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sailorman.jim
02-21-2007, 03:52 PM
I have version 4.04 via d/l. Often the pitch control is so bad the aircraft will bob up and down so violently, it is impossible to line up a shot. I have tried various joystick setting but nothing makes a difference.

Also, in the full mission builder, the available missions (very few) are the same ones as the single mission builder. I am close to asking for a refund. That's how frustrated this has made me.

fly_zo
02-21-2007, 04:34 PM
Wooow, calm down.
We all had problems you so frustrated with, now go to Community Help forum and ask for help(guys are great there). Wobble problem is known issue for 4.04 version but it can be tuned down via conf.ini file (game root dir) joystick section:

[rts_joystick]
X=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
Y=0 5 14 25 35 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
RZ=0 3 7 13 19 28 41 51 66 84 100 0
U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
FF=0
1X=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1Y=0 5 14 25 35 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1RZ=0 3 7 13 19 28 41 51 66 84 100 0
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0

at the end of each line must be zero, check yours and edit it(notepad).
More stuff in here:

http://www.airwarfare.com

Now regarding full mission builder, you can build your own missions there, placing ships and object, add as many flights as you like. For learning FMB go here:
Mission Builder Guide by Nutcase
http://www.il2-fullmissionbuilder.com/index.html

for user made missions and campaigns (watch for version compatibility):

user made campaigns list compiled by great guy HotSpace:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/50910533/m/3471086183

or sites:
http://mission4today.com
http://www.flying-legends.net/

welcome and don't give up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

sailorman.jim
02-21-2007, 05:26 PM
Thanks, I have made the changes you listed. I'll try it out now. I had a couple of extra lines you didn't show so left those alone. I suspect they are because my joystick is a 3-axis unit, with the third being the rudder, of course. I'll check out the other places you mentioned tomorrow.

Thanks again, I appreciate it.

sailorman.jim
02-21-2007, 05:57 PM
Sorry to say, that made no noticeable difference. Too bad because the game had potential. Good thing I didn't have a lot invested in it.

VW-IceFire
02-21-2007, 06:17 PM
Maybe there is something wrong with your stick? Or you're not trimming the plane? There shouldn't be that much bob up and down...try a stable plane like the Zero. It should be very kind on the handling and also be quite dull.

fly_zo
02-21-2007, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by sailorman.jim:
Sorry to say, that made no noticeable difference. Too bad because the game had potential. Good thing I didn't have a lot invested in it.

sorry it didn't help. Like IceFire has mention, trimming is essential, assign buttons on your stick for elevator trim (you need to trim with every changes of speed) Did you try flying with difficulty settings lowered down? In versions pre 4.07, controls are very sensitive and it takes time (one plane at the time) to get used to it.

with regards,

-HH-Quazi
02-21-2007, 06:33 PM
Try these settings. Just replace your X & Y lines under [rts_joystick] with these:

X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0

If your elevator is still too sensitive. try these settings for your X= line:

X=0 1 3 7 13 24 35 48 63 81 100 0

As you can see, you can come up with even less sensitivity if you need to.

Spinnetti
02-21-2007, 06:39 PM
For what its worth, I didn't even install drivers for my joystick (X45 and CH pro rudder pedals).. I have no bob or any other wierdness. I didn't mod the stick settings at all or anything else.

Remember this is a sim not a FPS.. It took me a he11 of a long time to learn to fly the damn thing, making it all the more rewarding when I do it right..

Theres lots of good info on here.. take some time and read up, and in the end you will be rewarded with a great sim if you can come up to speed before giving up.

MiamiEagle
02-22-2007, 07:10 AM
Maybe just maybe your problem is your Joystick. Have you tried to fly with another Joytick?

MiamiEagle
02-22-2007, 07:13 AM
I had the same problem a long time ago. I do not remember what I did to fix it but do not give up.Keep working at it. Its worth it!

sailorman.jim
02-22-2007, 11:53 AM
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I have used a different joystick with no improvement. In addition, I have several other flight simulators and have no problems with any of them with this joystick.

In any case, I have already applied for a refund. I am certain that will solve the problem.

XyZspineZyX
02-22-2007, 02:41 PM
Did you patch up the game? And have you tried the trimming? This sim is very trim intensive.

Also, what plane are you using?

sailorman.jim
02-22-2007, 03:04 PM
I think the actual problem has nothing to do with the joystick. All planes seem to bob up and down excessively whether the joystick is moved or not. I think it is something to do with the config file that does not provide enough longitudinal stability.

I've used this same joystick with at least four other simulators and none have this problem.

Thanks again for all the replies.

FoolTrottel
02-22-2007, 03:13 PM
Still sounds like it's all about stick-sensitivity settings... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

If yer in for some more testing, get the IL2-Sticks utility, and load the profile 'Brown's.ini' (it comes with the download/install). Those are very dumbed down settings.
(Link to IL2-Sticks download is in my sig.)

Just try 'm.

If you state what brand/model of stick you are using, someone with the same stick might share his settings...

Good Luck!

FluffyDucks2
02-23-2007, 10:02 AM
I think you will find that you are not TRIMMING your aircraft, if you dont trim most a/c will bob up and down continually as well as yawing..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Its not the game....its the pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

XyZspineZyX
02-23-2007, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by FluffyDucks2:
I think you will find that you are not TRIMMING your aircraft, if you dont trim most a/c will bob up and down continually as well as yawing..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Its not the game....its the pilot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

Wha?? His elevator trim makes him bob up and down?

Not bloody likely http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Does poor yaw trim make your plane's tail flah back and forth? No.

It seems very much as if high stick sensitivity is producing Pilot Induced Oscillation

sailorman.jim
02-23-2007, 10:33 AM
This has nothing to do with trim or my joystick. No trim used has ever chenged anything even the slightest amount. I currently use the joystick with MS FS X, MS CFS 3 and Micro Flight 5.0 and a couple of other ones in the past. None of these have this or any other problem.

In addition, there are other problems with PF. For example, often in a steep bank, all aircraft will suddenly steepen the bank and crash. There is no stall warning or any other warning. Joystick inputs are ignored. Also, the autopilot frequently crashes all planes.

The game (NOT a simulator) is flawed. Despite some nice features, I am requesting a refund and will move on to something that works. Thanks to all for trying to help, but this program is history with me.

FluffyDucks2
02-23-2007, 01:51 PM
Thousands of PF players are quite happily flying the game without the dramatic problems you are ascribing to the game.......maybe there is a clue in that?
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

In the trade the phenomenon is known as UIP, or User Induced Problem. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

XyZspineZyX
02-23-2007, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by sailorman.jim:

In addition, there are other problems with PF. For example, often in a steep bank, all aircraft will suddenly steepen the bank and crash. There is no stall warning or any other warning.

Jim-

do as you like with the program but this post by you, quoted by me above, is all I need to know about your troubles http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you read this thread any more, please, answer this question for me:

In the scenario you describe, in the above quote, what do you think should happen, and why?

sailorman.jim
02-23-2007, 03:42 PM
What I think should happen is that aircraft should not suddenly fail to respond to inputs. Especially when I use the same game controller (Joystick Cobra by Clone) with other flight simulators with no problems.

Looking at other posts in this forum it is pretty obvious that I am far from the only one having problems. The fact that no one from Ubisoft has made any attempt to assist me with this, even after I reported the problem, tells me a bit about the company, too. There will never be another product from them on my computer.

FWIW, I am not unfamiliar with aircraft and flying. I have flown many types of real planes in my life and when there are continual vertical oscillations after any pitch change, there is a problem with the aircraft. Trim has nothing to do with it.

Thanks again to all who have tried to help but this program is now deleted from my system. I doubt I will get any money back, Ubisoft is not that kind of company, but I have learned and I'll warn others.

sailorman.jim
02-23-2007, 03:49 PM
FluffyDuck, This problem is not UIP as you so smugly put it. I have been involved with computers and software since 1968 and with flying for longer than that. This is a basic problem in the software that causes the aircraft models to have insufficient longitudinal stability.

The other problems are ones I could work around even though they should not exist. The problems with the company are ones I will handle by never purchasing any of their products again and warning others not to do so, either. They may retain my money on this one, but I shall cost them many times that in lost business. I do believe in massive retaliation in these cases.

Thanks again for your interest and help.

As we say here, Tchau.

XyZspineZyX
02-23-2007, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by sailorman.jim:
What I think should happen is that aircraft should not suddenly fail to respond to inputs. Especially when I use the same game controller (Joystick Cobra by Clone) with other flight simulators with no problems.

Looking at other posts in this forum it is pretty obvious that I am far from the only one having problems. The fact that no one from Ubisoft has made any attempt to assist me with this, even after I reported the problem, tells me a bit about the company, too. There will never be another product from them on my computer.

FWIW, I am not unfamiliar with aircraft and flying. I have flown many types of real planes in my life and when there are continual vertical oscillations after any pitch change, there is a problem with the aircraft. Trim has nothing to do with it.

Thanks again to all who have tried to help but this program is now deleted from my system. I doubt I will get any money back, Ubisoft is not that kind of company, but I have learned and I'll warn others.

Jim, lots of folks have tried the helpful route, so I'll be blunt:

The problem is either a corrupt install of the program, bad hardware, or user-induced. Period. the problems other people describe are certainly NOT what you describe. No other user here has ever mentioned this trouble you specifically mention: bobbing up and down. None. Ever, to my knowledge

You insist that you are expert, so it cannot be you, the hardware, or a bad install

You are convinced, and probably not even reading this. But how reasonable does it seem that out of 50 people, when one has a unique problem with a thing, that the one person has the "proper" version, while the others are all using a different thing? Not very likely. You can do what you like with the program and tell anyone anything you want but please donlt tell me that your install is working "properly", because it isn't. There are only three possible causes:

1) the user
2) problem with hardware (bad joystick, etc)
3) problem with software (conflict, bad install, etc)

And that's it

sailorman.jim
02-23-2007, 04:39 PM
Let's just take these one at a time. Then I am finished here and desire no further replies on this or any other subject.

This is NOT a problem with my hardware as it functions perfectly with MS FS X, MS Combat FS 3, X Planes, Aces High, and Micro Flight 5.0.

I probably have more experience with flying real and virtual aircraft than 90% of the people on this forum, so I doubt if it is my technique. I don't have similar problems on any of the above simulators, either.

Yes, it could be a bad install, but I have removed and re-installed the program 3 times, so if it is an installation problem, it is with the program itself. I am very disappointed that Ubisoft is essentially ignoring this problem. This tells me that either they don't have a clue, don't care, or feel, "We have your money, go away." Any of those is sufficient cause for me to reject them and their software now and forever.

'Nuff said, so long and happy trails or whatever.

XyZspineZyX
02-23-2007, 04:44 PM
Jim, your beleifs do not equal fact in this case. Good luck in your endeavors and have fun in the virtual skies regardless of what sim you choose to fly

sailorman.jim
02-23-2007, 06:09 PM
Exactly what facts do you mean? The fact that I have re-installed the sim 3 times? The fact that my joystick works perfectly with all other sims? Or the fact that I fly other real and virtual planes with no problem? Yes, you are arrogant an opinionated. Please don't bother responding, I am blocking this entire site.

XyZspineZyX
02-23-2007, 06:26 PM
Jim, you are simply not seeing the issue clearly here

This thing you see does not happen in my sim. It also does not happen to the vast majority of the others here

Logically, would you deduce that something is wrong on your end, or ours?

The sim is NOT supposed to do what you are experiencing, and it doesn't do that to me. Honest to God

Now, please understand, your experience with othe sims and real aircraft means nada concerning what you know about how this sim works

You are here telling me that you know that the sim is supposed to do X Y and Z, and it's doing it- you have the proof, you see what you see, and as a real pilot, you know this is wrong

Well that's great, but the sim is NOT supposed to do what you're seeing. No matter what you're seeing the sim does not do this on my install, or anyone else's that I know of. No incrased bank, no simulation of PIO in the pitch axis.

There is a problem with either the software, the hardware, or the user

Now I don't know which it is. But it's one of them

I'm sorry Ubi gives you a hard time, but they do suck out loaud and hard. i haven't the foggiest what they think they are about, but they really do not care about the flight sim community

However, the flight sim community here is quite knowledgeable

I will not tell you you must try to make this sim work Jim. As I say: good luck in all endeavours and have fun flying the virtual skies with any sim you choose to use. You are having a problem, it is plain. Have you considered trying the forum here:

Community Help (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/ubb.x?a=frm&s=400102&f=49310655)

at all? It is officially called "techincal support", but what it really is is the Il2 community taking care of it's own. You will not be in contact with UbiSoft at that forum, but rather with some very PC savvy community members

I cannot make you change your mind Jim, but it's so obvious that something is amiss to the veteran simmers here it isn;t funny. The sim is not designed to exhibit bobbing up and down, or increased rool rate on it's own

WB_Outlaw
02-23-2007, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by BBB462cid:
You are convinced, and probably not even reading this. But how reasonable does it seem that out of 50 people, when one has a unique problem with a thing, that the one person has the "proper" version, while the others are all using a different thing? Not very likely.

It seems to me that the number 50 in the above should be replaced with (total number of IL-2 users)-1.

I can provide hours and hours of smooth perfectly coordinated tracks and/or video that shows there is not a problem with the code at all. Of course, it's not possible to help someone who will barely try anything. Oh well, y'all did try and that's what counts.

--Outlaw.

Chivas
02-23-2007, 06:59 PM
It could be a multitude of problems, a flawed download or hardware conflict. One thing we do know for a fact there is nothing wrong with the highly acclaimed program. From some of your comments deflecting the problem to UBI or the developer I can only assume there is something wrong between your chair and the monitor.

Tully__
02-23-2007, 08:44 PM
4.03 and 4.04 had poor pitch and yaw damping and overemphasised gyroscopic coupling. Do two things:

1. Dial in a load of filtering for your primary control axes.
2. Click here and read (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5111047273)... it'll help understand what's going on.


Edit: I see you fly in RL too, you may not need step 2 but a refresher (even one written by flight sim enthusiast that's never flown a real plane) can't hurt http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FoolTrottel
02-24-2007, 04:55 AM
Sailorman.jim has published some flying video's on YouTube:
'Saratoga Flight Ops': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZbepSuveus
This one shows his problem...!

Tully__
02-24-2007, 05:46 AM
All planes seem to bob up and down excessively whether the joystick is moved or not.

I've now read the entire thread and it's not a user problem and probably not a joystick problem. Sounds like a corrupted install or a USB problem. At any rate Saiorman.jim doesn't seem in the mood to try and fix it.

As for Ubi not responding, given the clear abundance of satisfied customers it's clear that it's NOT a game problem but rather a problem with the installation on your system.... have you tried un-installing the game, deleting the original installation folder then re-installing by any chance?

-HH-Quazi
02-24-2007, 06:04 AM
Well, when it is only happening to one person, common sense says it is something besides the game causing the problem. I mean we have 100's of people here with the same sim installed and if there was a problem, believe me the Help forum, and all forums for that matter, would be inundated with threads about it.

sailorman.jim
02-24-2007, 06:19 AM
Following your line of logic, HHQuazi, if I use the same controller on five other sims and do not have this problem and have used two other controllers on this program and retained the problem, common sense says the problem IS with the program.

Tully, thanks for the suggestion about the filtering. I doubt it would work as it is not a joystick problem. But, for you, I'll re-install the program (again!) And try it.

The reality is, I have several other flight sims that function well with no problem (see my videos on youtube) so devoting more hours to this is hardly worth anyone's time. Thank you all again for your interest and suggestions. This has been a very good community. Probably better than Ubisoft deserves.

XyZspineZyX
02-24-2007, 06:37 AM
Is there anyway you can post a track of what is happening to you?

In the game, load up a mission in the QMB for example and once the game has loaded up, press Escape, then click "start recording". The file will be stored as quick000n.ntrk in your "Records" folder in the game's main directory.

This will help people here understand better what is happening as just describing it doesnt seem to be helping.

XyZspineZyX
02-24-2007, 06:53 AM
Skunk-

Jim *has* posted videos. Read this page again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Jim</span>-

it's very simple to conclusively prove or disprove your joystick is at fault

Completely unplug it. Set up your controls for keyboard flight. yes I know it stinks. But with the controls (all controls, all of them, no rudder, joytick or throttle, just keyboard) out of the picture, that will tell you without doubt what the joytick has to do with it

Also, with the plane on 'autopilot', you can watch it's behavior

If it isn't bobbing up and down when on autopilot, then this suggests an input issue

This also makes me wonder:

"Also, in the full mission builder, the available missions (very few) are the same ones as the single mission builder."

I am very familiar with the Full Mission Builder. I am confused as to what you mean. Do you mean that the scenarios you can edit are just the same as those in the Single Mission menu? If so, this is 100% normal. The Full Mission Builder lets you edit existing missions or create new ones from scratch- it doesn't generate missions for you

if you are reading this, simply your contunued participation tells me how frustrated you are. This is a problem that can be solved, my friend http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

XyZspineZyX
02-24-2007, 07:34 AM
I also have another solution-

I have the 1946 DVD. I don't need my PF disc anymore Jim

Where are you, I will mail my PF copy to you, so you can test a different copy

-HH-Quazi
02-24-2007, 07:37 AM
I was thinking the same thing m8. His version is from a dl. That might have something to do with it. Would be interested to see to installing from a game disk takes care of this issue he is dealing with.

VW-IceFire
02-24-2007, 07:42 AM
I watched the videos...it LOOKS (not saying it is) that its being flown with a keyboard. Or that the joystick is giving 100% input for slight stick movement. Something is very much messed up there...it doesn't fly like that at all. I see when the guy puts the nose up the plane bobs up and down and then goes nose high with a fair bit of extra AoA as you can see the condensation trails on the wingtips. You shouldn't see those for such a gentle maneuver. Something is wrong man.

Bearcat99
02-24-2007, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by sailorman.jim:
Following your line of logic, HHQuazi, if I use the same controller on five other sims and do not have this problem and have used two other controllers on this program and retained the problem, common sense says the problem IS with the program.

Tully, thanks for the suggestion about the filtering. I doubt it would work as it is not a joystick problem. But, for you, I'll re-install the program (again!) And try it.

The reality is, I have several other flight sims that function well with no problem (see my videos on youtube) so devoting more hours to this is hardly worth anyone's time. Thank you all again for your interest and suggestions. This has been a very good community. Probably better than Ubisoft deserves.

Yes it is a good community.. and frankly you will be doing yourself a disservice by not trying to stick this out until you work out the problem. This sim is good.. very good.... and the community that comes with it is a huge bonus.,.. so be a little more patient and give it another shot. You said you DLd it... I never DL software.. since if I get a corrupt DL then I am pretty much dead. I recommend that you buy the 46 DVD. I know you are soured on UBI... but I can pretty much gaurantee that if you get that DVD you wont be disappointed in the sim.

Try these two sites.. if you are not in the states you may have more options.
46 @ GoGamer (http://www.gogamer.com/viewproduct.htm?productId=7274576&extid=90022107)

46 @ NWS (http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/ilst19.html)


Originally posted by sailorman.jim:
This has nothing to do with trim or my joystick. No trim used has ever chenged anything even the slightest amount. I currently use the joystick with MS FS X, MS CFS 3 and Micro Flight 5.0 and a couple of other ones in the past. None of these have this or any other problem.
In addition, there are other problems with PF. For example, often in a steep bank, all aircraft will suddenly steepen the bank and crash. There is no stall warning or any other warning. Joystick inputs are ignored. Also, the autopilot frequently crashes all planes.
The game (NOT a simulator) is flawed. Despite some nice features, I am requesting a refund and will move on to something that works. Thanks to all for trying to help, but this program is history with me.

Then there is definitely something wrong with the setup... trim should work on all 3 axii.... and it should be pretty pronounced .. especially rudder trim... how does your ball look?

sailorman.jim
02-24-2007, 01:49 PM
BBB462cid, thanks for the CD offer. Is it happens, I was just given a free CD of the IL2 Ultimate Edition by someone whose computer could not run it. After installing it, I find the problem is even worsethan my D/L version. I haven't tried Forgotten Battles or the Ace Expansion pack yet, but I think I am done, now.

It matters not a bit if other people are not experiencing this bobbing, it happens with me, even using the keyboard inputs as suggested. Because this does not happen with any other simulator, I have to believe that it is the Ubisoft flight model.

FWIW, I have a system with two 3 GHZ Pentium 4 processors, and 2GB of RAM. I run the program with every non-essential program and process shut down. SO I should have plenty of processing power to spare. I think we're done here, now.

x6BL_Brando
02-24-2007, 02:23 PM
It matters not a bit if other people are not experiencing this bobbing, it happens with me, even using the keyboard inputs as suggested. Because this does not happen with any other simulator, I have to believe that it is the Ubisoft flight model.


No offense matey, but that is sadly illogical if you really stop to think about it. I'm sorry that you're not able to enjoy the experience that the rest of us are having. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

B.

sailorman.jim
02-24-2007, 03:44 PM
Logical to anyone else or not. The facts are that this software has been nothing for me but a total POS. I have even uninstalled and reinstalled the CD version and tried all the settings that have been suggested. The planes wallow around like a rhinoceros on a wet clay bank. This is totally unusable and I have no more of my life to waste on something that is this bad. Thank you all for your efforts, but I have had enough! I have never been so disgusted with a single piece of software in my life.

-HH-Quazi
02-24-2007, 04:11 PM
Hate to hear it Jim sir. Man. You are probably better off as it may have turned into a huge time consuming addiction. One thing I would like to know. I guess you did go through and recalibrate your stick under the Game Controller in your Control Panel, eh? I know sometimes I don't have to when reinstalling the game. But there have been times I have had to in order for my stick to behave correctly. Just another stab here m8. I hate you are going to miss out on a fantastic sim.

DKoor
02-24-2007, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by sailorman.jim:
Logical to anyone else or not. The facts are that this software has been nothing for me but a total POS. I have even uninstalled and reinstalled the CD version and tried all the settings that have been suggested. The planes wallow around like a rhinoceros on a wet clay bank. This is totally unusable and I have no more of my life to waste on something that is this bad. Thank you all for your efforts, but I have had enough! I have never been so disgusted with a single piece of software in my life. Hi there. What you describe as total PoS many of us play for 5 years. So that statement kinda doesn't hold the water much. Not at all.

WARNING. What you experience may be the wobbles (basically problems with aircraft control, simply said movements were exaggerated) which started with version V4.02. Some users had most severe problems with this... in V4.02/V4.03 of the game that was a real pain in the arse. If you try V4.01 you will notice the difference I think. It's worth a try.

First - check out the online tracks in my sig (click on the FW-190D pic in my signature). Be sure to check them out, in some particular online sorties my online buddies and me have destroyed several aircraft in one mission on hard/realistic settings. Why would you want to check them out? Because you'll see how the aircraft is properly handled, it requires both knowledge and steady hand... another words - experience. Also perhaps the most important thing - compare *our* experience to yours.

Second - nothing that these guys here said regarding your "technical" problems will help you, I sense that you have different kind of problems. Face it this game is very hard, and it's much better that you start with easy settings, untill you get used to the game enviroment.

I myself am using Saitek's EVO joystick with everything on 100 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif maxed out. And I'm holding out pretty well. Check this track out, I shot down four ace Ai planes in a matter of minutes on hardest possible game settings, without pauses and game acceleration/deceleration;
http://rapidshare.com/files/18128926/DKoorFW190D-vs-4xYak9U-408.zip.html

I certainly wont praise the game here, that'll just look pathetic. This game speaks for itself.
Load up the game and play. If you like it, if you like that feeling then play. You'll learn. On normal settings with icons it wont take long.
Some games such is Football Manager do not have scalability option (in difficulty settings) like this one...
But if you're impatient and frustrated then just quit. This isn't the game for you.

This is just a friendly advice, take it or leave it it's up to you.

Lead-Brick
02-25-2007, 04:44 AM
Hey this is just a thought but turn the weather off. Turbulance can be a real pain in the a7se sometimes. I've found it can make twitchy planes bob (His track shows him driving a Corsair). Add a little over compensation by a user not used to it and not prepaired = instant frustration.

I may be wrong but its just a thought

sailorman.jim
02-25-2007, 06:22 AM
BBB462cid, No, I am not going about this "Willy nilly". I HAVE tried with the joystick unplugged and only using the keyboard. I have also used two other joysticks. All with the same result.

FWIW, I was an IBM Customer Engineer for some years, repairing many types of computers and related equipment. I have also been a technical writer, creating maintenance and repair manuals. So I do know a few things about equipment and software and analyzing problems.

I agree that we all have the same software. But instead of focusing on what should be, I am looking at was IS. I have reinstalled the program several times, both the download and the CD version. As with most software, this is the first thing to try. Nothing I have done, either my own thoughts, or from suggestions on here, have made any difference.

I mentioned the basics of my system because there are minimum requirements for any software and I wished to assure everyone that I was OK in that area. No point in anyone going up that blind alley, right?

In addition, I have all those other flight simulators, MS FS X, MS CFS 3.0, X Planes, Aces High, and Micro Flight 5.0. None of these have exhibited any problem with the same joystick.

So, logically, the problem is somewhere within the Ubisoft program. You can see my videos on youtube (search Slrman) where I do not have any similar problem with other sims. Not even landing on a carrier, very short landings at low airspeed, or flying inverted at very low altitudes.

I have ordered a CH Products top of the line joystick. Because it takes so long to get anything from the USA to where I live in Brazil, it will probably be a month before I can try it. By then, I will have moved on and all of this will have been a bad dream. But I might try again just to make certain there is no basic incompatibility with this joystick. That's unlikely, considering all the other things I have tried including no joystick at all.

I really do appreciate all the help and concern I have seen here and want to express my thanks to everyone for that. Nonetheless, it is time for everyone to move on. If something "brilliant" occurs to me or someone else, I might re-install the software and try that. But until then, thanks to all for trying so hard, but this simply does not work for me.

XyZspineZyX
02-25-2007, 06:32 AM
Try this:

Open up the quick mission builder and create a mission with whatever plane you want.

Altitude 1000m, weather clear, map okinawa.

Still get the bobbing? This is just something stemming from Lead-Brick's idea above.

I may have missed it but what to the in-game joystick settings look like? I mean in the hardware set up menu where you can set your stick's sensitivity...

tigertalon
02-25-2007, 07:39 AM
Hey Sailor

The impression I get from reading this thread is, that the problem is definitely not software nor hardware related. Yes, it's wobbling, and we all are experiencing it. While most of us somehow got used to it (although some - including me - doubt it's 100% realistic), I'd like to ask you the following:

Are you flying american planes, namely the F4U?
Are you trying to maneouver at slow(ish) speeds?

As a suggestion, try flying a 'tnb' fighter first, to get used to the general FM machine. Pick a Ki-43 for example, or Ki27, and remember not to maneouver to hard at slow speeds. Feeling should be way different. I'm asking this because basic rule in a dogfight is to get faaaast, and not to maneouver too hard. And if you are fast, these wobbles reduce significantly, as they do if you use only minor stick inputs.

WW2 warbirds were in a way unstable gun platforms, some more others less, and in many times it lead to structural improvements - like adding a "razor" tail fin enlargement on late P47Ds, to improve the stability of a plane.

As said above, I myself doubt a bit that these wobbles are 100% realistic (they are a bit exaggerated IMO, but I never flew a ww2 warbird IRL, so what do I know). Still, you can't call entire '46 a POS because of that. You have around 230 flyable ww2 warbirds with authentic 3d cockpits, armament and ammobelts, more or less (save the wobbles) accurate FM (speed, climb, turning, dive etc etc are all quite spot on), a few dozens more AI planes only, enormous quantity of ground objects and tanks/trucks/trains/artillery of every kind you can possibly imagine. Not the least, it has an incredible online community, composed of mostly serious grown ups, interested in serious debates. This community counts some thousands of flyers (every evening you can find around 1000 players online).

In my opinion, this sim simply has the best FM (apart from wobbles) ever seen in ww2 simulator, let alone all other goodies. I find it a bit harsh to say PF is nothing but POS.

XyZspineZyX
02-25-2007, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
Hey Sailor

The impression I get from reading this thread is, that the problem is definitely not software nor hardware related. Yes, it's wobbling, and we all are experiencing it. While most of us somehow got used to it (although some - including me - doubt it's 100% realistic), I'd like to ask you the following:

Are you flying american planes, namely the F4U?
Are you trying to maneouver at slow(ish) speeds?

As a suggestion, try flying a 'tnb' fighter first, to get used to the general FM machine. Pick a Ki-43 for example, or Ki27, and remember not to maneouver to hard at slow speeds. Feeling should be way different. I'm asking this because basic rule in a dogfight is to get faaaast, and not to maneouver too hard. And if you are fast, these wobbles reduce significantly, as they do if you use only minor stick inputs.

WW2 warbirds were in a way unstable gun platforms, some more others less, and in many times it lead to structural improvements - like adding a "razor" tail fin enlargement on late P47Ds, to improve the stability of a plane.

As said above, I myself doubt a bit that these wobbles are 100% realistic (they are a bit exaggerated IMO, but I never flew a ww2 warbird IRL, so what do I know). Still, you can't call entire '46 a POS because of that. You have around 230 flyable ww2 warbirds with authentic 3d cockpits, armament and ammobelts, more or less (save the wobbles) accurate FM (speed, climb, turning, dive etc etc are all quite spot on), a few dozens more AI planes only, enormous quantity of ground objects and tanks/trucks/trains/artillery of every kind you can possibly imagine. Not the least, it has an incredible online community, composed of mostly serious grown ups, interested in serious debates. This community counts some thousands of flyers (every evening you can find around 1000 players online).

In my opinion, this sim simply has the best FM (apart from wobbles) ever seen in ww2 simulator, let alone all other goodies. I find it a bit harsh to say PF is nothing but POS.

Jesus! Holy **** you're gonna confuse the shht out of him if he reads that tiger. For pete's sake, he says this is WIHOUT input from him!

Now you're gonna put this 'wobbles' thing in his head! He already doesn't know the sim's not supposed to be doing this and you're confusing matters worse! Read what the man posted before you decide you know what advice to give! He sees this problem with no control inputs, tiger!

tigertalon
02-25-2007, 10:23 AM
Cid, I have read his posts and reviewed the video he posted.


Originally posted by sailorman.jim:
Is it happens, I was just given a free CD of the IL2 Ultimate Edition by someone whose computer could not run it. After installing it, I find the problem is even worsethan my D/L version.

This is in perfect consistency with wobble-reducing in 4.07 (?).


Originally posted by sailorman.jim:
I have flown many types of real planes in my life and when there are continual vertical oscillations after any pitch change, there is a problem with the aircraft.

He clearly states it happens just after his input. Which, frankly, happens to all of us - when pitching or yawing to much at slow speed, especially in USN planes.

I'm quite sure it's this that he speaks about:

I switched to no cockpit view, in which you have small circle representing the vector of movement, and large one with a dot representing the plane direction.

I pitched F4U-1a up to the point the vector indicator touched lower border of the screen, and released it immediately, with NO negative input. Check how far plane "sinked" with no player input:

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/th_Wobble_F4U-1.jpg (http://s155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/?action=view&current=Wobble_F4U-1.flv)

Now same thing done with a Ki-27 (note I performed it at approx same speed).

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/th_Wobble_Ki27.jpg (http://s155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/?action=view&current=Wobble_Ki27.flv)

One question for sailor though:

Are you able to control the plane in such a way that vector indicator never leaves the bigger circle, like I was trying to do below? I was flying F4U-1a

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/th_KeepItCentered.jpg (http://s155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/TigerTalon/?action=view&current=KeepItCentered.flv)

FluffyDucks2
02-26-2007, 04:53 AM
What you are describing is the OingoBoingo(tm) effect introduced many patches ago and cured just as quickly.
There were DOZENS of pages about it both here and at SimHQ, I suspect you dont actually want to fix it but are here to be as negative as possible. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
None of your posts lead me to believe that you want to accept ANY help or to actually resolve the problem, you seem to have made up your mind and nothing(even a fix) is going to dissuade you that IL2 is a pos http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif .

Maybe you are a troll? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

MaxMhz
02-26-2007, 05:43 AM
I don't know who you contacted at UBI - try the help forum here or www.airwarfare.com (http://www.airwarfare.com)
I assure you the FM of PF is not to blame. Could you provide a nettrack recording showing the problem? (turn wingtip smoke on - default "T" and look bac at the plane's flight path...

Especially in situations where planes are put beynd their normal operation the Flight Model of the IL-2 series excells and surpasses allmost all other flight simulators.
and yes it's hard to fly a plane and easy to crash one - just like in real life http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

sailorman.jim
02-26-2007, 08:08 AM
MaxMHz, I do have a video that shows the problem at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZbepSuveus

Fluffy, I wonder if you have been reading the same thread I have posted. At the very least, your interpretation of it is different than anyone else's.

I have tried every suggestion offered here and many ideas of my own. How that can be interpreted as a "troll" is a mystery to me.

The fact is, even after following all suggestions from here and doing all I could. The problem persists. The statements that "no one else is seeing this" are not really relevant. I have the problem and that's reality, not trolling.

One other minor, but strange, thing I notice with the CD version. I had to have the CD loaded to start the program. But I could remove it as soon as the program begins to start with no problem. Is this normal? I've removed and installed the program a couple of times but nothing changes. I am getting rather good at resetting all my stuff, though. Heh Heh

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-26-2007, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by sailorman.jim:
What I think should happen is that aircraft should not suddenly fail to respond to inputs.


Okay, that is weird. I have an X-52 joystick and sometimes, the stick won't respond either. Disconnecting en re-connecting of the inter-connect cable usually fixes the problem. But I don't get that in mid-flight, only on start-up of the program. It is really the greatest flight sim program available today. For flying that is, not navigating like in M$FS.


Originally posted by sailorman.jim:
The fact that no one from Ubisoft has made any attempt to assist me with this, even after I reported the problem, tells me a bit about the company, too. There will never be another product from them on my computer.

You don;t get any official help from UBIsoft. That's for sure. Probably because this game is allready more then 5 years old, wich is pretty d@mn ancient compared to the average FPS that UBI is accustomed to. It is of little commercial value to them. But there are some great guys over at the community help forum!! They will fix you problem most of the times. I don't like UBIsoft that much either. But if the next flightsim from Oleg Maddox is allso published by them (wich is almost certain), I'm gping to buy it.

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-26-2007, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by sailorman.jim:

One other minor, but strange, thing I notice with the CD version. I had to have the CD loaded to start the program. But I could remove it as soon as the program begins to start with no problem. Is this normal?

That can be normal. The game only checks for the disk on start-up. The games appearantly doesn't need any data from the disk so, it won't notice that the disk is out of the drive once the start-up is complete.

MaxMhz
02-26-2007, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> All planes seem to bob up and down excessively whether the joystick is moved or not.

I've now read the entire thread and it's not a user problem and probably not a joystick problem. Sounds like a corrupted install or a USB problem. At any rate Saiorman.jim doesn't seem in the mood to try and fix it.

As for Ubi not responding, given the clear abundance of satisfied customers it's clear that it's NOT a game problem but rather a problem with the installation on your system.... have you tried un-installing the game, deleting the original installation folder then re-installing by any chance? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the unlikely event Jim is still follwing this thread - first thanks for the UTube movie.

I agree with Tully_ and suspect a USB problem.

Saitek sticks had problems in the past with USB motherboard connections - quickly solved by connecting the stick to a PCI USB controller (I suspect Jim won't be in the mood for this, but anyway - maybe it helps someone else).

Treetop64
02-26-2007, 10:44 PM
Sailorman - if you are still reading this - I think the number one problem with the control inputs you're experiencing has to do with the default control filter settings in the game. For me they were way too touchy. I experienced exactly the same fustrations you're describing.

Again, the default control filter settings are extremely touchy. It takes some significant adjusting, a bit of patience, and a lot of trial and error to get the settigs that feel best for you. But you will eventually get the feel you're looking for.

Fix that, and I pretty much guarantee that your problems will be fixed. If, however, you're still buggered, then perhaps you're simply employing a ham-fisted approach to your flying. That would be the only other explination, considering that there are countless others who regularly fly competently in this game.

sailorman.jim
02-27-2007, 01:50 PM
Let's sum this up for everyone. Anytime I make the slightest pitch adjustment in any aircraft, no matter how tiny, the nose will bob up and down several times AFTER I no longer move the joystick. It also does this if the joystick is disconnected and I am using the KB. (what a pain that is!)

This happens with every plane I've tried in every mode, speed and view. At least it's consistent. I'll give it that. Consistency also tells me that this comes from a single flaw and not a combination of ingredients.

I have tried every suggestion given here,deleted and re-installed the software several times, and tried wildly extreme setting in the hardware profile (100% filtering, large dead zones, and sensitivity settings of like 0, 03, 08, 15, 21, 32, 44, 56, 67, 80.

Nothing has ever made the slightest difference, including messing with the trim until I thought the buttons I selected on my joystick were going to fall out. I am at a total loss and find I am enjoying other flight simulators a lot more because they don't have any problems even resembling this. I like many of the features here but things like air-to-air combat are impossible when you cannot stop the $%ยจ&*ing bobbing to get a bead on anything.

My most successful missions have been low level bombing because you can wait for the plane to stabilize before dropping bombs. But that's getting kind of old.

I have a new sign over my system where anyone can see it, Ubisoft Sucks! They have not answered anything I have sent to them. I thought Micro$oft was the most uncaring, arrogant company in the world, but now they must share that throne.

WB_Outlaw
02-27-2007, 03:51 PM
SJ, if you are manually editing the conf.ini file, just to make sure that you are really changing the pitch settings, set ALL of the pitch scaling inputs to zero. That, in effect, totally disables your pitch inputs. If you still have any pitch control after that, then you are not adjusting the pitch setting. Don't ask me how I know to check this.

If it helps, you are right about Ubisoft support.


--Outlaw.

sailorman.jim
02-27-2007, 06:38 PM
Well, that's it. I have tried everything there is to try, I have follewed every syggestion made here and not one thing has helped even a little bit. I have used a total of three joysticks, the keyboard and copious cursing. I am done, finished, and totally disgusted.

Thanks to everyone for your help but enough is enough. I have deleted the game and all installation files and destroyed the CD. It's over and I am moving on to something that works.

At this point, if Ubisoft came to me begging forgiveness with a triple refund and an offer of a new, improved, working version, I would turn them down cold and invite them to obey the Biblical imperative to "Go forth and multiply thyself."

At we say here, Tchau!

buzzsaw1939
02-27-2007, 07:35 PM
If your still around Jim, I have the same problem, only it just affects some aircraft, the SBD and spitfire that Iv'e found so far, I love this game, I'm an old retired commercial pilot who's not going to let this thing beat me, it's too much fun! my problem isn't so much bobbing up and down as it is rolling off one wing or the other, (not real!) I don't know if it's relevent, but the only bobbing up and down was caused by me forgetting my combat flaps were still down, took a lot of forward stick pressure, (that's real!)but I'm sure you would have noticed that by now! this is the first time Iv'e ever posted anywhere, I hope I'm doing it right, this site is great.

VW-IceFire
02-27-2007, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
If your still around Jim, I have the same problem, only it just affects some aircraft, the SBD and spitfire that Iv'e found so far, I love this game, I'm an old retired commercial pilot who's not going to let this thing beat me, it's too much fun! my problem isn't so much bobbing up and down as it is rolling off one wing or the other, (not real!) I don't know if it's relevent, but the only bobbing up and down was caused by me forgetting my combat flaps were still down, took a lot of forward stick pressure, (that's real!)but I'm sure you would have noticed that by now! this is the first time Iv'e ever posted anywhere, I hope I'm doing it right, this site is great.
You absolutely did it right! Welcome to the community!

Are you using 4.04 or 4.07/4.08? They did fix some of the joystick routines for the newest edition...not really a fix as they were more interested in making things feel more real given that most WWII planes had long sticks and we've got short little ones...long story short it seems to have reduced some of these types of issues. Certainly they have done so for me.

Zeus-cat
02-27-2007, 09:14 PM
most WWII planes had long sticks and we've got short little ones

Speak for yourself sir!

buzzsaw1939
02-27-2007, 09:18 PM
Now I really feel like an antique,I had to go see which version I had, I just bought it less than a month ago. and it's a 3.00, I like this game so much that I just bought the hotas cougar controls, says it's not in right, been haveing to much fun to go fix it. I appreciate your response to a new guy, do you have any suggestions about updates ect. still pretty new to all this.

FoolTrottel
02-28-2007, 12:02 AM
do you have any suggestions about updates ect.
Go read this thread: Correct Patch Order - Make sure you do it right! (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/5581083643)

And read the part on 'Pacific Fighters Standalone'

(do take good care on selecting and downloading the correct patches, as the 'm' versions are the ones to avoid!)

As you are having so much fun, why not go for the complete series, and get yourself the IL2 Sturmovik 1946 DVD?

More planes, more maps, even more fun! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Welcome here!

MaxMhz
02-28-2007, 02:32 AM
The 'm'version patches are for the merged install which needs FB, AEP and PF. The Sturmovik 1946 DVD set will install to 4.07m in one go and includes everything. The latest patch is 4.08m which is played by 99% of the players already. Sturmovik 1946 is not yet in the retail stores in the US. Try an online store like GoGamer.com or NWS Online store ($37.99 at NWS).
I must say I never had the bobbing effect myself and am a bit astonished that several users have now reported it. Maybe an email to Oleg to report a bug will help - pf<at>1C.ru
I tried all F4, SBD and spits - no bobbing whatsoever here, neither the described wingdrop. I tried on low speed with and without gear down, with and without different flaps settings.

buzzsaw1939
02-28-2007, 03:49 PM
maxmhz--- I made a track file of my wallowing sbd, not sure how to post it, or even play it,windows media dosn't recognize it, (help) thats how green I am! remmember, we all start somewhere! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Rattler68
02-28-2007, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">most WWII planes had long sticks and we've got short little ones

Speak for yourself sir! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just had to do it, didn't ya, Zeus?!

killer2359
03-07-2007, 12:51 AM
I've just gone thru the whole reinstallation and patching process - up to 4.04 - of stand alone Pacific Fighters (this after not having it on my system for several months).

After the initial (3.00) installation and then after each subsequent patch installation (ie. before doing the NEXT patch) I have flown various single missions and various planes. My observations:

from 4.01 onward there seems to be some issue with longitudinal axis "wobble" - very frustrating but I'll work on my joystick config to try and get round it. Otherwise the 4.xx FM seems fine - but if I can't damp down the wobble thing then I'll be going back to 3.03

Question for the gurus: is it possible to patch stand alone original PF to 4.07 and 4.08 or do I have to buy this 1946 thing?? (have NO INTEREST in European theatre so not keen).

sailorman.jim
03-07-2007, 05:05 AM
Killer, I saw your post in my e-mail. From various private responses I have received, we are not the only ones experiencing this. So it is not your joystick, it is the software. I even emailed Oleg Maddox, the game programmer, and followed his suggestions for the input settings. He was nice enough to send me screen shots of the actual setting. Unfortunately, they did not help at all. If you, or anyone is interested in them, send me an e-mail at sailorman.jim <at> gmail.com and I will pass them along.

FWIW, I had the download version of PF, patched to 4.04. Then the merged, FB AEP PF 4.04M CD. All of them showed this behavior in all planes. Some planes were worse than others, but they all did it.

After weeks of frustration, I have totally deleted everything. As you can see from this thread, I have other simulators with no problem.

The people here have been more than helpful and I am really appreciative of the efforts put forth in my behalf. I just wish they would have been successful. These are great folks here and they'll do their best for you.

DKoor
03-07-2007, 06:40 AM
Hey Jim why don't you share a few tracks with us? Just upload them on rapidshare or somewhere and post a download link. http://rapidshare.com/
From video there can't be seen much as from a track. We can loot at all angles and there's even people who can "measure" things thru device link if necessary (util that enables you to see some bugs in game etc.).
It is usual de-bug procedure around here - record problem on a track (NTRK) and post it.

Anyway good luck. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also;

Originally posted by killer2359:
from 4.01 onward there seems to be some issue with longitudinal axis "wobble" - very frustrating but I'll work on my joystick config to try and get round it. Otherwise the 4.xx FM seems fine - but if I can't damp down the wobble thing then I'll be going back to 3.03 You may as well get back on pre 4.02 right now, because V4.02 and V4.03 had most severe wobble problem.
V4.04 was better, tho. In terms of stability.
Current IL-2 Sturmovik 46 V4.08 is just fine if you ask me... just fine.

KOM.Nausicaa
03-07-2007, 04:15 PM
I just read through this thread and I get following impression; sorry to say so:

A) The community rips it's arms and legs out to help this guy and

B) The guy says following things in almost every post:

1. I know it all
2. No other of my flightsims does it so IL sucks
3. I gonna delete the program
4. Ubi sucks
5. I never come back

Sorry but this remark was enough for me: Jim says: "Yes, you are arrogant an opinionated."
Mhh..I see only one in this thread that I find being arrogant and opiniated, and that is Jim.

And btw: I also dont have the problem Jim describes, never had it, and I fly since 4 years. It's definitly on his end. Now he should appreciate the extraordinary help the community has offered in this thread, I hope he does. (but i doubt it)

sailorman.jim
03-07-2007, 04:22 PM
Sorry, DKoor, but I have deleted the entire PF application, all folders, and files. I do have a few videos I made, but that's all. The one on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZbepSuveus) is still there and it shows the problem rather well.

When in aerial combat was when it was the worst. I would make a VERY slight adjustment in pitch, stop moving the joystick, and then the plane would pitch up violently then bob several times, making it impossible to line up a shot. I have even seen this happen when in autopilot, so it was not me, my joystick, nor the settings.

It's all a moot point with me now as there is no way I will ever have this game on my system or anything else from Ubishabby.

I do appreciate all the effort member here have expended in my behalf though. Thanks again, people.

sailorman.jim
03-07-2007, 04:30 PM
Kom.Nauious The arrogant and opinionated comment was a joking response to a signature. If the problem is on my end, why hasn't any suggestion made by members here changed anything? I really doubt you have read this entire thread and seen where I have tried every single idea presented here and more of my own besides.

If I knew everything, I would have fixed this.

Apparently, you are the exception to the things I have said about everyone else here that proves the rule. This is a very helpful, polite forum.

Just because you CLAIM you have never seen this problem doesn't mean that I and the others who have reported it are not having it.

I have never said I was not coming back. I have just said I will never buy anything from Ubisoft ever again. They have treated me very badly and I don't react well to that.

That I will not ever purchase another version of PF unless I can test it first is simply using good sense. Once burned...

Chef-Scott
03-07-2007, 06:36 PM
Why is everyone feeding the troll? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Treetop64
03-07-2007, 06:44 PM
In the words of the illustrious Bearcat: "Don't feed it, and it won't grow."

killer2359
03-08-2007, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by sailorman.jim:
Killer, I saw your post in my e-mail. From various private responses I have received, we are not the only ones experiencing this. So it is not your joystick, it is the software. I even emailed Oleg Maddox, the game programmer, and followed his suggestions for the input settings. He was nice enough to send me screen shots of the actual setting. Unfortunately, they did not help at all. If you, or anyone is interested in them, send me an e-mail at sailorman.jim <at> gmail.com and I will pass them along.

FWIW, I had the download version of PF, patched to 4.04. Then the merged, FB AEP PF 4.04M CD. All of them showed this behavior in all planes. Some planes were worse than others, but they all did it.

After weeks of frustration, I have totally deleted everything. As you can see from this thread, I have other simulators with no problem.

The people here have been more than helpful and I am really appreciative of the efforts put forth in my behalf. I just wish they would have been successful. These are great folks here and they'll do their best for you.

Hi Jim, yeah I'm finding the same thing as far as it being a universal problem in the FM - seems like a longitudinal inertia/weathervaning coupling type thing or some such. Oh well, I'll just go back to 3.03 - that's the most playable version for me as in it they've fixed the trim control phubar of the earlier versions (apparently that was an issue that only me in the whole world experienced or noticed too) but it's pre the version 4.xx "wobblies".

sailorman.jim
03-08-2007, 03:55 AM
Chef-Scott et al: None of this has been a troll. If you had bothered to read and comprehend this thread, you would see that I am not the only person having this problem.

You would also see that I have followed every suggestion made here and many others besides. In addition, I have continuously given credit to people on this board for their efforts on my behalf. This is not the behavior of a troll. Your insulting and snide remarks are.

I have an idea, why don't you leave this thread to people who are having a problem and those who are trying to help?

If you have an issue with me personally, please take it off this board and either e-mail or PM me. I doubt that most people want to have the great image of this forum sullied by people who think that "If I say it isn't happening, it isn't happening." If you have nothing but insults and name-calling to contribute, then you obviously have nothing of value to say.

JG53Frankyboy
03-08-2007, 04:02 AM
you did already the right thing.
you didnt like the FM how it is programmed from the Maddox Team.The FM is a very important part of a Flight game,so you deinstalled it.

some planes are more stable than others - true. some of us here are playingthis software already so long, me more than 5 years , we got familiar with it..................

we are playing games. we should enjoy playing them ! if there is no joy , deinstall.

Bearcat99
03-08-2007, 06:54 AM
Still though.. I would really like to be able to figure out what his problem was.... since although there are some who had the same problem.. many didn't.. including me. So I am really curious as to exactly what could be causing it. It is all moot now.... but SMJ.. truth be told it is a pity you couldnht get the sim working right because iot is a really fantastic piece of kit and head & shoulders above any other WWII sim around.... Especially when you add to it things like MM 2.5, The U.Q.M.G. , VAC, TIR, a HOTAS, rudder pedals and a slammin rig.

Good luck... and dont give up on the sim... and for what it is worth... I never DL software if I can get a disk from somewhere. I had a bad experience with the Pe-2 add on... so I always go for the hardcopy.

Chef-Scott
03-08-2007, 10:14 AM
http://www.sesraw.com/Chef-Scott/Troll.jpg

buzzsaw1939
03-08-2007, 10:32 AM
come on guys! lets give Jim a break, I don't think he is attacking the sim, (stop takeing it personaly), just the soft ware, I have noticed that the people haveing problems have resently bought the soft ware, including me, I'm suggesting that it's probably burned in China like every thing else is, (no offence to the Chinese) but they don't seem to have much quality control over there, and maybe the master program is just worn out, I just know that I wish I had bought mine years ago, when they worked, Just a thought!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

sailorman.jim
03-08-2007, 11:14 AM
Chef-Scott, I have to admire you. Not many people would post their own picture on a forum, even this one. Good man! Brave man! Kudos to you from me!

I have to admit, I am impressed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

sailorman.jim
03-08-2007, 11:37 AM
Redtail, thanks for your input. As I have mentioned before, I originally d/l PF standalone because getting CD's delivered is often a problem here in Brazil. Then, when I was given the FB/AEP/PF CD, I was using that. Both exhibited the same behavior, even in autopilot mode. Both were version 4.04 although I had to patch the d/l up to that.

Thinking about this, I realize that because several others have reported the same thing, we must not all be using the same hardware in terms of computers, joysticks, etc. Nor will we all have the same level of Windows, etc. The only common factor I see here is PF.

I agree with you and everyone else that says this is a great Sim with features not found anywhere else. For example, it is much better than MS CFS 3.0 in terms of graphics, airplane appearance, etc. All of that is to the good, but the hobby horsing on every pitch change takes all the realism and fun out of it.

If some one had been able to give me something like, "Do a, b, and c and the problem will go away; even if it had been something like buy this specific joystick or d/l this patch. None of that would have been unreasonable to me.

As it is, perhaps we should just let this die unless someone comes up with a definite answer. Particularly since some people are starting to turn unpleasant and no longer act like adults and gentlemen.

FWIW, this is one of the best forums on the internet I have seen. So it is particularly sad when people accuse me of being a troll when I have always been polite, grateful, and have never attacked anyone on here no matter how frustrated I have been with the software.

If the potential of PF were not so good, I would not have been so frustrated. With lesser programs, I would have simply deleted it and moved on. I felt that PF was worth the effort. It's really too bad this could not be solved.

joeap
03-08-2007, 02:01 PM
It's too bad you can't get Il-46, I think that might have solved your problems.

sailorman.jim
03-08-2007, 05:01 PM
joeap. Thanks for the input, but I have solved my problem by deleting PF. Now I am using other simulators that have fewer features, but ones that work as they are supposed to work. MS FS X is even more complex but everything seems to work with no real problems, at least not for me. But, frankly, I find it a little boring.

Micro Flight 5.0 has nicely detailed planes even many with interiors. The flight characteristics are good, too. But the AI required for combat simulation is not there. The scenery could stand some serious upgrades, too. Perhaps in the next release, due this year, some things will improve.

buzzsaw1939
03-08-2007, 09:37 PM
for any body thats interested. I just uninstalled pf and installed pf from the ultimate collection, (Guess what)every thing works the way it's suppose to. I think that kind of proves my point about bad disk's, which would be a manufacturing problem, right ?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

killer2359
03-09-2007, 12:55 AM
OK, I've gone back to 3.03 and am enjoying the heck out of PF now - pity I can't have the goodies of later versions along with a usable FM (and I paid $90 Australian originally for my PF) but you get that.

Strangely enough, I'm also finding that battle outcomes in 3.03 are more like I'd expect compared to what I was seeing in the 4.xx versions - ie. in 4.xx I was very surprised to find pretty much ANY and ALL american planes slaughtering any and all Jap planes - and found it exceedingly difficult in Jap planes to down even F4's and conversely Jap planes very easy to down even in an F4 (absolute child's play in F4U) - but in 3.03 I'm finding that each type of plane performs much more in line with what I expect from historical record - forcing tactics to be used accordingly - ie. energy fighting in US planes vs agility (evasion defensively, good gunnery offensively) in the Jap planes...

Bottom line is that I'm now having fun with it and am sort of over the disillusionment I'd had since the first 4.xx patch - which is why the game has been shelved for several months - while I waited for a few more patches to see if things got sorted. Should have just gone back to 3.03 back then (shrug).

joeap
03-09-2007, 03:18 AM
My last post on this thread. Problem is the whole insistence "it happened (or not) to me it couldn't have happened to you," Jim if the program was so bad, or the FM, why did most of us have no problem? Rather, it seems the program worked well on most computers but not quite a few. I was embarrassed by the way some here dismissed your complaint and saying you must be wrong. Buzzsaw might be right about bad disks.

Lesson for the future, both for the person with the problem and those trying to help(nasty people can stay away) not to blow the other's comments off.

Finally for Jim and Killer look at this thread with 2 actual aerobatic pilots.

Aerobatic FM (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/3881098535)

Not so bad after all.

buzzsaw1939
03-09-2007, 05:13 AM
Joeap Good post, but at the risk of sounding like I'm correcting you, I have to say that you could have used a better example thead to show how good this game is, that guy reads a lot of books and has a photogragic memory, nothing more. I'm with Fork-n-spoon. I love this sim and am haveing a great time with it, but you can trust me when I say it's not comparable to reality, ( ie.) ask any low time pilot what happens when you kick right rudder? it's backwords in pf, but what the hay, I'm haveing a good time whith it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

joeap
03-09-2007, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Joeap Good post, but at the risk of sounding like I'm correcting you, I have to say that you could have used a better example thead to show how good this game is, that guy reads a lot of books and has a photogragic memory, nothing more. I'm with Fork-n-spoon. I love this sim and am haveing a great time with it, but you can trust me when I say it's not comparable to reality, ( ie.) ask any low time pilot what happens when you kick right rudder? it's backwords in pf, but what the hay, I'm haveing a good time whith it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Damn, you made me break my promise. I'm happy for you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Not talking about the thread starter (how do you know he only reads) but TX-Ecodragon who has been on these forums for a long time and is a real aerobatic pilot, plus you only have PF not the latest 4.xx FMs. Fork-N -Spoon is just being a troll, sorry you think him more credible.

I guess I'll trust him and not some desk ace (I am one too btw).

Bearcat99
03-09-2007, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by sailorman.jim:
Chef-Scott, I have to admire you. Not many people would post their own picture on a forum, even this one. Good man! Brave man! Kudos to you from me!

I have to admit, I am impressed. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

ROFLMAO... which one the avatar or the post pic?

buzzsaw1939
03-09-2007, 06:08 AM
Joeap I was affraid you would missunderstand me, since I'm fairly new here, I don't want to affend anyone, I don't want to bore anyone with my cridentials or experience, I'm not here to impress anyone, lets just say that "it takes one to know one", I am one and he's not, I've never seen a post by TX-Ecodragon and it's the first time I've seen anything from Fork-and-spoon, what he said, I agree with. since I am retired, I guess I'm a desk jocky too! I think it's great that when I smack into the carrier, It dosn't heart! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm still learning pf, this is all new stuff to me.

joeap
03-09-2007, 08:18 AM
Whatever. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Just because you don't know him, we do, (search for his other posts if you like).

buzzsaw1939
03-09-2007, 11:14 AM
Whooo something go lost here, I'm refering to Ddt_icemanfred, thats who was on that thread, did I miss something, by looking at my post, I can see I should watch my spelling but, oh well, It aint the first time I've tried to be helpful and steped on somebodys toes, that seems to be the nature of written communication. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

buzzsaw1939
03-09-2007, 11:53 AM
OK now I think I know what went wrong, I just went back and read the thread again, like I said, I don't know TX-Ecodragon, but he seems more real than Ddt_icemanfred with all his techical jiberish, you said actual pilots, thats my field, I'm sorry if that offends you, but I stand by my original opinion. peace bro. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

killer2359
03-09-2007, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
My last post on this thread. Problem is the whole insistence "it happened (or not) to me it couldn't have happened to you," Jim if the program was so bad, or the FM, why did most of us have no problem? Rather, it seems the program worked well on most computers but not quite a few. I was embarrassed by the way some here dismissed your complaint and saying you must be wrong. Buzzsaw might be right about bad disks.

Lesson for the future, both for the person with the problem and those trying to help(nasty people can stay away) not to blow the other's comments off.

Finally for Jim and Killer look at this thread with 2 actual aerobatic pilots.

Aerobatic FM (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/3881098535)

Not so bad after all.

Interesting read and no surprise - I have to make it clear that from the outset I have had no problem with the overall FM with which I've always been hugely impressed. For me the devil has been in some (possibly insignificant to most)details - ie. in verions up to 3.03 there was IMO some error made with the way elevator trim was implemented - along the lines that whereas in the real thing the tab is used to "fly" the whole surface, in those early FM's it seemed that the surface was treated as being fixed position at stick centered - then the tab was used to fly the whole aircraft - sort of like a little baby elevator attached to the main elevator (in simple terms the tab deflection modelling was opposite of correct). Nett result was oversensitivity in the elevator in one direction + reduced sensitivity in the other whenever any elevator trim was used - personally made precise gunnery a nightmare. This seems corrected in 3.03 - and my issue with 4.xx is the longitudinal axis "wobbling" which for overall flight and general maneouvering isn't a drama but I find really irritating when trying to line up shots air to air and when making ground attack runs - and to be honest I don't care if it's 'n"th degree realistic - in the context of a pc flight sim where you don't have the actual body feel and control feel feedback it's IMO unnecessarily "fiddly".

Anyway, as I said: I'm having a heap of fun with the game patched just up to 3.03

buzzsaw1939
03-09-2007, 06:18 PM
right on Killer My feelings exactly. I have held off on any patches because of all the things I'v been reading so far, I think in earlier post in this thread I had mentioned that only the sbd and spit would roll side to side uncontrolably, and the late model hellcat in the qm would wag it's tail with no rudder input, by installing ultimate collection, I removed about 90% of that, at least enough to have fun. you seem to have some savy on control functions so here's a question for you, when you kick the rudder into a skid does the inside wing drop or the outside one, they seem to have gotten it backwards,if you had this problem, did the 3.03 fix it? I can live with it but an old fighter pilot trick was to skid when the enamy was on your six, it threw off his lead, with these planes it's hard to do that, with out doing a lumpshevic (I don't know how to spell it) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif some of them just skid flat, but thats workable.

killer2359
03-09-2007, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
right on Killer My feelings exactly. I have held off on any patches because of all the things I'v been reading so far, I think in earlier post in this thread I had mentioned that only the sbd and spit would roll side to side uncontrolably, and the late model hellcat in the qm would wag it's tail with no rudder input, by installing ultimate collection, I removed about 90% of that, at least enough to have fun. you seem to have some savy on control functions so here's a question for you, when you kick the rudder into a skid does the inside wing drop or the outside one, they seem to have gotten it backwards,if you had this problem, did the 3.03 fix it? I can live with it but an old fighter pilot trick was to skid when the enamy was on your six, it threw off his lead, with these planes it's hard to do that, with out doing a lumpshevic (I don't know how to spell it) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif some of them just skid flat, but thats workable.

In general terms the wing that shifts into a "leading" position gets more lift + the trailing wing loses lift so the initial yaw is then followed by a roll in the direction of the yaw (I'd expect you could flip the plane over tho by correcting heavily wing down with that leading wing). To skid, you offset the roll with the ailerons to keep the wings level - my understanding is that in most WW2 fighters this could be done to quite a drastic degree - in PF 3.03 I don't think the inertia vs aerodynamics is quite rightly modelled (have to admit I didn't try skidding with 4.xx) so I've always felt that "skidding" doesn't work quite as it should - for a start airspeed doesn't drop off as drastically as I'd expect and the whole plane just changes direction of travel really well (ie. much better than I'd expect). I saw a very memorable show on History channel where a pilot recounted throwing his Hellcat (I think it was the F6 - maybe was F4F tho) into a skid that caused the Zero behind him to overshoot so he was able to rake it as it went past - this simply doesn't seem possible in PF (3.03 anyway) as far as I can tell.

Altho I'm generally happy there are things that disturb me about the FM - for example if you're sitting stationary on the ground and operate trim controls then the control surfaces visibly deflect in response to the trim adjustment - AFAIK this shouldn't happen as the tabs' effect is aerodynamic in nature - stationary on the ground the tabs should simply be moving with no resultant effect on the surfaces. This to me means that they have a trim system that more or less does as it's supposed to in flight, but it's evidently not actually modelled after the way the real thing operates. BUT, I need to do more research on this tho as perhaps at least in WW2 vintage aircraft the trim systems operated differently to every plane I've ever seen (I'm an aircraft mechanic) and there's interconnects that do make the trim systems grossly effect the whole control surfaces' "neutral" position..... (actually some current aircraft Rudder trim systems operate like that so I can understand rudders behaving like that in PF, but I'm pretty sure Elevator and Aileron trims should be aerodynamic type).

buzzsaw1939
03-10-2007, 12:27 AM
Killer you are absolutly right on every word you said, I truly am impressed, the first part, is called cross control, it was used for rapidly loseing altitude on landing if you where coming in to high, it dose put a lot of drag on the side of the plane while shortening the wing span, this was in the days before flaps, in my career, I often heard that Ausie pilots were among the best in the world,(good training) now it appears thier machanics are pretty sharp too! I don't think any of my machanics could have explained it that well in laymans terms, sounds like we are pretty much on the same page as far as the sim goes, there is problems in it, but I love it, I keep hearing people compare it to real life, you can't! It's a sim, it's a great fun fantasy and thats all it needs to be, if I want reality, I go to the airport. Thanks for the reply, I guess it can't hurt to try the 3.03 and see what happens, I can always take it out, I think!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

killer2359
03-10-2007, 04:53 PM
Thanks buzz, you're most kind :-)

As a matter of interest I've just found the "Stepping Inputs on stick/X52" thread to be a bit of a revelation - following the info in there I've managed to acheive a very nice control configuration. Unfortunatley, altho it makes it easier to manage decent gunnery under 4.xx versions the wobblies are still there (I actually got a little ill in a QMB test furball I used to try it out - after the third kill / 5 minutes of flying I had to stop) - so I'm back again to 3.03 which is a pity because I do prefer the overall improvement in stall behaviour and inertia in the 4.xx FM.

Using the principles outlined in that joystick input thread I've got my values set to:
PITCH 55,55,55,55,55,57,63,72,83,95
ROLL 50,50,50,50,50,53,61,70,83,100
YAW same as roll + 0.2 filtering

- I used to have them ramped from about 22 or 25 up to the max values of 89 for pitch and 100 for the others, but using the higher flat line values then ramping at the end works MUCH better for my Cyborg EVO!

Also - tho on a different note- ingame I "cheat" by using the no cockpit view with the circle/dot + velocity vector (my concession to the limitations of virtual pc flying)- and because stall is directly related to AoA, I use the mouse to shift the view so the circle/dot is lowered to a position where the distance from it to the lower edge of the screen equates roughly to stall AoA - makes it much easier to fly right up to the "edge". In general I use a rough distance initially then tweak it during combat but if I want to be real picky I'll do some stalls during the flight out to the mission area / before engaging the enemy and set it precisely straight up.

SeminoleX
03-11-2007, 07:51 AM
I had to laugh as I read through this one...this toff certainly knows much more than he understands.

I wonder how many dead ex-pilots there are, littering the landscape, because like this poster they "knew better"...to he11 with all facts and rationality....my instruments must be wrong!...they don't indicate what I know is right.

I could straighten out his problems in 2 minutes if on site but probably couldn't explain it to him via the forum in a hundred years.

So I won't try. Good luck pal.

buzzsaw1939
03-11-2007, 09:35 AM
Huh???...Dead pilots? Did you bump your head when you got up this morning? or are you just lurking, waiting for someone to punch, I've read your post, and his, over and over, I don't see the connection, he's talking about what he's doing in the sim and haveing fun,(check the last part of my last post) check your mixture, your over heating

buzzsaw1939
03-11-2007, 11:03 AM
Killer...I have to admit, I cheat too, when I realized that the stall and spin are not accurate, I turned them off, there are so many things that (are) accurate, it dosen't bother me to do it. (different note) it accured to me last night that this thread has died, or what I think they call off topic, or maybe I have run every body off with my jumping in so often,... maybe theres an unwritten rule that noobs aren't suposed to do that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif anyway, I really like the track file feature, and think it would be fun to exchange with others, I'm going to try to start a thread on that, I'm not ready for online yet, still got a lot of questions, and I have already seen that there is a lot of friendly helpful people in here.

killer2359
03-11-2007, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by SeminoleX:
I had to laugh as I read through this one...this toff certainly knows much more than he understands.

I wonder how many dead ex-pilots there are, littering the landscape, because like this poster they "knew better"...to he11 with all facts and rationality....my instruments must be wrong!...they don't indicate what I know is right.

I could straighten out his problems in 2 minutes if on site but probably couldn't explain it to him via the forum in a hundred years.

So I won't try. Good luck pal.

Hmmmm,..... remember this?:

"One note of concern. The throttle control on the EVO is centered behind the stick and the movememt is reversed. Down=increased power. This was done I suspect because the higher the throttle control is raised the more the player is likely to accidentally hit it with the arm. In other words...full power and the control is down and out of the way."

HINT: I don't think you're in a position to be "chucking stones" about - either at jim or anyone else here after that little clanger "pal" - mind you, on a positive note it looks like you do definitely grasp the concept of "knowing more than you understand" so I guess it could be inferred that you used that particular term with some authority.

buzzsaw1939
03-11-2007, 11:20 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

msalama
03-12-2007, 01:00 AM
Hmmm... just passing by, really, and don't have much in the way of advice either, but try these input settings at your leisure nevertheless:

P: 1 7 14 23 33 45 58 72 85 100
R: 1 7 14 23 33 45 58 72 85 100
Y: 1 7 14 23 33 45 58 72 85 100

Deadzone & filtering as needed. I'm using values of 1 & 3 respectively.

I've found that these settings give me both precision and maximum control deflection if / when needed. And there's not too much wobbling either, apart from the gyro effect which of course is there just as it should be... HTH http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

All that said I still wonder WTF exactly is it in this game - or possibly in the environment where it is run, who knows - that gives some people so much grief whereas others like me have never really experienced anything serious... go figure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

SeminoleX
03-12-2007, 09:52 PM
Yeah I remmeber it and obviously don't have a clue as to what I meant.

Now another toff to laught at.

Thanks!

buzzsaw1939
03-13-2007, 10:56 AM
But then again....it could be the high CHT is caused by a stuck cowl flap, or maybe a birds nest! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

killer2359
03-16-2007, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by SeminoleX:
Yeah I remmeber it and obviously don't have a clue as to what I meant.

Now another toff to laught at.

Thanks!

AAAAHHHHAhahahahahahahaha,....MAAAAATE!, -I know EXACTLY what you meant.

And the laughing pleasure is really all ours I can assure you :-)

Ooohh, - look, there goes a Fire Engine!