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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:19 PM
I love the bf-109s I have flown all the variants and I agree the FMs and DMs need to be looked at. I assume Oleg knows and is fixing it. Online and Off.

I have read many accounts both Russian and German on the early airwar in the East, (currently reading black cross Red Star) and it is very interesting.

Anyway, I fly the early variants expecting to have a walkover and get a feeling of superiority the Germans felt going into combat in the first months of Barbarossa. I have to admit, I don't feel any superiority at all. When going against I-16s one mistake and your toast due to the fragility of the 109. The 109s including the Fs are only slightly faster than the I-16 and don't accelerate well at all. Bleed energy easily,Overheat way too fast. I have flown the I-16s and Its really easy to kill 109s. The VVS has a great advantage in the later war as was historical, but in the early war, they should be getting mauled. When flying offline, I can have all Aces flying 109s vs Rookie I-16s and still lose. If I reverse the scenario, the Russians kill every 109 without loss.

I admit I don't have much experience playing online with the early aircraft of both sides, It seems most DF servers focus on late variants of the 109s which are clearly inferior to VVS aircraft. I expect that the messerschmitt would fare better though.

I still love this Sim though!!!

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Saluti!
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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:19 PM
I love the bf-109s I have flown all the variants and I agree the FMs and DMs need to be looked at. I assume Oleg knows and is fixing it. Online and Off.

I have read many accounts both Russian and German on the early airwar in the East, (currently reading black cross Red Star) and it is very interesting.

Anyway, I fly the early variants expecting to have a walkover and get a feeling of superiority the Germans felt going into combat in the first months of Barbarossa. I have to admit, I don't feel any superiority at all. When going against I-16s one mistake and your toast due to the fragility of the 109. The 109s including the Fs are only slightly faster than the I-16 and don't accelerate well at all. Bleed energy easily,Overheat way too fast. I have flown the I-16s and Its really easy to kill 109s. The VVS has a great advantage in the later war as was historical, but in the early war, they should be getting mauled. When flying offline, I can have all Aces flying 109s vs Rookie I-16s and still lose. If I reverse the scenario, the Russians kill every 109 without loss.

I admit I don't have much experience playing online with the early aircraft of both sides, It seems most DF servers focus on late variants of the 109s which are clearly inferior to VVS aircraft. I expect that the messerschmitt would fare better though.

I still love this Sim though!!!

http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/insignia/italy/incocca-tende-scaglia.jpg
Saluti!
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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:28 PM
Offline, just stay climbing at ~250kph and the I-16's will never catch you /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
But the AI do not know how to use the 109, and starts turning with it, that's why they die so much.
And the Auto prop pitch is buggy, but apart that and the overheating and cabl├že sensitivity the early 109's rock /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:35 PM
Honestly, I didn't know there was a problem with Auto Prop pitch. I always leave it in auto mode. I overrev the engine when I attempt manual. Well, another bug to fix......

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:52 PM
Well, it's true that early 109s should have a wider edge in speed and climb over technologically inferior planes as the Polikarpov fighters. But AI combat ratings are not a good test: AI simply does not behaves well with BnZ fighters as 109s. FB AI would improve a lot just by implementing two fighter IA models, one for slow turning fighters (as P.11, I-153, I-16, G.50, B-239...) and the other for Boom n' Zoom tactics, suitable for the 109, La, 262, P-47...

This simple feature would enhance the realism and gameplay experience a lot.

- Dux Corvan -



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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 05:07 PM
In il2 109s on an ace setting did a very good job of booming...extending.. climbing etc. Seems differnt this go around.

Early 109s in FB are faster than any early VVS plane. You cant loose all your energy and expect to rocket away from danger. Saddeling up on someones six is not necessarily the best way to get kills in the 109s. Slashing attacks.. hit and run...hit and climb, these are better methods.

Dont be fooled though the early 109s are some of the best turners, especially the F and early G.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 05:12 PM
Mike,

Here is a very handy program that will allow you to see, at a glance, the relative performance capabilities of the flyable planes in IL2/FB.

http://www.barans.spb.ru/files/ilc_v21.zip

As far as I know the data is accurate. If you are not able to reach the performance values recorded in the program IL2compare then it may be a problem on your end. You may not have your plane configured for optimum performance, or there could be a hardware or joystick problem.

IL2compare will show how the early model 109s stack up against the early Allied planes.

Looking at the 109E4 vs I-16 matchup using the IL2compare program it is easy to see that the 109 will have a speed advantage at all altitudes.

Looking closer it is clear that max climb is not such a clear advantage. The I-16 actually holds an advantage in climb at the lower altitudes.

Turn performance is a very interesting area of combat performance that IL2comapare clarifies. The 109E4 vs I-16 matchup shows that with full flaps at very slow speeds the two planes have very close turn rates, but as soon as speed goes above the stall the I-16 turns with increasing advantage.

Armed with this information the early 109 pilot should see that he can dictate the fight and use hit and run tactics. The 109 pilot can alway run from the fight. Diving may not be a good idea and climbing is also not advisable. The level run with radiator closed at 110% throttle for a few minutes after the overheat warning light comes on and then radiator set to auto at 100% throttle should allow the 109 to escape the I-16 as long as the 109 pilot did not allow the I-16 an energy advantage. If the 109 pilot does allow the I-16 an energy advantage then the 109 pilot will be in trouble. A full flaps stalling turn fight may offer advantage to keep the I-16 from saddling up but it is much better, if possible, to simply make sure the I-16 pilot does not ever get an energy advantage.

As for the accuracy to which IL2/FB has modeled the early 109 vs I-16 fights you can look here:

http://oldsite.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=004181;p=

And here:

http://www.airforce.users.ru/lend-lease/english/articles/golodnikov/part1.htm

One other useful tactic besides the hit and run is a tactic called sustained turn techniques. They work in IL2/FB.

Sustained turn techniques are explained in the book titled "Fighter Combat" by Robert Shaw

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0870210599/qid=1066838629/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-1134244-3799331

Here is an example of sustained turn techiques:

http://home1.gte.net/res0l0yx/sustained%20turn%20technique.htm

One other useful energy tactic is the rolling scissors.
The rolling scissors is also explained in detail in Robert Shaws book.
The rolling scissors is more difficult to use in IL2/FB than are sustained turn techniques; in my opinion.



JG14_Josf

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 05:14 PM
Have you tried playing around with the AI levels in the config .ini file ? I would think this would help some but have heard many times about the FB AI not using energy well.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 06:07 PM
I was goofing around the other night in quick mission and tried the F4 against an ace I-16 t.24. I started at 3000 meters and avoided the head-on and went into a left spiral climb, but keeping the speed up. The Rata couldn't follow and slowly I managed to gain in the circle, and he went from my 7 oclock to my 11, then I pulled hard and made a diving pass and scored some hits. Then went back up into the climb and repeated. I hadn't tried this so strictly in a while, but it worked so easily I was fairly surprised. I scored hits maybe on 2 of 3 attacks, then FB crashed...guess the red AI pulled in some favors...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So 1st rule is to keep the fight up at 3KM or so, climb and extend away. The hard part is converting it into a gun solution. That was what set the Experten apart. It is easy for a noob in a faster better climbing plane to stay away from an ace I-16, it's getting the rounds on the target that's hard as you will most likely just get a high-speed diving snap-shot. It even says it in the Il-2 manual, gunnery and marksmanship is 90% of what it takes to really succeed. To practice I'd suggest just flying against rookie I-16 with no ammo, but always making the attack from above and at high speed. Do this until you can always hit him, then in a combat situation like in above you can succeed.

7./JG26_HarryM

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 06:38 PM
thanks for the reply guys. I still think this is a great sim. I just wish it were perfect. LOL!

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 06:58 PM
Combine AI settings with strong initial altitude advantage for LW helps, some. Here I am asumming we are using FMB. btw the LW pilots usually flew higher than VVS pilots early in the WAR. VVS pilots were ordered to fly low, to boost ground troop morale. I don't think it was very morally boosting to see their fighters get bounced from above. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

mike_espo::
-- I fly the early variants expecting to have a walkover and get a feeling of
-- superiority the Germans felt going into combat in the first months of Barbarossa.

-- I have to admit, I don't feel any superiority at all.

Onwhiners have a better time cos they can do better in high energy fighters as opposed to turn fighters, like the AI in FB. Also, sooner or later you learn that Luftwaffe supremacy was never related to pop dogfight fighter performance, so you won't find Happiness looking at FM. I have heard that CEM was always porked in FB, always will be. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Luftwaffe supremacy lay in pilot tactics and training. The modern computer/internet FB simmer is probably more an embarassment to the professional Luftwaffe pilots more than anything Oleg can do in FM.


-- When flying offwhine, I can have all Aces flying 109s vs
-- Rookie I-16s and still lose. If I reverse the scenario,
-- the Russians kill every 109 without loss.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif This is a Good Sign cos its rare when a dogfight whiner admits the biggest problem in Oleg's FB is AI combat programming and not FM. I was looking for a definition of FB Triplane Ace, and I don't think I can use mike cos of his/her insight into AI. I will keep looking.

3 wings and a slider

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 07:14 PM
It is very hard to bring down fighters like I-16 or I-153.. but once your aiming gets better from quick B&Z_passes, it will actually become quite easy.. it does nead a lot of patience and good marksmanship..

Practise simply makes champpion.. better use F-2 to work on your aim if you are flying against I-16 or Chaikkas /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



____________________________________



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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 07:17 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- Onwhiners have a better time cos they can do better
- in high energy fighters as opposed to turn fighters,
- like the AI in FB. Also, sooner or later you learn
- that Luftwaffe supremacy was never related to pop
- dogfight fighter performance, so you won't find
- Happiness looking at FM.


And you base your findings on? Emils and Franz outturned everything on russian front except I-153. Also Emil could not be outclimbed with a russian fighter until 1943, and only if the pilot was lucky enough to get an working machine. F and G early models could not be outclimbed until '44, and then only by La5FN/7 in working worder. Yak3/9U were only capable to climb with them. First russian plane that could climb with Emil(!) was La5/5F but had troubles with overheating all the time. It was restricted to one minute at max setting (1630hp). But the engine was pushed forward to 1850hp (2min max at this setting) in La5FN/7. Of course the reliability was nonexistent. All La7 performed differently, all climb tests I saw offer different values for climb rate and max speed by wide margins. Though La7 was designed for a 24m/s it had this climb rate only at the end of war. Maneuvrability of russian planes at high speeds was miserable, for early Yaks and Laggs the dive limit is only 550kmh IAS!!! compare this with 750kmh for Emil.

Of course none of this are to be found in FB. La7 30m/s climb rate value cannot be from this world. Also the variant with 2 cannons has a 360 deg turn time of 15 sec sustained(!!!). Yak3 turns in 16 sec instead of 19 sec. And so on and so.

And don't even start me on how porked Bf-109 FM is.

Next time Luthor bring facts not your ignorant bias.


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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 07:23 PM
Hukebein_FW::
-- Next time Luthor bring facts not your ignorant bias.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


All I said was German pilot training and tactics is more important than Fb109. I must have touched a Nerve.

Hey, I'm a Doctor.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 07:30 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- Hukebein_FW::
--- Next time Luthor bring facts not your ignorant bias.
-
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
-
- All I said was German pilot training and tactics is
- more important than Fb109. I must have touched a
- Nerve.
-
- Hey, I'm a Doctor.


Bf-109 was a vastly superior machine. You should not forget the sacrifices of the russian pilots.


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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 10:57 PM
Vipez- wrote:
- It is very hard to bring down fighters like I-16 or
- I-153..

It is mostly unnecessary to bring down fighers like I-16 or I-153. They can be ignored, since they are slow. I have never seen the Polikarpovs doing a good work of protecting bombers.

If one ends up in dogfight with either one of these, one is in trouble. If there is any height left, dive with full throttle and rad closed, use rudder to deviate a little to avoid the lasers. Once 1+km away, grow distance, cool the engine, etc (return home or try again against the stealth tanks).

In FR games, if the enemy has another chance of a figher and you see someone flying these slow crates, you can assume that either he is Very good or Very lame. Or drunk, as in my case.


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prkl

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 03:59 PM
Anybody notice the Emils are not quite as fast as they used to be?? Now, down low, they barely get over the 400Kph indicated mark. They used to get up in the 450Kph range at low Russian front altitudes. Is the speed more accurate now??

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 04:24 PM
I love to fly the early Bf-109's. They're fun and pretty challenging.

Two points:

The AI flight models are simplified to enable FB to run on the kind of pc's ordinary money can buy. So there's a difference between the behaviour of AI VVS/LW planes and human piloted planes.

The early German successes in the war are not necessarily testaments of superiour equipment. Some here will claim (pretty soon /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ) that pilot kills shows that Bf-109's were technically superiour to anything the Soviets could get airborne. That's not a logical argument. It's like saying the German won in France 1940, and advanced deep into the Soviet Union in 1941/42, because their armour was better. It's utter rubbish.

The main reason for German successes where pilot training, experience, flexibility and doctrine. In the air as on the ground.

cheers/slush

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 05:08 PM
Hi,

Mike:

Are you running with a patched FB or not? The I-16s were very difficult to kill in the original release and I had plenty of flights where I came back with no ammo and no kills against I-16s.

In the later patches, they are quite a lot easier to down but I don't think that their FM has been changed too much.

Regards,
Norris

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 08:02 PM
I dont see what all the argument is about. I am not that great a pilot, and I can drop I16s in my 109 E7 all the time. Just use boom and zoom, don't get into a turning battle.

Just my $0.02

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 08:10 PM
Exactly! German aircraft were designed for B&Z. Turning doesn't work. A country designs plane's around specifications. In fact, Germany's specifications were for a great Boom and Zoom fighter, and they got it. YOU MUST B&Z otherwise you will die dismally every time.

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