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XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 12:05 PM
Ok, I must admit that for me the Russian weapons are overmodelled. So I made a comparison between the MGFF, MG151/15, MG151/20, MK103, MK108, ShVAK and NS-23. I used the momentum(ability to produce force, in german "impuls") of their projectiles. It is calculated by multiplying the weight of the round with its initial speed. so, here is the data i obtained:

Type:
1 MGFF:
2 MG151/15
3 MG151/20
4 MK108
5 MK103
6 ShVAK
7 NS-23

Speed m/s

1 700
2 1040
3 790
4 520
5 860
6 800
7 690

Weight(g) of projectile

1 134
2 72
3 115
4 330
5 330(not sure)
6 96
7 200

Momentum(Ns)

1 93.8
2 74.88
3 90.85
4 171.6
5 283.8
6 76.8
7 138

MG151/20 has 18.294271 % greater momentum compared to ShVAK

ShVAK has 2.564102% greater momentum compared with MG151/15. At the same time its areawhich is subject to contact when hitting is 314mm sq. (pi was approximated to 3.14). Mg151/15 has area of 176.625 mm sq.

That is 77.777778 % greater area of projectile (less is better/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) any comments? seems to me that the Mg151/15 was a real penetrator... PK tool



http://home.wanadoo.nl/wana.mail1/Op****/WurgerwhinerLogo.jpg

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

Message Edited on 06/30/03 06:42PM by Ankanor

Message Edited on 06/30/03 06:42PM by Ankanor

Message Edited on 06/30/03 06:42PM by Ankanor

Message Edited on 06/30/0306:53PM by Ankanor

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 12:05 PM
Ok, I must admit that for me the Russian weapons are overmodelled. So I made a comparison between the MGFF, MG151/15, MG151/20, MK103, MK108, ShVAK and NS-23. I used the momentum(ability to produce force, in german "impuls") of their projectiles. It is calculated by multiplying the weight of the round with its initial speed. so, here is the data i obtained:

Type:
1 MGFF:
2 MG151/15
3 MG151/20
4 MK108
5 MK103
6 ShVAK
7 NS-23

Speed m/s

1 700
2 1040
3 790
4 520
5 860
6 800
7 690

Weight(g) of projectile

1 134
2 72
3 115
4 330
5 330(not sure)
6 96
7 200

Momentum(Ns)

1 93.8
2 74.88
3 90.85
4 171.6
5 283.8
6 76.8
7 138

MG151/20 has 18.294271 % greater momentum compared to ShVAK

ShVAK has 2.564102% greater momentum compared with MG151/15. At the same time its areawhich is subject to contact when hitting is 314mm sq. (pi was approximated to 3.14). Mg151/15 has area of 176.625 mm sq.

That is 77.777778 % greater area of projectile (less is better/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) any comments? seems to me that the Mg151/15 was a real penetrator... PK tool



http://home.wanadoo.nl/wana.mail1/Op****/WurgerwhinerLogo.jpg

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

Message Edited on 06/30/03 06:42PM by Ankanor

Message Edited on 06/30/03 06:42PM by Ankanor

Message Edited on 06/30/03 06:42PM by Ankanor

Message Edited on 06/30/0306:53PM by Ankanor

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 12:46 PM
Weapon comparison is a very difficult matter, you have to take into account LOADs of parameters, most of which are hard to obtain. For example, with 20mm and over, a large, if not most part of the destruction is created by the explosives inside... but again, that depends on a load of factors, weight of explosive charge, type of explosives, effiency of exlosives ability to make damage (lot of energy is wasted by bad fuses, on breaking up the shell body, and its never 100% effiency..). KE is also complicated, theres velocity loss with range, type of material, the amount of "useful" destruction work unknown etc... Then there`s the makeup of the belt, how many inc, how many AP, HE etc... For a good, though somewhat basic comparison, you should try Tony Williams website article.


http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 02:15 PM
last night I shot down 7 (seven) IL-2I in QMB in the oldest Yak-1 type armed with 20mm + 2x7,62mm. Try to repeat it in 109F-4... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif and yes, F4 has more ammo than Yak..

-------------

"The picture repeats itself when operations, which began with great intent and local successes, degenerated into senseless, wild hammering at fixed front-line positions once they encounter initial heavy losses and unforeseen situations. This incomprehensible phenomenon appears again and again. But, even in extremis, the Russian is never logical; he falls back on his natural instinct, and the nature of the Russian is to use mass, steamroller tactics, and adherence to given objectives without regard to changing situations."

German 9th Army report after repulsing the Soviet offensive "Mars" in Rzhev bulge, December 1942.

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 02:43 PM
From what The Spirits /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif tell me, the upcoming patch will finally cure the impotence of 20mm cannons for good. Let`s hope so this stays this way.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

ZG77_Nagual
06-30-2003, 03:05 PM
This will 'fix' the 190 - in my humble opinion


http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 03:19 PM
What me bugs is the UB 12,7mm Machine gun. Check:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

ShKAS Muzzle velocity (m/s): 870
UBS Muzzle velocity (m/s): 860

(UBS bullet weighs ~5 times the ShKAS bullet weighs which gives more punch... but not more speed)

So obviously their bullets travel ~ same as fast.
Now take a MiG-3ud or AM-38, which has both these gun types installed, switch to external and pan 2 clicks to the side so you look at the plane's 3 or 9 and zoom out. Now shoot both weapons at the same time. It obviously looks like the white UBS tracers are twice as fast as the green ShKAS tracers. This would explain it all: High range PK (I speak of 800m+) from dead six, even more high range hits (up to ~2400m) and UB's relatively high damage inflicted @ high range compared to .50 and MG 131.

I already mentioned it here, but in addition of the NS-37 which also has a big range. Too bad Oleg only answered about the NS which was right according to him. No word about that 12,7 MG /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif .


<hr>

<p align=center style="width:100%; filter:glow[color=#33CCFF, strength=2)">

<img src=http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/willey110.jpg border=0 alt="Hier geht's zur I/JG78"> (http://www.jg78.de)

Reduced sig due to word filter</p><font color=59626B>

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 06:31 PM
You are right, but when you consider weapons with almost equal speeds, but with some 20% greater weight (I mean compare the MG151/20 and SHvaK) equal caliber, you must have equal resistance forces acting on them. Which leadsto the fact that german weapon has more damage. bad fuses and such stuff are not modeled, btw

Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- Weapon comparison is a very difficult matter, you
- have to take into account LOADs of parameters, most
- of which are hard to obtain. For example, with 20mm
- and over, a large, if not most part of the
- destruction is created by the explosives inside...
- but again, that depends on a load of factors, weight
- of explosive charge, type of explosives, effiency of
- exlosives ability to make damage (lot of energy is
- wasted by bad fuses, on breaking up the shell body,
- and its never 100% effiency..). KE is also
- complicated, theres velocity loss with range, type
- of material, the amount of "useful" destruction work
- unknown etc... Then there`s the makeup of the belt,
- how many inc, how many AP, HE etc... For a good,
- though somewhat basic comparison, you should try
- Tony Williams website article.
-
-
- <img
- src="http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-deskt
- opweb.jpg">
- 'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'
-
- Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
- (Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto
- of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)
-
- Flight tests and other aviation data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim
-





http://home.wanadoo.nl/wana.mail1/Op****/WurgerwhinerLogo.jpg

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 06:54 PM
In the initial post you compared only momentum (mass*velocity.) I believe kinetic energy is more important = 1/2 mass * velocity squared for determining impact (neglecting explosive load here.) Oleg posted the following table of info:


Author:
Oleg_Maddox
Rank:
Creator of IL-2
Sturmovik
Date:
08/14/02 12:56PM



Here is the direct table of shells and bullets from source code of IL-2.
Comments:

power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells).

T - Tracer bullet
AP - Armor-Piercing bullet
APT - Armor-Piercing with Tracer
API - Armor-Piercing Incendary
APIT - Armor-Piercing Incendary Tracer
HE - High-Explosive shell
HEI - High-Explosive Incendary shell
HET - High-Explosive with Tracer
HEIT - High-Explosive Incendary Tracer
MG - M-Geschoss, thin-shell High Explosive

such line destinated the sequence of shells/bullets:
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API


Table itself.
==========================


Browning .303
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API

API/APIT
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0.0018

AP
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0

Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148

Hispano-Suiza Mk.I
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.129
speed = 860.0
power = 0.012

AP
mass = 0.124
speed = 860.0
power = 0

M4
// HET - (APT/HET)

HET
mass = 0.604
speed = 612.0
power = 0.044

MG 131
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.035
speed = 710.0
power = 0.00148

AP
mass = 0.034
speed = 750.0
power = 0

MG 15
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.0128
speed = 760.0
power = 0

MG 151
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.057
speed = 960.0
power = 0.0019

AP
mass = 0.072
speed = 859.0
power = 0

MG 151/20
// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG
APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 710.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 705.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 775.0
power = 0.0186

MG 17
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 810.0
power = 0

MG 81
// AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 920.0
power = 0

MG/FF
// APIT - HE - HE - MG

APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 580.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 585.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 690.0
power = 0.0186

MK 103
// APT - MG - MG - HE

APT
mass = 0.502
speed = 752.0
power = 0.0

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 900.0
power = 0.072

HE
mass = 0.455
speed = 800.0
power = 0.024

MK 108
// HEIT - MG

HEIT
mass = 0.455
speed = 500.0
power = 0.024

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 525.0
power = 0.072

NS-37
// HEIT - APT

HEIT
mass = 0.735
speed = 900.0
power = 0.0406

APT
mass = 0.760
speed = 880.0
power = 0

NS-45
// HEIT - AP

HEIT
mass = 1.065
speed = 780.0
power = 0.052

AP
mass = 1.000
speed = 850.0
power = 0.0

PaK40
// HEIT

HEIT
mass = 6.800
speed = 770.0
power = 0.680

ShKAS
// APIT - API - T - API

APIT
mass = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0.0005

API
mass = 0.0096
speed = 871.0
power = 0.0005

T
massa = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0

ShVAK
// APIT - HE

APIT
mass = 0.096
speed = 800.0
power = 0.001

HE
mass = 0.0676
speed = 800.0
power = 0.0068

UBS / UBT
// APIT - AP - HEI

APIT
mass = 0.0448
speed = 850.0
power = 0.001

AP
mass = 0.051
speed = 850.0
power = 0

HEI
mass = 0.0428
speed = 850.0
power = (0.00114+0.00128)

VYa
// SIT - API - API

SIT
mass = 0.195
speed = 890.0
power = 0.0156

API
mass = 0.201
speed = 890.0
power = 0.008

API
mass = 0.201
speed = 890.0
power = 0.008


-------------

If you'll ask why some bullets has TNT, its because they had explosive in warhead.



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 07:33 PM
Kinetic is mass x velocity squared, not 1/2.

Maybe you are thinking of movement due to acceleration?
position = start + time x ( start velocity + accel / 2 )

Kinetic Energy is the best measure of penetrating power while momentum is the best measure of knockdown power.

Explosive energy varies greatly with where the explosion takes place. Inside the planes there is a distance away from the skin where the shock will reinforce itself and create a big hole but it varies with the force of the charge and shell design.

Incendiary spray is still more, it can melt aluminum as well as ignite fuel. Japanese Zeroes actually lit up the magnesium skin (was the frames also magnesium?) and one way to tell historic film from recreation is if one goes down burning does it look like a huge bright flare?

Fragments are another thing altogether. The spin of the shell can cause the spray to have one side with lots of fragments while the other does not if it goes off hitting a surface at much of a tangent. I knew one man who lived through a rocket attack only because the rocket hit to the side where it did, so only his chin was blown off. The ground absorbed the fragments that would have otherwise killed him. Same could go for a wing absorbing fragments that might otherwise hit the pilot if you hit one wing instead of the other. I really, really doubt that IL2 has that level of simulation, the fragments act like the shells are not spinning.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
06-30-2003, 09:49 PM
My view to this discussion..

I have recorded several tracks, in which I fly some russian/allied planes, and the F2 model of BF-109. Here are the track files:

http://www.tpu.fi/~t1akeski/F2-MG.trk
http://www.tpu.fi/~t1akeski/HurriMk2-MG.trk
http://www.tpu.fi/~t1akeski/P47-MG.trk
http://www.tpu.fi/~t1akeski/Yak1-MG.trk

All track files consist of plain MG usage. No cannons applied. Target planes are SB-103 bombers.

http://www.tpu.fi/~t1akeski/VVS-MG.trk (Yak 1 again)

This last track is most oppressing: six SB-103 bombers with PURE MG fire. Seventh one with cannon fire, and eight by ramming it. How would the result be if I had had a wingman ? 16 bombers ? Nice...

Also, according to the object viewer, the Yak-1 has only one MG. However, I see two muzzle flashes when firing my MGs. No, I am not firing the cannon, see the track for yourself, if you don't believe me.

From what I can gather, either the russian weaponry is overpowerful (Think about I-153, it has four of these MGs), or then the german ones are seriously undermined.

I can understand the reason for this. Oleg made this game mostly for offline players. Most of these offline players are russian. Of course, wouldn't it be daunting & dangerous if the german weapons actually damaged you while flying ? Wouldn't that remove potential customers because they get shot down so easily ? (Yes, this was sarcasm, and evil at that. No flaming, please.)

On the VVS planes, first hit scares you, second hit warns you, third hit should ring caution bells, fourth hit MUST ring those bells, fifth hit causes a minor fuel leak (because you didn't obey the bells), sixth hit might damage your controls, seventh hit should cause some engine problems, and eight hit forces you to RTB. Luckily, the Mig-3 is a clear exception to this rule. In that, the damage sustained actually hurts something.

On comparison, the german planes... First hit rips your controls, second hit causes a fuel leak, third hit lits the engine, fourth hit kills your pilot. Occasionally, the first hit gets the PK, already..

Consider the fact, that even two or three 7.62 caliber hits to a WW2 fighter, and you already have a serious disadvantage. Those things are not made to collect stray bullets. They don't move fast for no reason...

So, if all planes would have their damage scaled according to the BF-109, we would have a much more realistic simulation. Sadly, I believe this is not going to happen anytime soon.

WWMaxGunz wrote:
-
- Kinetic is mass x velocity squared, not 1/2.
-

I don't know where you got your physics education in, but the formula for calculating and object's kinetic energy is

E = (1/2)*m*v^2

This formula is taken from my "University Physics, 10th edition" by Young & Freedman (Chapter 6-3, page 170). I happen to believe, for obvious reasons, that my book is correct in this matter, and that you are not. If you can prove otherwise, then I will nominate you for the next physics Nobel prize.. Happy hunting /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The kinetic energy an object has is translated to materia reformation, (distortion) and heat, upon impact. The bullet hitting the frame causes a small area of the frame (about the size of the bullet) to disform, and - if enough energy is applied - to rip off from the surface, causing a hole into the frame.

A hole in a plane's wing, even a small one, causes a flaw in the Bernoulli's equation, which is responsible for keeping to plane flying. Pressure difference between the upper and lower surface of the wing is reduced, thus the wing(s) generate less lift, and you must go faster in order to compensate.

-Celorfie



Message Edited on 06/30/0308:53PM by Celorfie

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 01:25 AM
WWMaxGunz wrote:
- Kinetic is mass x velocity squared, not 1/2.
-
- Maybe you are thinking of movement due to
- acceleration?
- position = start + time x ( start velocity + accel /
- 2 )


Nope, I was going by recollection. I checked my physics book and it clearly defines classic kinetic energy just as I wrote it. The 1/2 comes from the derivation. Not that it really matters since we are talking about relative values anyway. It can be dropped out of both sides of a ratio. The important part to the discussion is V squared.

Incidentally (and so that we don't have to go through another round of this), the expression is only valid for non-relativistic limits, when velocity is far less than the speed of light.

Relativistic kinetic energy = ((m * c squared) / square root (1 - velocity squared / c squared)) - m * c squared.

Where c = speed of light. As long as V/c is much less than 1 the classical definition is close enough. Since for the rounds in question the velocity ratio is about 1/300,000, we are on safe ground ignoring relativity.

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 02:09 AM
Celorfire, you must be joking, the FW-190 takes more punishment than ANY other plane in the game. The Macchi-202, Yak (any), Rata, and I-153 all take too much damage. It's not just VVS planes. I do agree that the weapons and damage modelling have some serious issues that will likely change/be fixed after patch. This problem is game-wide, not specific to Luftwaffe.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:00 AM
kyrule2 wrote:
- Celorfire, you must be joking, the FW-190 takes more
- punishment than ANY other plane in the game. The
- Macchi-202, Yak (any), Rata, and I-153 all take too
- much damage. It's not just VVS planes. I do agree
- that the weapons and damage modelling have some
- serious issues that will likely change/be fixed
- after patch. This problem is game-wide, not specific
- to Luftwaffe.
-

Well, the LW has one plane that is human flyable and can eat too much lead to be realistic. The VVS side has MANY MORE planes that can do the same ?

In the plain light of numerical difference, I would say this problem has a greater role on the VVS side, thus giving an unnecessary advantage. Besides, most FW-190 models are flying coffins, so you can hole'em up without much worry. Does it matter that they take severe punish to destroy ? Not really, as it is almost impossible to miss with the russian weaponry !

-Celorfie

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 06:08 PM
190's were renowned for their durability. They were built to be tough. The same cannot be said for many light maneuverable planes that take way too much punishment...

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 06:35 PM
Currently the FW-190 is much tougher than Sturmovik and P-47, that can't be right.

My point was that there are problems with the DM for both sides. I don't see VVS planes being too tough other than the ones I mentioned (Yaks, I-16, and I-153). Planes like La-5/7, Pe-2, Migs, DB-3, U-2, etc. go down fairly easy. Anyway, all this will likely be rectified in the patch, so no worries.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 07:20 PM
God lord, has these people ever tryed how much Yak the super russian wood plane eats lead? its astonishing and its engine said by oleg is only 20-30% more durable than BF109 engine.

Well anybody can test and how it goes, 1 bullet to bf109 engine black smoke engine dead. to yaks engine you can pour lead in it and little smoke puff thats all..

I have heard all stories which are ridicilous why Yak a light fighter can take as much punishment as some heavy planes like FW190..

1) its the wood that yaks have been made, made in other universe perhaps.

2) oh now its the bf109 alunium structure that is more vurneable to cannon rights..

3) no wait its yaks engine that has less critical points than bf109 engine..

Some crap flying in the air I say, it has taken over 1.5 years for oleg to get yak right. Sure it acts like its a light fighter , good manouvering but easy to shot down..

Well oleg did get second of these right..

But iam still confident, if the patch gets the 20mm cannons right.. I just worry will it mean that the yaks are easyer to down but you need to only shoot a cannon round into 109 direction and it goes blazing out of the sky ..

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 07:39 PM
That is my worry too, alarmer. 1 Shvak hit or a few of the uber Shkas lazers and the poor 109 will desintigrate... hopes im not right.



http://home.wanadoo.nl/wana.mail1/Op****/WurgerwhinerLogo.jpg

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 07:53 PM
I would like to ask where did oleg take his data from?





http://home.wanadoo.nl/wana.mail1/Op****/WurgerwhinerLogo.jpg

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 08:03 PM
What I found about the ShVAK

The cartridges have brass cases and a percussion primer. They are filled with 18,1g of tubed propellant 0,7x2. Shells have copper driving bands. HE shells are either fuzed with the K-6, A-20 or MG-3 nose fuze. The K-6 uses a setback force safety, while the A-20 uses a coiled band safety device. However, the A-20 is also found with a different safety device. Projectiles are blackened against corrosion, HE shells have red fuze tips, API shells black tips with red rings below. HEI-T shells have an additional green band above the driving band. However, colour marks were not consistently the practise. Cartridges are linked in desintegrating steel belts in 120 and 180 rounds quantities.
Ammunition for the sub caliber devices are maufactured in Russia and the Czech Republic.
Ammunition used during WWII:


USSR Designation US Abbreviation Bullet Weight [g] Muzzle Velocity [m/s] Description
OZ HEI 75,3 770 Nose fuze, 2,8g HE + 3,3g incediary
OZT HEI-T 75,8 770 Nose fuze, 2,8g HE + 3,3g incediary, tracer
OF HE-Frag. 67,6 790 Nose fuze, 6,7g HE, fragmentation grooves on shell
OFZ HEI-Frag. 68,3 790 Nose fuze, 0,8g HE + 3,8g incediary, fragmentation grooves on shell
BZ API-HC 96,0 750 Mild steel projectile case with hardened steel core, surrounded by 2,5g incendiary, screwed on aluminum, or bakelite ballistic cap. A third type with swaged steel cap exists as well
BZ API 96,0 750 Solid steel shot with incendiary in swaged steel cap
BZT API-T 96,0 750 As above but with tracer in base cavity
PU TP 68,3 790 Inert filled HEI shell with dummy fuze
PUT TP-T 68,0 790 Empty solid head projectile with swaged tracer in base cavity


here`s the link

http://www.geocities.com/russianammo/20mm.html

will do some more research about the MG151/20, MG151/15



http://home.wanadoo.nl/wana.mail1/Op****/WurgerwhinerLogo.jpg

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 08:12 PM
Currently the FW-190 is much tougher than Sturmovik and P-47, that can't be right.

Absolutely not agree, the P-47 is actually the thoughest a/c in FB.

edit: by far. It's possible the Jug could absorb 4 Mk108 hits without vissible effect. Try that to a 190. You'll notice some differences on weapons effectivness. Try to shoot VVS a/c while flying VVS a/c and you'll notice an remarkable increase of kills with the same amount of rounds. Also try to shoot a TB-3 with FW190 and then try the same thing flying the La-5FN or La-7. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


Kimura



Message Edited on 07/01/03 08:12PM by KIMURA

Message Edited on 07/01/0308:19PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 08:41 PM
S!

Without going into the debate of toughness various planes do have I present some info I kindly obtained from a few Russian friend's I have flying FB.

Russians did a series of tests where they tested the effect of different aircraft mounted weapons ranging from light calibre machine guns to the heavy hitting big cannons against their own and foreign aircraft. Gave some pretty interesting results /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Remember that these results are calculated average numbers straight from the test, so do not flame me.

For example: Yak-3 could take 1.4 hits of MG151/20 ammo from 60c. On a frontal attack it was a bit better, 1.6 hits. Compare to the game where U can pump the bugger with lead so it lits up like a X-mas tree without losing it's engine /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Also got some info of an interview they made with Russian ace Popkov. He commented 3-4 hits of ANY 20mm cannon was lethal to a fighter and most interesting part is that he had answered a question about the MK108's lethality...

Was asked how lethal it was and he had been quite surprised and saying that even the round exploded OUTSIDE the aircraft structure it was in MOST cases enough to bring the plane down and if it hit -> KABOOM! He had said 1 shot = 1 kill if hitting a fighter. VERY rare a plane could survive even the proximity blast...

But again..I won't take any stands before the patch is out and we finally see what is changed and how. Before that we can just speculate which is futile.



Flanker
Training/Tactics Officer
Lentolaivue 34
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/LLv34

"Let Chaos entwine on defensless soil"
-Dimmu Borgir-

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 09:18 PM
Damn! Ya got me... or should I say I got myself?

It's been too long on that one and you are 100% right.
I should have checked first, I usually do but just felt I knew.


Neal


RedHarvest wrote:
-
- WWMaxGunz wrote:
-- Kinetic is mass x velocity squared, not 1/2.
--
-- Maybe you are thinking of movement due to
-- acceleration?
-- position = start + time x ( start velocity + accel /
-- 2 )
-
-
- Nope, I was going by recollection. I checked my
- physics book and it clearly defines classic kinetic
- energy just as I wrote it. The 1/2 comes from the
- derivation. Not that it really matters since we are
- talking about relative values anyway. It can be
- dropped out of both sides of a ratio. The important
- part to the discussion is V squared.
-
- Incidentally (and so that we don't have to go
- through another round of this), the expression is
- only valid for non-relativistic limits, when
- velocity is far less than the speed of light.
-
- Relativistic kinetic energy = ((m * c squared) /
- square root (1 - velocity squared / c squared)) - m
- * c squared.
-
- Where c = speed of light. As long as V/c is much
- less than 1 the classical definition is close
- enough. Since for the rounds in question the
- velocity ratio is about 1/300,000, we are on safe
- ground ignoring relativity.
-
-

XyZspineZyX
07-01-2003, 10:14 PM
Yaks have much worse recoil than LW planes.



Message Edited on 07/01/0309:17PM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 03:55 AM
I say again, my point was there are problems with DM concerning planes from all sides, not just LW as some state. And the Mk-108 will be deadly again, I guarantee it. The bottom line is that the DM of many planes is goofed, and some weapons as well. This has been acknowledged by 1C/Maddox so there is nothing to do but wait.

And I strongly disagree, the P-47 is nowhere near as tough as FW-190. But we just disagree, its cool. And I remind you that I am not a Jug fan, and will likely be logging some serious hours in the Wurger after the patch. The more I read about this plane, the more respect I have for it. Namely in terms of versitility, quality of construction, and servicability.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg


Message Edited on 07/02/0302:57AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 02:37 PM
I also noticed that the 20mm Shvak in the Yak9D only needs a single hit to break the 109s fusalge into two. I tried it a couple of times, but its a regular effect. I dont know if this is a general error with the Shvak on all Soviet planes(i very rarely fly soviet types), or just on the yak9d, but it seems like a bug. No single 20mm shell can remove the whole rear fusalge with a single hit.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 08:23 PM
I remember in the IL2 i had a problem in the campaign, at Stalingrad, where I had to escort He111Z with Me321. Well, the leader constantly rammed the tow cable. In the end I tried damaging him, so he would return to base, so I aim at him and shoot a very short burst, I was very surprised when his wing broke off. After that I tried doing that to Yak in tha QMB(yak friendly) but I had to use 1/4 of my ammo. Did this 15 times...



http://home.wanadoo.nl/wana.mail1/Op****/WurgerwhinerLogo.jpg

"An attack against a unit of Flying Fortresses was something like controlled suicide...Sometimes 50, Sometimes 80 machine guns were firing at you... You attempted to close you eyes & continue to fire, Frightened to death, Frightened to death."

Oberst Johannes Steinhoff (176 kills)

1C Ankanor, Defender Of The Truth

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 11:58 PM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- I also noticed that the 20mm Shvak in the Yak9D only
- needs a single hit to break the 109s fusalge into
- two. I tried it a couple of times, but its a regular
- effect. I dont know if this is a general error with
- the Shvak on all Soviet planes(i very rarely fly
- soviet types), or just on the yak9d, but it seems
- like a bug. No single 20mm shell can remove the
- whole rear fusalge with a single hit.
-

A well aimed one (in the fuel tank which is in the rear fuselage on the 109) can, but if that's systematic, then yes, there is a problem.

I find this strange since yesterday, I had a puzzling experience with a Yak-9, I went behind a Fw-190A-5 and hit him with 9-10 20mm shells and a high number (I couldn't count them and forgot to save the track) of MG bullets in the rear fuselage, the guy continued flying like if almost nothing had happened /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif , showing very little damage (as if he had been hit by a single shell) and no difference in flying performances, I disengaged (no more ammo) and went back to home base thinking that next time, I would come with a Yak-9T.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 08:36 PM
nicli wrote:
-
- I find this strange since yesterday, I had a
- puzzling experience with a Yak-9, I went behind a
- Fw-190A-5 and hit him with 9-10 20mm shells and a
- high number (I couldn't count them and forgot to
- save the track) of MG bullets in the rear fuselage,
- the guy continued flying like if almost nothing had
- happened /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif , showing very little damage (as
- if he had been hit by a single shell) and no
- difference in flying performances, I disengaged (no
- more ammo) and went back to home base thinking that
- next time, I would come with a Yak-9T
-

Now you know how it feels to be a BF-pilot against I-153 or other 'super wood' planes..

If you ask me, one-two machine gun hits into the engine compartment should do the job UNLESS the plane has enhanced armor in those areas (as FW-190 has)..

It isn't supposed to be arcade, where people shoot a car with pistol and it explodes *sigh* /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

-Celorfie

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 08:44 PM
Celorfie wrote:
-
- If you ask me, one-two machine gun hits into the
- engine compartment should do the job UNLESS the
- plane has enhanced armor in those areas (as FW-190
- has)..
-
-

What 'enhanced armour' in the fw190?


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/west-battleline.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 08:55 PM
Celorfie wrote:
- Now you know how it feels to be a BF-pilot against
- I-153 or other 'super wood' planes..
-

On the same evening, I got two I-153 in a single head-on (one was a few tens of meters behind the other) pass with a Bf-109E-7 : one half second burst on each one and they went down in flames towards the ground : one, two, and that's all. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

On the other hand, I cannot say how it is when you are behind one of these little guys, because I never managed to get in that position. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-06-2003, 09:01 PM
About the DM of the 190A, it seems there's a point (a little behind the pilot) where you can hit him with anything (at least from above) from a Shkas bullet to a 37mm shell without disturbing him even a little, or provoking any visible effects.