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Mad_Moses
10-26-2005, 09:53 AM
I fly the FWs as much as anyone, after reading some of the posts about it; I would like to give some of my thoughts on the new FW modeling.

Damage modeling;
With all things considered I think it is very good. It still can absorde damage better than most aircraft. Comparing what all the weopeans can do for both sides I really think the damage modeling is very good across the board for all the aircraft. I think they did a good job with this patch in regard to damage model.

Flight characteristics:
Here I have a bit of problem with the 190s. Once again, generally across the board they did a very nice job with all the aircraft. I like the "fly by wire" feel of all the planes. It seems more realistic to me.

As for the 190A & D models I am a little disappointed in some of the flight characteristics.

The biggest problem is the initial turn ability, especially at higher speeds. In 4.01 I would come up behind a slower more maneuverable enemy aircraft like a Spitfire. I would wait for them to make their brake turn to one side or the other and with the 190's superior roll rate I could roll inside their turn for and broad side them, in essence out turn them for a 1/4 turn. Now it is imposable to do this maneuver with the directional instability and the way the aircraft bucks and kicks when you try to roll into a turn.

This is the fundamental advantage the FW has over every other aircraft but it can't be employed effectively any longer.

Speed retention is very poor. High speed slashing and rolling maneuvers just result in excessive buffing and loss of airspeed while the Allied aircraft do not experience this problem. The Ta-152 is still good in this department but the A & D models are very lacking.

The FWs are also trimmed to fly at slower speeds now, about 100kph slower, than they were in 4.01. High speed engagements result in more buffeting and shooting inaccuracy.

Dive characteristic have also been curtailed in the 190s. You€re not going to be able to dive away from too many enemy aircraft. Terminal dive speed on the A model is only about 840kph and it reaches that speed much slower than most of the Allied aircraft. They will gobble you right up.

It's a real challenge to fly the 190 against it contemporaries on the other side. If you go into a fight on equal terms or less, you have few options open to you to win or disengage from that fight.

Regards,
MM

faustnik
10-26-2005, 10:14 AM
Moses,

I have the opposite opinion of you for the 4.02 Fw190. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif It's funny how two people can look at the exact same thing and have completely different impressions.

The Fw190 DM in 4.02 has some specific problems. The fuel tank catches on fire from any hit by any caliber weapon. This is clearly not historic according to many sources. I still don't understand the list loss with the wing hits but, at least that has been consistant. The fuel leak bug is another issue that needs fixing.

The Fw190 FM is very good, as in favoring the Fw190, in 4.02. E-bleed with measured stick movements is very low. Roll and high speed maneuver are excellent. High speed stall is not as strong as many historical accounts describe. You can still dive away from light aircraft like Spitfires and Soviet a/c but, not from P-51s and P-47s. This is an improvement in my opinion, as the American a/c were superior in dive ability.

The global FM favors turn fighting more than B&Z in 4.02, but, that does not mean the Fw190s FM in specific has been downgraded. Relative to the American a/c the realism of the Fw190 FM has been improved with the patch.

Real pilots had different impressions of the same a/c too. Read the "Joint Fighter Conference Report", 20 pilots would have 20 different opinions of the exact same a/c. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Mad_Moses
10-26-2005, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
Moses,

I have the opposite opinion of you for the 4.02 Fw190. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif It's funny how two people can look at the exact same thing and have completely different impressions.

The Fw190 DM in 4.02 has some specific problems. The fuel tank catches on fire from any hit by any caliber weapon. This is clearly not historic according to many sources. I still don't understand the list loss with the wing hits but, at least that has been consistant. The fuel leak bug is another issue that needs fixing.

The Fw190 FM is very good, as in favoring the Fw190, in 4.02. E-bleed with measured stick movements is very low. Roll and high speed maneuver are excellent. High speed stall is not as strong as many historical accounts describe. You can still dive away from light aircraft like Spitfires and Soviet a/c but, not from P-51s and P-47s. This is an improvement in my opinion, as the American a/c were superior in dive ability.

The global FM favors turn fighting more than B&Z in 4.02, but, that does not mean the Fw190s FM in specific has been downgraded. Relative to the American a/c the realism of the Fw190 FM has been improved with the patch.

Real pilots had different impressions of the same a/c too. Read the "Joint Fighter Conference Report", 20 pilots would have 20 different opinions of the exact same a/c. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Yep... I couldn't disagree with you more.....

I have flown over 80 sorties in FWs against Allied aircraft on-line and I only caught fire once out of the 20 or so times I have taken enemy fire.

There is no way you can out dive a Spitfire or anything else.

I think the high speed handling of the FW has gone to hell.

The only hope with the 190s is not to maneuver at all or you€re a dead man. B & Z is the only hope.

Yep.... 100% opposite to the way I feel about the flight model changes.

Amazing to see someone post the exact opposite impressions I have come to learn.

Either I am crazy or I am the only one who really understands the new flight modeling.

Cheers,
MM

ColoradoBBQ
10-26-2005, 11:44 PM
I don't know, the high speed handling is pretty good. Yesterday on WC:WF, I spotted a Mustang 3 diving on me about 2 KM away so I doved to 600+ kph and pulled as much Gs as I could without blacking out. The Mustang couldn't keep up and had the tables turned as I flipped over the Mustang and followed it up in teh vertical climb. Didn't get him since its hard to control at slow speed.

WWMaxGunz
10-26-2005, 11:47 PM
Moses, a lot of people are getting the same control problems you see.
Nowadays the most reccomended cure is a complete uninstall, defrag, and reinstall.

I figure it'll be another month before people quit ****ging the FM over the deal.

NorrisMcWhirter
10-27-2005, 05:40 AM
^ I reinstalled from scratch and the install was indentical to what I had with an incremental patch to 4.02.

Maybe that does cure it for some but I wouldn't bet money on it being the real reason.

Ta
Norris

KIMURA
10-27-2005, 06:07 AM
I exclusively fly the 190 if flying the German side and the damage model of the 190 isn't that bad. But the most annoying thing with 4.02 and the 190 is the all-mystic fuel leak that let the fuel runs out completely even if the tank is hit by small calibres.

Bartolomeo_ita
10-27-2005, 06:57 AM
both sides I really think the damage modeling is very good across the board for all the aircraft. I think they did a good job with this patch in regard to damage model.

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/2711/9000ee.jpg

900 km/h

Maggi_4
10-27-2005, 08:39 AM
Just a few a questions:
Can someone tell me why Spit V climbs better than A4 in this game?
Can someone tell me why Spit V accelatres better than A4 in this game?

~S
V.4_Maggi

NorrisMcWhirter
10-27-2005, 09:24 AM
You need to climb 'fast' in a 190, at least at 350kmh. At that you should be able to outrun and outclimb a Spit Vb.

Acceleration (like most things in 4.02) isn't well modelled at all. Plus, the Spit has always had some curious qualities such as no-e-bleed UFO 180 degree turns and such like. Anything it does doesn't surprise me.

Ta,
norris

faustnik
10-27-2005, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Maggi_4:
Just a few a questions:
Can someone tell me why Spit V climbs better than A4 in this game?
Can someone tell me why Spit V accelatres better than A4 in this game?

~S
V.4_Maggi


If you speed up, the Spit V will never outclimb or out-accelerate you. The Spit has better climb acceleration below 350kph, the Fw190 is superior above that speed. So as long as you stay aboce 350kph, you hold all the cards in the Fw190A4.

Jetbuff
10-27-2005, 09:56 AM
Initial testing reveals the following interesting tid-bit:

In 4.02, turn-rate actually increases as speed decreases!

Let that sink in for a bit...

Yes, I have a track, but I'm holding out for something more conclusive.

In trying to make sense of these initial findings though, my initial conclusion is that drag now is increasing at a rate proportional to more than the square of speed. i.e. at low speeds planes are bleeding a lot less energy than they should while they lose progressively more than they should the faster they travel. Hence, when you are BnZing that hapless TnB plane, not only does he have the benefit of low E-bleed due to lower induced drag, (lower wing-loading = lower AoA) he now apparently has an extra generous allowance for the fact that he is travelling much slower than you. Meanwhile, you are getting the full drag treatment because of your much higher speed. This theory could also explain why it's so hard to slow down on final in some planes now.

3.JG51_BigBear
10-27-2005, 10:18 AM
I'm really happy with the current focke wulf. The damage model is definitely funky but overall the plane seems to have retained its performance from the last patch and still makes for a very stable gun platform after I figure out my joystick settings. I think they also fixed the yaw problem. In 4.01 you had to get up to almost 500kph before the plane centered itself but now it flys true at a much lower speed as it should.

Mad_Moses
10-27-2005, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Initial testing reveals the following interesting tid-bit:

In 4.02, turn-rate actually increases as speed decreases!

Let that sink in for a bit...

Yes, I have a track, but I'm holding out for something more conclusive.

In trying to make sense of these initial findings though, my initial conclusion is that drag now is increasing at a rate proportional to more than the square of speed. i.e. at low speeds planes are bleeding a lot less energy than they should while they lose progressively more than they should the faster they travel. Hence, when you are BnZing that hapless TnB plane, not only does he have the benefit of low E-bleed due to lower induced drag, (lower wing-loading = lower AoA) he now apparently has an extra generous allowance for the fact that he is travelling much slower than you. Meanwhile, you are getting the full drag treatment because of your much higher speed. This theory could also explain why it's so hard to slow down on final in some planes now.

Yes have noticed this as well, good point.

Turbulent air effects seem to come into play excessively at high speeds.

On that same line of thought.... I have also noticed that air speed can be regained or sustained quite easily after a stall for most aircraft traveling at slower speeds.

MM

gates123
10-27-2005, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by KIMURA:
I exclusively fly the 190 if flying the German side and the damage model of the 190 isn't that bad. But the most annoying thing with 4.02 and the 190 is the all-mystic fuel leak that let the fuel runs out completely even if the tank is hit by small calibres.

My fuel leak seemed to have sealed itself online. Got struck by a few 50's. Hispanos might be a different story

avramis
10-29-2005, 03:04 AM
I had a look around the treads here for quite some time now. I ve been flying 109's for a long time, and would like to start learning the fw 190. I know the very basics off this aircraft but nothing else..
Could anyone post some links to sites with focke info and tips/tutorials?


*Terribly sorry to post this in a topic that is not here to answer to questions such as this... I went through 70(!) topics in this forum so far using the search engine provided in this forum, and yet i found no answers...

robban75
10-29-2005, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by avramis:
I had a look around the treads here for quite some time now. I ve been flying 109's for a long time, and would like to start learning the fw 190. I know the very basics off this aircraft but nothing else..
Could anyone post some links to sites with focke info and tips/tutorials?


Check out these threads. They have some good info on how to fly the 190. Alot to read, but well worth it IMO. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7981062662/p/2

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&s=400102&a=tpc...41100583&r=903107583 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&s=400102&a=tpc&f=23110283&m=441100583&r=903107583)

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=9661024732

Vipez-
10-29-2005, 04:11 AM
Originally posted by gates123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KIMURA:
I exclusively fly the 190 if flying the German side and the damage model of the 190 isn't that bad. But the most annoying thing with 4.02 and the 190 is the all-mystic fuel leak that let the fuel runs out completely even if the tank is hit by small calibres.

My fuel leak seemed to have sealed itself online. Got struck by a few 50's. Hispanos might be a different story </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Kimura meant the grey fuel leak bug, it's sort of grey smoke popping out of the plane, if you get this you will run out of fuel very shortly, no matter how much you have fuel left..

White "normal" fuel leaks' selfsealing allways have worked, but the problem is with the grey bugleaks..

bazzaah2
10-31-2005, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by avramis:
I had a look around the treads here for quite some time now. I ve been flying 109's for a long time, and would like to start learning the fw 190. I know the very basics off this aircraft but nothing else..
Could anyone post some links to sites with focke info and tips/tutorials?


*Terribly sorry to post this in a topic that is not here to answer to questions such as this... I went through 70(!) topics in this forum so far using the search engine provided in this forum, and yet i found no answers...

check out

http://www.airwarfare.com/tactics/tactics_fwtactics.htm

loads of stuff there.

geetarman
10-31-2005, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Mad_Moses:
I fly the FWs as much as anyone, after reading some of the posts about it; I would like to give some of my thoughts on the new FW modeling.

Damage modeling;
With all things considered I think it is very good. It still can absorde damage better than most aircraft. Comparing what all the weopeans can do for both sides I really think the damage modeling is very good across the board for all the aircraft. I think they did a good job with this patch in regard to damage model.

Flight characteristics:
Here I have a bit of problem with the 190s. Once again, generally across the board they did a very nice job with all the aircraft. I like the "fly by wire" feel of all the planes. It seems more realistic to me.

As for the 190A & D models I am a little disappointed in some of the flight characteristics.

The biggest problem is the initial turn ability, especially at higher speeds. In 4.01 I would come up behind a slower more maneuverable enemy aircraft like a Spitfire. I would wait for them to make their brake turn to one side or the other and with the 190's superior roll rate I could roll inside their turn for and broad side them, in essence out turn them for a 1/4 turn. Now it is imposable to do this maneuver with the directional instability and the way the aircraft bucks and kicks when you try to roll into a turn.

This is the fundamental advantage the FW has over every other aircraft but it can't be employed effectively any longer.

Speed retention is very poor. High speed slashing and rolling maneuvers just result in excessive buffing and loss of airspeed while the Allied aircraft do not experience this problem. The Ta-152 is still good in this department but the A & D models are very lacking.

The FWs are also trimmed to fly at slower speeds now, about 100kph slower, than they were in 4.01. High speed engagements result in more buffeting and shooting inaccuracy.

Dive characteristic have also been curtailed in the 190s. You€re not going to be able to dive away from too many enemy aircraft. Terminal dive speed on the A model is only about 840kph and it reaches that speed much slower than most of the Allied aircraft. They will gobble you right up.

It's a real challenge to fly the 190 against it contemporaries on the other side. If you go into a fight on equal terms or less, you have few options open to you to win or disengage from that fight.

Regards,
MM

Try a Mustang - it's twice as bad. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Hunde_3.JG51
10-31-2005, 11:13 PM
Man, I typed that stuff ages ago, I am glad to see it is still helpful to some. Someday I'll have to update it since this game keeps changing with every patch. Thanks for posting it Robban and Baazaah.

As for my observations so far I would say:

-DM. I haven't been hit that often but I have yet to be set on fire. This may be a problem but I haven't experienced it yet. As for the fuel leak unfortunately I have experienced this and it is really frustrating. I lost all of my fuel in a VERY short time on a couple of occasions. I have yet to have a leak seal, and they were both caused by .50's. Overall I would need more time to comment on the DM, I am glad however it is no longer a tank, I just hope it wasn't at the expense of the old fuel leak bug and high flammability.

-FM. As for the FM I noticed a lack of roll inertia for all aircraft. I think this is a shame as it felt more realistic before instead of the on/off rolling we have now. Maybe I am wrong, who knows. Mad-Moses, your comment shows me that you really know the FW-190 when you talked about the instantaneous turn rate being lessened. As you said this was a very big strength for the 190 as it allowed you to wait until a superior turning aircraft broke, you could roll, tap flaps, and pull a hard, quick snapshot that was deadly with experience. Now that is gone as you simply cannot pull the required lead for whatever reason. It is a very subtle change that has very noticeable results to those who are familiar with this aspect of the 190. I fly mostly with my squad so I can't comment too much on e-retention and such as we usually use team-work to defeat the enemy, so I will reserve comment.

As a note, I had bad wobble problems after installing 4.02. I did a re-install, defragging beforehand, and after each disc/patch. I patched until 4.01 then created my pilot and settings and flew around a bit. I then installed 4.02 and replaced the conf.ini file with the old 4.01 file. The 4.02 patch I used was downloaded several days to a week after its initial release. My result was that I still have wobble/wandering problems. I can't seem to eliminate/reduce this no matter what. The result is, as someone else said, precision gunnery is out as any small correction results in the nose wandering around as if it was suspended by rubber bands and has just been set in motion. Anyway, in terms of FM I think 4.01 was the best patch for FB/PF to date, and I think 4.02 is one of the worst. Oh well, just my thoughts.

Jetbuff
11-01-2005, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by Mad_Moses:
On that same line of thought.... I have also noticed that air speed can be regained or sustained quite easily after a stall for most aircraft traveling at slower speeds.
Yes, I noticed that too. Also, some planes can now climb at ridiculously low speeds. (~130kph for the K-4 and ~120kph for the Spit IXe) Again, it lends credence to my crazy supposition earlier; drag too low at low speeds, high or normal at high speeds = thrust overcoming E-deficits quickly at low speeds.

avramis
11-01-2005, 02:02 AM
Just to let you people know, the links provided by Roban, held a treasure of knowledge concerning the FockeWulf, and proved very helpful. Thnx a lot! How come nobody ever compiled these treads in a pdf. ? And yes Hunde, an updated version of these would be awesome... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

vanjast
11-01-2005, 03:53 AM
You lot are forgetting the subtleties of torque, control surface secondary forces, etc..
If you want to roll fast, place rudder and stick in the same direction, or just flip-roll it. Rolling against the torque is slower than with it. As for those oscillations, just neutralise the control surfaces and it'll settle down in a second.

I been flying FW's exclusively for 3 years now and had no complaints, except for the one patch that made FW flip over to easily when pulling high G's.

The damage model has always been fairly consistent.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

OldMan____
11-01-2005, 05:53 AM
Overall I feel FW sufferednot many changes that are not related to general FM. But these ones are not very good for it. The HIgh Speed short time maneuvers are almost gone. Still rolls horribly at its high speed while its main enemy at these speeds the p51 is rolling much better than it should at that speed.

It ha the damm super fuel leak back. (by all means.. remove fuela leak from teh game if it cannot be set correctly, better not feature than a broken one).


But... some planes got so much affected by high speed stalls back on game that I think FW still get a good chance.


First time in a long time I am able to win on a spit at co-alt by building up more e than it during combat!!! I am being successfull on doing so 2 on each 3 times!!


Previously my main fear were spit 9.. now its the P51.


I just would want for a corrected roll and no super fuel leak. A return to previous high speed maneuverability also would be good.

quiet_man
11-01-2005, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
-DM. I haven't been hit that often but I have yet to be set on fire. This may be a problem but I haven't experienced it yet

the issue is biggest for MG, not so much from HMG and insignificant for cannons.

so it is mostly annoying when flying early missions, bomber intercept or ground attack. Just any mission with lots of enemy MG fire the 190 dies fast.

I would even say MGs are now bigger danger to 190 than cannons.

quiet_man

Bremspropeller
11-01-2005, 11:00 AM
As a note, I had bad wobble problems after installing 4.02. I did a re-install, defragging beforehand, and after each disc/patch. I patched until 4.01 then created my pilot and settings and flew around a bit. I then installed 4.02 and replaced the conf.ini file with the old 4.01 file. The 4.02 patch I used was downloaded several days to a week after its initial release. My result was that I still have wobble/wandering problems. I can't seem to eliminate/reduce this no matter what. The result is, as someone else said, precision gunnery is out as any small correction results in the nose wandering around as if it was suspended by rubber bands and has just been set in motion. Anyway, in terms of FM I think 4.01 was the best patch for FB/PF to date, and I think 4.02 is one of the worst. Oh well, just my thoughts.

Agree 100%

JG5_UnKle
11-01-2005, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
If you speed up, the Spit V will never outclimb or out-accelerate you. The Spit has better climb acceleration below 350kph, the Fw190 is superior above that speed. So as long as you stay aboce 350kph, you hold all the cards in the Fw190A4.

In theory Faustnik that should hold true, but I beg to differ. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I haven't looked at this in 4.02 yet but it would be interesting to compare the climbrates of the 190 and the Spit. I should test before I say this but...

Granted at 350kph you would be outclimbing the Spit -:: but ::- your overall sustained climbspeed and rate of climb would be lower. At 350kph lets say you manage 14 M/s (instead of the usual 18-20 M/s at lower speeds) then you are not at your best climbrate.

All the spit pilot needs to do is climb at a slower speed.

But a higher rate.

I know, I know, that sounds childishly obvious but think about what it represents. If your opponent has a better overall climbrate/climbtime to altitude then he just needs to be smart about the speed he climbs at.

Especially with the fact that in this sim you are not punished much for climbing below your best climb speed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

So if you do begin to accelerate away from the spit (level flight) he can just climb. If you begin to climb at 350kph he can just climb at 250 and still beat you up to altitude http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Of course you gain separation and separation is king in the Fw-190; which allows you choices and flexibility, BUT it doesn't equate to 350kph = Everything's OK http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (I know you didn't say that Faustnik http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif)

If the difference between best climb speed rates and low climb speed rates was increased I would be happier as I feel this would be more realistic. At the moment we have over compensated climbrates to keep some a/c "on top" (cough K-4) and not enough penalty for low-speed climbing (especially in high torque a/c) so you can climb comfortably outside your aircrafts "best" parameters.

Aaaaah I'm ranting now... bleh.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

faustnik
11-01-2005, 11:32 AM
Hey! I'm trying to take the glass is half full approach here! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I hear what you are saying Uncle, and it makes sense on paper. In an actual fight however, the Fw190A4 seems to be able to maintain the advantage.

If you meet a high Spit and the Spit spots you, he will dive on you. In your Fw190, you close radiator and split-S entering a shallow dive. The Spit will slowly fall behind and you can straighten out. When he is level with you, you can enter a high speed shallow climb. The Spit will rapidly end up well behind and well below, presenting you will the energy advantage.

This scenario plays itself out consistantly in squad COOPs against experienced Spit V pilots.

Yeah, I'd like to see low speed climbs brought under control too, but, we can manage with the current FM. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<span class="ev_code_RED">WARNING: Will not work against American planes!</span>

robban75
11-01-2005, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Also, some planes can now climb at ridiculously low speeds. (~130kph for the K-4 and ~120kph for the Spit IXe)

The more things change, the more they stay the same, I guess. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

OldMan____
11-01-2005, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
Hey! I'm trying to take the glass is half full approach here! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I hear what you are saying Uncle, and it makes sense on paper. In an actual fight however, the Fw190A4 seems to be able to maintain the advantage.

If you meet a high Spit and the Spit spots you, he will dive on you. In your Fw190, you close radiator and split-S entering a shallow dive. The Spit will slowly fall behind and you can straighten out. When he is level with you, you can enter a high speed shallow climb. The Spit will rapidly end up well behind and well below, presenting you will the energy advantage.

This scenario plays itself out consistantly in squad COOPs against experienced Spit V pilots.

Yeah, I'd like to see low speed climbs brought under control too, but, we can manage with the current FM. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<span class="ev_code_RED">WARNING: Will not work against American planes!</span>


Sometimes this work, but some spit pilts are expenrienced enough to never dive on a FW that has enough room to dive to 800> kph.

Against american planes just put in your mind you are an spitfire and most 51 and 47 will get so surprised on that atitude that you will get several victories ( I love to see a desesperate 51 spinning after too much pressure on stick because of a fake warning shot of mien when it was already at max turn rate. )

I would just love to have my good old x45 back so I could shot more Spit IX on my FW190A-8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

geetarman
11-01-2005, 05:38 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OldMan____:
Overall I feel FW sufferednot many changes that are not related to general FM. But these ones are not very good for it. The HIgh Speed short time maneuvers are almost gone. Still rolls horribly at its high speed while its main enemy at these speeds the p51 is rolling much better than it should at that speed.

Disagree - Both planes roll too well at lower speeds and not well enough at higher speeds. The Mustang is a bit closer to reality though. The high speed roll on the 190 seems off a good bit. It's low speed roll is ridiclously overdone.

faustnik
11-01-2005, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by OldMan____:

Sometimes this work, but some spit pilts are expenrienced enough to never dive on a FW that has enough room to dive to 800> kph. (

You are probably right. We fly COOPs though, and the Spitfires are usually doing something like escort or intercept so, they can't avoid chasing the Fw190s. In DF servers your scenario is probably more true.

WWMaxGunz
11-01-2005, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by JG5_UnKle:
<snip>

Granted at 350kph you would be outclimbing the Spit -:: but ::- your overall sustained climbspeed and rate of climb would be lower. At 350kph lets say you manage 14 M/s (instead of the usual 18-20 M/s at lower speeds) then you are not at your best climbrate.

All the spit pilot needs to do is climb at a slower speed.

But a higher rate.

<snip>


But in the real war, doing that would often get you killed in the battle. Okay to do
away from the fight but a bad idea where enemies are around.

1 on 1 was not the usual thing.

JG5_UnKle
11-02-2005, 01:26 AM
Yep, I was not having a good day http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

To be honest I don't have real "trouble" with the matchup as the speed difference is the major factor.

I pretty much only ever fly COOPs (DF servers are for warmups!) and the quality of Spit pilots is good. The main squad I fly against are dedicated Spit pilots, they know their a/c very well and are leagues ahead of the average dogfight crowd.

Usually our fights are 4vs or up to 12vs12 so I know what it is like in a harsh environment for both teams.

And Neal I agree - in real life http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif it's just the low-speed climb thingy that gets on my tits.

The glass isn't half-empty though Faust, the glass is just too big http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

OldMan____
11-02-2005, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by geetarman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by OldMan____:
Overall I feel FW sufferednot many changes that are not related to general FM. But these ones are not very good for it. The HIgh Speed short time maneuvers are almost gone. Still rolls horribly at its high speed while its main enemy at these speeds the p51 is rolling much better than it should at that speed.

Disagree - Both planes roll too well at lower speeds and not well enough at higher speeds. The Mustang is a bit closer to reality though. The high speed roll on the 190 seems off a good bit. It's low speed roll is ridiclously
overdone.


Just look at TARGET's roll test on sim HQ and you will see that 51 is overrolling at high speed while FW190 is VERY VERY underolling at 400-500 kph range. The uber roll at <200 kph is in fact a disadvantage for FW since is incredbly easy to loose it.

OldMan____
11-02-2005, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by JG5_UnKle:
Yep, I was not having a good day http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

To be honest I don't have real "trouble" with the matchup as the speed difference is the major factor.

I pretty much only ever fly COOPs (DF servers are for warmups!) and the quality of Spit pilots is good. The main squad I fly against are dedicated Spit pilots, they know their a/c very well and are leagues ahead of the average dogfight crowd.

Usually our fights are 4vs or up to 12vs12 so I know what it is like in a harsh environment for both teams.

And Neal I agree - in real life http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif it's just the low-speed climb thingy that gets on my tits.

The glass isn't half-empty though Faust, the glass is just too big http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

back when I used to fly online wars (not aymore since that stupid exploit/cheat on gunnery change destroied it) I used to face Spit flyers smart enough to let the less smart spits dive first to make FW get to deck where he cannot dive anymore.


FW usually are safe when they have 2km under their belly.

The high speed climb is somethign I have used several times but to make a Spit folow me into my territory taking enough time to call for reinforcments. When we are at 4k near my base.. and my felows at 2-2,5k I dive bringging spit to ground again where it is just a target to other blue.

JG5_UnKle
11-02-2005, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by OldMan____:
FW usually are safe when they have 2km under their belly.


Word!

Most of our fights actually begin at 7000-9000M so it isn't normally a problem. We usually set a hard deck of say 5000M, unless someone is in trouble then we don't go below it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

OldMan___
11-02-2005, 10:27 AM
Well I never considered flying above 5k ina FW to be agood idea. It looses too much of its power. Usually I keep at 4-5 km range.. never above 5500m

JG5_UnKle
11-02-2005, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by OldMan___:
Well I never considered flying above 5k ina FW to be agood idea. It looses too much of its power. Usually I keep at 4-5 km range.. never above 5500m

Depends on your opponents. I know that the Spit team I'm up against will climb like crazy.

I wold rather be at 7000M with the spits down at 5000M http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Without excess alt in the 190 you are dead - no escape zone. We always try and maintain either:

2000M Alt advantage or 2km+ Horizontal separation.

But the Fw-190 can fly just fine at 6000M and it is quite fast there, best rated speed IIRC.

Of course it depends on your opponent. If we are up against SpitIX with high-alt rated engines then we would drag the fight down to 3000M and tackle them there.

Low alt spits, drag them up at high speed to 6000M for drag n bag fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The Dora is a different story http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

OldMan___
11-03-2005, 07:52 AM
In fact I don't agree with the statement that FW without E advantage cannto win. It just need to have lots of E.. it does nto matter if enemy has it also. Because it is one of the best flyers at high E level and one of the worst at low E level. I managed to shot LOTS os spits that come on mye whiel THEY have E advantage, as long as I also have at least 2km above ground for maneuvering.

JG5_UnKle
11-03-2005, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by OldMan___:
In fact I don't agree with the statement that FW without E advantage cannto win. It just need to have lots of E.. it does nto matter if enemy has it also. Because it is one of the best flyers at high E level and one of the worst at low E level. I managed to shot LOTS os spits that come on mye whiel THEY have E advantage, as long as I also have at least 2km above ground for maneuvering.

Fair enough - different strokes for different folks I guess http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I probably belong in the paranoid section, not one to go in without a big alt advantage I guess http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif but I don't have problems with it and I think it is one of the easiest aircraft to be successful in (i.e. Firepower, Survivability) if flown with discipline.

vanjast
11-06-2005, 11:23 AM
I THINK to fly mainly on 'E' is a sign of an inferior pilot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. I've done most of my on-line kills flying my FW 50m above the ground at approx 150 Kph.
Why, because the FW is a dream to fly like this. A test of nerves and flying ability. Do you know your plane ?? One mistake and there's a big hole in the ground.

A few titbits....
While you're all weaving above stall speed, bank right, pull hard on the stick, and wall the throttle ??? Yep the baby just glides sideways under torque and propwash and starts to climb. The P-51, Spits, LA-7 and Yak3 have a very difficult time mirroring this and invariably stall, if not they'll be at a dis-advantage for the next round of pot-shots and the FW has the fire power...guess who wins !! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TAGERT.
11-06-2005, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Mad_Moses:
I fly the FWs as much as anyone, after reading some of the posts about it; I would like to give some of my thoughts on the new FW modeling.

Damage modeling;
With all things considered I think it is very good. It still can absorde damage better than most aircraft. Comparing what all the weopeans can do for both sides I really think the damage modeling is very good across the board for all the aircraft. I think they did a good job with this patch in regard to damage model.

Flight characteristics:
Here I have a bit of problem with the 190s. Once again, generally across the board they did a very nice job with all the aircraft. I like the "fly by wire" feel of all the planes. It seems more realistic to me.

As for the 190A & D models I am a little disappointed in some of the flight characteristics.

The biggest problem is the initial turn ability, especially at higher speeds. In 4.01 I would come up behind a slower more maneuverable enemy aircraft like a Spitfire. I would wait for them to make their brake turn to one side or the other and with the 190's superior roll rate I could roll inside their turn for and broad side them, in essence out turn them for a 1/4 turn. Now it is imposable to do this maneuver with the directional instability and the way the aircraft bucks and kicks when you try to roll into a turn.

This is the fundamental advantage the FW has over every other aircraft but it can't be employed effectively any longer.

Speed retention is very poor. High speed slashing and rolling maneuvers just result in excessive buffing and loss of airspeed while the Allied aircraft do not experience this problem. The Ta-152 is still good in this department but the A & D models are very lacking.

The FWs are also trimmed to fly at slower speeds now, about 100kph slower, than they were in 4.01. High speed engagements result in more buffeting and shooting inaccuracy.

Dive characteristic have also been curtailed in the 190s. You€re not going to be able to dive away from too many enemy aircraft. Terminal dive speed on the A model is only about 840kph and it reaches that speed much slower than most of the Allied aircraft. They will gobble you right up.

It's a real challenge to fly the 190 against it contemporaries on the other side. If you go into a fight on equal terms or less, you have few options open to you to win or disengage from that fight.

Regards,
MM I dont know about all that, but, one thing I did notice in my roll-rate testing is the Fw190 got a raw deal. First off, it rolls too good at slow speeds.. around 180?/sec instead of 160?/sec, and this peak happens at ~200mph not the 260mph. Some may see this as an advantage, I dont, I see it making the Fw190 too responsive at slow speeds, thus making it *twitchy* and hard to control. But, that is not the real problem imho. The real proble is the Fw190 had one real advantage over other planes.. it's roll-rate at HIGH SPEEDS. The Fw190 does have the best roll-rate in the game, but, it does not happen at high speeds, it happens at low speeds, worse yet, the Fw190 had a roll-rate advantage over the P51B from 0mph to 360mph, but, in this game the P51B actully starts rolling FASTER than the 190 at speeds greater than 250mph! All in all, one of the BEST things about the Fw190 is not being applied in this game, which make applying real-world tattics hard, if not imposable, to do.

OldMan___
11-07-2005, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by vanjast:
I THINK to fly mainly on 'E' is a sign of an inferior pilot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. I've done most of my on-line kills flying my FW 50m above the ground at approx 150 Kph.
Why, because the FW is a dream to fly like this. A test of nerves and flying ability. Do you know your plane ?? One mistake and there's a big hole in the ground.

A few titbits....
While you're all weaving above stall speed, bank right, pull hard on the stick, and wall the throttle ??? Yep the baby just glides sideways under torque and propwash and starts to climb. The P-51, Spits, LA-7 and Yak3 have a very difficult time mirroring this and invariably stall, if not they'll be at a dis-advantage for the next round of pot-shots and the FW has the fire power...guess who wins !! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Can anyone even think in a maneuver more risky than this one in a FW ? :P

ZG77_Nagual
11-07-2005, 08:25 AM
Yeah, but it really throws em when you do it. I've loved flying the 190 slow with alot of flaps ever since it appeared in the simm.

Viper2005_
11-07-2005, 09:31 AM
vanjast,



A Superior Pilot uses his Superior Judgement to avoid the exercise of his Superior Skill.

(An old flight safety poster).

You might be very good at BFM, but if 6 more bandits turn up and you're fighting at 150 km/h on the deck, you have no reasonable chance of disengaging.

Eventually superior numbers will overwhelm your superior skill, you'll run out of luck and you'll get killed.

As an energy fighter I have a much greater scope for disengagement if things turn nasty.



Always leave yourself a way out

(Chuck Yeager)

Being good is nice; being alive is better. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG5_UnKle
11-07-2005, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by TAGERT.:
I dont know about all that, but, one thing I did notice in my roll-rate testing is the Fw190 got a raw deal. First off, it rolls too good at slow speeds.. around 180?/sec instead of 160?/sec, and this peak happens at ~200mph not the 260mph. Some may see this as an advantage, I dont, I see it making the Fw190 too responsive at slow speeds, thus making it *twitchy* and hard to control. But, that is not the real problem imho. The real proble is the Fw190 had one real advantage over other planes.. it's roll-rate at HIGH SPEEDS. The Fw190 does have the best roll-rate in the game, but, it does not happen at high speeds, it happens at low speeds, worse yet, the Fw190 had a roll-rate advantage over the P51B from 0mph to 360mph, but, in this game the P51B actully starts rolling FASTER than the 190 at speeds greater than 250mph! All in all, one of the BEST things about the Fw190 is not being applied in this game, which make applying real-world tattics hard, if not imposable, to do.

Agree 100%

Ratsack
11-09-2005, 07:24 AM
I€ve been flying the late model FW190As on line a bit lately, and (with my usual disclaimer that I am a cr@ppy pilot) I find them very competitive. Against Spitfire IXs and La7s, I€m finding I can usually get a nasty burst of heavy fire on them that leaves them vulnerable for the next pass. In fact, tonight I got two La7s while the usual suspects were still busy whining about the La7 being a clown wagon. Shut phuck up and get on with getting a guns solution, I say. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I am not a points player, and the relevance of this is that my opinion is not coloured by the need to have the enemy in a million pieces on the first burst of fire. In that context, I find the FW190A very good. It€s not uncommon for some Bf109 driver with a Mk108 in the nose to finish the kill. For me, this is not a problem, so long as the bandit is down. It may annoy the point hounds. Horses for courses.

I am also finding that I get a few kills with snap shots of targets under the nose. Here I€m laying a sheet of lead in front of the bandit and letting him fly through it. I wouldn€t bother in a 109 (which I rarely fly anyway), but with four 20 mm and a lot of ammo, it€s worth the effort. A better forward view would be good, but we all know that€s going to happen just after Hell freezes over...

The high speed of the A8 and A9 means I can usually disengage if I don€t like the odds. I will not willingly take on three Spits on my own, but that€s realistic, in my view.

Main points of advantage are:

1. Good speed;
2. Great dive;
3. enormous firepower, with a lot of ammo;
4. terrific roll at most speeds; and
5. Good acceleration at high speed.

The climb is not as bad as some make out. Try doing a stepped climb, with speeds between 500 km/h and 320 km/h. It€s not a Bf109K, but it gets up there OK. Once you€re at 20,000 ft, the Spits better look out.

Main tips:
1. don€t let your speed in combat get below 320 km/h; and
2. like Scalps says, fly it like you€re scared€¦ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

For what it€s worth.

Ratsack

PS €" I love the Spitfire.
PPS €" I hate the Mk108 gun. Ban it€¦
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

faustnik
11-09-2005, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Ratsack:

The high speed of the A8 and A9 means I can usually disengage if I don€t like the odds. I will not willingly take on three Spits on my own, but that€s realistic, in my view.

Main points of advantage are:

1. Good speed;
2. Great dive;
3. enormous firepower, with a lot of ammo;
4. terrific roll at most speeds; and
5. Good acceleration at high speed.


Good post RatSack! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif It's all right there! The Fw190A8 vs. the Spit IX +18 is a good fight. The A9 should be paired up with the Spit IX +25. Maybe in the addon? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

vanjast
11-09-2005, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
vanjast, Being good is nice; being alive is better. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sorry I've been away for a few days...
Yes I agree with you on a 6-1 story - here you 'just get outa there'.

It all might start in a big furball, but sooner or later it'll be 1-1 or 2-1 (more is a bit problematic) and you can play around like this.
Wall'ng the throttle can give you such a nice roll as well as zeroing it. Just applying a bit of opposite rudder to prevent a stall.

One does get hit, and I've been hammered many a time. 90% of the time I get back to base with some spectacular landings (half the aircraft here, the other half there....)

No other plane will do IMHO...