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ElSjonnie
06-23-2007, 11:45 AM
I've heard many suggestions, and searched through a lot of forum posts, and off course experimented a lot in-game, but I'm still in doubt about what aircraft to fly for PURE BnZ, Hit and Run style. What are the pro's and cons of the FW190D9/A6/8/9 and the P51/P47 for this purpose, and what would you suggest?

Henkie327
06-23-2007, 12:30 PM
Me 262 and the like vs slow propfighters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

neural_dream
06-23-2007, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by ElSjonnie:
I've heard many suggestions, and searched through a lot of forum posts, and off course experimented a lot in-game, but I'm still in doubt about what aircraft to fly for PURE BnZ, Hit and Run style. What are the pro's and cons of the FW190D9/A6/8/9 and the P51/P47 for this purpose, and what would you suggest?
In theory the P47 should be the best BnZ of the game, but it has machine guns and you need to concentrate on a spot of the enemy for a bit, while the FWs have fantastic cannon armament for blasting out the enemy in one pass.

I think that FW is hands down the best BnZ.

Brain32
06-23-2007, 12:52 PM
Tempest.

raaaid
06-23-2007, 12:54 PM
spitfire 25lbs

best climb rate which allows you to stay always above enemy

you can easily caught 190 with this plane flying above them on thinner air

VW-IceFire
06-23-2007, 12:55 PM
Any of the heavier fighters with four cannons are usually the ideal boom and zoom machine. The FW190, Tempest, F4U-1C Corsair...those are absolutely ideal as a superb boom and zoom style aircraft. There are others that are almost as good such as any of the Bf109s, the P-51, P-47, P-40, Ki-61, Ki-100, and the Ki-84 can do the BNZ thing pretty well too.

Using the tactic and the plane is also somewhat dependent on the opponent. For instance the P-40 is a great turn fighter against earlier 109s while it should be used as a strict BNZ machine against Zeros and Oscars. A FW190 could only be used to dogfight a large bomber with level stabilizer enaged on the other hand so boom and zoom is almost always the preferred method with that plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ElSjonnie
06-23-2007, 02:09 PM
but which FW190 would be best for HnR?

DKoor
06-23-2007, 03:31 PM
TA-152H FTW
No bar + nose Mk108 it just can't get much better than that.... plus it is actually more maneuverable than 747 Mk.I if you choose less than 100% fuel.

Jaws2002
06-23-2007, 09:04 PM
The five cannons Dornier.Do335 V13 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Five BIG cannons close to center line, two engines, scarry speed and zoom climb, boosted ailerons for great agility at high speed. Nothing with prop comes close. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif


http://www.simhq.com/_air7/images/Do-335V-13.jpg

LStarosta
06-23-2007, 09:09 PM
Ki-43

Sick climb rate, and nobody expects you to BnZ with it, giving you the Tacticool™ advantage. The guns are great too, and the sniper scope makes it almost unfair to the enemy.

leitmotiv
06-24-2007, 02:19 AM
Luke is right. The basis of tactics is to do the unexpected. Any fighter can use vertical tactics---vertical tactics are not dictated by the airplane. The age old wisdom is that the fighter that is highest will win. That's why everybody in WWI and WWII climbed for altitude for the best tactical position. In the Battle of Britain, the Spitfires and Hurricanes did not want set ups for turning battles from their controllers; they wanted to be set up higher and up sun so they could dive down and surprise the Germans. This T&B vs energy fighters nonsense is purely game world.

PF_Coastie
06-24-2007, 04:03 AM
I just wanted to comment on something. I see a couple of people here said XXX plane because it has a great climb rate. Climb rate does not make a good BnZ plane. Its zoom climb that does. The Spit is a great climber, but a terrible "zoom" climber.

In other words, if you dive on a plane from a 3k advantage and miss the shot, the Spit will not get all of that 3K back and you will be at less of a tactical advantage, but the P47 will.....among other planes!

neural_dream
06-24-2007, 06:42 AM
Originally posted by LStarosta:
Ki-43

Sick climb rate, and nobody expects you to BnZ with it, giving you the Tacticool™ advantage. The guns are great too, and the sniper scope makes it almost unfair to the enemy.
Exactly.

And I love that new word http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Tacticool

Jaws2002
06-24-2007, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
I just wanted to comment on something. I see a couple of people here said XXX plane because it has a great climb rate. Climb rate does not make a good BnZ plane. Its zoom climb that does. The Spit is a great climber, but a terrible "zoom" climber.

In other words, if you dive on a plane from a 3k advantage and miss the shot, the Spit will not get all of that 3K back and you will be at less of a tactical advantage, but the P47 will.....among other planes!


The spitfire is one of the best zoom climbers in this game unlike the real thing.
In this game is much better then the FW-190A for exemple, while the real things were clearly worse.

DKoor
06-24-2007, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
Climb rate does not make a good BnZ plane. Its zoom climb that does. +1

That's exactaly why the 47 & 51 are great bnzers.

Xiolablu3
06-24-2007, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
I just wanted to comment on something. I see a couple of people here said XXX plane because it has a great climb rate. Climb rate does not make a good BnZ plane. Its zoom climb that does. The Spit is a great climber, but a terrible "zoom" climber.

In other words, if you dive on a plane from a 3k advantage and miss the shot, the Spit will not get all of that 3K back and you will be at less of a tactical advantage, but the P47 will.....among other planes!


The spitfire is one of the best zoom climbers in this game unlike the real thing.
In this game is much better then the FW-190A for exemple, while the real things were clearly worse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I TOTALLY disagree with you here Jaws.

P47 and Fw190 are far better zoom climbers than the Spitfire, as long as you dont stray into powered climb.

PF_Coastie
06-24-2007, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
I just wanted to comment on something. I see a couple of people here said XXX plane because it has a great climb rate. Climb rate does not make a good BnZ plane. Its zoom climb that does. The Spit is a great climber, but a terrible "zoom" climber.

In other words, if you dive on a plane from a 3k advantage and miss the shot, the Spit will not get all of that 3K back and you will be at less of a tactical advantage, but the P47 will.....among other planes!


The spitfire is one of the best zoom climbers in this game unlike the real thing.
In this game is much better then the FW-190A for exemple, while the real things were clearly worse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I TOTALLY disagree with you here Jaws.

P47 and Fw190 are far better zoom climbers than the Spitfire, as long as you dont stray into powered climb. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly right! It must be a nearly vertical zoom climb.

The Spit is a very poor zoomer. You should do a few tests sometime Jaws.

Jaws2002
06-24-2007, 06:35 PM
This tests were done by Papa Fly some time ago. Not much changed between this planes since then. D9 is better then the spits, so is the P-47, The Pony is much better but the FW-190A is not better then the spits in Zoom climb.
If you go up with a spit on your six you are a dead duck unless you are much faster then him at the start.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/PapaFly/PlaneData/600-0.jpg

Xiolablu3
06-24-2007, 06:46 PM
That graph is absolutely WORTHLESS as a test of zoom climb.

The planes in it are zooming right into the powered climb, and carry on climbing as long as they can, you can see straight away that climb rate is the biggest factor having an oinfluence on that graph.

It is made to show an agenda, what is the point in testing the FW190A8 with Mk108 cannons? WHy not pick the normal FW190A8?

See how the Bf109K4 has the best result with its combined good zoom climb and excellent climb rate.

Also see how the SPitfire does OK with its excellent climb rate but not so good zoom climb.

See how the FW190 is the lowest because it has the worst climb of them all.

A true test of zoom climb would be from 600kph to around 300kph.


That graph is more a test of climb than zoom climb, hence the results. See how the Fw190D9 is equal to the SPitfire IX 25lbs even tho it has a far worse climb rate, that shows that the FW190D9 has a much better zoom climb if it was in a real test..

As for the FW190A8 - WHY the FW190A8 with Mk108 cannons? Whats the point? Unless the tester has an agenda.

Why didnt he test the Spitfire with a 500kph bomb underneath? It would make about as much sense.

See JTD's energy retention tests instead, they make much more sense than that ridiculous test. The contemporary FW190 has a far better zoom climb than the Spitfire, but a much poorer powered climb rate.

PF_Coastie
06-24-2007, 06:54 PM
The other big issue here is that 600kph is way to slow. A P47 will do 910 kph before buffeting, the spit only about 720kph max. Thats 200 kph energy advantage right there. Plus factor in the fact that the P47 is a better zoomer and you have the clear winner.

Same with the 190 having a much higher terminal velocity than the spit.

Xiolablu3
06-24-2007, 07:01 PM
Agreed.

The planes that will do best in that test is a light plane with very good power to weight.

It is around 1/3 test of zoom climb 2/3 test of powered climb.

Thjats why the Bf109 comes off so well in it and SPitfire also does well in the powered climb part.

The FW190A8 with Mk108 cannons is even heavier than the normal Fw190A8, it has a very poor sustained climb rate and so does very poorly in the test.

The FW190D9 does well in the zoom climb portion, but not so good in teh sustained climb. Nevertheless the zoom climb part makes up enough for its lower climb rate and it comes off quite well.

A far more accurate test is need for a proper zoom climb test. One which doesnt rely so much on the lightness of the plane and sustained climb rates.

Brain32
06-24-2007, 07:32 PM
A P47 will do 910 kph before buffeting, the spit only about 720kph max. Thats 200 kph energy advantage right there. Plus factor in the fact that the P47 is a better zoomer and you have the clear winner.

Same with the 190 having a much higher terminal velocity than the spit.
Ummmmm, what? You really never pushed those planes to absolute usable max? Buffeting is not an indicator, very often not even close.
P47 will do 1000kmh, FW190 will make it to 850 with wings still attached, but I wouldn't go over 840 just in case, SpitfireIX and VIII will make it to 820 but as with the FW190 I would back off at 810 just in case, so the FW190A has what? 30kmh to work with? Not much, enough for escape but not for a zoom climb if you have a Spit on your six

Blutarski2004
06-24-2007, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
The other big issue here is that 600kph is way to slow. A P47 will do 910 kph before buffeting, the spit only about 720kph max. Thats 200 kph energy advantage right there. Plus factor in the fact that the P47 is a better zoomer and you have the clear winner.

Same with the 190 having a much higher terminal velocity than the spit.


..... Coastie, you make a VERY good point. Zooming is not about pointing the nose up @ 375 mph; it's about coming out of a dive @ about 500-600 mph and THEN pointing the nose up.

Jaws2002
06-24-2007, 07:57 PM
If you read the results of the tests done by RAE on Faber's A3 you'll get to a line that sounds something like this: " when both planes are pulled up in a climb from cruise speed the 190 pulls away out of range rapidly with no hope for the Spitfire to catch up. If the pull up is done from a dive the advantage is even more marked.
Mk-XIV was the first spit to be able to stay with the 190A in a zoom exactly becausee of the greater climb rate and more weight for about the same drag. More weight means higher kinetic energy, and kinetik energy is what makes a plane zoomclimb.

The problem in this case is not the climb rate but the completely wrong modeling of the prop pitch/komando gerate of the 190A. Once the speed gets to 350km/h or lower the plane loses half the thrust. Is pointless to compare zoom climb of two fighter planes withgout taking into consideration all the speed spectrum unless one plane pulls away clearly out of shooting range before they got slow.


When was last time you pulled up in a zoom climb with a decent spit driver on your six and survived?

MrMojok
06-24-2007, 08:15 PM
ElSJonnie-

As an idea--- here is something you might be interested in trying. This is for practicing BnZ with different planes... practicing controlling your plane at high speeds, to check elevator control, the distance where you want to open fire, etc. This will attempt to simulate a target who does not see you... which is not likely in an offline campaign, but very likely in an online cockpit-on, no-icon or limited-icon server.

Use the full mission builder to create a line of planes that fly course 000 (for example), with a few hundred meters between each plane. They have one waypoint, which is miles ahead, on course 000. Set them to a cruising speed... not full throttle.

If you are going to practice BnZ in a Blue plane, FW190 for example... make this line of planes Blue also. This way, they are not going to manuever until you actually open fire on them.

Put your plane a couple thousand feet above them, at their 3 o'clock. You can swoop down from 3 o'clock, zoom back up, swoop down on another one from 9 o'clock. Back and forth, over and over. If you miss one, or just put a few rounds in him, after he spazzes out he will resume course 000, at cruise speed.

Make sure to record tracks of this and review them later. You can watch this track from the perspective of the enemy plane to see where your rounds are going.

It's a pretty simplistic idea but I have found that it helps me a lot.

Jaws2002
06-24-2007, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
That graph is absolutely WORTHLESS as a test of zoom climb.

The planes in it are zooming right into the powered climb, and carry on climbing as long as they can, you can see straight away that climb rate is the biggest factor having an oinfluence on that graph.

It is made to show an agenda, what is the point in testing the FW190A8 with Mk108 cannons? WHy not pick the normal FW190A8?

See how the Bf109K4 has the best result with its combined good zoom climb and excellent climb rate.

Also see how the SPitfire does OK with its excellent climb rate but not so good zoom climb.

See how the FW190 is the lowest because it has the worst climb of them all.

A true test of zoom climb would be from 600kph to around 300kph.


That graph is more a test of climb than zoom climb, hence the results. See how the Fw190D9 is equal to the SPitfire IX 25lbs even tho it has a far worse climb rate, that shows that the FW190D9 has a much better zoom climb if it was in a real test..

As for the FW190A8 - WHY the FW190A8 with Mk108 cannons? Whats the point? Unless the tester has an agenda.

Why didnt he test the Spitfire with a 500kph bomb underneath? It would make about as much sense.

See JTD's energy retention tests instead, they make much more sense than that ridiculous test. The contemporary FW190 has a far better zoom climb than the Spitfire, but a much poorer powered climb rate.

That graph is just one from that tests papa fly did. check this tread:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1211007724/p/1

This was vertical zoom climbing so the extra lift from the lower wing loading of the spitfire should be worthles. But regardless of that the spit is still better thanks to more efficient (IN GAME) prop and prop/pitch.

I'm aware of the great tests JTD did but if i remember corectly his zoomclimb tests are done with power off or engine idle.
Planes don`t fly like that in combat.

ViktorViktor
06-25-2007, 12:42 AM
I'd like to see what kind of stats you Oscar-lovers have earned from your BnZ exploits.

M_Gunz
06-25-2007, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
The spitfire is one of the best zoom climbers in this game unlike the real thing.
In this game is much better then the FW-190A for exemple, while the real things were clearly worse.

EDITED: I read what you wrote below the one I replied to, so what I wrote does not apply.

Also:

This was vertical zoom climbing so the extra lift from the lower wing loading of the spitfire should be worthles. But regardless of that the spit is still better thanks to more efficient (IN GAME) prop and prop/pitch.

What does that have to do with differences in net thrust to weight?

Bewolf
06-25-2007, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
That graph is absolutely WORTHLESS as a test of zoom climb.

The planes in it are zooming right into the powered climb, and carry on climbing as long as they can, you can see straight away that climb rate is the biggest factor having an oinfluence on that graph.

It is made to show an agenda, what is the point in testing the FW190A8 with Mk108 cannons? WHy not pick the normal FW190A8?

See how the Bf109K4 has the best result with its combined good zoom climb and excellent climb rate.

Also see how the SPitfire does OK with its excellent climb rate but not so good zoom climb.

See how the FW190 is the lowest because it has the worst climb of them all.

A true test of zoom climb would be from 600kph to around 300kph.


That graph is more a test of climb than zoom climb, hence the results. See how the Fw190D9 is equal to the SPitfire IX 25lbs even tho it has a far worse climb rate, that shows that the FW190D9 has a much better zoom climb if it was in a real test..

As for the FW190A8 - WHY the FW190A8 with Mk108 cannons? Whats the point? Unless the tester has an agenda.

Why didnt he test the Spitfire with a 500kph bomb underneath? It would make about as much sense.

See JTD's energy retention tests instead, they make much more sense than that ridiculous test. The contemporary FW190 has a far better zoom climb than the Spitfire, but a much poorer powered climb rate.

Actually I do not consider this graph as worthless for combat situations. I kinda doubt either the spit nor the 190 driver will cut their engies in a zoom climb. You just go up until you cant anymore and start to fall down again. This reflects the true nature of combat in this Sim much better then some theoretical zoom climb assumptiions. And the 190 "is" heavily gutted there, probably because of its low speed torque problems.

M_Gunz
06-25-2007, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
The other big issue here is that 600kph is way to slow. A P47 will do 910 kph before buffeting, the spit only about 720kph max. Thats 200 kph energy advantage right there. Plus factor in the fact that the P47 is a better zoomer and you have the clear winner.

Same with the 190 having a much higher terminal velocity than the spit.

Speed in dive is not speed starting back up. The zoom is not during the dive.

PF_Coastie
06-25-2007, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> A P47 will do 910 kph before buffeting, the spit only about 720kph max. Thats 200 kph energy advantage right there. Plus factor in the fact that the P47 is a better zoomer and you have the clear winner.

Same with the 190 having a much higher terminal velocity than the spit.
Ummmmm, what? You really never pushed those planes to absolute usable max? Buffeting is not an indicator, very often not even close.
P47 will do 1000kmh, FW190 will make it to 850 with wings still attached, but I wouldn't go over 840 just in case, SpitfireIX and VIII will make it to 820 but as with the FW190 I would back off at 810 just in case, so the FW190A has what? 30kmh to work with? Not much, enough for escape but not for a zoom climb if you have a Spit on your six </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brain, Of course I've pushed those planes to maximum. That is not what I said is it? I said Buffeting speed because the topic of this thread is "Aircraft for pure BnZ". What good is diving past buffet speed if you can not shoot accurately? Not to mention the higher chance of doing damage to your plane during pull up or not being able to pull up at all.

Top speeds should be used solely for Defense IMHO. It should be reserved for desperation when you are in dire trouble, NOT for an offensive attack when you already have a tactical advantage.

If I dive on a plane for a BnZ attack and he starts diving, I pull up. Because, for every kph he gains in his dive and for every meter he gets closer to the ground, I loose more and more of my tactical advantage. I have already won by making him dive because he is now in a lesser position than he was.

There are certain AC that are best for "pure BnZ" but it does absolutely no good if you use poor tactics with the best plane.

PF_Coastie
06-25-2007, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
The other big issue here is that 600kph is way to slow. A P47 will do 910 kph before buffeting, the spit only about 720kph max. Thats 200 kph energy advantage right there. Plus factor in the fact that the P47 is a better zoomer and you have the clear winner.

Same with the 190 having a much higher terminal velocity than the spit.

Speed in dive is not speed starting back up. The zoom is not during the dive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, but what are you trying to say? We are not talking about dive speeds here. But dive dive speed does play a big roll in zoom climb if you are using good BnZ tactics. (read my post above)

whiteladder
06-25-2007, 05:35 AM
If you are zooming in a Fw190 what is considered to be the optimum angle for this?

PF_Coastie
06-26-2007, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by whiteladder:
If you are zooming in a Fw190 what is considered to be the optimum angle for this?

It it totally dependant on the situation.

LStarosta
06-26-2007, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
I'd like to see what kind of stats you Oscar-lovers have earned from your BnZ exploits.

Tacticool™ stats.

cawimmer430
06-26-2007, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
The five cannons Dornier.Do335 V13 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Five BIG cannons close to center line, two engines, scarry speed and zoom climb, boosted ailerons for great agility at high speed. Nothing with prop comes close. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif


http://www.simhq.com/_air7/images/Do-335V-13.jpg


God do I love flying that baby. She's my new sweetheart. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

JG4_Helofly
06-26-2007, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by whiteladder:
If you are zooming in a Fw190 what is considered to be the optimum angle for this?

Simply don't climb if you just dove away from a spit. As soon as your nose go above the horizont the spit will catch up rapidly.