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View Full Version : Ivan, plz make sure Oleg see this. . .



EURO_Bruno
06-12-2005, 01:05 PM
Hi ya fella's, I don't want to make this a ***** session but there are some things that must be said. I will only bring up one (there aren't really that many).

Here goes. . .when is your design team EVER going to get a grip on the hitting power of the 50 caliber machine gun??? Presently, shooting at enemy aircraft with 50 caliber weapons is like shooting tennis balls. They carry very little knock down capability and I can't believe for one minute that your design team can't see this flaw.

I have to think that all members of your design team have seen gun camera footage of the 50 cal in action and all of it lethal destructive power. If they haven't. . .I might recommend they do so.

Are you ever going to address this issue and why is it so difficult for you to get an accurate representation of the 50 cal in this sim??? Hopefully you will for the next patch (4.01).

Please, please, PLEASE do the right thing and get it right.

Your attention in this matter is greatly appreciated and needed

~S~

EURO_Bruno

73GIAP_Milan
06-12-2005, 01:12 PM
...must refuse to bite...

half an hour ago i smoked a P-39 with a P-39 in 1 single 2 second burst, the 1st burst i fired at it and also took out a KI-84 with a ripped off wing with 3 secs of fire in a P-51...

the .50's are fine

can't it be that thou is trolling/fishing the slightest bit? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

JG54_Arnie
06-12-2005, 01:12 PM
How much did you test? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Try this:
Create a mission the FMB, set yourself in a P-51 or P-40 right behind a flight of four planes, save this mission so you can always get back to it and change the planes. Shoot at zero's, 109's, 190's, Me110's and P-39s and some others if you like, now what do you see? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

OD_79
06-12-2005, 01:18 PM
Imust admit I blew up an F4U with just .50's once, in a Spit MkIXe, and it was a dead short burst...must have hit something very explosive!!! That went up with a BIG BANG! It was a completely unhurt aircraft as well! Just a lucky shot I suppose!
They do seem a bit weak to be honest.

OD.

AerialTarget
06-12-2005, 01:45 PM
The fifties are actually too powerful; each bullet does way too much damage. On the other hand, it's much, much harder to hit things with (both before and after the disperson switch) than with the real thing for several reasons. The first is the dispersion - first it was too wide, now it is too narrow. The second reason is that the guns banks in the game are synchronized, where in real life they were not. Therefore in real life there was a stream of lead that could not be easily flown through without being hit by at least one bullet, not the "packets" of bullets at regular intervals that can be flown between in the game.

Monson74
06-12-2005, 01:55 PM
Yup - it would be great if they weren't synchronized but firing one at the time.

NorrisMcWhirter
06-12-2005, 02:13 PM
How many times....?

Gun camera footage will hardly be representative of all action taking place. If it's used for newsreels/training purposes etc then only the successful engagements are likely to be shown.

As the others have said, you don't have to see a mushroom cloud when taking down planes. .50s are more than effective enough, even at long ranges of 600m, in putting enemy aircraft out of the fight. I would admit that they seem to have a perfomance 'flat spot' around 300m but much less than this (and much more) and they are very effective indeed for pk's, control surface takeouts, engine destruction and flame ups. Massive structural failure, apart from when firing at Zeros, is rare.

Ta,
Norris

Lixma
06-12-2005, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by EURO_Bruno:I have to think that all members of your design team have seen gun camera footage of the 50 cal in action and all of it lethal destructive power. If they haven't. . .I might recommend they do so.

And how many of hours of gun-cam footage have you seen where the pass was ineffective ? None i'll bet.

You're only ever going to see gun-cam footage when there's something getting blown up. And the planes you see getting shot at almost never bother manouvering out of harm's way either.

danjama
06-12-2005, 02:26 PM
I am torn on this subject but after extreme testing in QMB against all planes and in many planes with .50s, i have concluded that they are not effective in many situations. By recording tracks and going into them from the enemy planes view, any .50 bullets to strike a he111 from my P40 only scratched the paint work, never mind blow an engine. P40 vs just a C47 again no real damage, and in a C47 wings usually go bye byes but not with 50 cals. I ran out of ammo and never got the thing down. And i assure u all that most bullets hit. I love the sim, i think it is very accurate, my only disapointment is with the .50 cals. Other than that the team at 1C have done a great job. Get this sorted for 4.01 i say then all will be happy.

MEGILE
06-12-2005, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
The fifties are actually too powerful; each bullet does way too much damage. On the other hand, it's much, much harder to hit things with (both before and after the disperson switch) than with the real thing for several reasons. The first is the dispersion - first it was too wide, now it is too narrow. The second reason is that the guns banks in the game are synchronized, where in real life they were not. Therefore in real life there was a stream of lead that could not be easily flown through without being hit by at least one bullet, not the "packets" of bullets at regular intervals that can be flown between in the game.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Archangel2980
06-12-2005, 04:18 PM
I'm up and down about the .50 cals, sometimes it's like I'm shooting a airsoft gun other times they're pretty **** affective.

WarWolfe_1
06-12-2005, 04:20 PM
It must be your aim....I flame if not outright blowup Zekes with one second burst. The 190, anything later than A-5, are a tuffer but they go down with a 2 second burst 3 to 4 times.

VF-29_Sandman
06-12-2005, 06:13 PM
firing any weapon at convergance range will make it extremely powerful. at what range is convergance set and how far are u shooting at target? remember the range is in meters, not feet. typically, the fusalage will absorb more damage than wings. the wings or cockpit should be ur primary targets.

in the case of the corsair, hitting the rear fuel tank at close range will take it out in a heartbeat.

those that have been testing the 50's in 4.0; in earlier patches, best range could be 175-225 meters. did the best range go up or stay the same?

PBNA-Boosher
06-12-2005, 06:34 PM
Do yourself a favor and learn how to shoot. There's nothing wrong with the .50 cals.

Saunders1953
06-12-2005, 06:36 PM
Troll. Registered today, 2 posts. More polite than most, though.

Lixma
06-12-2005, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Saunders1953:
Troll. Registered today, 2 posts. More polite than most, though.

LOL....Bruno's been flying a lot longer than most here.

While i disagree with him on the gun-cam validity there are a few dedicated P-51/47 flyers who are experiencing a loss of gun effectiveness. Telling them to 'learn how to shoot' is not a serious reply. They can shoot straight enough as it is.

Now, maybe the new FM is upsetting their aim but their gunstats say otherwise.

arcadeace
06-12-2005, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
P40 vs just a C47 again no real damage, and in a C47 wings usually go bye byes but not with 50 cals. I ran out of ammo and never got the thing down. And i assure u all that most bullets hit. I love the sim, i think it is very accurate, my only disapointment is with the .50 cals. Other than that the team at 1C have done a great job. Get this sorted for 4.01 i say then all will be happy.

I just tried in a P-40 and at about 250 meters blew the right engine off. This was the third time in a row I took one down with just a couple of well placed short bursts.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y194/Steevo37/my%20album/grab0000.jpg

Grey_Mouser67
06-12-2005, 07:29 PM
I have found the .50's to be very good in general. There are times I wonder if the penatrating power is there...like dead astern. I expect all weapons to be less effective, but I always felt that the .50 was the best penatrater...even better than 20mm because the cannon has explosive head.

What I have seen is the DM of the Fw toughened up substantially. I used to be able to light them on fire fairly easily...now they rarely light up but when they do...they explode too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

No, since I've been flying QMB, I've been getting more kills per sortie than before and I haven't flown online enough yet to say about that....although the AI has a peculiar habit of dying with what seems to be superficial hits. Now the P-51B against Fw's...i have to work for 2 or 3 kills and I used to do better than that, hence my opinion on Fw damage model.

The fw is one of my favorite rides, but I do like parity amongst aircraft and would like to see the 151/20's toned down just a wee little bit and the DM of the Fw toned down a wee little bit too...haven't done any testing, but I've heard the fw has slowed a bit...if that is true it would be good to have it toned up a bit! But in the end, it is up to Oleg....and I doubt based on the initial post that this thread will make it to Oleg...best contact him via e-mail or post in the bug reporting room

p1ngu666
06-12-2005, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
I have found the .50's to be very good in general. There are times I wonder if the penatrating power is there...like dead astern. I expect all weapons to be less effective, but I always felt that the .50 was the best penatrater...even better than 20mm because the cannon has explosive head.

What I have seen is the DM of the Fw toughened up substantially. I used to be able to light them on fire fairly easily...now they rarely light up but when they do...they explode too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

No, since I've been flying QMB, I've been getting more kills per sortie than before and I haven't flown online enough yet to say about that....although the AI has a peculiar habit of dying with what seems to be superficial hits. Now the P-51B against Fw's...i have to work for 2 or 3 kills and I used to do better than that, hence my opinion on Fw damage model.

The fw is one of my favorite rides, but I do like parity amongst aircraft and would like to see the 151/20's toned down just a wee little bit and the DM of the Fw toned down a wee little bit too...haven't done any testing, but I've heard the fw has slowed a bit...if that is true it would be good to have it toned up a bit! But in the end, it is up to Oleg....and I doubt based on the initial post that this thread will make it to Oleg...best contact him via e-mail or post in the bug reporting room

cannon has ap rounds, apart from a few like mk108 iirec.

US navy said a single 20mm cannon was equal to 3.3 or 3 50cals

p51, p40 corsair f4f f6f etc should equal spit twin cannons, and stuff like la5 with the twin cannons.

guncams off tv u dont know what plane the footage is from, ive seen the same guncam footage on 3-4 shows about different aircraft atleast.

worst or best depending on how u look at it was guy talking about flak, showing some really good footage. of.... rocket artilery http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

50's need a more jumbled or atleast not packeted firepower

Saunders1953
06-12-2005, 08:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Saunders1953:
Troll. Registered today, 2 posts. More polite than most, though.


LOL....Bruno's been flying a lot longer than most here.

And here I was feeling good that I didn't bite.

EURO_Bruno
06-12-2005, 08:54 PM
Ty Lixma,

I may only have 2 previous posts but I have been flying Il2, FB, AEP, PF and all their inherent patches with EURO Squadron since it first came out.

I finally figured out that Oleg may just hear what I have to say and decided to draw some attention to this flaw. There's a first time for everything. . . .

I have posted this objection on one other forum so forgive me if anyone finds this redundant.

I have actually fired an M2 Browning (Mah deuce). I know what ONE single 50 caliber machine gun can do let alone six of them pointed in the same direction at a point of convergance. It should the collective effect of a buzz saw. It is a horrific weapon of war. I know. . . I've seen what it can do first hand.

The present model of the 50 cal in this sim is just. . . . .lacking. Watered down. I would just like to see it tweaked just a touch. Or the damage models of the Axis aircraft tweaked just a touch.

Something. . . .anything.

Thanks for listening.

~S~

EURO_Bruno

JG27_Stacko
06-13-2005, 12:53 AM
.50s are fine. Team, you are doing a great job with the weapon modelling.

I am sorry to the guy whp pays for the bandwith of this link - but here goes

http://www.pbase.com/isegrim/gun_pics

Red whiners wont be happy until their little .50s' hit like mk108s. the mk108s hit good, there new modelling (recoil) has reduced there effectiveness against fighters which (all will agree) is excellent, the 20mm is also good - after 12 months of it being $hithouse. The .50s are fine, please dont increase their DM. Certain people just need to learn to shoot straight.

JG54_Arnie
06-13-2005, 01:36 AM
The 50's are great. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif After some testing I did find the FW too tough though, structurally that is, it still loses controls and PK's happen, so its not unbeatable.
But thats the only plane I had trouble damaging really hard, the rest all go down fast on convergence. Like so many other people here said already. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Monson74
06-13-2005, 04:30 AM
It's not often you see a d├ębutante go gold on these forums... I think the fiffies are fine - if only the firing order could be fixed they would be perfect.

Sturm_Williger
06-13-2005, 06:37 AM
I have no problem with the concept of the fifties firing order being staggered, but I can't see that their firepower needs to be increased.

I'm not a good pilot or shot, but even in a P40 I can knock things down.

I find it amusing that after the 151/20 gets a realistic/historical loadout people start saying things like "please tone it down". Nobody asks for the Hispano's to be "toned down."

VF-29_Sandman
06-13-2005, 06:49 AM
at 200-300m convergance on the 50's, they shred. it does seem like the jug loses a tad, but then again, the fw's seem alot like delta wood

OldMan____
06-13-2005, 07:01 AM
Yesterday there was a guy complaining non stop about .50 in WC. he kept tellin gus its hit coutn etc.. Then he hit me (my FW190-A9) and destoyed my engine, cut of left rear elevator and destoryed 2 guns. I obviously was downed. Then I asked him how many bulelt he had hit. He called gunstat and.. 23 bullets was the answer.


That is NORMAL!! We are talking about a plane made to hit b17 from close behind.. suvivinr their fire for enough time to blow them off.

In another flight another guy also shot me down.. and surprise.. he did it with 7 hits! Do you really think .50 should need less than 7 hits to down an heavy armored fighter?

.50 was not intended to blow things in mid air! If a small caliber gun with AP only (or almost AP only ) capability was enough to blow planes in mid air, specially bombers, why would in hell LW develop 20mm MG shells and Mk108 and Mk103 cannons? I will tell you why! because .50 were not able to obliterate heavy targets in short bursts. They were (and are in game), capable of putting any fighter out of action. This is what they were intended for.

new-fherathras
06-13-2005, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
Yesterday there was a guy complaining non stop about .50 in WC. he kept tellin gus its hit coutn etc.. Then he hit me (my FW190-A9) and destoyed my engine, cut of left rear elevator and destoryed 2 guns. I obviously was downed. Then I asked him how many bulelt he had hit. He called gunstat and.. 23 bullets was the answer.


That is NORMAL!! We are talking about a plane made to hit b17 from close behind.. suvivinr their fire for enough time to blow them off.

In another flight another guy also shot me down.. and surprise.. he did it with 7 hits! Do you really think .50 should need less than 7 hits to down an heavy armored fighter?

.50 was not intended to blow things in mid air! If a small caliber gun with AP only (or almost AP only ) capability was enough to blow planes in mid air, specially bombers, why would in hell LW develop 20mm MG shells and Mk108 and Mk103 cannons? I will tell you why! because .50 were not able to obliterate heavy targets in short bursts. They were (and are in game), capable of putting any fighter out of action. This is what they were intended for.



I agree 100%



when most pilots in ww2 got hit, even lightly, they bailed or RTB`d as fast as they could, they did not stay and fight a lost battle like onnline pilots do.

crazyivan1970
06-13-2005, 10:52 AM
I am confused. In current version 50s are more powerfull then ever... and still no go? I had no problems shooting down 3 Franks and Ki100 in COOP and had 50% ammo left. Define "cant get it right" for me mate... where is the right? Before i get Olegs attention with this, i have to provide facts... like guys did with MG151 belt loading... 30MB of data from reliable sources. You know what i mean. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Guard4891
06-13-2005, 12:30 PM
crazyivan,I agree with u that .50cal is very powerful.But there is something wrong with 190 and 109's DM.

I did some test.Using .50cal against P47,La7,spit and IL2 we can see it is very deadly.But it is not that effective when against 190s and 109s.

Then I shot 190A9s with MG151/20 on dora.To my surprise those A9s can take a lot M-Geschoss before they go down.What I found and am quite sure is that 190A9 and dora dont leak fuel even u put dozens of hits from all kinds of weapon on them.That is why people think .50cal is weak,because after dozens of hits those 190 dont even leak fuel.That means the attacker cant see any damage.

That I believe is a bug.Fuel tank should not be invulnerable.

And the fuel tank on 109 is stong too.Although it will leak after some hits,it is very unlikely to get on fire.(Using .50cal it is way more easier to set those fuel tanks on P47,La7 and other ACs on fire than to set the 109's fuel tank on fire.

So,sir,would u plz contact Mr.Maddox and ask him to check the DM on 190 and 109,especially the fuel tanks.

Btw,although .50cal is not weak,it has a well known bug.The way M2 MG shoots is wrong.The .50s should fire like the .303s on the Hurricane. Right now all of the machine guns fire syncronized, so that on a airplane with six machine guns you get "packets" of six bullets a few times a second. In reality, the machine guns were unsynchronized, both naturally and deliberately, so that instead of packets that a target can fly through, you get a stream(that is the adv to put weapons on wings).

crazyivan,could u ask Mr.Maddox if it is possible to change M2 MG and let it fire unsynchronized?(which I believe should not be hard,since those .303 on hurricane work well).

Thanks for your time,crazyivan.
Salute.

StellarRat
06-13-2005, 12:58 PM
I think .50s are more powerful than ever, but they are also harder to hit with now due to dispersion and the flight model changes that make the planes more jittery. If you get to 200m meters or less and you hit they are good.

My problem is that it is hard to get "time on target" for more than about a 1/2 second burst. But even that can bring a plane down. I seriously doubt that many of the online pilots are able to get a full 2 second burst on anyone. If I could get those 2 seconds on target I'm quite sure any fighter would go down.

Aaron_GT
06-13-2005, 02:36 PM
In WW2 multiple kills per sortie, for Axis or Allied, were very rare. It is relatively easy to achieve this in the game. This is probably due to a combination of factors - e.g. we are not feeling Gs, aren't in fear of our lives, get more operational training and so on. Looking at the effectiveness per bullet of the 50 cal and things seem about right. In real life planes were strong but supple structures with redundancy, and a fair amount of non critical space (firing bullets into the rear fuselage and destroying the radio would make a WW2 plane ineffective, but wouldn't knock it out of the sky) and average hit rates were around 5-10% (or about 5 to 10 rounds of a 1 second burst from a P51D). In other words sometimes in real life you'd get a good angle and hit something critical and BOOM. And at other times the enemy would fly away. Whether or not the sim has got the exact balance of this correct is another matter, but these things were possible in real life. There are specific issues with the 50 cal, mostly the salvo firing.

Chuck_Older
06-13-2005, 03:29 PM
I gotta say it-

this was posted for general consumption for a reason. Otherwise, it would have read

"Ivan, check PMs, signed Bruno"

Don't know why you didn't do that Bruno, but this should have been a PM of it was for Ivan to actually convey to Oleg

I haven't flown 4.0 at all yet, and probably won't- I'll be flying 4.01. That said, I haven't ever seen the problem with the 50 cals, ever, through any of the moan-fests concerning it, from day one. If anything, it's waaaaayyyyy too easy to get strikes in FB, with ANY weapon. It's either that, or I'm a regular Danl Boone http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Maybe 4.0 is so drastically different? I can't say

EURO_Bruno
06-13-2005, 04:31 PM
You're absolutely right Older. . . .I'm sorry that I even brought it up. Alot of these replies, should be noted, come from dedicated Blue teamers who rarely fly Allied aircraft with their own agenda at stake.

Bear this in mind too. Shooting Japenese aircraft and German aircraft are two entirely different entities. There is no comparision. Damage models are wildly different. Flaming a Zero and flaming a 109 well. . .

I guess we'll just have to be satisfied with these punk fifties. So long as I have a Spit with twin Hispano's to wreak havoc upon 109's and 190's, this will have to do.

Its just a shame, nontheless, that the American fighter aircraft lethality is so poorly represented here. Considering that it was the American fighter aircraft industry that turned the tide in the Air War over Europe. The P-51D (and its six fifties) being one of those aircraft to have that distinction. Amazingly, they did this all with those "little" fifty calibers too. . . . Gee, it make you wonder how the hell they did that with no 20mm or 30mm cannons to lean on.

I consider this a testament to it accuracy and lethality.

I guess there is only so much you can do when trying to design an accurate representation of so many diverse ballistic and flight models. There are bound to be variables overlooked, ignored or simply unachievable.

I must say, given all the hard work that Oleg and his design team have done over the past many years, they should be congratulated on a strong effort and a job well done.

I am grateful for their collective efforts.

~S~

EURO_Bruno

JadehawkII
06-13-2005, 07:41 PM
I'm with Crazyivan here, Shot down the new Ki-100, a Betty and Bf-109s and Fw-190 (the hardest) but I did shoot them all down and it's really not that hard for me.

What is the problem I think is the combination of the new FM, some tweaking of the DM models for some planes and the .50 changes. Combine all that and I think it's just a matter of relearning a thing or two.

I even shot down a Radien interceptor that went POOF in a cloud of dust.
Lucky? maybe so, I'm just I'm happy as the game currently is.

PTW...the cannons on the Bf-109 and Fw-190 sure is a pain in da butt! LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Grey_Mouser67
06-13-2005, 08:25 PM
The yaw occillations are making gunnery much harder...I think it is overdone and hopefully will be toned down...the biggest issue is the DM of the Fw...it has changed and been toughened. I've flown the 4.0 enough online and offline to be totally convinced.

I don't see this as a good change...it was already the most survivable aircraft in the game prior to patch and now it is much like it was in the days before the complex damage modelling.

Overall, the .50's feel about like they did before...if the Mg151/20's are going to stay that strong...then I think the HMG's should be adjust upwards too...way too much disparity right now. Cannons were more powerful, no doubt, but not that much. I feel like the 151/20's may now be more powerful than hispano's....a tad too much

I'd caution about comparing coop AI kills/offline kills with online...whole different ball game. The AI has a nasty habit of spiraling into the ground while evading now so the comparison is just not accurate.