PDA

View Full Version : DO335 removed from 4.04?



TX-Zen
02-27-2006, 01:39 PM
I noticed in the skins forum a few people mentioned that the DO335 has been removed from 4.04....anyone know if this is true and if so, why would it be taken out?

berg417448
02-27-2006, 01:58 PM
It is still there.

xTHRUDx
02-27-2006, 01:59 PM
you have been mislead somehow. the plane is there in 04.

Waldo.Pepper
02-27-2006, 02:00 PM
Bollocks!

TX-Zen
02-27-2006, 02:22 PM
Interesting, maybe I misread the statement somehow.

Thanks for the responses

LUFT11_Hoflich
02-27-2006, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
It is still there.

What servers have the Do Available?

Thanks..
H¶f...

Hawgdog
02-27-2006, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by LUFT11_Hoflich:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
It is still there.

What servers have the Do Available?

Thanks..
H¶f... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sadly quake type servers with little thought of mapping, or plane sets.
Pitty, its a blast, but no match for late spits, mustangs.
GREAT runner tho'

Badsight.
02-27-2006, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by TX-Zen:
I noticed in the skins forum a few people mentioned that the DO335 has been removed from 4.04....anyone know if this is true and if so, why would it be taken out? why does any awesome performing plane get neutered ?

there has to be reasons behind the changes - regardless of what they may be or how we feel about them

Tully__
02-27-2006, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by TX-Zen:
Interesting, maybe I misread the statement somehow.

Thanks for the responses

IIRC I saw several posts that in 4.03 standalone the Do335 appeared in the QMB aircraft lists even though the Do335 is not in the standalone version...perhaps they were referring to a correction in the QMB lists for the standalone 4.04

As I don't currently have a PF standalone (non-merged) install I can't check...

Stoyanov
02-27-2006, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by LUFT11_Hoflich:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
It is still there.

What servers have the Do Available?

Thanks..
H¶f... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is a map on Spit vs 109 on wich Do335 is avail.

Unknown-Pilot
02-28-2006, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by Hawgdog:
GREAT runner tho'

No it's not.

It's been screwed without even so much courtesy as vaseline.

Not that any LW plane has as much performance as it should, but if this were accurate, they'd never waste 2 DB engines on the bloody thing because it's useless.

But then, that holds for the Ta-152 as well, another heap (in this game) that is clearly out performed by the D9 (either one).

But given the state of the Antons, we can't really be surprised.

Zen, you did mis-read - sorta. It *has* been removed, but we still have the 3D model and some BS joke of a lame FM to plod around with.

msalama
02-28-2006, 07:27 AM
Yadda yadda whine whine waaah blaaah... Hey, see my sig.

Doug_Thompson
02-28-2006, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
It *has* been removed, but we still have the 3D model and some BS joke of a lame FM to plod around with.

The Do 335 has no trouble whatsoever pulling away rapidly from boosted Spitfires or any other allied piston-engined plane €" as long as the Dornier's climbing.

As was noted on the first day of 4.03, climb is the Do 335's outstanding trait, not raw speed. This is consistent with what we know of the real plane. It needed methanol boost to reach 476mph.

Unknown-Pilot
02-28-2006, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Doug_Thompson:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
It *has* been removed, but we still have the 3D model and some BS joke of a lame FM to plod around with.

The Do 335 has no trouble whatsoever pulling away rapidly from boosted Spitfires or any other allied piston-engined plane €" as long as the Dornier's climbing.

As was noted on the first day of 4.03, climb is the Do 335's outstanding trait, not raw speed. This is consistent with what we know of the real plane. It needed methanol boost to reach 476mph. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The acceleration has been ripped almost completely from it, while top speed (at least at SL) is still similar to what it was in 4.03.

Additionally, it's modest turn rate, which seemed to match all the reports, has also been ripped from it.

On top of all that, it has been noted (by at least one other person while flying online) that it seems to actually fly *better* with a bomb in it, than without. (To me, there is no difference, 1000Kg bomb load or no, it behaves the same)

Seems they added the weight of the big bomb in the form of ballast, and then removed all the weight from the bombs themselves (in essence).

It's now a so-so bomber, but still not as good as the 262A-2. While that can only carry 500Kg (half of what the Do can carry), it can get there, and then get out, with much more speed (and thereby, safety).

Some have suggested a global FM change to get rid of the so-called wobbles so many whined about (but not everyone had), which hurt a number of planes in particular.

That may be, but whatever the case, it has been screwed. It's now no longer an A-0. Maybe an early prototype.

As mentioned, not worth the cost of 2 DB engines. 2 109s would be better use of them, and 190s would be a far better use of metal overall. Really, that should not be the case. (and it wasn't in 4.03)

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-28-2006, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TX-Zen:
Interesting, maybe I misread the statement somehow.

Thanks for the responses

IIRC I saw several posts that in 4.03 standalone the Do335 appeared in the QMB aircraft lists even though the Do335 is not in the standalone version...perhaps they were referring to a correction in the QMB lists for the standalone 4.04

As I don't currently have a PF standalone (non-merged) install I can't check... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It shows up in the QMB list *but* if you try and actually start a game with it you get a 'plane not found yada yada' error message

Doug_Thompson
02-28-2006, 08:29 AM
The acceleration has been ripped almost completely from it, while top speed (at least at SL) is still similar to what it was in 4.03.

Is the accelleration rate worse in 4.04 than in 4.03?


Additionally, it's modest turn rate, which seemed to match all the reports, has also been ripped from it.

All the reports from German test pilots say the Do 335 had an excellent turn rate -- for a big two-engined airplane. They weren't comparing it to single-engined fighters, if I'm not mistaken.


On top of all that, it has been noted (by at least one other person while flying online) that it seems to actually fly *better* with a bomb in it, than without. (To me, there is no difference, 1000Kg bomb load or no, it behaves the same)

There may be a real problem here. Mustang fans, in their bitter lamentations about the patch's effect, have complained that the Do 335 with bombs outclimbs them.

However, note that these complaints would not exist if the Dornier didn't have that excellent climb rate. Climb rate was the major point of my earlier post. It's hard to argue that a plane's been nerfed when it can outclimb high-performance alllied fighters, with or without bombs.


As mentioned, not worth the cost of 2 DB engines. 2 109s would be better use of them, and 190s would be a far better use of metal overall. Really, that should not be the case. (and it wasn't in 4.03)

That statement is generally true of all twin-engined fighters, except where range is a factor. The Do 335 is no exception.

AKA_TAGERT
02-28-2006, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Hawgdog:
Sadly quake type servers with little thought of mapping, or plane sets.
For the most part that is true, but there are a few good servers that rotate a map in with the Do335. Check out HISTORIA server. They have a map with the Do335. You have to pay att, it is a base right next to another, you have to zoom in to find it, and they only allow like 2 or 3 of them before the base is full. I love that option in a server!

Unknown-Pilot
02-28-2006, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Doug_Thompson:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The acceleration has been ripped almost completely from it, while top speed (at least at SL) is still similar to what it was in 4.03.

Is the accelleration rate worse in 4.04 than in 4.03? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That has been my experience.

Online and off, I have been run down in 4.04 by planes that would have been left choking on propwash under similar circumstances in 4.03.

In particular, some fights have suddenly become impossible. It could be that zoom is lowered, or that climb is lowered, but it feels *much* slower all around. However, since it still hits about 621 TAS on Crimea at 40m with rads closed (although with less than 100% fuel IIRC), it's top speed isn't really different. That leaves low speed acceleration. Just like the 190A, actually.




<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Additionally, it's modest turn rate, which seemed to match all the reports, has also been ripped from it.

All the reports from German test pilots say the Do 335 had an excellent turn rate -- for a big two-engined airplane. They weren't comparing it to single-engined fighters, if I'm not mistaken. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note where I said "modest" turn rate. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif There was no way it would compete with a Spitfire or a Yak or even a 109 (or Dora) in 4.03. But it *was* very good for a twin engine plane and certainly capable of getting out of it's own way. The combination of all those things, acceleration (noted as one of it's most outstanding features by all pilots), high speed climb rate, high speed roll rate, high top speed, and modest (overall, though suprising for a twin) turn rate was that made it so capable in 4.03.

With the loss of 2 of those things (at least), turn and acceleration, it has been nerfed.

That is to say, it was capable as a fighter, and a logical use of resources in 4.03 which matched every account and document I've ever read relating to it. Whereas, in 4.04 it's a so-so bomber that has no real benefit of any kind at all (vs other (LW) aircraft that one could use in the time frame).




<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">On top of all that, it has been noted (by at least one other person while flying online) that it seems to actually fly *better* with a bomb in it, than without. (To me, there is no difference, 1000Kg bomb load or no, it behaves the same)

There may be a real problem here. Mustang fans, in their bitter lamentations about the patch's effect, have complained that the Do 335 with bombs outclimbs them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Similar to how the 190 pilots complained it was *impossible* to outclimb a Spitfire in this game, despite Oleg's insistance that it was?

What I mean is, the 335 is so fast (eventually) that a high speed climb is very useful and a pursuing Mustang could easily be left behind. Also, with enough smash high enough up, a zoom would be very effective too. But this would not be limited to the 335.

You watch, we'll be left with the arbitrary ballast and the bombs will gain massive weight and it won't move at all with anything inside. Vegas would rate that a sure bet. lol




However, note that these complaints would not exist if the Dornier didn't have that excellent climb rate. Climb rate was the major point of my earlier post. It's hard to argue that a plane's been nerfed when it can outclimb high-performance alllied fighters, with or without bombs.

What did you use it for primarily in the short lived 4.03? I'm guessing if you only did JaBo with it there might be little apparent change. If you used it for A2A, there's a *big* change.




<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As mentioned, not worth the cost of 2 DB engines. 2 109s would be better use of them, and 190s would be a far better use of metal overall. Really, that should not be the case. (and it wasn't in 4.03)

That statement is generally true of all twin-engined fighters, except where range is a factor. The Do 335 is no exception. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't agree. The Mosquito, Whirlwind, and F7F are phenomenal fighters/performers all around, and range can be had by single engine fighters, as demonstrated by the P-47 and P-51.

What your saying would mean that it would be better to build more Spitfires than any Mosquitos. I don't see that as being true.

Additionally, the greatest negatives of a conventional twin design, increase drag from engine nacells, reduced wing efficiency from the same, and increased drag and weight from extra rudder area needed to cope with asymetric thrust in emergencies, as well as that same asymmetric thrust in emergencies, are all defeated by the 335's design. Not only that, but the props are also going to be more efficient as well. (ever take 2 PC fans (for example) and place them in series? The resultant flow and force is much greater than when in paralell)

TX-Zen
02-28-2006, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
But then, that holds for the Ta-152 as well, another heap (in this game) that is clearly out performed by the D9 (either one).


Respectfully I have to disagree on the Ta152 assessment. I've been meaning to make a post on it's performance, so I might as well make some comments now.

I think it's everything and more that a D9 pilot could want. I know it is for me, except in roll rate naturally. (but even thats manageable with rudder to help it along). The thing I am really digging about it is the turn rate is now very competitive in an appropriate way and similar to the accounts pilots made about it. You're not going to outturn a spitfire, but you can stay in the saddle, in particular at high speeds, long enough to get a shot off. One just needs to take care not to get greedy and enter into a protracted turn fight where speed drops below 300km/h. This is where it really does seem to match performance estimates of matching the La7 turn rate, which IIRC Oleg himself said was the case.

It's extremely good at handling P51's, P47's, P38's and Tempests at most altitudes with only the P47 seeming to have an edge up high. Thats still a bit unhistorical imho considering the Ta was supposed to have been the best ultra high altitude fighter bar none, but it's been that way most of the time so I tend to not worry about it. In any case pilots don't often fight at 10k+ and I haven't got into any fights at that altitude yet either, so I won't make a conclusive statement at this point. I do know that at 8k it seems the P47D has the endge, but for practical purposes I think the Ta falls into the +/- 10% FM modelling...and thats ok by me.

I'm still out on the fence about the late spits and the new 25lb boost version up high. They always seemed to be too forgiving at extreme altitudes and I haven't run across any yet, so I can't really compare. Judging by how often you see them at altitude I'd be inclined to think they aren't like they were in previous patches. One thing I am certain of in this game is the 'mob' mentality...if a plane is easy to fly in a given altitude band, thats where you'll find them. Typically only the pilots with some sac will fight at altitudes where it takes some understanding of the FM to be successful at.

Stall behavior is not historical, but as far as I can tell it is pretty much identical to any other plane in the game and this is something I feel that the global engine will never handle properly anyway because of the way the Ta is designed. I've said so numerous times in the past and thats also something I have just come to accept. The good news is that the rapid and ultra unhistorical flat spin is nearly gone. It takes a little work to get into one, but it's not the spin death trap that it used to be.

As always you have to be careful with the rudder input when using aileron or risk an instant stall with possible spin, but if you are mindful of that nasty habit the Ta is quite easy to fly. It's low altitude performance matches more closely with historical accounts, speed is ok (maybe too slow, maybe too fast depending on which chart you read) and most of it's bad handling vices are gone which were overdone imho anyway.

All things considered I think we have a fair representation of the historical aircraft with the main discrepancies being things the global engine doesn't handle well in any case. Being able to engage the MW50 and the GM1 at the same time per the real aircraft would be interesting, but with the way the game models overheat it probably wouldn't even be worth using, and if it gave significant improvement in acceleration I don't think there would be any end to the allied whining.

With the lack of data on what would really happen with them both engaged I personally don't worry about it and there's no hard proof it would generate monstrous power either, but it would be nice to see what Oleg thinks.

As it is I simply love the Ta as currently modelled and have no major complaints.

Doug_Thompson
02-28-2006, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is the accelleration rate worse in 4.04 than in 4.03?

That has been my experience.

Online and off, I have been run down in 4.04 by planes that would have been left choking on propwash under similar circumstances in 4.03.

In particular, some fights have suddenly become impossible. It could be that zoom is lowered, or that climb is lowered, but it feels *much* slower all around. However, since it still hits about 621 TAS on Crimea at 40m with rads closed (although with less than 100% fuel IIRC), it's top speed isn't really different. That leaves low speed acceleration. Just like the 190A, actually.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is alarming, because Do 335 accelleration in 4.03 was already poor. I haven't noticed because, basically, I get moving and never slow down. It's all BnZ for me, all the time.

I don't do Jabo. I'm even more lousy at Jabo than a2a.


The Mosquito, Whirlwind, and F7F are phenomenal fighters/performers all around, and range can be had by single engine fighters, as demonstrated by the P-47 and P-51.

Well, I can't speak for the real thing, but I wouldn't take the Mosquito in the game into a dogfight. If I had to take a twin-engined plane into a fight, my choice would still be the Do 335.

As for the Whirlwind, it does support your side of the argument. It was a good plane, hurt by unreliable engines. Would a Whirlwind with two Merlins have been as good as two Spitfires, though? I doubt it. Same goes for the Tigercat vs. two Corsairs with those 2,800 hp engines.

Unknown-Pilot
02-28-2006, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Doug_Thompson:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is the accelleration rate worse in 4.04 than in 4.03?

That has been my experience.

Online and off, I have been run down in 4.04 by planes that would have been left choking on propwash under similar circumstances in 4.03.

In particular, some fights have suddenly become impossible. It could be that zoom is lowered, or that climb is lowered, but it feels *much* slower all around. However, since it still hits about 621 TAS on Crimea at 40m with rads closed (although with less than 100% fuel IIRC), it's top speed isn't really different. That leaves low speed acceleration. Just like the 190A, actually.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is alarming, because Do 335 accelleration in 4.03 was already poor. I haven't noticed because, basically, I get moving and never slow down. It's all BnZ for me, all the time.

I don't do Jabo. I'm even more lousy at Jabo than a2a. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In theory, one would never have to slow down in a fight, however, in (PF)reality, it doesn't work out that way.

I'm an energy fighter by preference. That means not strictly BnZ, but often (maybe even more often than not). I prefer the P-47, 190, and Tempest, and lately have been flying the 190 most of the time. It's not like you can even *try* to turn fight in a P-47 or even a 190 against most adversaries.

But that's neither here nor there. The acceleration has been diminished, along with what little turn rate it had (incidentally, I notice the Tempest is turning less well in 4.04 also), combined it means in most DF circumstances it's lost it's potential.




<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Mosquito, Whirlwind, and F7F are phenomenal fighters/performers all around, and range can be had by single engine fighters, as demonstrated by the P-47 and P-51.

Well, I can't speak for the real thing, but I wouldn't take the Mosquito in the game into a dogfight. If I had to take a twin-engined plane into a fight, my choice would still be the Do 335.

As for the Whirlwind, it does support your side of the argument. It was a good plane, hurt by unreliable engines. Would a Whirlwind with two Merlins have been as good as two Spitfires, though? I doubt it. Same goes for the Tigercat vs. two Corsairs with those 2,800 hp engines. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless you're moving mud, then the F7F without even a moment's hesitation. The in game Mosquito is very effective as a fighter, just not in late '44. But then, it is in the game as a '42 plane, and in that, or even '43, would be phenomenal. Either way, it's speed, firepower, and ordnance capability make it more effective and useful than 2 Spitfires.

Unknown-Pilot
02-28-2006, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by TX-Zen:
Respectfully I have to disagree on the Ta152 assessment. I've been meaning to make a post on it's performance, so I might as well make some comments now.

I think it's everything and more that a D9 pilot could want....

Zen, I don't know how to explain that one, other than perhaps we fight in dissimilar circumstances.

I tend toward the DF servers, and as such, generally less than 5Km. You talk about 8Km and up, and I can't recall the last time I was up there in anything other than a Komet. So that may be the cause for the differing opinion.

For the record - I love flying the 190, and tend to do so more than any other plane. I don't claim to be an expert, just comfortable with them. I love the speed and the fluidity and dynamic nature of them. Other planes just feel encumbered and slow by comparison.

The Dora is certainly the best. I prefer the look and killer firepower of the Antons, but also try to stick to them for purposes of practice and increasing sweetness of success. The Dora can spoil a person. lol

And that said, I see the 152 as nothing good. Perhaps a stop-gap inbetween the A and D, but I'm not even sure I'd like it from that perspective. (talking about means of using it, not it's design)

It's roll is slow, it's acceleration isn't special, it's climb rate may be good, but it's no 109, Spitfire, or La7, and it's top speed is rather low. It almost forces it's pilot to lean on turn rate, and that isn't such a good idea either because it can't turn all that well.

Recently online in a DF server with the Crimea map (that I was hosting), I was 1v1 with a P-51D. We started the fight at 4500m.

Now, right there - I took off first, and spent my time from Sevastopol to Simferopol climbing in order to reach that alt when I got there. The Mustang, which as I said, took off after me, met me at co-alt near his airbase.

Once I got past the initial head scratching, we proceeded to get into it. He was faster, and had better zoom. Then when I tried to turn on him, he started to turn, and I could not keep up. He admitted it was using Combat flaps, but I had actually gone to Take Off flaps in an attempt to stay with him. (those "laminar flow wings" were sure acting high lift, let me tell ya)

Even in 4.03, when a furball developed and La7s and +25lb Spits were on the opposing side, I was helpless in a 152. However, re-planning with a '45 D9, I was back in the saddle and on the offensive.

And it's still that way in 4.04. I would *never* take the 152 if I had a chance to take a D9 (either version) instead. The Dora simply outperforms the 152 dramatically where it will actually see any opposition.

DmdSeeker
02-28-2006, 11:31 AM
Is the Do 335 still enabled on Warclouds?

Doug_Thompson
02-28-2006, 12:38 PM
Oldman had a good post on acceleration after 4.03. Let's hope for a sequel. I'm not doubting what you say, Unknown-Pilot, just wanting to see the damage in numbers.

Willey
02-28-2006, 03:06 PM
The Do is lacking MW-50. An A-1 would rock. That would mean a total of 1020hp more, and 2x 250kg external load. With 3500hp, and 9,3t (weight with 500kg bomb load), I come to 2,66kg/hp. That's not good at all. It would be 2,06 with MW-50, same weight (probably without bombs, as the MW-50 system weighs some).

Viper2005_
02-28-2006, 03:19 PM
Take the Do-335 up to altitude. You don't need MW50; the tears of your enemies will suffice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Unknown-Pilot
02-28-2006, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Take the Do-335 up to altitude. You don't need MW50; the tears of your enemies will suffice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

That isn't the point.


Doug, I'm hoping that Robban, Oldman, and the others do all their tests for 4.04 as well. I'm actually kind of surprised that it hasn't been done yet.

Along those lines though, the "other side" seems awfully quiet on this issue. Seems they don't have a problem with it, and that in and of itself indicates a problem ('round these parts). lol

TX-Zen
03-01-2006, 08:16 AM
Unknown,

Maybe we do have a difference in style, naturally I can't say without us winging together for a while. Also my comments are generally based on the mixed furball approach, and like any 190, the Ta can be in a tough spot in a 1 on 1 against better turning fighters down low. As a BnZer it's obviously marvelous, but it does very well as an E fighter also...maybe not quite to the same degree as the Dora, but I fly both almost exclusively and have now for years. Imho they are in the same league for energy tactics.

I feel that if you fly the Ta like the Dora you will have comparable performance (minus the roll rate) but with the option for short periods of hard turning if needed. It's an energy fighter but in a pinch can compete with the TnB crowd, something the Dora definately has problems doing.

Advantages of the Ta are that if you end up down on the deck you can often turn your way out of a bad spot in a mixed furball because of the greater ability the Ta has. Often you don't need a true sustained turn advantage, you just need to be able to generate angles comparable to the other guy in order to deny him a shot while you work for E advantage. Naturally I don't recommend a pure TnB approach with it, but flying it like the Dora and turning hard when necessary works very well for me. Acceleration is close enough to feel like a Dora at low speeds, but typical for the 190 series pretty abysmal in a straight run to get to top SL speed.

The bigger advantage for the Ta though is that the higher you go, the better it gets relative to other allied types except the P47D as I mentioned. Above 6k it seems to have a clear advantage over the Dora, above 8k there is no doubt (particularly in the spiral climb) and above 10k it has only one contender and thats the 47. (edit: haven't calculated against spitfire in 4.04m yet)

I typically fly just under 7k to avoid contrailing, but often take the Ta down to much lower altitudes. I personally don't mind being down on the deck with it either, I genuinely feel it's got enough oomph to survive. I don't have any problems with P51s down low, though I have noticed in the 6k range the 51 seems to be able to turn better than the Ta and definately outrolls it which can make it a sticky fight.

I'd say with the Ta you have about 90%+ of what the dora has performance wise, plus better turn ability and bigger guns. The Ta completely outclasses the anton so I don't feel any comparison is useful there because tactics are different.


If you ask me the problem must be related to some difference in technique. I do equally well in the dora or the Ta and generally get more kills in the Ta due to the mk108 and better turning ability. When flying the Ta I don't have to work as hard as the dora because I can take advantage of the turn rate advantage to get in shots that I wouldn't otherwise be able to. For me the dora has better defensive abilities, the Ta better offensive abilities.

Unknown-Pilot
03-01-2006, 01:20 PM
Interesting. If I had never touched it before, reading your post would make me rather excited to try it.

You basically describe it as a Dora with better turn rate and more fire power and a bit less roll rate. But what I've found (as I've mentioned) was a plane that was slower to accelerate, much slower in top end, with barely more turn rate, and rather noticably reduced roll, saddled with guns that are much tougher to use.

1v1, I used a D9 '45 to give a +25# Spitfire fits the other day (online with 4.04). But as I said, I almost felt helpless against a P-51 in the 152.

Maybe it's a confidence issue (in that I don't have confidence in the 152), or maybe it's the other areas I mentioned, or maybe it's the idea that it can turn, screwing with my head.

But there's also this -


I typically fly just under 7k

Even with the good climb rate of the 152 I would not even consider such an altitude - not online at least. Offline I have time accel so yeah, but not without it. Even with the 335 7K takes too long (now that they've castrated it especially). (though I've not been called the most patient person in the world either. lol)

With the 190s, and particularly the D9s, I fly between 100 and 4000m. Usually around 1000m, as I try to avoid 2Km if possible since I keep hearing about a speed bug in that range.

It's counter intuitive, especially in this game, but I seem to do really well with them there. And if it's Spitfires high, I'll stay in the weeds at best turn and roll speed. They often (like on Historia) go up to about 5Km or so and have to blow most of that E in order to fight when I'm down that low. It gives me more options, and once I get them slow, I can usually take the advantage in the fight.

Flying the 152, in that way makes it feel out of it's element, and I end up leaning on turn much more and that kills it's speed and compounds the problem. I'll have to give it another chance though and try to force myself to fly it differently and see. I just hate giving up speed when I know that La7s and Yak9Us and +25# Spits are likely to be in the area. (plus the wider spread of 4 guns is a bit nicer too)

Viper2005_
03-01-2006, 01:31 PM
Some people seem to be able to make the Ta-152 perform magic tricks, other people can't.

I think it's a flying style thing.

Unfortunately for me, I'm in the "other people" category. But I've got a 1.65 ata A5 to play with, so I shan't fret.

TX-Zen
03-01-2006, 02:07 PM
I'm just a travelling used Ta152 salesman at heart http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Doug_Thompson
03-02-2006, 09:28 PM
Well, whadda know. It seems the Do 335 in 4.04 has lost much of the clear pull-away power the plane had in 4.03.

It can still pull away from a +25lb Spit in a climb, but much more slowly: Too slowly to do you much good if you let the other guy get close at all, now that the wobbles are gone. You'd get a sniper shot going into a very big airplane. You also have to be careful to keep the plane in trim to climb away.

Keep in mind, 4.04 reportedly toned down the +25 Spit too.

I don't see that much difference in Dornier turn or acceleration, though. None of this is subject to a good test, either.

As to whether the plane's ruined or not, I'd have to say that it can still climb away from the new Spitfire. That isn't bad for any plane. I loved the 4.03 version, but that model of the Dornier was probably too hot, to tell the truth.