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dalexopoulos
01-09-2008, 06:18 AM
I have a problem with my Saitek Evo Force stick in IL2 1946 (the stick works fine in FXS). When I start a single player mission, in easy mode, with the B-239, the plane is on a slight right turn and the little ball in the yaw indicator is a little to the left. It also happens with other planes but it is not as pronounced as in the B-239. It is as if the rudder is centered a little to the right... In the Hardware set-up menu the stick semms to be calibrated, but when I start the flight, it looks as if the rudder is not centered.
Has any of you guys noticed anything similar?
Could it be a Vista issue? Could it be something with the joystick settings?
Thanks

Schwarz.13
01-09-2008, 06:21 AM
I can assure you it is the Saitek - i have an Evo Force in my cupboard that will never see the light of day again for precisely that problem (and others)!

There are other people who've had this exact same irritation too...

dalexopoulos
01-09-2008, 06:49 AM
Thanks. Weird though... with FSX it works fine...
What are you using for IL2 ?

Schwarz.13
01-09-2008, 07:52 AM
M$ Sidewinder Precision 2 (non-FFB)

P.S. Welcome to the forums http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

dalexopoulos
01-09-2008, 08:05 AM
Thanks!

I've read about this stick a lot. How come the best stick is so old and no one (not even Miscosoft) has bothered either to improve on it or at least keep it in production???
If it is so good (as many people say) why isn't Microsoft selling it anymore?
(Not of importance but really wierd...)

Farran1966
01-09-2008, 09:26 AM
I had the same problem with the Evo force as well. I normally fly the 109 and it was very pronounced here, the rudder was quite offset.

Funnily enough, it never seemed to zero properly in the calibration screen either and there seemed to be nothing I could do about it.

I have since changed to a CH Fighter Stick and Pro throttle, but now I have a different problem the wings aren't level, lol, It's like I have some aileron trim applied but I haven't.

I just can't win!

Urufu_Shinjiro
01-09-2008, 09:36 AM
I can assure you it IS NOT the saitek, if it is properly centered in the game controlers screen then it is something else. Don't go by the visual indication of the rudder as most planes in the game are "pre-trimmed". Are you sure it's not just the torque effects?

rnzoli
01-09-2008, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by dalexopoulos:
If it is so good (as many people say) why isn't Microsoft selling it anymore? The company policy prohibits them to sell something of outstanding quality at a reasonable price.

Moreover, company policy also prohibits them to allow the technology to be transferred to other companies, interested in continued manufacturing. They don't want to be beaten by a competitor, selling a high quality product for a reasonable price http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mmitch10
01-09-2008, 09:51 AM
I have exactly the same problem with my Saitek. Occasionally when I start a mission the twist stick is sending signals as though it is turned fully to the left. A couple of twists left and right always clears the problem.

When I go into the game controllers screen it sometimes indicates that the rudder twist is full left when I am not touching the stick.

It's annoying, but I like everything else about the stick so I've just got used, at the start of each mission, to giving a couple of twists each way before taking off.

triad773
01-09-2008, 09:56 AM
I have a Saitek Evo Force. Never particularly cared for twisty sticks but mine seemed OK - once I got a pair of rudder pedals.

I like the shudder I get near stall speed. I would hope that MS goes back to making those sticks- it'd be nice to have one but I myself have an issue with equipment that has no warranty and may be difficult to replace.

Just my ,02 cents

Cheers

Triad

Crash_Moses
01-09-2008, 10:37 AM
Try centering your trim before takeoff. Can't remember the default keys off the top of my head but I know the trim isn't centered as soon as you start the game.

S!

dalexopoulos
01-09-2008, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
Are you sure it's not just the torque effects?

Its not that, it happens in the easy level...

Ok, thanks everyone for the replies!

LT.INSTG8R
01-09-2008, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dalexopoulos:
If it is so good (as many people say) why isn't Microsoft selling it anymore? The company policy prohibits them to sell something of outstanding quality at a reasonable price.

Moreover, company policy also prohibits them to allow the technology to be transferred to other companies, interested in continued manufacturing. They don't want to be beaten by a competitor, selling a high quality product for a reasonable price http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually rnzoli they got caught using unlicensed tech. They had been using I-Force v1.0 without permission(I do get tired of explaining to racers with their MS wheels why no modern game works right with it)
So rather than admit it they just made all their FFB products just disappear
Sad part is Saitek suffered because of this as well because at the time they had been PAYING MS licence to use the tech as well.

Immersion basically own FFB so

SeaFireLIV
01-09-2008, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by LT.INSTG8R:


Actually rnzoli they got caught using unlicensed tech. They had been using I-Force v1.0 without permission(I do get tired of explaining to racers with their MS wheels why no modern game works right with it)
So rather than admit it they just made all their FFB products just disappear
Sad part is Saitek suffered because of this as well because at the time they had been PAYING MS licence to use the tech as well.

Immersion basically own FFB so

Really? I always wondered wondered why MS stopped selling such an obviously successful product. Even today, it gets more praises than any other stick, yet they discontinued? disregarding all the conspiracry theories, your sounds the most plausible.

Still, just `forgetting` the product is a rather stupid way of doing things. Admit the mistake, pay your dues (they`re rich enough) and profit from renewed sales of excellent good quality Sidewinde 2 FF sticks!

CloCloZ
01-09-2008, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by dalexopoulos:
I have a problem with my Saitek Evo Force stick in IL2 1946 (the stick works fine in FXS). When I start a single player mission, in easy mode, with the B-239, the plane is on a slight right turn and the little ball in the yaw indicator is a little to the left. It also happens with other planes but it is not as pronounced as in the B-239. It is as if the rudder is centered a little to the right... In the Hardware set-up menu the stick semms to be calibrated, but when I start the flight, it looks as if the rudder is not centered.
Has any of you guys noticed anything similar?
Could it be a Vista issue? Could it be something with the joystick settings?
Thanks

I use the same stick in IL-2 1946, since some months.
I didn't noticed that before, but now playing a B-239 mission I found the same behaviour (even just after a pre-flight rudder calibration from joystick control panel).
Then using external views I can SEE the rudder is full right and that it returns there even when fully turned to left and released!
Only way I've found to move it permanently near the center is by using (or messing ...) trim controls.
Yes, B-239 could be "pre-trimmed" but ... so much? And, anyway, it doesn't flight straight but really turns to right ...

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3029/b2392ul9.jpg

I usually fly the Tempest and I haven't such a problem with it.
I visually checked some other plane rudders at mission start and I found a similar behaviour maybe only with Ki-84-Ia, but the right-hand side miscentering I noticed is really very small.
BF109K, FW190 D9, Spit Mk.IX and P-51-NA are all perfect for me.

I've read the Urufu_Shinjiro advice not to rely on visual depiction, but in this case it seemed to be a connection between depiction and flight behaviour ... or almost so!

In fact ...
it seems to me that even if the bad position is shown at every time in B-239, not at every flight that fault has an effect on plane trim: sometimes it happens that even when the rudder is shown as miscentered, nevertheless the plane flight straight!

So, it seems to me it could be a case of bad modelling/depicting in B-239 (and maybe in some other planes).
If you can succesfully calibrate the joy with its control panel then I don't think it's Saitek's fault, at least not fully.

But there are two annoying thing I've found so far with Evo Force:
1) sometimes IL-2 1946 doesn't starts Force Feedback, even if set to to that.
2) an occasional automatic and unwanted flap extension at the beginning of the flight with the Tempest (a plane without automatic flaps, AFAIK). In this case, sometimes manually raising flaps is enough, some other times it's necessary to stop the mission, exit IL-2 and restart the game (otherwise flaps keeps extending by themselves!). Luckily, this trouble happens just one time out of many dozens of flights.

Just wondering now about similarities between the randomness of the flaps bug and the randomness of B-239 flight behaviour ...

<span class="ev_code_RED">[EDITED: I've just seen that SBD shown the same right-turned rudder, as much as in B-239 case, and nonetheless the plane flies straight. So I think Urufu_Shinjiro is fully right, it's just an intentional and correct pretrimming. It remains the fact that in the most cases B-239 doesn't fly correctly so trimmed.]</span>

mmitch10
01-09-2008, 02:47 PM
Hmm, it's not unknown to Saitek.

http://www.saitekforum.com/showthread.php?t=7714

Saitek support seem to suggest exchanging the stick, someone called Twod suggests a solution that involves taking the stick apart and playing with the insides. I'll give that a go this weekend and let you know how I get on.

LT.INSTG8R
01-09-2008, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LT.INSTG8R:


Actually rnzoli they got caught using unlicensed tech. They had been using I-Force v1.0 without permission(I do get tired of explaining to racers with their MS wheels why no modern game works right with it)
So rather than admit it they just made all their FFB products just disappear
Sad part is Saitek suffered because of this as well because at the time they had been PAYING MS licence to use the tech as well.

Immersion basically own FFB so

Really? I always wondered wondered why MS stopped selling such an obviously successful product. Even today, it gets more praises than any other stick, yet they discontinued? disregarding all the conspiracry theories, your sounds the most plausible.

Still, just `forgetting` the product is a rather stupid way of doing things. Admit the mistake, pay your dues (they`re rich enough) and profit from renewed sales of excellent good quality Sidewinde 2 FF sticks! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yep it was a terrible shame. There were some threads over on the Saitek forum after it all went down.Some tech savvy folks got out their soldering irons only to find out that one quick solder turned there Saitek wheels into MS wheels. Question answered...(they lost driver support too)

I have been SO close to pressing the button over at gogamer to get me one of these "wondersticks"(I cant drive without FFB but with IL-2 I have never tried it) I have an X-52 that I am far too comfortable with and I KNOW if I went FFB I would be hooked for life and have to start my control profile from scratch again.

SeaFireLIV
01-09-2008, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by LT.INSTG8R:


I have been SO close to pressing the button over at gogamer to get me one of these "wondersticks"(I cant drive without FFB but with IL-2 I have never tried it) I have an X-52 that I am far too comfortable with and I KNOW if I went FFB I would be hooked for life and have to start my control profile from scratch again.


I have just lost my Sidewinder FF2 stick and since then i`ve had to almost relearn flying in IL2 all over again. That`s how good it is and how BAD it is. My woes are in the tech forum. It`s REALLY hard adapting after MSFF2. You are right. The MSFF stick was so good that I`m beginning to wonder if I should have had it at all. It would`ve been a lot less harder had I learned to work with a standard stick.

dalexopoulos
01-10-2008, 02:02 AM
I'm not sure though that the rudder issue is purely a Saitek problem. As I said, in FSX there is no problem (I fly the C172). So, maybe, the problem is in the way IL2 "communicates" with the stick in Vista environment ??
Is it something that Maddox could fix? Could the problem be addressed by an IL2 patch?

rnzoli
01-10-2008, 02:42 AM
As I said, in FSX there is no problem (I fly the C172). With auto-coordination on of off? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (I mean the auto-coordination of the rudder in turns and banks.)
In Il-2, there is no auto-coordination between the control surfaces to smoothen the flight experience, hence the need to trimming + use of rudder quite often.
Also, the simulated aircraft in IL-2 have much higher power and more pronounced torque effects.

I would say if your rudder is completely centered in the IL-2 HW setup page (red/green box), then it's the flight model, not your stick.

rnzoli
01-10-2008, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by LT.INSTG8R:
Actually rnzoli they got caught using unlicensed tech. They had been using I-Force v1.0 without permission[...]

Immersion basically own FFB so

Yes, I have heard about the licence issue, I was just joking of course.

On the other hand, you'r cutting off your last sentence. So.....what?

Is Immersion Corp. (http://www.immersion.com) to blame for the apparently sorry state of the FFB joystick product lines? Are they keeping the patent and licence fees too high that prevents the economic manufacturing of FFB units?
Are there other alternatives for FFB, e.g., other protocols/technologies? Or volunteer DIY develepments like this? (http://www.kliese.wattle.id.au:81/%7Erussell/forcefeedback/)

Just asking. Maybe better to throw the answer into the Sim pit builder's thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

dalexopoulos
01-10-2008, 03:46 AM
In FSX I fly full realistic, in IL2 (since I just started) I started with the easy level and run into this rudder issue.
In the Hardware setup screen, the green/red boxes are not 100% centered, the red is slightly to the right, but only a fraction. Couold this be the reason? But still, this is not aircraft-specific, yet the effect is very different accross various types (the B-239 being the one most affected, the P-38 the least).
I guess there is not much I can do. With a little trimming the Bf109 flies just fine. If I get much more sophisticated then I guess I can buy a better stick...

Hkuusela
01-10-2008, 04:09 AM
I'm not sure if this is it, but if you are talking about the single missions that start in the air, the engine for some reason is at idle in the beginning regardless of the position of your throttle. If you have your throttle at full, your engine will automatically go from idle to full throttle in a couple of seconds after the beginning of the mission, which causes torque and could be reason for this fenomenon.

dalexopoulos
01-10-2008, 04:27 AM
Its' not that. In easy mode there is no torque effect, plus, it happens continously...

rnzoli
01-10-2008, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by dalexopoulos:
Its' not that. In easy mode there is no torque effect, plus, it happens continously...
You know, I am not so sure about that.
I don't fly on easy mode myself, but I came across some comments earlier that the new torque effects, which were implemented 2 (?) years ago in 4.x versions of IL-2, are not completely disabled.

Your observation on B-239 and the P-38 attests to this also, because I think exactly the B-239 has that vicious torque roll, which always happens to me when throttling up a little before touch down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

How about trying your flight with full switch mode? If you were flying FSX that way, it shouldn't be such big problem anyway, and you could try to see if there is any difference.

CloCloZ
01-10-2008, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by dalexopoulos:
Its' not that. In easy mode there is no torque effect, plus, it happens continously...

Did you try with the Tempest?
Whereas with B-239 I have bad right turning (even not at every time!), Hawker Tempest (and others) works perfectly for me (and no visual sign of rudder pre-trimming, too: rudder is perfectly centered).

If you have the same problem also with Tempest, then your Evo Force behaves in a definitely different way than mine.

dalexopoulos
01-10-2008, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by CloCloZ:

Whereas with B-239 I have bad right turning (even not at every time)

You mean there are times the B-239 is ok and times it turns? So, sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't? Do you have Vista ?

I'll check in realistic mode and se if I get the same...

CloCloZ
01-10-2008, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by dalexopoulos:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CloCloZ:

Whereas with B-239 I have bad right turning (even not at every time)

You mean there are times the B-239 is ok and times it turns? So, sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't? Do you have Vista ?

I'll check in realistic mode and se if I get the same... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've just checked again my B-239, reflying many times the same quick mission (Smolensk map, 1000m, clear weather), after stick calibration: every time B-239 immediately and markedly turns right BUT the effect is much less strong with throttle up (to 110%). It seems as the plane is trimmed right for high speeds. In fact, starting with throttle at 110% from the very beginning it starts turning right just a little bit.

Yesterday I noticed that sometimes the plane seemed to be unaffected by "bad turning" but now it's not clear to me if it was me throttling at once at 110% (I'm used to do this on instinct at mission starting in flight) or an occasional "good " behaviour.
Please note: as I previously wrote, I've really found two cases of occasional behaviour with the Evo Force, even not related to rudder and trimming.

Anyway, regarding B-239 I didn't found any difference between "easy" and "difficult" settings: it usually starts turning right with both settings. So "easy" is preferable in these tests because there is no torque component.

And no, I haven't Vista, I have XP Pro SP2.

My strong advice: try Tempest, I know it well enough and it surely flies straight and has no pre-trimming.
If your Tempest flies well, too, I think that your Evo Force is good, if not your stick could be defective.
Remember to calibrate the stick before starting IL-2 1946: on control panel my stick usually shows just a little bit right displacement of the rudder, it's enough to turn it a couple of time full left and then full right to re-center it perfectly.

dalexopoulos
01-10-2008, 07:03 AM
If your Tempest flies well, too, I think that your Evo Force is good, if not your stick could be defective.


That's the dodgy part: The stick cannot be defective because in FSX its fine! I can only guess its a IL2 vs Vista thing?
I'll try the Tempest tonight and get back.
Tks

CloCloZ
01-10-2008, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by dalexopoulos:
That's the dodgy part: The stick cannot be defective because in FSX its fine! I can only guess its a IL2 vs Vista thing?


Or maybe a IL-2 vs Saitek Evo Force, since on XP I've found some occasional (and luckily rare) strange behaviour even with the Tempest ("automatic" flaps extension).
All in all, since now I'm quite happy with the Evo in IL-2, my biggest complaint is that it doesn't seem really much accurate (but, after all, is a relatively cheap piece of hardware ...).

LT.INSTG8R
01-10-2008, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LT.INSTG8R:
Actually rnzoli they got caught using unlicensed tech. They had been using I-Force v1.0 without permission[...]

Immersion basically own FFB so

Yes, I have heard about the licence issue, I was just joking of course.

On the other hand, you'r cutting off your last sentence. So.....what?

Is Immersion Corp. (http://www.immersion.com) to blame for the apparently sorry state of the FFB joystick product lines? Are they keeping the patent and licence fees too high that prevents the economic manufacturing of FFB units?
Are there other alternatives for FFB, e.g., other protocols/technologies? Or volunteer DIY develepments like this? (http://www.kliese.wattle.id.au:81/%7Erussell/forcefeedback/)

Just asking. Maybe better to throw the answer into the Sim pit builder's thread http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes thats pretty much it. Immersion has the keys to the kingdom and they hold them pretty tight. All you have to do is look at the battle Sony fought with them to get the rumble back in their controllers on the PS3.
I think because there is only a few FFB sticks out there isnt alot of reason for them to keep them up like Racing Wheels(which seems to be their bread and butter)
I couldnt race without my G25 and its fantastic FFB

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/461/newplayseat004jn9.th.jpg (http://img443.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newplayseat004jn9.jpg)

GHost_Sqd
01-03-2009, 06:32 PM
Well I have being searching the forums for the this problem. I'm running 1946 on a win 2000 box and I have to deflect my saitek Pro rudders to the far right to compensate for what I believe is torque affect, (hopefully).
I also run FlamingCliffs on the same box and the rudders are perfect with flaming cliffs so I can only suggest that it's the 1946 game. Also was running resently, up to today, a copy of AEP that with full realism had the normal torque effect, so further proving that 1946 torque effect is greater and it's not the stick. Havent tested on easy mode though. Interesting though it seems to be only saitek that experiencing this problem.

dragonfly1971
01-05-2009, 02:44 PM
Ive had the same stick as yours for 3 years m8.
When i start il2 and it loads up i twist the stick fully left and right and move the column around 360 degrees .
i do this everytime as a habit ,because i had the same problem.
I find after ive done this the stick is fine,just one of those things m8.