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View Full Version : 6dof design is lame imho



raaaid
07-25-2006, 06:13 AM
i have already explained how the axe in which you move closer or farther from the screen should imply a shrink of image as you close by, just as a real gunsight

but i have find something still more lame

take the leaning axe:

if i lean(spin) my head to the left without 6d0f apparently the image screen spins to the right in my brain so no need at all of this axe in fact adding it is a mistake

i lean my head to horizontality 90º:

without 6d0f works as real life ill see the horizont vertical

with 6d0f ill see the horizont horizontal because as i put the head horizontal 6d0f puts the horizont vertical reading my head movement

isnt this lame?

im beggining to be more suspicious that natural point read my idea about 6dof and develop it all wrong, hell if it was this way they could have asked me

so the leaning axe is useless but it could be used for something else like helping disable play the game using it as rudder for example

5dof is plenty enough

raaaid
07-25-2006, 06:13 AM
i have already explained how the axe in which you move closer or farther from the screen should imply a shrink of image as you close by, just as a real gunsight

but i have find something still more lame

take the leaning axe:

if i lean(spin) my head to the left without 6d0f apparently the image screen spins to the right in my brain so no need at all of this axe in fact adding it is a mistake

i lean my head to horizontality 90º:

without 6d0f works as real life ill see the horizont vertical

with 6d0f ill see the horizont horizontal because as i put the head horizontal 6d0f puts the horizont vertical reading my head movement

isnt this lame?

im beggining to be more suspicious that natural point read my idea about 6dof and develop it all wrong, hell if it was this way they could have asked me

so the leaning axe is useless but it could be used for something else like helping disable play the game using it as rudder for example

5dof is plenty enough

OD_79
07-25-2006, 06:38 AM
I haven't got a clue what you are talking about, it's a clear as mud. It's always worked fine for me!

OD

The-Pizza-Man
07-25-2006, 06:41 AM
So which DoF are you planning on discarding? One of the translations or rotations? You need all of them to accurately model movement in a 3d space.

raaaid
07-25-2006, 06:43 AM
the lean axe:

i lean my head 90º to horizontallity i should see horizont vertical but with 6dof as i lean left it spins the image left as well so in the end ill be horizontal and see the horizont horizontal huh?

ill be with my head horizontal and the horizont in the screen will be vertical, result ill see the horizont always horizontala however much i lean my head

isnt this lame?

it would work perfectly 5dof the 6th can be used as rudder for thsose disable of with no money to buy a rudder

raaaid
07-25-2006, 06:50 AM
if natural point did this they would take a bunch of pedal customers to buy trakir because they would have extreemly precise pedals as well

i think the key for trakir to be succesfull is to give as many use options as desired at this moment 6dof only looks cool from outside from inside has too many mistakes

HotelBushranger
07-25-2006, 06:55 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Everything's bloody lame to you, isnt it mate?

WWSensei
07-25-2006, 07:42 AM
Are you trying this with a vector clip? The vector clip keeps a realtive position of the head with three tracking points. When you only have a single dot then leaning left or right does, indeed, turn the head. With the vector clip it does not.

I actually do understand what you are saying but I need to double how it actually works with the vector clip.

raaaid
07-25-2006, 07:43 AM
no not everything just whats lame like hostility to new ideas and criticism

raaaid
07-25-2006, 08:02 AM
i know im bloody right about the mistake on the leaning axe

i also know nobody will admitt it here because hey its the insane raaaid its imposible he realizes of something the guys of natural point did not see

i would have called it gunsight effect with 5dof with rudder and i would have done it as i explained

i have no yet trackir but ive seen enough videos of 6dof to judge it

HotelBushranger
07-25-2006, 08:04 AM
I think half the problem is some people have trouble actually understand what you say. It's rather jumbled sometimes.

raaaid
07-25-2006, 08:08 AM
i know hotelbushranger i hope somebody sees my point and explains it better

i got mad with you because lately all answers to me had been nice

i enjoy the forums and im myself here most of the things i talked about here i wouldnt tell my friends because here im anonymous

thats why i get pissed of when i get annoying answers becuase im myself and i think im good so i cant understand why people behaves mean with me at times

Cdn.401GATOR
07-25-2006, 08:09 AM
Hey Raaid,

You should write Al Gore, between the two of you all the problems of the world are solved!

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-5/729624/propaganda_penguin.jpg

http://lp.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/gorered.jpg

x6BL_Brando
07-25-2006, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">no not everything just whats lame like hostility to new ideas and criticism </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On stage this is called 'working the audience' raaid. I find your method of exploiting your 'supporters' and your 'detractors' quite 'lame' as well.
Do you have a 6DoF setup then? And what sim are you using it in? Have you taken this to the Naturalpoint forums?
Here is a thread (http://forums.naturalpoint.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=32;t=000256) that has some relevance to your problem. Maybe you'd like to discuss it with other users and the NP techies.

You might just realise that there is plenty of polite interaction and continual development going on.
I started by using SmartNav - as a mouse alternative for disabled people like myself - and grabbed a TrackIR when they first appeared. Since then I've never seen the Support and development teams be anything except courteous and helpful in implementing user-feedback to polish the performance.

Whether you'll have any success with your poor-me, misunderstood-genius attitude is debatable.

B.

raaaid
07-25-2006, 08:30 AM
i dont consider myself genious at all i suppose i must have an iq of 120

but theres something special about me like many others i think by miself and thought is powerfull

i dont have supportters nor detractors the point is even simpler attacking me is wrong because its known im good, treating me good is good because then again im good

but the truth is that i have not a single supporter but people who know how to act well

proof im right but nobody will say so

Grue_
07-25-2006, 08:36 AM
I think you need to try it out raaaid.

The only quirk with TrackIR with 6DOF is when you're looking over your shoulder (looking at the left side of your monitor for example) and then lean your head left and right- the movement is reversed which takes a bit of getting used to - but you can get used to it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

raaaid
07-25-2006, 08:57 AM
one year prior to existing publically trackir i posted here saying i would wait for trackir to recognize movement inside the cockpit to look behind bars so i have to try this out:

ill wait for trackir to have a gunsight effect and the lean effect to be taken off and substitued by rudder (optional) before buying it


im a butterfly whos wings cause hurricanes in the other ends of time

Chuck_Older
07-25-2006, 10:05 AM
All the "I invented the idea first" stuff aside:

These ideas do not mimic the body mechanics of a head actually leaning 90*. My neck does not stick out from my head radially; my neck curves, my head doesn't 'spin'. What it does mimic is an axle through the center of my face coming out the back of my head, around which my head can spin.

Leaning left or right moves your head away from 'center', angles your head, and lowers your perspective all at the same time. Try it

If I look, right now, at the vent in the ceiling ten feet away, and I lean forward as far as I can, my brain isn't sending me any signals that tell me that that object has "grown" because my eyes are 1.5' closer to it because I leaned forward. The thing I notice much more is a perspective change

SeaFireLIV
07-25-2006, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
im a butterfly whos wings cause hurricanes in the other ends of time </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


ok.

VMF-Blaze_UG
07-25-2006, 10:51 AM
Since this subject has come up, I have a question concerning 6DOF...

Itseems to only partially work for me, in this sim. When I raise or lower my head shouldn't I be zooming in or out?

Well this factor doesn't work here for me, I have to manually zoom. Now every thing else works fine and without a problem.

I'm involved with every flight sim out there and and zooming works for them if specified.

Should the zoom work, and if the answer is yes does anyone have an idea as to just what I might be doing wrong..

Blaze

OD_79
07-25-2006, 10:56 AM
It would help if the posts made sense, as I said I hadn't got a clue what you were talking about, and I don't think I like the idea of using my head for a rudder!
Like I said I have not had many problems with it, though it has been a while since I tried it in FS9.
Maybe if you explained things clearer and in one post rather than loads it would be easier to understand what you are talking about. Oh and maybe drop the I said this ages ago look how great I am routine.

OD.

Scragbat
07-25-2006, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">i know im bloody right about the mistake on the leaning axe </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just chill a little http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Maybe you are right, but leave a little room for 'maybe I'm not come to think about it'. Your 'independent invention' may work differently to the real 'invention' that we can buy. This attitude of 'I'm right and everybody else is wrong', will win you no friends.

Just relax and stop thinking everyone else is against you. Continue the debate and accept that not everybody will agree with you and that you may actually (heaven forbid), be wrong...

WB_Outlaw
07-25-2006, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
if i lean(spin) my head to the left without 6d0f apparently the image screen spins to the right in my brain so no need at all of this axe in fact adding it is a mistake

i lean my head to horizontality 90º:

without 6d0f works as real life ill see the horizont vertical
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you just said is totally ignorant and wrong. What are your definitions of LEAN and SPIN? The are two DIFFERENT words with two DIFFERENT meanings. If you LEAN your head to the left, without 6dof, the TrackIR interprets this as ROTATING(spinning) your head to the left, NOT LEANING your head to the left.

In REAL LIFE, if I LEAN MY HEAD to the left 90 degrees, I DO NOT SEE HORIZONTAL LINES AS VERTICAL. The image your brain sees DOES NOT rotate when you lean your head.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
with 6d0f ill see the horizont horizontal because as i put the head horizontal 6d0f puts the horizont vertical reading my head movement
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing you posted makes any sense at all. You have NO IDEA what you're talking about. You don't even OWN the product. All you can say is "APPARENTLY".

If clues were free you still wouldn't have one.


--Outlaw.

raaaid
07-25-2006, 11:26 AM
if it was somthing easy to see somebody else would have realized and point out but is something very subttle

lets take a motorcycle game when you lean to take the curve youll see the horizont almost vertical on the screen

to avoid this you lean your head to see the horizont horizontal as real pilots do(without 6dof)

in the motorcycle game the sky is vertical on the screen so you lean your head to see it horizontal, whats the need of 6dof leaning axe?

now lets consider you implement the leaning axe,this is the subttle part

you see the horizont vertical because you are leaning on the curve and want to see it horizontal so you lean your head as motorbikers do so now the screen spins and the horizont is horizontal again on the screen

great, problem fixed if you are looking from outside but if you carry the dots in your head you have leaned your head so youll see the horizontal vertical, funny isnt it? think about it

the 6th dof is not only useless but unrealistic if used

raaaid
07-25-2006, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In REAL LIFE, if I LEAN MY HEAD to the left 90 degrees, I DO NOT SEE HORIZONTAL LINES AS VERTICAL. The image your brain sees DOES NOT rotate when you lean your head </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you think before you speak?

just make the test, as you lean your head 90º( starting from vertical) make a movie of the horizont

then watch it and tell me if you see horizont in the screen horizontal or vertical
and if it spins or not


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

NonWonderDog
07-25-2006, 11:36 AM
I *think* I know what raaaid is on about this time.

Say you're flying a German plane with the gunsight on the right side of the cockpit. Say you have TrackIR with 6DoF. Say you lean the lower right in order to align your gunsight. As you do so, you have to move your eyes to the upper left in order to actually SEE the gunsight you leaned towards.

I don't have TrackIR, and I'm pretty sure this isn't a problem at all for people that DO have TrackIR since the head movements required are so small. I'm just trying to translate for raaaid here.

raaaid
07-25-2006, 11:44 AM
nonwonderdog no is not that what i meant

my point is what you need the 6th degree of freedom for if you can already spin the image of the screen by spinning your head(lean) without the need of 6dof

but you got a very interesting point

SeaFireLIV
07-25-2006, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
I'm just trying to translate for raaaid here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A mistake, NonWonderDog.

Scragbat
07-25-2006, 12:00 PM
Our complex brains help make up the deficiencies in 3D representations on a 2D screen. We know a 3D image has no depth but we can percieve it through perspectives, light and shade.

The way the horizon moves when you use 6dof is probably the best way to represent it on a 2D screen. I don't know myself, I haven't go 6dof.

Raaid invented it first though so it must be wrong...

SeaFireLIV
07-25-2006, 12:03 PM
Nice sig, scragbat.

A change in style for you, I notice.

Scragbat
07-25-2006, 12:09 PM
I think what Raaid is trying to say is that in leaning in the cockpit or on a motorbike you will try to keep you head upright anyway to keep the horizon level with your eyes regardless as to how your brain percieves the horizon. Sort of like those Indian dancers that do that funny thing with their head!

Is he trying to say that 6dof should do this automatically and not tilt the horizon as you lean. With the three reflective dots that control 6dof, if you leaned and corrected your heads level 6dof would level the horizon anyway.
Once again, I'm guessing as I only have 2dof TrackIR...

Footage that I have seen of aerobatic pilots turning through all degrees shows that they keep their head level and don't tilt (I think). They must train themselves to do this and be aware of their orientation and the level of the horizon.

Raaid, perhaps you should invent your version of 6dof and market it...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Nice sig, scragbat.

A change in style for you, I notice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers, thought it needed jazzing up. Spent a productive afternoon at work doing it LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

WB_Outlaw
07-25-2006, 12:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
lets take a motorcycle game when you lean to take the curve youll see the horizont almost vertical on the screen

to avoid this you lean your head to see the horizont horizontal as real pilots do(without 6dof)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO, I don't. I NEVER lean my head when I play a game just b/c the image on the screen tilted. Real pilots DO NOT LEAN THEIR HEADS when they bank the aircraft. If they did, they would be looking at the instrument panel sideways.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
now lets consider you implement the leaning axe,this is the subttle part

you see the horizont vertical because you are leaning on the curve and want to see it horizontal so you lean your head as motorbikers do so now the screen spins and the horizont is horizontal again on the screen

great, problem fixed if you are looking from outside but if you carry the dots in your head you have leaned your head so youll see the horizontal vertical, funny isnt it? think about it

the 6th dof is not only useless but unrealistic if used </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again, nearly everything in this post is wrong. The point of 6 dof is to look around things. It's NOT to "see the horizontal horizontal" instead of vertical.

Motorcyclists DO NOT keep their heads upright to keep the horizon level. THE HORIZON DOES NOT TILT WHEN YOU TILT YOUR HEAD! They keep their heads upright so that their field of view does not slew all over the place and to prevent motion sickness.

All of this is moot anyway b/c the ratio between virtual and real movement is much greater than 1. For example, I turn my head about 20 degrees to get 180 degrees of rotation in the TrackIR.

--Outlaw.

NekoReaperman
07-25-2006, 01:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When you only have a single dot then leaning left or right does, indeed, turn the head. With the vector clip it does not.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, i have the vector clip (trackir 4 pro) and leaning the head turns the view for me, annoying as hell

WB_Outlaw
07-25-2006, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NekoReaperman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When you only have a single dot then leaning left or right does, indeed, turn the head. With the vector clip it does not.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, i have the vector clip (trackir 4 pro) and leaning the head turns the view for me, annoying as hell </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the game doesn't support 6dof, leaning will turn your head despite the use of a vector clip. Even with 6dof support I just can't lean my head without turning it at the same time. Maybe I'm just really uncoordinated.

--Outlaw.

WB_Outlaw
07-25-2006, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In REAL LIFE, if I LEAN MY HEAD to the left 90 degrees, I DO NOT SEE HORIZONTAL LINES AS VERTICAL. The image your brain sees DOES NOT rotate when you lean your head </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you think before you speak?

just make the test, as you lean your head 90º( starting from vertical) make a movie of the horizont

then watch it and tell me if you see horizont in the screen horizontal or vertical
and if it spins or not


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry I missed this one...

Are you comparing a MOVIE to what I SEE in real life? "Real life" view does NOT BEHAVE ANYTHING LIKE THE VIEW A CAMCORDER RECORDS.

OK, here's a test for you. Print out this page on a piece of paper. Now, while reading this message ON THE SCREEN, lean you head 90 degrees to the left. Hold up the printed version of the screen next to the monitor but TURN IT 90 DEGREES TO THE LEFT. You will notice that you read the screen from left to right EVEN WITH YOUR HEAD leaned over 90 degrees. However, you read the printed page from top to bottom EVEN WITH YOUR HEAD leaned over 90 degrees. So, turning your head IN REAL LIFE, DOES NOT ROTATE YOUR VIEW. IT DOES NOT MAKE HORIZONTAL VERTICAL.

For the view on the screen to approximate what banking is really like, the horizon should stay level and the COCKPIT should rotate around the screen. Since the screen is not round and our bodies are stationary and won't follow the cockpit, that won't work. So the only solution is to rotate the horizon on the screen.

Banking the aircraft and leaning your head produce two different visual effects.

--Outlaw.

alphalvr
07-25-2006, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
i have already explained how the axe in which you move closer or farther from the screen should imply a shrink of image as you close by, just as a real gunsight

but i have find something still more lame

take the leaning axe:

if i lean(spin) my head to the left without 6d0f apparently the image screen spins to the right in my brain so no need at all of this axe in fact adding it is a mistake

i lean my head to horizontality 90º:

without 6d0f works as real life ill see the horizont vertical

with 6d0f ill see the horizont horizontal because as i put the head horizontal 6d0f puts the horizont vertical reading my head movement

isnt this lame?

im beggining to be more suspicious that natural point read my idea about 6dof and develop it all wrong, hell if it was this way they could have asked me

so the leaning axe is useless but it could be used for something else like helping disable play the game using it as rudder for example

5dof is plenty enough </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

its bloody great, i dunno why you keep going on about it...especially in this forum when the game only uses two axis......oh yes i forgot, you invented it didnt you.

when i was young i dreamed of going to the moon....i invented landing on the moon, nasa just stole my dream and the worst is they never even did it right cuz they didnt use me :/

StellarRat
07-25-2006, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
one year prior to existing publically trackir i posted here saying i would wait for trackir to recognize movement inside the cockpit to look behind bars so i have to try this out:

ill wait for trackir to have a gunsight effect and the lean effect to be taken off and substitued by rudder (optional) before buying it


im a butterfly whos wings cause hurricanes in the other ends of time </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I can't understand what you're trying to say here. Is English your native language?

WWSensei
07-25-2006, 02:52 PM
Raaiid,

Just for your information--not a slam--just data for you. trackIR works differently with the vector clip than without the vector clip.

Without the vector clip it does behave in the manner you are describing--a lean left or right appears to turn the head.

With the vector clip it does not do this as it uses three points of reference instead of one so it able to tell you are leaning and not actually turning your head. I will have to double check what it does exactly in FS2004 when I view the screen at 90 degrees versus normal vertical orientation.

SeaFireLIV
07-25-2006, 03:16 PM
The reason I view this stuff is because I find it absolutely fascinating. I puzzle on this time and again... the way the individual human brain can... work.

Reminds me of the time I decided to say hello to my new next door neighbour, and after a 10 minute discussion, he said, "I`m schizophrenic."

raaaid
07-25-2006, 03:19 PM
i film the horizont in an horizontal positon while i watch from the same position the horizont on a tv, how do i see the horizont on tv?

upside down, funny isnt it?

do the math 90+90=180 or is there anybody who disagrees with this?

raaaid
07-25-2006, 03:23 PM
just somebody tells me he agrees and understand my last statement because if not thers no point in discussing farther

Mackane1
07-25-2006, 03:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
i film the horizont in an horizontal positon while i watch from the same position the horizont on a tv, how do i see the horizont on tv?

upside down, funny isnt it?

do the math 90+90=180 or is there anybody who disagrees with this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Seven goes into twenty eight...thirteen times! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
http://home.si.rr.com/skywolf/abbcost.jpg

blindpugh
07-25-2006, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
Raaiid,

Just for your information--not a slam--just data for you. trackIR works differently with the vector clip than without the vector clip.

Without the vector clip it does behave in the manner you are describing--a lean left or right appears to turn the head.

With the vector clip it does not do this as it uses three points of reference instead of one so it able to tell you are leaning and not actually turning your head. I will have to double check what it does exactly in FS2004 when I view the screen at 90 degrees versus normal vertical orientation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Sensei, I would say this guy is suffering delusions of granduer the trak ir guys should stay well away from him --and so should we.not having either trak-ir three or four doesnt help his case either.

raaaid
07-25-2006, 03:59 PM
listen guys if nobody sees my point of seeing things upside down ill have to conclude im the smartest or most stupid guy here

raaaid
07-25-2006, 04:06 PM
any how seeing somebody more intellignt or stupid than you is no reason for insult

i just said i talked of 6dof 1 year prior to its publication

do you think such a new technolgy is totally developed to its full extension?

the difference between you and me is that im constructive while you are destructive

as for the 6th dof i dont give a damm ill turn it off and let others play wrong

i just mind about the gunsight effect and i can tell you thatll be implemented, with time

i can see people like you in ww2 when the optical gunsight was implemented saying

nah having a changing size crosshair is stupid, planes dont change size by closing up 20cm

WB_Outlaw
07-25-2006, 06:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
i film the horizont in an horizontal positon while i watch from the same position the horizont on a tv, how do i see the horizont on tv?

upside down, funny isnt it?

do the math 90+90=180 or is there anybody who disagrees with this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


This makes no sense. You are not using English correctly.

This is what I get from your posts. Below is a picture of a doorway in my house...
http://www.helpraaaid.com/doorway.jpg

According to you, if you lean your head sideways, this is what you see...

http://www.helpraaaid.com/sidewaysdoorway.jpg

If THAT is what your brain sees, you are in need of serious help.

You stated multiple times the term "REAL LIFE". You can't compare an image captured with a camera to what you see in "REAL LIFE".


As far as the zoom goes, as I said before, THE WHOLE POINT BEHIND THE ZOOM IS TO MAKE THINGS BIGGER ON THE SCREEN. It's not a question of knowing that your eye doesn't see it that way. It's a question of making it possible to see things THAT OUR EYE COULD SEE in real life BUT CAN'T SEE ON THE MONITOR (or in my case an 87" projected image http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

--Outlaw.

BfHeFwMe
07-25-2006, 07:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
any how seeing somebody more intellignt or stupid than you is no reason for insult

i just said i talked of 6dof 1 year prior to its publication

do you think such a new technolgy is totally developed to its full extension?

the difference between you and me is that im constructive while you are destructive

as for the 6th dof i dont give a damm ill turn it off and let others play wrong

i just mind about the gunsight effect and i can tell you thatll be implemented, with time

i can see people like you in ww2 when the optical gunsight was implemented saying

nah having a changing size crosshair is stupid, planes dont change size by closing up 20cm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is wrong, the gunsite image doesn't change size based upon your head position. It's solely regulated by the distance of the projection lense and the display glass.

So much for genius. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Old_Canuck
07-25-2006, 07:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by x6BL_Brando:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">no not everything just whats lame like hostility to new ideas and criticism </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On stage this is called 'working the audience' raaid. .... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good observation. This is one of the factors that has made raaaid the longest running and most successful troll of all time in this forum. A dubious but well-earned distinction he has earned by "staying in character."

raaaid
07-26-2006, 04:48 AM
your vision is composed of a camera, the eyes, and a screen, the brain

if you lean the camera the image in the screen leans as well, just as the pictures of your cat( it seemed amazed at you)

if you measure with a rule the size of a real gunsight youll see it does change size

is it posible to connect a camera and tv?

take a picture of the tv that shows what the camera sees, a picture of infinite

zoom in zoom out change tv position on the frame, different infinities

lean the camera more or less youll get an in finite spiral

lean the camera 90º the picture on tv will appear upside down infinitelly

why?

hell i cant convince you that if you lean your head the image on your brain leans how im gonna explain you this

jesus draw your nose in the pictures and take it as a reference of what is vertical

i like the feeling of not having a single friend here because then i can swithc to fight discuss mode

WB_Outlaw
07-26-2006, 05:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
your vision is composed of a camera, the eyes, and a screen, the brain

if you lean the camera the image in the screen leans as well, just as the pictures of your cat( it seemed amazed at you)

if you measure with a rule the size of a real gunsight youll see it does change size

is it posible to connect a camera and tv?

take a picture of the tv that shows what the camera sees, a picture of infinite

zoom in zoom out change tv position on the frame, different infinities

lean the camera more or less youll get an in finite spiral

lean the camera 90º the picture on tv will appear upside down infinitelly

why?

hell i cant convince you that if you lean your head the image on your brain leans how im gonna explain you this

jesus draw your nose in the pictures and take it as a reference of what is vertical

i like the feeling of not having a single friend here because then i can swithc to fight discuss mode </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


raaaid,
Look at my second picture. When you lean your head 90 degrees to one side, does it look like people (in this case one of my cats) are walking on the walls to you?

--Outlaw.

BSS_Goat
07-26-2006, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
ill have to conclude im the smartest or most stupid guy here </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Lets start a poll.....

raaaid
07-26-2006, 06:00 AM
this is getting funny

if you take horizontality from an outside reference you are right

but if you take some inside reference like your nose im right

it all depends on the reference

Rooks-
07-26-2006, 06:06 AM
If you lean your head 90 to the right in a cockpit you see the instruments at 90 degrees right?
It doesn't matter if the plane rolls, loops or passes through an interdimensional vortex - 90 degrees is still 90 degrees its all relative http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif .
Now can we get to the important stuff of bashing one aircraft or another
Here, 109's were the worst warplane ever! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

raaaid
07-26-2006, 06:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you lean your head 90 to the right in a cockpit you see the instruments at 90 degrees right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

with the 6th dof implemented you wont

youll see it upside down or with 0º dpending on how the 6th dof is implemented

thats why the 6th dof is redundant

WB_Outlaw
07-26-2006, 06:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
this is getting funny

if you take horizontality from an outside reference you are right

but if you take some inside reference like your nose im right

it all depends on the reference </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn't answer my question. Does it look like people are walking on the walls to you when you lean your head 90 degrees? References do NOT matter when it comes to answering this question.

--Outlaw.

raaaid
07-26-2006, 06:34 AM
of course people do not walk on the walls

but now you see the walls perpendicular to your nose when before you saw them paralel

you let the outside be your point of reference mine is my within

WB_Outlaw
07-26-2006, 06:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
of course people do not walk on the walls

but now you see the walls perpendicular to your nose when before you saw them paralel

you let the outside be your point of reference mine is my within </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You won't answer my question. The only possible reason is that you know you are wrong. I will, however, give you the benefit of the doubt and give you one more chance to just answer this question. It's a yes or no question, nothing more. Here goes...

Does it look like people are walking on the walls to you when you lean your head 90 degrees?

--Outlaw.

The-Pizza-Man
07-26-2006, 06:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
the lean axe:

i lean my head 90º to horizontallity i should see horizont vertical but with 6dof as i lean left it spins the image left as well so in the end ill be horizontal and see the horizont horizontal huh?

ill be with my head horizontal and the horizont in the screen will be vertical, result ill see the horizont always horizontala however much i lean my head

isnt this lame?

it would work perfectly 5dof the 6th can be used as rudder for thsose disable of with no money to buy a rudder </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except it doesn't work like that. Track IR, which is what you are calling 6DoF (which is really something else entirely), exaggerates your movements. So if you lean your head 90 degrees it would rotate the image some multiple of 90 degrees. More realistically you'd lean your something like 10 degrees to the side and the image on screen would rotate 90 degrees. While not perfect, it is the nature of the beast. The exact same effect exists on the other rotation DoF.

raaaid
07-26-2006, 07:04 AM
yes but my whole point is that the 6th dof is redundant

why you need to spin the virtual camera on the 6th dof when you can spin your head in front of the monitor without need of the 6th dof?

being redundant means using it bring mistakes as if you have a real time translation ratio from your real head to the virtual camera by spinning your head on the 6th dof 90º youll see the image upside down

as simple as that

is it really posible that nobody sees this point?

raaaid
07-26-2006, 07:12 AM
i wished i had the money most guys here seem to have and have a 6dof game, trackir6dof and a digital camera

i would set 6dof to have a real time ratio between the movements of my head and the virtual camera

i would lean(spin) my head 90º and take a picture

i would post the picture here upside down shutting all mouths

but thanks destiny for not giving me that money because now i can enjoy keeping a discussion against everybody and being right

raaaid
07-26-2006, 07:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Does it look like people are walking on the walls to you when you lean your head 90 degrees? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes

when the wall and floor are alike

Cdn.401GATOR
07-26-2006, 07:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:

i would lean(spin) my head 90º and take a picture

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you draw us what you mean?

Quite frankly, I don't know if anybody told you this before but your addlebrained writing is a little hard to follow.

For instance above you mention "lean (spin) "

Definition of lean: to incline or bend from a vertical position; "She leaned over the banister"

Definition of spin: revolve quickly and repeatedly around one's own axis; "The dervishes whirl around and around without getting dizzy"

Now if you meant that we are supposed to do both actions, for instance lean AND spin then you should emphasize this by the use of the conjunction "and".

It was Albert Einstein who said:

"If you cannot explain it simply, you do not understand it well enough".

http://www.centrolamatk.com/comuni/Einstein%20-%20jazyk%20cb.jpg

raaaid
07-26-2006, 08:03 AM
look guys i have explained what i mean well enough as for the guys of natural point to have realized the redundancy of the 6th dof because if they have a job developing new things they must be intelligent

they already know of the gunsight effect what was my intention and theyll implement it in the future as the mouse view was implemented in the past

im getting tired of the people of this forum who has plenty of time to search the web for pictures of norman bates to annoy me and so on but wont bother to take a screen shot for me

this i should expect and no more seeing how people behave online thinking that by changing names theyll get away with their poorness

WB_Outlaw
07-26-2006, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Does it look like people are walking on the walls to you when you lean your head 90 degrees? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes

when the wall and floor are alike </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, once again you have NOT answered the question but, close enough.

When normal people lean their head, nothing rotates, regardless of whether or not the walls and floor look alike. People on the floor stay on the floor and the floor stays where it is. The view does not rotate around the center like it does when you rotate a camera. If that's the way you see things when you lean your head, you don't see the way everyone else does.

So, there is no need for Natural Point to change anything. It all works perfectly for people with normal vision.

--Outlaw.

OD_79
07-26-2006, 08:51 AM
Got to be honest I don't think English is his first language and it makes absolutely no sense what he is saying.
Lean, Spin, gunsight...not got a clue what you are on about, I'd like to understand but it's all jumbled. The best way you can demonstrate it is to draw it out because your English is not good enough to explain it clearly.
Like the other guy said, if you see people walking on the wall you might want to see a doctor.

OD.

OD_79
07-26-2006, 08:55 AM
I'm going to put FS2004 on my PC again to see if I can see what he is talking about! But I doubt the people at Naturalpoint got it that wrong, and I don't remember having a problem before.

OD.

arjisme
07-26-2006, 09:39 AM
I don't own a TIR capable of doing 6dof, nor a game that supports it. However, I think raaid is questioning whether it is appropriate for TIR's 6dof to simulate rotating the virtual pilot's head when you tilt (i.e. rotate) your head, say, 90 degrees to the left. So, can someone confirm if TIR does this? I can see it needing to support translation of the virtual head left, right, up, down, forward, & back, but it shouldn't need to support rotating the head too. I'm not sure that it does the rotation part, but that is what I think raaid is claiming.

SeaFireLIV
07-26-2006, 09:46 AM
Are you all doing this for fun? Since try as I might, I cannot see a happy ending to this farce.

Scragbat
07-26-2006, 09:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Does it look like people are walking on the walls to you when you lean your head 90 degrees? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes

when the wall and floor are alike </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't to me. Nothing turns/rotates. This is all about perception. Your brain will tell you nothing has changed and that people are not walking on walls and the world hasn't suddenly flipped 90 degrees to one side. If you experience otherwise then there is something wrong with your perception...

The brain is an incredibly complex aparatus that many take for granted. We are amazing!

OD_79
07-26-2006, 09:56 AM
Well just tried it all out and...drumroll please...don't know what the fuss is about to be honest!
Took a minute or two to get my head round this leaning and looking behind me business after being so used to IL2's pivot, but it's fine.

OD.

dieg777
07-26-2006, 09:57 AM
Track ir is simply a means of controlling the in game camera. like the mouse or hatswitch on a joystick.

If you have suggestions of improving the control of the views using this device then contact the manufacturer - they are nice people and will listen to reason.

If you think you can do better than existing camera control systems then feel free to do so , research , develop and market your product then all can judge wether you are correct in your assumptions of greatness or wether existing technologies do the job better. You will have evidence , via your profits, of the correctness of your arguement

Scragbat
07-26-2006, 09:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ar****e:
I don't own a TIR capable of doing 6dof, nor a game that supports it. However, I think raaid is questioning whether it is appropriate for TIR's 6dof to simulate rotating the virtual pilot's head when you tilt (i.e. rotate) your head, say, 90 degrees to the left. So, can someone confirm if TIR does this? I can see it needing to support translation of the virtual head left, right, up, down, forward, & back, but it shouldn't need to support rotating the head too. I'm not sure that it does the rotation part, but that is what I think raaid is claiming. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if it does either and it would be handy for someone to tell us. If it does rotate the view when you tilt your head, yes the image on screen will tilt contrary to what our brain would percieve in the real world, but 6dof is a simulation of movement. I think the view should tilt even though this may not be completely accurate.

At least TIR 6dof is showing you that your head is tilting in the simulated 3D environment. It may not be right but we can percieve what it means. It won't make me dizzy, fall out of my chair or completely screw the game or sense of immersion for me...

My 2 pennies

Woof603
07-26-2006, 10:05 AM
I'm getting a horrible feeling that Raaid is really RayBanJockey come back to haunt us all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Scragbat
07-26-2006, 10:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woof603:
I'm getting a horrible feeling that Raaid is really RayBanJockey come back to haunt us all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

D'ya know, I was thinking the same thing!

6Dof would work much better if it could simulate trim on a slider http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

widdershins
07-26-2006, 10:29 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU58k2Tazoo
Does he mean that the head tilt and effect generated as seen from 3:45 to 3:51 is redundant and not needed?

WB_Outlaw
07-26-2006, 10:55 AM
I don't have a game that supports 6dof, however, looking at the "in game head" in the TrackIR software, if you just tilt your head, the in game head only tilts. The problem is, it's physically very difficult to just tilt your head without rotating it. Especially in my case where I am leaning back with my head against a headrest.

This isn't what raaaid is talking about however. He incorrectly believes that the reason for having a roll axis on the TrackIR is so that we can lean our heads so that the horizon is always horizontal. He also believes that since the monitor is stationary, this can be accomplished without TrackIR by keeping the in game head level and leaning our real life head. If it works for him, great, but normal people do not see the world rotate around the center of their vision when they lean their head to one side. When I do what he's describing, the in game horizon is still tilted in my vision so nothing is accomplished. The only thing that happens is the center of my vision translates about 6 inches (the vertical distance from my eyes to the center of rotation of my head) to the side.

He is looking at the way a camera or camcorder "sees" things and believes that our vision works the same way. He is correct in that the image we see is rotated against our retina, however, what he doesn't understand is that our brains "correct" this tilted image. Maybe his doesn't, which would explain a lot.

Now, if we were experiencing zero G in a square room with all white walls evenly lighted from all sides and we were blindfolded and we were spun around in a gyroscope so that our equilibrium was all messed up and we were stopped so that we were horizontal and the blindfold suddenly removed, it would be exceedingly difficult for us to determine which way was up and it would look like someone who was strapped down to the floor before we were spun around was now strapped to the walls. Of course, as often as this situation happens to us in real life, it almost never happens in the game.


--Outlaw.

Scragbat
07-26-2006, 11:00 AM
Looking at that video brings me to the conclusion that TIR 6dof should simulate all the head postitions and movements.

As it stands most people I know who use TrackIR have sensity quite high. You cannot turn your head fully to the left (90 degrees) to look over the wing because you would move the monitor out of your field of view. We have sensitivity set higher so that smaller head movements will achieve this 90 degree movement without us losing sight of our monitor display.

In the same way that we make a smaller movements to look over the wing, we are not going to move all the way forward with 6dof to put our nose close to the gunsight. Sensitivity will be higher so this will be achieved with a smaller movement. Because of this the display should zoom in closer to the gunsight and zoom out when we make the movement backwards.

IMO all these movements will be simulated based on sensitivity settings and that includes the view rotating when we tilt our heads. If 6dof were to work contrary to this I would not invest in it. I think the way it does work is right and prior to BoB being released, I will upgrade to 6dof.

I think to achieve raaids idea of how 6dof should work would mean disabling certain parts of what is simulated and would make the device less attractive.

Leave it be...

I will not say anymore because quite frankly, it is confusing the **** out of me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Breeze147
07-26-2006, 11:09 AM
I think we should have a sticky with all of the best of Raaid posts.

TheGozr
07-26-2006, 11:17 AM
I think some drawings is needed for this..

widdershins
07-26-2006, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
people do not see the world rotate around the center of their vision when they lean their head to one side </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh... I understand now.

I remember one time many years ago I was VERY drunk and I fell over face first. To me, in my state of mind, the ground came up and hit my face while my body stayed upright & motionless. It took my brain a while to process what had happened... pretty funny actually.

raaaid
07-26-2006, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think raaid is questioning whether it is appropriate for TIR's 6dof to simulate rotating the virtual pilot's head when you tilt (i.e. rotate) your head, say, 90 degrees to the left. So, can someone confirm if TIR does this? I can see it needing to support translation of the virtual head left, right, up, down, forward, & back, but it shouldn't need to support rotating the head too. I'm not sure that it does the rotation part, but that is what I think raaid is claiming </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think raaid is questioning whether it is appropriate for TIR's 6dof to simulate rotating the virtual pilot's head when you tilt (i.e. rotate) your head, say, 90 degrees to the left. So, can someone confirm if TIR does this? I can see it needing to support translation of the virtual head left, right, up, down, forward, & back, but it shouldn't need to support rotating the head too. I'm not sure that it does the rotation part, but that is what I think raaid is claiming. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


at last someone got my point

and i insist with real time movement translation a lean of 90º would imply seeing the image upside down not with 90º as you should

WB_Outlaw
07-26-2006, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ar****e:
I don't own a TIR capable of doing 6dof, nor a game that supports it. However, I think raaid is questioning whether it is appropriate for TIR's 6dof to simulate rotating the virtual pilot's head when you tilt (i.e. rotate) your head, say, 90 degrees to the left. So, can someone confirm if TIR does this? I can see it needing to support translation of the virtual head left, right, up, down, forward, & back, but it shouldn't need to support rotating the head too. I'm not sure that it does the rotation part, but that is what I think raaid is claiming. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, with the vector expansion, the TrackIR is capable of doing this. Furthermore, it's appropriate and correct to do so.

The issue is that raaaid believes that if you are looking down a hallway with someone standing in front of you and you lean your head 90 degrees to the left, everything you see will rotate 90 degrees and the person will now appear to be standing on the wall sticking straight out horizontally.

So, in his example if you lean your physical head to the left 90 degrees, the in game horizon (along with the monitor, the desk, the room, etc.) will now be vertical (this is what he believes happens, it doesn't really). If you are using a 6dof TrackIR, your in game head will also turn 90 degrees, thus resulting in his "upside down" horizon with the TrackIR.

One of the many things he doesn't understand is that that he is apparently the only person who sees a sideways image when he leans his head 90 degrees. He also doesn't understand how the TrackIR works despite the fact that I and others have explained it to him. He choses to ignore things that he does not agree with.

In all fairness, I'll give it one more shot on the TrackIR concept.

raaaid, when using a TrackIR, you only turn/lean/translate your head a very small amount to get a very large amount of in game movement (my setup for rotation is about 20 degrees real movement to 180 degrees in game movement, or 9:1). If it was 1:1 as you apparently believe, then to look 90 degrees to the left in the game, you would have to turn your real head 90 degrees to the left. You would then no longer be looking at the monitor.


--Outlaw.

RCAF_Irish_403
07-26-2006, 03:24 PM
i'm lame for reading 5 pages of this http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

deepo_HP
07-26-2006, 08:06 PM
weia...

whatever is the talk here, the thing about noses and perpendicular walls and cats in horizons is:

- when you see your nose while watching the horizon, you either got one of never known size or you should consider optical correction of crosseyed sight.
- as long as you 'lean' your head in evolutionary and/or personally trained limts, you will experience things, which you concentrate on, the way they are supposed to be. this preliminary includes that the speed of movement stays in the range, which your inner ear can handle. in case, you move your visual apparatus too fast, you will get dizzy, up to sea-sick. in case, you move to angles, which your species never to rarely needed in it's development, you will need accustomisation or training. you might test the latter by doing a head-/handstand and watch your environment without concentrating on a specific object. after a while, depending on your adaptive flexibility, you will notice that the 'picture' has turned upside-down (meaning it looks the way as it should look if you were standing the normal way)... for what you won't be able to say the moment it happened.

so far concerning the 'examples' of tv, camera and horizon. simply said is there no comparing possible of vertebrate visual perception and optical representation by cameras. it is basically the same mistake, which is done when discussing framerates related to the illusion of movement.

last but not least i am not interested in trackir in any variant. nevertheless should the starter of the thread be more aware of the use of the software. in my view as a way to improve watching the simulated environment, useing natural behavioural feels. in that sense the overwhelming opposition to his theories should be reason enough to reconsider, if not his idea then his examples.

Aesuai
07-26-2006, 09:33 PM
I'm wondering if we're confusing the term lean with the term tilt. Also, I think that some of you are clouding your perception of what one sees with what you're actually seeing.
For instance, When I hear someone say they leaned to the left or right, that, to me suggests that you're moving your body to the left or right while keeping your head horizontal to the horizon. You lean left or right in the game to look around a visual obstacle (cockpit bar, etc.)
When I tilt my head, say 90 degrees, I roll from the base of my skull and what was once visible as horizontal now "appears" vertical.You make the adjustment in your brain and can continue functioning relatively because you retain your understanding of which direction "up" is. Why do you think a stunt pilot, while rolling the plane 90 degrees left or right would counter-roll (tilt) his/her head to keep their perception of the horizon consistantly horizontal? They want to keep "up" on top.
Now, about the cat and the hallway. The fact that you know a wall vertical and the floor is horizontal doesn't make the wall stay vertical and floor horizontal when you tilt your head 90 degrees. The relation to the wall and floor based on the orientation of your head does, in fact change. What you once percieved as vertical now appears horizontal, just like in the picture.
As far as the track IR thing goes, I do like the fact that it has the head roll feature to combine with the lean in the x axis. If i'm rolling the plane, I definitely want the ability to counter-roll with my head so that I can keep my enemy horizontal in my line of sight.
Like I said, maybe we're just arguing over semantics?

-HH-Quazi
07-26-2006, 10:34 PM
Great thread. HEHE

alert_1
07-27-2006, 01:58 AM
No hard feelings raaaid but I guess RBJ was better http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The-Pizza-Man
07-27-2006, 02:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
yes but my whole point is that the 6th dof is redundant

why you need to spin the virtual camera on the 6th dof when you can spin your head in front of the monitor without need of the 6th dof?

being redundant means using it bring mistakes as if you have a real time translation ratio from your real head to the virtual camera by spinning your head on the 6th dof 90º youll see the image upside down

as simple as that

is it really posible that nobody sees this point? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have that rotation so you don't have to almost break your neck to view the image more or less sideways. It is a lot easier to lean your head a little to one side and have track IR simulate a larger rotation through rotation of the image on the screen.

Also, it depends whether or not the game uses a local or global coordinate system. If it used a local system the rotation would be very important in making movements feel natural.

SeaFireLIV
07-27-2006, 03:27 AM
Page 5 and day number 3.

Yes... three days of going around in circles for Raiiid`s benefit. Amazing.

WB_Outlaw
07-27-2006, 06:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aesuai:
Now, about the cat and the hallway. The fact that you know a wall vertical and the floor is horizontal doesn't make the wall stay vertical and floor horizontal when you tilt your head 90 degrees. The relation to the wall and floor based on the orientation of your head does, in fact change. What you once percieved as vertical now appears horizontal, just like in the picture.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I stand corrected, apparently raaaid isn't the only one who see the world rotate when they lean(tilt) their head, or, maybe I'm the ONE who doesn't perceive the world this way. If that's the case, it's good to be me.

--Outlaw.

raaaid
07-27-2006, 07:18 AM
well id bet something that somebody already tried a 6dof game with 1:1 translation to tilt 90º to check if the image is upside down or not

so i was right in the end?

maybe then im right also about the convenience of the gunsight effect

WB_Outlaw
07-27-2006, 07:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
so i was right in the end?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

raaaid
07-27-2006, 07:43 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

NP_Vincent
07-28-2006, 06:02 PM
Some very good discussions, and information I will pass on to the programmers.