it just so happens that the way you are "forced" to fly is also the way you are probably most comfortable flying. I'm really just looking for other ways to get more out of the same product. What i see more of now is people sticking to what they know rather than looking at other ways to gain from the online experience.

It seems flying the Il2 jets is starting to hold my interest a bit more now too.
It would be great to see a new jet server that utilizes the newer plane sets offered by the latest mod packs. It would be great to fly the F-86 and Migs, and i have new found appreciation for the F9F. Most jet sims are a bit of a turn off for me, but there is still a tactical challenge with the '49 planes. Its quite a different feel yet surprising that its still the same Il2 engine. There just aren't any servers that utilize the new planes.



Bill

ElAurens
12-04-2009, 07:38 AM
I agree on the first generation jets.

Normally I absolutely hate kerosene burners.

But these early birds are still "pilot's airplanes". No BVR missles/radar/ECM cr@p to take the fun out of flying them.

They are different though. Blackouts are so very easy when you are cruising at speeds that most piston engined aircraft can barely hit.

Ground pounding takes on a whole new dimension as well.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

triad773
12-04-2009, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Blackouts are so very easy when you are cruising at speeds that most piston engined aircraft can barely hit.


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Hye El- I thought it worth mentioning that some of the black out issue has been addressed in the Mod Pac Coree. As I understand it, it's like the pilot wearing a G suit which they had for the F86, 84, MiG 15.

Frankthetank36
12-04-2009, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
The easiest way to do it would be with a fantasy map that has a minimum terrain altitude at the altitude you desire.

Doesn't the Himalayas map start at like 25K? I tried it and everyone was TnBing (or at least trying to) in Ta-152s.

jamesblonde1979
12-04-2009, 09:14 AM
You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

Giving people an incentive to fly higher is going to be more effective than punishing them for not flying high.

How to do it? I don't know... Choose a high alt planeset and hope that people figure it out.

Tuphlandng
12-04-2009, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by ElAurens:
Oh and BillSwagger, forcing people to fly the way you want them to won't work.

We play for enjoyment, not to be bullied into something.

Just sayin'.



I hear you, mate. Thats not my intention at all. I just figured if it were my server then it would be my rules and anyone who felt forced would just go to another server where you didn't feel forced.

The trick would be to keep the fight above your pre-determined altitude of 2,000 meters. If playing is about points how about no points for kills below 2,000 meters or even negative points?
The problem that I see with specific rules is that some one has to monitor the game if there is no soft ware to do the job. And who wants that job. I my self would rather fly then baby sit a server.
I read in a thread were a player was kicked while gaining altitude. I dont know if he was kicked automatically or the host kicked him but he was a little confused.
Even though I started a lengthy thread on rules I believe that rules should be simple and few and handled with out bias.

Time limits to get to a specific height might be a problem to if you enabled an auto kick as combat is a fluid environment.
Quote
I think it would help keep the fights at their historic heights, while also keeping people from camping too low over bases. The other thing too, is i often shoot someone down, and then they dive to the deck and limp all the way back to base. So I figure this type of benchmark would add a few other dynamics to the game, but the main reason would be just so that people fly higher and don't end up clustered at 1000ft shooting at each other.
End Quote



I believe that catering to specific pilots will be the answer and keep your server busy.

I really hope this makes some kind of sense after reading it it may sound like I am trying to put you down. I really am trying to help with a solution.

You are right though"Your server Your rules"really is the bottom line. If players dont like it they can build there own.

There is a saying in AA"All it takes to start a new meeting is a resentment and a coffee pot"

K_Freddie
12-04-2009, 09:42 AM
The map we had...

An island fortress with all land and sea targets around the island, supported by a local airbase, and medium depth AAA, all within a 4km radius

The other 'attacking' airbase/island was about 15 minutes flying time away.

The results...
Going into a medium to low (torpedo) attack was perilous to say the least. Survivability increased with altitude of the attackers, so the fighting slowly crept higher as everyone got wiser.

The only way I could survive in a stuka attack, was to fly a long 40 minute round-about trip to get my stuka up to ~5000m, and then do an extended dive to bomb release point, then high-tail outa there.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Jumoschwanz
12-04-2009, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:

Part of me was thinking that a lot of players end up fighting below 2,000m where most planes aren't really designed to fly"


I think it would help keep the fights at their historic heights,

while also keeping people from camping too low over bases. The other thing too, is i often shoot someone down, and then they dive to the deck and limp all the way back to base.


Wow, planes are not designed to fly below 2000 meters huh? How do they take off?

Historic heights? You better read some more history books. The only reason there were ever fighters at high altitude was to cover or attack high altitude bombers, and high altitude bombing was a small part of WWII. Most ground attack was done by fighters or fighter-bombers, and many fighters were covering and destroying those. Ever hear of a Rhubarb mission?

The entire air-war on the eastern front took place at low altitude because there was hardly any high altitude bombing.

You just killed Chuck Yeager too. In his book he said all dogfights that started up high ended up going down to the deck, just like they happen with this sim.

Lots of fighter aircraft attacked airbases in WWII, in fact airbases were prime strategic targets in WWII and were attacked by everything from the man on foot, to single engine fighters on rhubarbs to heavy bombers to artillery.

You are another know-nothing that wants to create an idealized version of WWII and of war period to suit your personal preferences. And that is OKAY! But if you try to sell your ignorance and twisted realities as fact here someone is going to call you on it.

K_Freddie
12-04-2009, 12:39 PM
Somebody got out on the wrong side of their bed this morning.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Sillius_Sodus
12-04-2009, 01:08 PM
I guess one way to do it would be to air spawn everybody at 6000+ meters but I don't think the game allows you to do that. Perhaps servers running Zuti's MDS stuff could do something with the ai to keep it up high. I don't know enough about that though.

BillSwagger
12-04-2009, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:

Part of me was thinking that a lot of players end up fighting below 2,000m where most planes aren't really designed to fly"


I think it would help keep the fights at their historic heights,

while also keeping people from camping too low over bases. The other thing too, is i often shoot someone down, and then they dive to the deck and limp all the way back to base.


Wow, planes are not designed to fly below 2000 meters huh? How do they take off?

Historic heights? You better read some more history books. The only reason there were ever fighters at high altitude was to cover or attack high altitude bombers, and high altitude bombing was a small part of WWII. Most ground attack was done by fighters or fighter-bombers, and many fighters were covering and destroying those. Ever hear of a Rhubarb mission?

The entire air-war on the eastern front took place at low altitude because there was hardly any high altitude bombing.

You just killed Chuck Yeager too. In his book he said all dogfights that started up high ended up going down to the deck, just like they happen with this sim.

Lots of fighter aircraft attacked airbases in WWII, in fact airbases were prime strategic targets in WWII and were attacked by everything from the man on foot, to single engine fighters on rhubarbs to heavy bombers to artillery.

You are another know-nothing that wants to create an idealized version of WWII and of war period to suit your personal preferences. And that is OKAY! But if you try to sell your ignorance and twisted realities as fact here someone is going to call you on it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


What? lol...this is way off base, and quite out of context. Not so much the historical details your regurgitating, but your approach to the topic of this thread clearly indicates you missed the point of it.

I'm not intending to get into a historical spat, but consider that i see B-17s flying at 5000ft to their targets quite often, i can only say that having a "high altitude" server might offer another dynamic to play on.
I think setting a minimum height also mixes things up from the monotony of what i see as routine on most servers.
Hopefully, no one is taking offense to this, or i'm not sounding too pompous in my approach. Its just another idea for a server.

It isn't to say low altitude missions never occurred, and the use of altitude surrounded the mission objectives. Difference is that online, people aren't usually carrying ordinance to a ground target to bomb when they fly at 2000ft. They fly low and fight low, which wasn't a typical escort or patrol tactic.



on a side note:

The entire air-war on the eastern front took place at low altitude because there was hardly any high altitude bombing.

http://www.lonesentry.com/arti...an-combat-fw190.html (http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/russian-combat-fw190.html)
This is an intelligence report that specifies how crucial it was for the Russian planes to have an altitude advantage from the start of the engagement. I also think "low altitude" gets tossed around when describing the eastern front because it is in contrast of the west's use of high altitude tactics. Russian planes were still operating from 20,000ft, and specific escort roles required Yaks fly 5000ft above their convoys. I don't need to lecture you, you can use that site to look up more relevant information.



Bill

Jumoschwanz
12-05-2009, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
The other thing too, is i often shoot someone down, and then they dive to the deck and limp all the way back to base.

You poor, poor baby, I hope the mod community will band together and help you develop ways you can be a bad pilot, shot etc. and still get kills.

How dare those pilots that you superficially damage fly back to base, that is really rude of them.

Learning to shoot and fly this sim, and learning to hack it on a server that has anything in common with reality is really tough huh?

Can't someone figure out how this poor man can enable ACE AI for himself online full time?

Also add some sort of switch in "difficulty" for him so he on his server any slight hit on an aircraft will make it explode like an A-bomb.

Today, mid-Saturday, there are 61 empty servers on Hyperlobby, your will make it 62.

S!


P.S., psssssst, secret: If someone makes it back to base, then I don't think you have shot them down........duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

TheGrunch
12-06-2009, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
*the ramblings of a mentally-deficient troll*
Jesus Christ, you're a stupid f**king c**t if you can't see what he's getting at.

Anyway Bill, I reckon all you'd need would be some way of adding a wait time of...oh...between 2 and 5 minutes between being killed and being able to hit refly. Might make people a bit less casual about immediately throwing away their virtual lives by making a beeline straight for the bottom of the nearest furball. Make them use a bit of altitude just for survival's sake.