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View Full Version : Not burning planes, incendiary power of shells, can we get some clue ?



Tipo_Man
01-27-2007, 06:28 AM
Well I saw the reports of the missing incendiary power of some MGs and decided to test myslef.

I was struck to see some DM discrepancies...


1. Some MGs have no incendiary power at all! These are
Breda SAFAT 7.7
Breda SAFAT 12.7

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/TipoMan/BredaSAFAT.gif


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/TipoMan/zero.jpg

Please, try to set on fire some plane with these. I couldn't...


2. German 7.92 MG seems to have HE rounds ! Look at the picture.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/TipoMan/MG17_HEJPG.jpg

It's power seems dramatically increased , several hits are enough to de-wing a Zero.


3. 0.50 Browning, 12.7 Berezin are very powerful, but sometimes lack incendiary power.
Both are very inconsitent in setting planes on fire. Sometimes it looks like they completely miss API shells...


4. Light MGs like 7.62 ShKAS and .303 Browning have very/suspiciously good incendiary power, when compared to bigger MGs...

JG52Karaya-X
01-27-2007, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by Tipo_Man:
2. German 7.92 MG seems to have HE rounds ! Look at the picture.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/TipoMan/MG17_HEJPG.jpg

It's power seems dramatically increased , several hits are enough to de-wing a Zero.

The MG17 did have HE rounds in real-life, the "B-Geschoss".


SmK ammunition was AP with a hard steel core and a lead sleeve. The probable explanation of the acronym is Spitzgeschoss mit Kern, pointed ball with core. PmK also had a steel core, but the core was surrounded by phosphorus, which ignited when the round was fired. Finally B-Geschoß was a Beobachtungs or observation round: It had a small HE charge and some incendiary material, and exploded on contact with the target. In this way the pilot was able to verify that he was hitting the target. During the Battle of Britain, the British used the Dixon-De Wilde round for similar purposes, and pilots generally felt that this was extremely useful.

As to its ingame effectiveness, I wouldnt say its harder hitting than the .30CAL or .303s and the ShKas on the other hand is much harder hitting, especially when it comes to setting fuel tanks on fire.

DKoor
01-27-2007, 07:52 AM
This issue has been debated over at General Discussion and it's a good thing that you've started this thread here.

I hope this will be adressed because this is a serious bug. Planes are filled with highly flammable gasoline and they all must burn quite easily if hit many times in fuel tanks.

That does not happen player in fact has much bigger chances to inflict structural damage with HMG than to set plane on fire in spite of aiming directly on fuel tanks.


Originally posted by tigertalon:
...
Firstly, yak1 using only two cowling ShKAS 7,62mm guns:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/th_ShKAS_fighters.jpg (http://s155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/?action=view&current=ShKAS_fighters.flv)

and here with P-39Q-10, twin nose mounted .50 cal M2s:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/th_M2_fighters.jpg (http://s155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/?action=view&current=M2_fighters.flv)
...

Everyone should see that something is very wrong here.

And yes, those debates on zillion pages over nothing are not constructive they are on the contrary very unproductive because I've seen that some people really try just to flame the issue from being taken seriously. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tipo_Man
01-27-2007, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:

The MG17 did have HE rounds in real-life, the "B-Geschoss".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">SmK ammunition was AP with a hard steel core and a lead sleeve. The probable explanation of the acronym is Spitzgeschoss mit Kern, pointed ball with core. PmK also had a steel core, but the core was surrounded by phosphorus, which ignited when the round was fired. Finally B-Geschoß was a Beobachtungs or observation round: It had a small HE charge and some incendiary material, and exploded on contact with the target. In this way the pilot was able to verify that he was hitting the target. During the Battle of Britain, the British used the Dixon-De Wilde round for similar purposes, and pilots generally felt that this was extremely useful.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, at least it's something new for us since in the list Oleg has given for shell modelling in the sim there was no HE round for the MG17:
MG 17
// AP - AP - APT
AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 810.0
power = 0


Furthermore for such a low calibre HE round it's almost impossible to have any fragmentation effect.

The round you are talking about was intended only to make visual "splashes", not to destroy the target with its fragments....

JG52Karaya-X
01-27-2007, 02:46 PM
Yea but isnt that ammunition list like... ancient? Must be pre-AEP at least and lots and lots of weapons have been changed since then:

.50s http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

MG shells on the 151/20s

Italian guns

and I think I remember that the MG17 was changed somtime between AEP and PF... we now get a consecutive row of 4 or 5 tracer rounds with that gun which show impact flashes and then a number of invisible rounds


Furthermore for such a low calibre HE round it's almost impossible to have any fragmentation effect.

The round you are talking about was intended only to make visual "splashes", not to destroy the target with its fragments....

But then again arcade mode only shows the flight path of fragments, not their power and how far they penetrated into the aircraft so we cant really say wether those fragments actually do any damage worth mentioning.

VMF-214_HaVoK
01-27-2007, 04:43 PM
I dont have no tracks but I must tell you that I set planes a blaze with regularity. Just last nite I had about 13 or so kills in Zekes vs Wildcats and every kill but maybe 3 there was a flame at some point. Victims included Zeros, Vals, Bettys, Franks, Tonys, and KI-100s. My air hit% was about 6.5 during that session I believe and all kills were with .50 cals.

FritzGryphon
01-27-2007, 10:55 PM
I have no idea where this info comes from, but I found a belt loading for Breda-SAFAT 12.7

BREDA SAFAT 12.7
- 12,7 x 81SR
- 700 RPM
- 760 m/s
- 35,4 gm - AP
- 29 kg
- red
- HET - AP - HE - AP

Came from here. http://free-st.htnet.hr/dvd/Weapons.html

It's also worthwhile to note, that this gun sucks. I mean, 760m/s at 700RPM?

FritzGryphon
01-27-2007, 11:29 PM
Breda SAFAT 12.7 can start fires.

http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon2/fire1.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon2/fire2.jpg

The Ju-52s light up easily. The B-17 on the other hand took a dozen tries and 5 minutes of hosing.

Either the bullets don't have much incendiary ability at all, or the low velocity of the gun doesn't allow the bullets to reach internal components on all but the weakest planes.

You'll often see this with other guns at long ranges. No amount of hits will start a fire. Get a little closer, and fires start immediately. In this case, the Breda is too weak to start fires at any range on some of the stronger planes.

In any case, the behavior is weird, and I hope we won't see it in SoW.

WWMaxGunz
01-28-2007, 02:41 AM
I thought the Breda explosive rounds were supposed to be so good that the Japanese copied them?

Tipo_Man
01-28-2007, 04:08 AM
Thanks for the testing guys....

I also managed to bake some planes with 12,7 BredaSAFAT, but so far have no success with 7.7 BredaSAFAT against Ki-43, Zero or SB (AKA flying torches) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Well, I also remember that Soviets were quite impressed by BredaSAFAT guns on FiatCR42 they met in Spain. Especially by it's HE round...

Further testing revealed really weird guns performance.
ShKAS seems like a flamethrower...
One single hit in fuel tanks is enough in most cases to bake a Zero or Ki.. Here is a picture:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/TipoMan/UltraShKAS.jpg

I think I can declare a contest:

Try to place more than 4 hits from a ShkAS in the wing root of a Zero or Ki-43, WITHOUT setting them on fire.


I simply gave up!

Now try to set them on fire with BredaSAFAT or Browning .50. The latter would most likely dewing them, but in most cases wont start a fire.
This is ridiculous and makes early war battles very funny. We have concrete planes like I-16, I-153, IAR-80 , LaGG-3 and absolutely impotent MGs to fight them...