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XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 07:07 AM
Don't you think it lowered too much after the patches?They are so ineffectve!I made a mission before the patch 20 stukas and some he-110's bombing a harbor.I put there the marat,3 aurora and about 30 85mm and 25mm AA.Before the patch at least 10 stukas and one or two He's downed but after the patch 1.11 none of them downed,all landed succesfully.So what do you think?Am i very lucky?

Message Edited on 11/01/0306:16AM by RakGitarMen

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 07:07 AM
Don't you think it lowered too much after the patches?They are so ineffectve!I made a mission before the patch 20 stukas and some he-110's bombing a harbor.I put there the marat,3 aurora and about 30 85mm and 25mm AA.Before the patch at least 10 stukas and one or two He's downed but after the patch 1.11 none of them downed,all landed succesfully.So what do you think?Am i very lucky?

Message Edited on 11/01/0306:16AM by RakGitarMen

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 07:40 AM
I thought the AAA was too innacurate, until I played WWII Online. As a flak gunner I wasn't able to hit anything more than 100 meters away.

As well, historical figures show that hundreds, if not thousands, of heavy AA shells are fired for each plane downed.

Though the flak might seem stupid, I think its more realistic that the previous super gunners.

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 08:04 AM
You're still able to drag enemy AI through deadly AAA around airfields though... That has saved my Bf109 from the I-16 lots of times...

rgds

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 08:48 AM
yes but how the heck 15 25mm AAA can't shoot down any plane?

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 10:44 AM
They still can, much depends on speed, altitude and angles. The higher up you are, the more spread and the less hits. The faster you are, the more error appears in the lead applied by the AI. The more you are flying across the field of fire rather than towards or away, the more error appears.

I've seen plenty of fighters & bombers downed by the 1.1 AA, but they've usually been low, slow or both. Plus the odd lucky 88 hit damaging an engine or something.


RakGitarMen wrote:
- yes but how the heck 15 25mm AAA can't shoot down
- any plane?

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 05:10 PM
I'd agree that AAA is quite severely under-done in v1.11 now. In 1.0 there was some odd behavior from AAA where large guns [85/88mm] could take a plane down instantly as soon as it entered firing range. I personally thought that the general skill level of AA, other than that one 'feature', was otherwise quite good.

One of the negatives of Oleg listening to whines - people were literally complaining that they couldn't take down battleships and destroyers by themselves in these forums. It's quite easy to do now. A nice silly test is to see how much of the mini-fleet in the QMB Crimea map you can take down by yourself in various planes. I found it quite easy to take a flight of 4 Ju87-G1's up and sink the whole thing.

Does anyone remember how many times the LW tried to sink the [stationary!] Marat and failed and what their sortied aircraft/losses were trying to do it?


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XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 09:08 PM
RakGitarMen wrote:
- Don't you think it lowered too much after the
- patches?They are so ineffectve!I made a mission
- before the patch 20 stukas and some he-110's bombing
- a harbor.I put there the marat,3 aurora and about 30
- 85mm and 25mm AA.Before the patch at least 10 stukas
- and one or two He's downed but after the patch 1.11
- none of them downed,all landed succesfully.So what
- do you think?Am i very lucky?
Don't know what your talking about. I set up a mission with 8 Emils attacking an airfield with 2 25mm AAA and 1 85. I always lose at least 3 of them. In reality, one at most should get killed.

The AAA is fine. In fact too accurate.

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XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 10:58 PM
Uh they are still snipers, particularly heavy flak.. light flak is about right now imo, meaning they cant harm you if you make few quick passes.. but the slower you fly and the longer you stay over ligth flak the more you jeopardize your self..

Heavy flak, on the other hand, has blown up my tiny 109 on altitude of 7000 m with only one hit.. heavy flak should be progressivily downgraged their hit percentage, higher you are the less misses heavy flak shoots.. at the moment it does not make a difference, what altitude you are flying.. heavy flak will eventually hit you anyway. This I greatly dislike..

____________________________________



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XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 11:07 PM
Low altitudes AA is quite deadly
From 2000m on it can't hit anything

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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 12:51 PM
Vipez- wrote:
- Uh they are still snipers, particularly heavy flak..
- light flak is about right now imo, meaning they cant
- harm you if you make few quick passes..

This is the problem, though.

Small AA pieces will never hit you on the first run through, or so it seems. Unless you're talking about a target with 10+ pieces of small AA, supression is now largely a waste of time. Even the quad-20mm pieces are lucky to land a single shot on an attacker before being taken out in 1.11.

Your comments about the heavy flak are interesting to me - I've been building missions with 1.11 for quite some time now, and I've found that unless I seriously cover a target in flak [30+ pieces of 85/88] then even a small force of bombers will continue through unmolested. Fuel leaks or engine smokes at worst. It also seems to me as though the blast radius of heavy flak has been toned down as well - it seems that unless an explosion occurs within ~2m of a plane then it's going to continue forth without severe damage.

I keep 1.1b, 1.11, 1.2a and 1.0 changeable through backed up files, and the results of running the exact same mission file [bombers on any given target vs AAA] vary quite a lot between 1.0 and later versions. To my mind 1.0 produced results much more in keeping with pilot accounts and historical losses of Il-2s and other ground attack planes.

When I get some more free time I might do some basic hit/loss logging between versions. At a guesstimate I'd say we're talking about 1.0 producing about 20% more losses and about 40% more 'damaged' planes compared to a similar run in 1.11. It annoys me a great deal because adding in more AA pieces to a large mission can really knock the crap out of framerate, especially if you're talking about having to double the number of tracer spewing small cal 20/25mm pieces.

I've found that the Nimrod and ZSU-37 are now by far the best AA pieces in the game - they seem to actually have around the same hit probability over time as the smaller stuff, and when they hit, it hurts.



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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 12:59 PM
I have to agree that heavy flak is now slightly too inneffective. It was way too effective straight out of the box though.
Light flak does pretty much what I'd expect of it, but the heavy stuff is little more than eye candy IMO.

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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 01:09 PM
clint-ruin wrote:
- Vipez- wrote:
-- Uh they are still snipers, particularly heavy flak..
-- light flak is about right now imo, meaning they cant
-- harm you if you make few quick passes..
-
- This is the problem, though.
-
- Small AA pieces will never hit you on the
- first run through, or so it seems. Unless you're
- talking about a target with 10+ pieces of small AA,
- supression is now largely a waste of time. Even the
- quad-20mm pieces are lucky to land a single shot on
- an attacker before being taken out in 1.11.
-
- Your comments about the heavy flak are interesting
- to me - I've been building missions with 1.11 for
- quite some time now, and I've found that unless I
- seriously cover a target in flak [30+ pieces of
- 85/88] then even a small force of bombers will
- continue through unmolested. Fuel leaks or engine
- smokes at worst. It also seems to me as though the
- blast radius of heavy flak has been toned down as
- well - it seems that unless an explosion occurs
- within ~2m of a plane then it's going to continue
- forth without severe damage.
-


That is just mine, and few of my friend's impression.. we play in VEF; and I have died quite a few times in my 109 on high altitudes by direct flak hit.. not to mention heavy Flak hitting and jamming my weapons at such altitudes.. I just think heavy flak is much more dangerous than light flak.. heavy flak scoring hits to small, fast moving fighters at 7km altitude just beats me.. If there would be a formation of TB-3s flying slow, then i would understan.. Speed seems not to distract heavy flak.. they will hit you anyway. Maybe it is just me and my bad luck.



____________________________________



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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 02:27 PM
-
- That is just mine, and few of my friend's
- impression.. we play in VEF; and I have died quite a
- few times in my 109 on high altitudes by direct
- flak hit.. not to mention heavy Flak hitting and
- jamming my weapons at such altitudes.. I just think
- heavy flak is much more dangerous than light flak..
- heavy flak scoring hits to small, fast moving
- fighters at 7km altitude just beats me.. If there
- would be a formation of TB-3s flying slow, then i
- would understan.. Speed seems not to distract heavy
- flak.. they will hit you anyway. Maybe it is just me
- and my bad luck.

I don't know how exactly the heavy flak is handled online. But one suggestion I could come up with is that if the flak is generated server side, and uses the same algorithm to do 'near misses' of a target that it uses for offline play - and that target position is effected by lag - it seems like this could influence hit probability. Does anyone know if the 'net position prediction code is fed into the AA position prediction code?

It would surprise me if it could make hits more likely than less, but it's something to consider.

I think that the AA 'fix' could have been a lot better implemented with a bit more forethought and work. Rather than just blindly turning the accuracy down, it would have been nice to implement, say:

a) AI jinking on flak contact rather than all kinds of planes at any skill level flying straight on blindly
b) settable skill levels for AA positions, along the lines of those for plane pilot skill
c) increasing the number of flights for DGen for bombing runs or adding in a flight with rockets / AO-10s / AB-250s for flak supression for flights that are likely to contact heavy flak.

Which a few other people were suggesting, but I think it probably got lost in the OLEG TEH FLAK IS 2 ACCURATE FIX PLZ KTHNX flood of posts.

DGen did get a small fix of making flights less likely to encounter flak positions, though, which I thought was pretty good work.

Guess the whiners got their wish though - it's now pretty easy to sink any given ship, even Niobe AAA ships or the Marat, all by your lonesome. Hooray.


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XyZspineZyX
11-02-2003, 06:07 PM
I thought maybe you want to try this out

http://www.geocities.com/rakgitarmen/resim/Darbe.zip

In real life it is nearly impossible to survive this mission.