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LeadSpitter_
02-11-2005, 12:09 AM
In the latest few patchs after 3.0 I seen you reduced the rudder effectiveness's of the corsair ki84 mustang ki43 wildcat p40s zekes which is excellent solution to stop the so called
"ufoing" planes.

It also seems you changed how much rudder puts these aircraft into a flopping stall which bleeds of all E which is a great feature and gives you a huge e bleed penalty for putting the ac over its edge. corsair ki84 mustang ki43 wildcat p40s zekes

This is an excellent solution to the problem of very arcadish looking sideways barrel rolls and fish flopping instant catch recovery behavior alot of the ac still have in 3.04.

This desperately needs to be done to many of the russian ac as well as the bf109 spitfire and 190 which still have the so called dredded ufo effect from extremely over effective rudders which can be used very violently with no consiquences and creates the UFO effect and with instant flop catches.

The corsair ki84 mustang and other had this same ability in previous patches of the game but have been corrected v3.0 and i hope this is implimented on the ones who still need it.

The 109s spitfires 190s yaks laggs mig las need this done badly like oleg has done to the corsair ki84 mustang ki43 zekes wildcats and others which is the most excellent solution to the problem.

So im hoping you will add this to the ac mentioned above to reduce the flopping full 100% fast rudder response insta stall catches with minimal e bleed and do not initiate a hard to recover stall.

Its seems like a great solution to the so called arcadish fm problem making the game a bit more realistic and I hope its implemented.

All you hear on the forums are complaints about the spitfire being a ufo but fact is yak lagg la 190 109 spit all have the same rudder ability which does not put you into a flopping stall which makes these ac hover and perform som out of this world manuevers, tail slides or slide slip were ment to bleed off E not to hover around with your plane flying sideways while going in a forward direction.

I have no seen anyone post about this but myself it seems not many have noticed these changes but they are great.

Im sure you all remember the corsair in 3.0 and the ki84 similiar to how the spit 109s and 190s are performing now.

still after your changes ac like the zeke and ki43 still have thier elevator authority but the rudder is what made manuevers look very fake in 3.0 now its excellent.

I think you and the team did an excellent job making the corsair p51 and ki84 somewhat more realistic and hope the do this to the others that need it done desperately. Yes I realize this will cause whines and many forums posts about the topic but it needs to be done.

I also hope the aircraft that immediatly nose over when off runway even slow speed gets looked at as well p40 ki43 zeke tb3s even with full back pressure on the stick.

LeadSpitter_
02-11-2005, 12:09 AM
In the latest few patchs after 3.0 I seen you reduced the rudder effectiveness's of the corsair ki84 mustang ki43 wildcat p40s zekes which is excellent solution to stop the so called
"ufoing" planes.

It also seems you changed how much rudder puts these aircraft into a flopping stall which bleeds of all E which is a great feature and gives you a huge e bleed penalty for putting the ac over its edge. corsair ki84 mustang ki43 wildcat p40s zekes

This is an excellent solution to the problem of very arcadish looking sideways barrel rolls and fish flopping instant catch recovery behavior alot of the ac still have in 3.04.

This desperately needs to be done to many of the russian ac as well as the bf109 spitfire and 190 which still have the so called dredded ufo effect from extremely over effective rudders which can be used very violently with no consiquences and creates the UFO effect and with instant flop catches.

The corsair ki84 mustang and other had this same ability in previous patches of the game but have been corrected v3.0 and i hope this is implimented on the ones who still need it.

The 109s spitfires 190s yaks laggs mig las need this done badly like oleg has done to the corsair ki84 mustang ki43 zekes wildcats and others which is the most excellent solution to the problem.

So im hoping you will add this to the ac mentioned above to reduce the flopping full 100% fast rudder response insta stall catches with minimal e bleed and do not initiate a hard to recover stall.

Its seems like a great solution to the so called arcadish fm problem making the game a bit more realistic and I hope its implemented.

All you hear on the forums are complaints about the spitfire being a ufo but fact is yak lagg la 190 109 spit all have the same rudder ability which does not put you into a flopping stall which makes these ac hover and perform som out of this world manuevers, tail slides or slide slip were ment to bleed off E not to hover around with your plane flying sideways while going in a forward direction.

I have no seen anyone post about this but myself it seems not many have noticed these changes but they are great.

Im sure you all remember the corsair in 3.0 and the ki84 similiar to how the spit 109s and 190s are performing now.

still after your changes ac like the zeke and ki43 still have thier elevator authority but the rudder is what made manuevers look very fake in 3.0 now its excellent.

I think you and the team did an excellent job making the corsair p51 and ki84 somewhat more realistic and hope the do this to the others that need it done desperately. Yes I realize this will cause whines and many forums posts about the topic but it needs to be done.

I also hope the aircraft that immediatly nose over when off runway even slow speed gets looked at as well p40 ki43 zeke tb3s even with full back pressure on the stick.

Fehler
02-11-2005, 03:07 AM
Huh?

UFO status is received from never losing energy in loop after loop. How does one do a rudder loop?

Ahh, perhaps that is how one gets to 630KPH in a Bf109 G6! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BTW you do bleed E when you side slip, and you do go faster when the ball is centered. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Well, you were right about one thing for sure!

(Title of the thread: Something no one has mentioned (Before) Oleg)

The FW190 is a UFO! I am sure no one has ever said that before. Perhaps there is a reason why... Duh!

ImpStarDuece
02-11-2005, 04:09 AM
I know what Lead means and I agree whit him up to a point.

If you stall out a 109 or a spitfire often you can simply "stop" the stall by twisting your rudder full in the opposite direction to stop the spin developing. It happens like magic on a soft stall or if you stall out on a manouver where most of your momentum is going fowards.

Oleg has clipped the wings of a few birds in their ability to do this though. Two of my favourites, the Hurri and the Jug, can no longer "catch" the stall like they used to. I have flown into the ground more than one because of my usual complacency with regards to stalls. So it is not a universal problem like it used to be. At the moment, as far as I can see, its limited to a few of the better turn fighters.

Actually, as far as I can tell most of the stall modelling has been redone for PF. I find it MUCH easier to stall a plane, get into an unrecoverable spin or wing dip on take off, than at any time since the original IL2. It has actually mabe me concentrait more, be aware of how i'm flying and put the personality back into a lot of birds.

GR142-Pipper
02-11-2005, 05:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Huh?

UFO status is received from never losing energy in loop after loop. How does one do a rudder loop? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's not so much in a loop as it is in a reversal at high speed. Aircraft like the 109 can rudder-reverse at high speed, experience no pilot black out and still retain energy. Very unnatural...and unreal.

GR142-Pipper

S.taibanzai
02-11-2005, 09:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
Huh?

UFO status is received from never losing energy in loop after loop. How does one do a rudder loop? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's not so much in a loop as it is in a reversal at high speed. Aircraft like the 109 can rudder-reverse at high speed, experience no pilot black out and still retain energy. Very unnatural...and unreal.

GR142-Pipper <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

@Pipper you are a whiner ,why !!! you always mention in your posts only the axis planes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif

so sh.t the f..k up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif


@leadspitter good point and post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

LeadSpitter_
02-11-2005, 11:47 PM
fehler first off I have never said that speed for the 109g6 but 560kmh for a couple seconds at SL porpoising "dipping the nose down and up" which im sure you can do before overheat which is possible. Anyways why bring that up here? As for 630kmh where did you get that I have never said it? And is more then possible in a dive

I think you guys get so pissed when a reasonable solution is brought to hand as has been done to other aircraft which had the so called ufo problem.

I fly the 190as most out of any planes and dont tell me we dont have the ability of some amazing flopping half stall flopping manuvers or a rolling dive with fast rudder use which we can still out run a enemy on out six of equal E and immediate catch manuevers hence the dubbed ufo manuever,

The p51 use to have it so did the corsair, ki84, zekes, ki43 and others which were corrected but i dare mention the german planes have it as well I get flammed? They had it since day one just like the yaks la lagg3 etc, so whats wrong with a penalty for putting the aircraft over its edge?

Comeon now be reasonable and please dont start arguements in here. I should have wrote to oleg directly but posted here instead to get the others take on this which i respect and see if they see and noticed the same things.

Im sure we all see the allies talk about the ufo germans and the axis talk about the allies ufo planes.

Its not like I thought of this idea but the 1c team did and it works well and solves the solution of the flopping minimal E bleed shady looking behavior of ac when going over the edge of a stall.

Just some cant bare to see thier favorite planes on the list.

robban75 BBB_hyperion and others I would like to see your thoughts on this, same with many of the greatergreen crowd who fly all planesets. and have device link charts and test programs

Nubarus
02-12-2005, 02:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
_The FW190 is a UFO!_ I am sure no one has ever said that before. Perhaps there is a reason why... Duh! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It seems Fehler forgot about the instant elevator control at extreme speeds without blackout effect the 190 once had after a patch.

What really was rather funny was that a large number of Axis players posted on various forums how correct the 190 was in IL2 FB and praised Oleg to the heavens. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Badsight.
02-12-2005, 02:33 AM
yea FB v1.22

them were the days , most all-round accurate patch ever

LeadSpitter_
02-12-2005, 03:54 AM
I wouldnt say that badsight 1.22 had alot of probs too.

1.22 was the patch of the invunerable 190 right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

robban75
02-12-2005, 04:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nubarus:
It seems Fehler forgot about the instant elevator control at extreme speeds without blackout effect the 190 once had after a patch.

What really was rather funny was that a large number of Axis players posted on various forums how correct the 190 was in IL2 FB and praised Oleg to the heavens. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears that your memory doens't correlate with what really happened. Those of us who fly the 190 and really want it to be as realistic as possible, didn't "praise" that highly overdone elevator(and aileron)effectiveness. The 190 felt very arcade back then, and I didn't feel comfortable flying it at all, as it was shaky and very unstable, especially in the rolling plane. This is something that has yet to be fixed IMO. And the Fw 190 is still the most unstable gun platform in the game because of this.

LeadSpitter_
02-12-2005, 04:46 AM
I agree with you robban can you please comment about the rudder and ufoness of these ac, spit 190s 109s yak lagg la the rudder is also why the 190 is not a stable gunplatform as it should be and planes that were not stable gunplatforms like the zero are,

the corsair p51 ki84 ki43 zekes were some planes in 3.0 had very over responsive elevators which were immediatly called UFO behavior.

These have been corrected and resolved the problem.

the 190 109 spitfires yak lag mig la hurricane and some others still have the rudders like the corsair and ki84 did in 3.0

this seems to be the perfect fix of the fm problem of ufo behavior and has worked well for the mustang corsair ki84 ki43 zeke etc on making them more realistic which is a great thing.

Many planes have the rudder yaw when banking left or right like the p51 for example which is the same as the 109 and 190s yaw which is in the fm and happens even with no rudder. to be honest i dont see the 190 being any less stable then the 51 ki84 corsair etc.

I would like you to reply about my post instead of the kids argueing.

NorrisMcWhirter
02-12-2005, 04:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
yea FB v1.22

them were the days , most all-round accurate patch ever <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah yes...v1.22. The patch where the 20mm worked.

There's one I can relay to my grandkids..."Now, back in the dim and distant past, before the evil marketers got their hands on it, we used to have a gun that did something..."

There's nostalgia for you.

Cheers,
Norris

LeadSpitter_
02-12-2005, 06:07 AM
norris flame elsewhere please, and robban75 if you can comment on what im saying it would be appreciated.

Nubarus
02-12-2005, 06:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nubarus:
It seems Fehler forgot about the instant elevator control at extreme speeds without blackout effect the 190 once had after a patch.

What really was rather funny was that a large number of Axis players posted on various forums how correct the 190 was in IL2 FB and praised Oleg to the heavens. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears that your memory doens't correlate with what really happened. Those of us who fly the 190 and really want it to be as realistic as possible, didn't "praise" that highly overdone elevator(and aileron)effectiveness. The 190 felt very arcade back then, and I didn't feel comfortable flying it at all, as it was shaky and very unstable, especially in the rolling plane. This is something that has yet to be fixed IMO. And the Fw 190 is still the most unstable gun platform in the game because of this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't mean the respected ones like yourself Robban.
I remember you posting a video of a 190 dive and a pull out just above the ground over an airfield to convince others it was a tad overdone in that department.

LeadSpitter_
02-12-2005, 07:35 AM
bump for robban75s reply

robban75
02-12-2005, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
I agree with you robban can you please comment about the rudder and ufoness of these ac, spit 190s 109s yak lagg la the rudder is also why the 190 is not a stable gunplatform as it should be and planes that were not stable gunplatforms like the zero are,

the corsair p51 ki84 ki43 zekes were some planes in 3.0 had very over responsive elevators which were immediatly called UFO behavior.

These have been corrected and resolved the problem.

the 190 109 spitfires yak lag mig la hurricane and some others still have the rudders like the corsair and ki84 did in 3.0

this seems to be the perfect fix of the fm problem of ufo behavior and has worked well for the mustang corsair ki84 ki43 zeke etc on making them more realistic which is a great thing.

Many planes have the rudder yaw when banking left or right like the p51 for example which is the same as the 109 and 190s yaw which is in the fm and happens even with no rudder. to be honest i dont see the 190 being any less stable then the 51 ki84 corsair etc.

I would like you to reply about my post instead of the kids argueing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have noticed that rudder is seldom needed when flying planes like the Spitfire, La and 109. The Yak-3 on the otherhand seems alot less stable when riding close to the stall, and especially in the vertical.
The Fw 190 is very unstable, much thanks to its control effectiveness. I've tried adjusting this sensitivity several times but I have yet to find a setting that works well. The Fw 190 also has a very fast rolling motion to the left when the stick is centered. Most planes roll to the left when not trimmed, but for the Fw 190 it is much more marked for some reason. See below.

I did some quick testings and from wings level to a 45 degree bank.

D-9 - :32
A-4 - :38
G-2 - :45
P51 - :46
IXc - 1:08
La7 - 1:12

I don't know if it's just my joystick that is poorly calibrated, so if someone could try this also, it would be appreciated.

The rudder on the 190 is very sensetive, much more sensetive that the real thing. Well, according to Eric Brown anyways. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
This makes for difficult aiming and precision flying is also made more difficult. I find it much easier to hit targets when flying other planes. From what I've read the 190 should be a more stable gun platform than the 109, but in the game the 109 feels alot more stable than the 190.

robban75
02-12-2005, 07:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nubarus:
I didn't mean the respected ones like yourself Robban.
I remember you posting a video of a 190 dive and a pull out just above the ground over an airfield to convince others it was a tad overdone in that department. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the kind words Nubarus! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Yeah I remember that one. Diving straight down at high speed and pulling up to level flight in 2 seconds. Poor pilot I'd say!

LeadSpitter_
02-12-2005, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
I agree with you robban can you please comment about the rudder and ufoness of these ac, spit 190s 109s yak lagg la the rudder is also why the 190 is not a stable gunplatform as it should be and planes that were not stable gunplatforms like the zero are,

the corsair p51 ki84 ki43 zekes were some planes in 3.0 had very over responsive elevators which were immediatly called UFO behavior.

These have been corrected and resolved the problem.

the 190 109 spitfires yak lag mig la hurricane and some others still have the rudders like the corsair and ki84 did in 3.0

this seems to be the perfect fix of the fm problem of ufo behavior and has worked well for the mustang corsair ki84 ki43 zeke etc on making them more realistic which is a great thing.

Many planes have the rudder yaw when banking left or right like the p51 for example which is the same as the 109 and 190s yaw which is in the fm and happens even with no rudder. to be honest i dont see the 190 being any less stable then the 51 ki84 corsair etc.

I would like you to reply about my post instead of the kids argueing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have noticed that rudder is seldom needed when flying planes like the Spitfire, La and 109. The Yak-3 on the otherhand seems alot less stable when riding close to the stall, and especially in the vertical.
The Fw 190 is very unstable, much thanks to its control effectiveness. I've tried adjusting this sensitivity several times but I have yet to find a setting that works well. The Fw 190 also has a very fast rolling motion to the left when the stick is centered. Most planes roll to the left when not trimmed, but for the Fw 190 it is much more marked for some reason. See below.

I did some quick testings and from wings level to a 45 degree bank.

D-9 - :32
A-4 - :38
G-2 - :45
P51 - :46
IXc - 1:08
La7 - 1:12

I don't know if it's just my joystick that is poorly calibrated, so if someone could try this also, it would be appreciated.

The rudder on the 190 is very sensetive, much more sensetive that the real thing. Well, according to Eric Brown anyways. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
This makes for difficult aiming and precision flying is also made more difficult. I find it much easier to hit targets when flying other planes. From what I've read the 190 should be a more stable gun platform than the 109, but in the game the 109 feels alot more stable than the 190. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im not speaking of the rudder sway but how fast it can be used 100% left and right without initiating a stall or when in a bank not initiating a stall, this is also why when the plane flips we can catch it instantly.

Do you remember the ki84 and corsair in version pf 3.0 it has the same problem and was corrected along with many others like the p51 which use to perform same really amazing fake manuevers like the spits 190s 109s can perform as well as the yak la lagg etc.

try using very fast rudder use back and forth in the ki84 zeke corsair p51 ki43 in a climbing bank.

then try it with the 190 109 spitfire yak lagg la etc with very fast side to side 100% rudder.

Badsight.
02-12-2005, 12:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
I wouldnt say that badsight 1.22 had alot of probs too.

1.22 was the patch of the invunerable 190 right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
no

the FW-190 had the same DM all the way to AEP

& yes , v1.22 was the most all round accurate patch across all the planes we had then

Badsight.
02-12-2005, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
also why the 190 is not a stable gunplatform as it should be and planes that were not stable gunplatforms like the zero are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>fast rolling planes , like the Hayate , FW-190 , Mig-3 , are inherently un-stable gear to use , moving the gunsite all around in this game

& slower rolling planes like the LaGGs & the Zeros move slower & hold their gunsites more still when your lining up your shot

robban75
02-12-2005, 12:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Im not speaking of the rudder sway but how fast it can be used 100% left and right without initiating a stall or when in a bank not initiating a stall, this is also why when the plane flips we can catch it instantly.

Do you remember the ki84 and corsair in version pf 3.0 it has the same problem and was corrected along with many others like the p51 which use to perform same really amazing fake manuevers like the spits 190s 109s can perform as well as the yak la lagg etc.

try using very fast rudder use back and forth in the ki84 zeke corsair p51 ki43 in a climbing bank.

then try it with the 190 109 spitfire yak lagg la etc with very fast side to side 100% rudder. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, ok. I tried it and I found that the Mustang and Fw 190A-5, Fw 190D-9, Ta 152H responded very quickly to full rudder input, and all of them went into a violent spin, especially when left rudder was used.

The Spitfire, Ki-43 and 109 were much more stable. None of these entered a spin when right rudder was used, and when left rudder was used the 109 was the only one that would spin.

quiet_man
02-12-2005, 01:22 PM
isn't there a difference between controls response and stability?

off course at airplanes with high effective controls it is possible to oversteer, but imho this is no stability issue.

stability issue would be when the nose is wandering all over the place or starts oszilating without control input

with exception of the Go??? jet, is there any (in)stability is modeled?
I think you can trim any plane at any speed to fly near perfect straigth

some planes (but I don't think 190 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) would be much more difficult to fly with this modelled

quiet_man

LeadSpitter_
02-13-2005, 10:03 AM
I think you need to install 3.0 robban75 to see what im speaking of and to see the differences