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View Full Version : Russian La-7, Yak 3&7, Fw 190 and Me 109 speed comparison chart



Holtzauge
01-08-2005, 09:44 AM
Can anyone shed some light on the origin of the attached chart?

To me it seems that the German planes are presentaed as having poorer performance than IRL.

For example, a 213A powered D9 should do more than 610 km/h at s/l and around 700 km/h at 5.7 km altitude (Sondernotleistung). The A8 performance also seems to be underestimated.

I have some German speed/altitude charts of FW fighters but I do not have any similar data on the Me109 series. Does anyone have any Me 109 F, G and K charts that they are willing to share?

What about the Russian fighters? Is the data presented below in line with RL or is this biased in any way? Does anyone have data supporting these figures?

Again, it would be interesting to know what is correct and what is wrong in the picture below and why. Is the poor German a/c performance presented due to premeditated wartime propaganda or is it due to lousy intelligence?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Holtzauge/Fw190A8D9Yak3La7Yak9Me109G10speedcomp.jpg

Holtzauge
01-08-2005, 09:44 AM
Can anyone shed some light on the origin of the attached chart?

To me it seems that the German planes are presentaed as having poorer performance than IRL.

For example, a 213A powered D9 should do more than 610 km/h at s/l and around 700 km/h at 5.7 km altitude (Sondernotleistung). The A8 performance also seems to be underestimated.

I have some German speed/altitude charts of FW fighters but I do not have any similar data on the Me109 series. Does anyone have any Me 109 F, G and K charts that they are willing to share?

What about the Russian fighters? Is the data presented below in line with RL or is this biased in any way? Does anyone have data supporting these figures?

Again, it would be interesting to know what is correct and what is wrong in the picture below and why. Is the poor German a/c performance presented due to premeditated wartime propaganda or is it due to lousy intelligence?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Holtzauge/Fw190A8D9Yak3La7Yak9Me109G10speedcomp.jpg

robban75
01-08-2005, 09:58 AM
The Russian planes on that charts are run at WEP while the German fighters are run at Steig - u. Kampfleistung(climb and combat), which is far from Sonder - Notleistung(Special emergency). So the D-9 on that chart is using only 1680PS of 2100PS avaliable at WEP.

VW-IceFire
01-08-2005, 10:44 AM
And as I understand it...German planes have a larger disparity of performance between combat and WEP power than with other planes.

I.e. the difference between engaging WEP on a Spitfire and not is smaller than the difference between engaging WEP on a FW190 or not. This is especially true in the late war birds...a 109K-4 without MW50 engaged is pretty good but with it enabled it becomes a real performer.

Holtzauge
01-08-2005, 01:09 PM
My understanding of Russian is bordering on nonexistant but I think the curves say something like "nominal" and "forzah" for both the La-7 and D9. I have no idea how to map this to German terms.

However, the people who compiled the diagram either got their numbers mixed (steig/kampf L and sondernot L) or they were unaware of the fact that there was a "special forzah" (sondernotlesitung) for the D9 or they conveniently forgot to mention this in the diagram and that bring us back to either faulty intelligence or premeditated misleading propaganda info. Either way the chart is off.

If the chart was used by Russian pilots or someone else working with tactics it could ruin your day since the info is misleading as to the performance of GAF fighters.

Example: the diagram shows the La-7 outpacing a D9 at 4-6 Km altitude which it would not do if the D9 employed "sondernotleistung" and the La-7 data in the chart is correct.

Could someone familiar with Russian can help with translation of the text in the diagram?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
The Russian planes on that charts are run at WEP while the German fighters are run at Steig - u. Kampfleistung(climb and combat), which is far from Sonder - Notleistung(Special emergency). So the D-9 on that chart is using only 1680PS of 2100PS avaliable at WEP. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Saburo_0
01-08-2005, 01:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
The Russian planes on that charts are run at WEP while the German fighters are run at Steig - u. Kampfleistung(climb and combat), which is far from Sonder - Notleistung(Special emergency). So the D-9 on that chart is using only 1680PS of 2100PS avaliable at WEP. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Words I understood in this post: Planes, chart, run.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Why I enjoy coming here: People know all the obscure stuff that I'd like to know but find too difficult/time consuming tolear for myself.
Oh & the reason I don't complain about FMs: Alot of people know alot more than i do.

The FB series is a fun educatonal experience!

robban75
01-08-2005, 05:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Saburo_0:
Words I understood in this post: Planes, chart, run.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Why I enjoy coming here: People know all the obscure stuff that I'd like to know but find too difficult/time consuming tolear for myself.
Oh & the reason I don't complain about FMs: Alot of people know alot more than i do.

The FB series is a fun educatonal experience! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He he! Confusing isn't it. You aint seen nothing yet! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Here's a quick explanation of the D-9 power settings.

From low to high.

1.Steig - u. Kampfleistung-Climb & Combat

2.Start -u. Notleistung - Takeoff & Emergency

3.Sonder - Notleistung - Special Emergency

Or...

1. Climb & Combat. This power setting could be maintained for 30 minutes with a stock Jumo 213A.

2.Takeoff & Emergency. On a stock Jumo 213A this meant 1750PS, which could be maintained for 10 minutes.

3.Special Emergency. This powersetting is with the addition of MW50, which allowed 2100PS for 10 minutes.

Quite easy so far yes?
Now I'm gonna stir it up a little.

Dora's soon received a "steigerungs r├╝statz" which allowed the previous Start -u. Notleistung - Takeoff & Emergency, to be increased from 1750PS to 1900PS. The 1900PS was achieved without an additional boosting agent (such as MW50).
This meant that the Steig - u. Kampfleistung-Climb & Combat could now be maintained indefinatly, and that 1750PS could now be maintained for 30 minutes, and 1900PS could be used for 10 minutes. The use of Sonder Notleistung remained unchanged, giving 2100PS for up to 10 minutes.

There are charts that shows a 2240PS output, but it hasn't been identified if a normal Jumo 213A was capable of this.
There were 2:nd generation Jumo 213A's aswell. It is speculated that the 2240PS output comes from these engines.

Holtzauge
01-09-2005, 07:12 AM
OK, Robban75 that was interseting info!

However, I am still wondering about the rationale of stating "forzah" performance for the D9 as low as is done in the diagram.

Even if the exact details of all the different modes of WEP for the D9 was unknown to the Russians I still find it hard to belive that they were unaware of MW50 boost and notleistung and there should have been pilot reports coming back from jocks who encountered the D9, together with intelligence data suggesting better performance.

If the chart should show just one "forzah" curve for the D9 it would make sense to show the true potential and use one of the rightmost curves from the chart below. Otherwise my guess would be faulty info or propaganda.

Still wondering about the La-7 and Yak 3 & 9 performance though. Did these just have one "forzah" setting and if so is the chart correct? Does it show the true potential of these Russian fighters or do these curves also leave something to be desired?

Would really appreciate if someone could post some data on Russian a/c like the chart or some other source they believe reliable!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Holtzauge/fw190_D9_speed_chart.jpg

Abbuzze
01-09-2005, 07:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
And as I understand it...German planes have a larger disparity of performance between combat and WEP power than with other planes.

I.e. the difference between engaging WEP on a Spitfire and not is smaller than the difference between engaging WEP on a FW190 or not. This is especially true in the late war birds...a 109K-4 without MW50 engaged is pretty good but with it enabled it becomes a real performer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The big differnce is a result of the low octane fuel german planes have to use till the end of war.
Allies planes got higher octane fuel and the engines could be adjusted to this and performe better at standard poweroutput.
German engine had a compareable low power for standard, the MW50 injection where able to equalize this disadvantage of low octane fuel and gave them a big increase when using it...

robban75
01-09-2005, 07:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Holtzauge:
OK, Robban75 that was interseting info!

However, I am still wondering about the rationale of stating "forzah" performance for the D9 as low as is done in the diagram.

Even if the exact details of all the different modes of WEP for the D9 was unknown to the Russians I still find it hard to belive that they were unaware of MW50 boost and notleistung and there should have been pilot reports coming back from jocks who encountered the D9, together with intelligence data suggesting better performance.

If the chart should show just one "forzah" curve for the D9 it would make sense to show the true potential and use one of the rightmost curves from the chart below. Otherwise my guess would be faulty info or propaganda.

Still wondering about the La-7 and Yak 3 & 9 performance though. Did these just have one "forzah" setting and if so is the chart correct? Does it show the true potential of these Russian fighters or do these curves also leave something to be desired?

Would really appreciate if someone could post some data on Russian a/c like the chart or some other source they believe reliable!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure what to make of that Russian chart. It shows the A-8 to have equal SL topspeed as the D-9. My guess is that the Russian didn't know how to get the best performance out of the D-9. I've read they had a captured LW pilot that told them how it was supposed to be done. Not sure if he told the whole story though, it sure doesn't look like it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Rechlin charts shows the best performance no doubt(for serial produced machines, not prototypes). The planes have polished and filled surfaces. However pilots and ground personel took great care in polishing the machine in the field aswell, something that is supported by anecdotal and photographic evidence. Polishing a D-9 could give a speed increase of 15-20km/h.

This book http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/SCA/sca.jpg mention performance numbers at "normal" power and "augmented" power. Augmented, is no doubt Forzah, I don't know what normal power is. Perhaps it's full power without WEP?

Holtzauge
01-09-2005, 08:12 AM
So mayby the chart was compiled after hostilities ceased? Interesting thought. Speculating about this I would agree that the motivation for an interned LW jock to show all of the potential in his former mount would be low. Mine certainly would! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

About "forzah" I would assume this is WEP. If you fly e.g the La-7 in the SIM you get the "forzah enabled" reading on the right of the display when you engage WEP but I have no idea.

I'm still hoping someone out there who knows the Russian planes will post some data and shed some light in this!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:

I'm not sure what to make of that Russian chart. It shows the A-8 to have equal SL topspeed as the D-9. My guess is that the Russian didn't know how to get the best performance out of the D-9. I've read they had a captured LW pilot that told them how it was supposed to be done. Not sure if he told the whole story though, it sure doesn't look like it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Augmented, is no doubt Forzah, I don't know what normal power is. Perhaps it's full power without WEP? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BBB_Hyperion
01-09-2005, 02:47 PM
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Perform.html

La7 La5fn

robban75
01-09-2005, 11:40 PM
Excellent! Thanks Hyperion! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LeadSpitter_
01-10-2005, 07:36 AM
Now wheres the original data those tests were takken from. burned lost etc. Or did the russian have color printing in the 40s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Its just an authors representation of performance I wouldnt exactly use that chart as proof it had to come from some russian book and chart is a recreation not original. The real data charts used to make that one would be interesting to see.

Holtzauge
01-10-2005, 12:46 PM
Where do you find all the goodies: La data, 109K turn charts, 109 stick force charts etc???
Thanks for sharing! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Perform.html

La7 La5fn <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Holtzauge
01-10-2005, 12:57 PM
Were you unaware of the fact that laser printer technology was developed by the Russians and stolen by the imperialistic Americans at the closing stages of WW2? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Seriously, I have no idea of the authenticity of the chart. I'm just trying to build up some understanding of a/c performance and since the LW planes looked to be off in the chart I was wondering about how well the Russian planes were presented.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Now wheres the original data those tests were takken from. burned lost etc. Or did the russian have color printing in the 40s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Its just an authors representation of performance I wouldnt exactly use that chart as proof it had to come from some russian book and chart is a recreation not original. The real data charts used to make that one would be interesting to see. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BBB_Hyperion
01-10-2005, 02:38 PM
I believe the Data on this site is from this tests
check serial numbers.

http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/La709.jpg
http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/La710.jpg

So looks valid .)

robban75
01-11-2005, 11:50 AM
Hmm...

La-7 climbrate m/sec.

------ game - real
1000 - 27.0 - 24.2
2000 - 24.4 - 20.0
3000 - 20.4 - 18.6
4000 - 20.0 - 15.0
5000 - 20.0 - 15.0
6000 - 17.9 - 12.7
7000 - 15.2 - 10.2