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willyvic
11-28-2004, 01:08 PM
[Quote by Bearcat99]

Think about it. If something like a sick programmer can hold the presses then we are not dealing with a mega coorp. here... 1C is not a huge operation. Stuff happens. Be glad the company is still working to fully deliver and not leaving us all hanging from a tree. History has proven to us that inspite of the stuff like what happened yesterday where the man pops his head up to inform us of progress and he gets hit upside the head by a wad of ****. No more.
After the shamefull way some members of this community acted yesterday and a night of thinking about it I have come to this conclusion. From this day on if I see any and I do mean any post that I deem innaproprite or disrespectfull in any way towards Oleg or the 1C team I will lock/delete it and possibly ban the poster(s). Heavy handed? You bet!!! Arrogant!! YEAHHH BABY. Im feelin like Lilly Tomlin at the phone company right now.

Insulting Oleg or shutting down the open lines of communication will do absolutely nothing but hurt this community by keeping it in the dark and jeapordize the future of the best sim to hit the planet. As a ardent flight sim junkie I wont allow that if it is within my power to DO something. Constructive criticism? Sure!!! We need it. It makes the sim better. But the ridiculously immature and belittling rants I hear around here are unacceptable. You dont like it? TOUGH. Im a moderator and part of my job is to moderate around here. If you think Im being to heavy handed or ego tripping you can either go to Raz and have me canned or bite me. Be warned. The ban stick is out and it has nails on the end of it. [end quote]


I find your intent justifiable. However, I find your ability to objectively impart your thoughts on the matter while wearing the mantle of a moderator to be less than satisfactory. Am I concerned with this? You bet!!! Do I like it? NO WAY! Solution? Tough it out. I understand you PERSONAL feelings on the matter and furhter understand your stance as a moderator. But I take umbrage at the dictatorial and threatening feeling of the sticky.

So just for the record, I am a guest in your house and will, as I have always, accomodate you. But, as you have pointed out, I don't have to agree and/or like it.


With respect,
WV

edited for spelling of dictatorial...hehe.

GvSAP_Wingnut
11-28-2004, 01:35 PM
I'm sure Oleg can handle what happened. Name me another similarly-situated person who has a more loyal and ardent following.

Just delete posts and ban them in the first place, if that's what's going to be done. No need to talk down to everyone else.

Targ
11-28-2004, 01:38 PM
For the record I am with Bearcat on this one. To long has this forum run amok and had policy dictated by whiners and complainers. Many in the flight sim regard this forum as a joke, and rightly so.
I am sure some feathers will be ruffled and some ego's hurt but oh well.
There is a reason you dont see crazy posts at Sim HQ like you do here, they dont allow it and from here on out neither do I.
People shall reap what they sow from here on out.

Bearcat99
11-28-2004, 01:41 PM
Yeah well I'm not the first mod to make such a post and I won't be the last considering some of the folks in here. I'm not talking down to anyone except those who deserve it and we all know who they are. if it doesnt apply to you then there is no need to be concerned. I think I am being quite objective... and quite clear. I want the flow of dialog between us and 1C to remain open and I wont sit back while all these little cumulative hits chip away at the relationship we have with 1C to the point where we are treated like any other developer would treat his customers. Yeah I know its dictatorial... but the "OK come on guys.. now.... be nice... state your beefs clearly and with proof in this thread.." approach doesn't seem to work. There is absolutely no justification for what happened yaeterday. Not here.. not with this product or this developer. I will do what I have to to try to prevent it from happening again. Like I said.. if any of you have a problem with that then take it to Raz... untill then act accordingly.

willyvic
11-28-2004, 01:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Targ:
There is a reason you dont see crazy posts at Sim HQ like you do here, they dont allow it and from here on out neither do I.
People shall reap what they sow from here on out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. So slam the ones needing slamming and get rid of the sticky.

Bear,
Your correct, you are not the first moderator to post something in that vein. And, for the most part, you are doing a bang up job. I just found your post to project your personal opinion versus the objective opinion that should accompany a moderators post. I know your human, at least that's the rumor, and that you get pi**ed. But being a mod means that sometimes you have to put your personal feelings aside. Or at least impart those feelings in a way that is condusive with righting a wrong in such a manner as to invite compliance. Leadership by example bro.

Still with respect,
WV.

VMF-214_HaVoK
11-28-2004, 02:05 PM
Lets hope Moderators see it fit to start locking and deleting the ridiculous trolling threads. Such as ones posted by MuhumidAli (whatever his name is). You know the ones like "wtf the wildcats outturns the zero" or "I still cant stall the Corsair" These threads serve absolutely nothing but an attempt to start a flame war. They are in no way constructive to this sim. Anyone with a clue knows the above is false by a long shot.

All obvious antiamerican, anitgerman, and antijapanese plane threads should be locked and deleted on sight.

Im sure these are just as harmfull to the community and annoying to Oleg as anything else.

=S=

Targ
11-28-2004, 02:11 PM
Ali is on a short vacation right now, but I can assure you that posts like his and anything related will be locked and the users banned.

Freycinet
11-28-2004, 03:30 PM
Bearcat, Targ, go for it!

Great attitude, it is time that somebody stand up and defend the special relationship between the community and this developer!

It is not a question of being dictatorial, just a question of being courteous as we all ought to be in our social contacts, on the internet as well.

If the kids of the 'Hood want to "STFU" and "WTF" ad nauseam they can do that among themselves, but they shouldn't be allowed to spout their hate-filled speech in here.

I left this zoo for SimHQ because of the tone in here, and I'm glad you guys are going to fight back.

Longjocks
11-28-2004, 07:15 PM
Ah, constructive criticism... wouldn't it be lovely?

*dreams pleasant dreams*

LEXX_Luthor
11-28-2004, 08:29 PM
Oleg posting here is more important than the hurt feelings of teh diaper rash.

BestBear99 do what you must to keep Oleg an active member. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Raptor_20thFG
11-29-2004, 01:30 AM
I totally agree go get em men

123-Wulf-JG123
11-29-2004, 07:50 AM
I agree...sometimes people think freedom of speech means freedom of manners, or the courtesy to listen.
There have been some highly obnoxious posts in this forum,insulting and confrontational, to exactly the WRONG person.
Frankly I'm surprised Oleg puts up with it, I personally would have taken my money and my time elsewhere long ago.
Good post Bearcat. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
11-29-2004, 07:59 AM
*yawn* *sniff* *scratches rear-end* Did I miss something? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

dieg777
11-29-2004, 09:59 AM
Glad to see the big sticks are being brought out at last- might bring some form of civility here.

FEED THE BEAR !!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
11-29-2004, 10:08 AM
Agreed 100 pro! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

This forum is vivid and alive. A helpfull source for answers to many questions, help for newcomers and technical questions, sharing sources and data, and a lot of fun. But some people really misuse it and I support any measure to educate those indiviuals.

Thanks for your work, mods ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Without you, this place would have died out long before. (e.g. before and after each new patch release http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

horseback
11-29-2004, 02:06 PM
"If the kids of the 'Hood want to "STFU" and "WTF" ad nauseam they can do that among themselves, but they shouldn't be allowed to spout their hate-filled speech in here."

I'm with Freycenet-if you want to act like a comic book thug, do it someplace else. You can always go to a Pacers' game with your intellectual peers.

cheers

horseback

PBNA-Boosher
11-29-2004, 05:07 PM
Cat and the rest of the mods have been doing an incredible job here these past few weeks. I haven't seen any one whine that went sour, and even if there was a whine, it turned comical quite quickly. Everyone's been treated with respect. I come to this place a lot more regularly now than I used to because I know I'll like what I find.

VW-IceFire
11-29-2004, 05:24 PM
I have to say I'm with Bearcat on this. Making legitimate requests, pointing out problems, and explaining why certain features aren't very good or not well done can be done in a constructive and fair manner. We've got plenty of forum posters that are doing all of that and then similtaenously insulting everyone they can get their hands on...the developers especially.

They don't deserve to have virtual rotten tomatoes thrown at them and neither does anyone else. I'm glad the moderators are taking a harder stance on this...throw out some people if you need to. We've got plenty of fair minded people here who like and dislike features and can articulate them in a fair manner. Its not like the community is going to die because we threw a few troublemakers out of the forum.

Korolov
11-29-2004, 05:39 PM
I should also note, that if anyone has a problem with the way this forum is ran or the moderators, they can go make their own forums. You can then do whatever you wish on these forums.

Although I've disagreed with many moderator's actions in certain situations, I understand that it's a tough job at times, and situations arise where you don't have a choice between "Off" and "High."

willyvic
11-29-2004, 06:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:

...Although I've disagreed with many moderator's actions in certain situations, I understand that it's a tough job at times, and situations arise where you don't have a choice between "Off" and "High." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But wouldn't you agree that the very title of Moderator lends itself to the standard of a "moderate" atmosphere, neither "off" or "high". By taking up the job one should be expected to follow the accepted norms. To get irate is one thing, to publish it is another, and to publish it in a manner that does not invite discussion is, I guess to me anyway, below par for this forum.

And another thing for the record. All should read the entire thread before posting. My issue is not with the content of the message but with the tone and delivery. I back the mods 100% in their efforts to ride roughshod over these boards. I believe they do a good job. Kudos to them. Irrational, irresponsible, or inpudent behavior should be nipped in the bud.

Ah, heck. Let it rest. My soap box just crumbled.

Respectfully,
WV.

message edited for spelling error. impundent indeed.

MRL69
11-29-2004, 06:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by willyvic:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:

...Although I've disagreed with many moderator's actions in certain situations, I understand that it's a tough job at times, and situations arise where you don't have a choice between "Off" and "High." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But wouldn't you agree that the very title of Moderator lends itself to the standard of a "moderate" atmosphere, neither "off" or "high". By taking up the job one should be expected to follow the accepted norms. To get irate is one thing, to publish it is another, and to publish it in a manner that does not invite discussion is, I guess to me anyway, below par for this forum.

And another thing for the record. All should read the entire thread before posting. My issue is not with the content of the message but with the tone and delivery. I back the mods 100% in their efforts to ride roughshod over these boards. I believe they do a good job. Kudos to them. Irrational, irresponsible, or inpundent behavior should be nipped in the bud.

Ah, heck. Let it rest. My soap box just crumbled.

Respectfully,
WV. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nahhh....don't let it rest. I for one agree with you. I think you have a very valid point and I have seen first hand, as of late and I won't go into specifics for fear of possible retaliation, the very behavior of which speak. Kudos, Kudos.

heywooood
11-29-2004, 06:32 PM
To me it seems ok to come here and raise questions to each other about the validity or accuracy of some aspect of the sim - or even to wonder about the various aspects of shaving. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

But for anyone to bash the product or the other forum members or - in the very worst possible scenario - the very people that made this sim or worked on it , especially here on this forum, is unacceptable and of the lowest character.

The difference in these posts seems obvious to me but I've seen much go on here that is out of line.

The mods do a great job but they are outnumbered and have other obligations so there is no point in blaming them. So support your local law enforcement and nuke the ghey whales.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
11-29-2004, 06:59 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/yomag.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

OI!!

GvSAP_Wingnut
11-29-2004, 07:15 PM
I think the point being made is that everyone agreed to a Terms of Use when signing up, this forum is moderated, and we all know what that means. Delete the thread, ban the guy, whatever.

As for calling the comments to Oleg and 1C disrespectful, inappropriate, immature, belittling, and generally unacceptable - you're right.

What if someone makes them about CFS3?

Bearcat99
11-29-2004, 07:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GvSAP_Wingnut:
I think the point being made is that everyone agreed to a Terms of Use when signing up, this forum is moderated, and we all know what that means. Delete the thread, ban the guy, whatever.
As for calling the comments to Oleg and 1C disrespectful, inappropriate, immature, belittling, and generally unacceptable - you're right.
What if someone makes them about CFS3? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This isnt CFS3,Bill Gates will never come here unless it is incognito like the Coke guy in the Pepsi case and we arent depending on Bill for future support of this product. We are depending on Oleg and 1C for those things and ... at least I think most of us want him to continue coming here... soooooooo....

heywooood
11-29-2004, 07:39 PM
yes - especially that last part, Bear...one of the best things about this forum or any forum is the active participation of Oleg and all the other people that made FB PF etc..and the modelers like Jippo et al. that have shown us in great depth what they do. Awesome.

JG77Hawk_9
11-29-2004, 08:00 PM
Well done Mods, nice to see something starting to happened with regards to cleaning up these boards and long overdue. Discussion is one thing but incessant whining is another and flame fests are a waste of hosting space.

All the best in your mission gang and I think I might start to try reading these boards more often than I have lately although RedOrchestra has taken up some of my online time (-:

Sorry about the shameless plug but it's the Il2 of Ground Pounding

GvSAP_Wingnut
11-29-2004, 08:13 PM
Of course Bill doesn't come here. But a lot of people who like the CFS or MSFS games do and put up with a lot of abuse in these forums.

I agree that the posts to Oleg were disrespectful and should be locked or removed. I just don't see why such posts are immature and unacceptable when they are apparently fine and dandy if referring to something other than IL2 or someone other than Oleg or 1C. That's not demanding respect, it's demanding homage.

Oh and as for not needing Bill's support: for this product, no. For hardware, you better believe it. Let MS pull the CFS and the Flight Simulator series and let's see the product development from CH, Saitek, NaturalPoint, etc etc.

heywooood
11-29-2004, 08:24 PM
Bashing is the problem - not differing oppinions


And you are right about CFS MS series - they are necessary evils?....however - several MS supporters come here occasionally and bash 1c product for sole purpose of inflammation. This needs to be thwarted at least.

Lucius_Esox
11-29-2004, 08:25 PM
Am unsure on this one. What worries me is that I'm not to sure what I can say!! I'm not happy with that to be honest. But if it serves a means to an end, okayish!

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
11-29-2004, 08:40 PM
Sheeeet we all know full well when we have gone to far its as simple as that. If your intention is to have a meaningful debate then post in a meaningful manner and allow the debate to continue in that fashion.

do unto others as you would have done unto you and don't bloody whine about it when you get done for doing it if what you did was something you shouldn't have done.

RedDeth
11-29-2004, 08:58 PM
if you havent been banned once you havent lived life to the fullest.

btw what did i miss??????

and what did ali say? i know him so id be curious.

wayno7777
11-29-2004, 09:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GvSAP_Wingnut:
I think the point being made is that everyone agreed to a Terms of Use when signing up, this forum is moderated, and we all know what that means. Delete the thread, ban the guy, whatever.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right here is the whole point.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Bearcat99
11-29-2004, 10:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GvSAP_Wingnut:
Of course Bill doesn't come here. But a lot of people who like the CFS or MSFS games do and put up with a lot of abuse in these forums.

I agree that the posts to Oleg were disrespectful and should be locked or removed. I just don't see why such posts are immature and unacceptable when they are apparently fine and dandy if referring to something other than IL2 or someone other than Oleg or 1C. That's not demanding respect, it's demanding homage.

Oh and as for not needing Bill's support: for this product, no. For hardware, you better believe it. Let MS pull the CFS and the Flight Simulator series and let's see the product development from CH, Saitek, NaturalPoint, etc etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The MS presence in simming has no doubt helped the genre but that's not the point. Truth be told I don't care what people say about MS products. I don't fly them. This isn't a MS forum. It's a UBI forum and as I said.... Oleg comes here.... more and more rarely thanks to the atmosphere but at least till a few days ago, he came here. I have gone to Sim HQ's CFS forum and they have bashed this sim and Oleg often enough. Its a territorial given. I just dont go there if i dont want to hear it. If you want to sing the praises of CFS and not get some kind of (ahem.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) feedback.....or are sensitive to its criticism then dont come here (you in general.. not YOU personally). I have not seen CFS fliers get abused here... I have seen the occasional terse and quite abrupt (to put it mildly) response to "Why I think CFS3 is better" type threads.... but I dont see people who like CFS sims taking abuse because they like CFS. I see the CFS series taking abuse and deservedly so... and like I said.. I could give 2 cents aboout it. The fact is, several well known people (to any old timers or semi old timers) who have been banned here on more than one occasion have gone off on major tears about everything from the 190 to the fact that the code is closed and all points in between (Anti German bias,anti American bias,promising and not delivering,fabricated FMs and DMs... etc etc etc) and as I said in my original post.. all this would be, at the very least something to consider <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">IF</span> the past was not what it is.. but based on Oleg and 1C's proven record of quality, craftsmanship,attention to detail and involvement long after the fact with the product (and long after most other developers say <span class="ev_code_RED">C-YA!! NEEEEXT!!... </span>,whether his motive is dedication to his work and it's buyers or the old favorite of <span class="ev_code_GREEN">mo money, mo money, mo money</span>. This involvement AFAIC has earned them at the very least the respect of this community.. most of us anyway......and the right to not come here and have to hear the type of stuff he gets on a regular basis just about everytime he showes his face. I and the other mods are going to make sure that he doesnt have to have any more battles of wits with unarmed people again. If you have a beef... back it up, present it like you know what you are talking about or save it for a PT or an email if you have to vent. This isnt Jerry Springer. My concern... my ONLY concern is what will make THIS community better, and getting the most out of Oleg and 1C for this product, this genre and THIS community... and indirectly ME as I can. Driving away Oleg will not do that. I want Oleg and 1C making sims for a long time.... This is a UBI....... IL2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles/Pacific Fighters place. That is my concern.


And for those compositionally compulsive/obsessive folks reading this thread..... sorry I just didn't feel like paragraphing it.....OK http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Rab03
11-30-2004, 05:35 AM
First I'd like to express my firm belief in right of freedom of speech. But, like other personal rights that we have, it is constrained by the rights of others. I agree with Bearcat that a line should be drawn. I believe that absolute majority of visitors of these forums are aware of hard work and dedication Oleg & Team put in Il-2. Isn't bashing some one doing his best to make the product perfect considered a harrassment?

I remember a scene from an old B&W movie which perfectly illustrates beginning of my reply: salesman without hands (WWII bomber veteran) is serving a demanding customer. Customer, although salesman is doing his best to please him, becomes angry and shouts at the man. Another person standing by pays attention to the scene, approaches and knocks angry customer out. Entire scene ends up with his words to the salesman: "The customer isn't always right".

I always felt I can ask for or suggest something, but I didn't feel I had a right to demand anything from Oleg & Team. Why? Compared to other simulations, this one is the peak-you just can't get anything better, no matter the price tag. For Il-2, I can't say it's worth every buck-'cause it's worth more. Is this game buggy? No. Is this game unfinished product rushed in stores before Christmas? No. Was this game made with use of only one half of brain? No.

This place was always helpful, positively oriented, filled with argumented (educated) posts. My support for the mods in keeping it this way.

John_Stag
11-30-2004, 11:37 AM
"Freedom of Speech" doesn't give anybody the right to dump on others, but is the phrase most bandied about by the kind of moron most likely to abuse it (Not you Rab; with your proviso about the rights of others you understand what it REALLY means). Besides, I can't see how it applies to a privately-funded forum. It's unbelieveable, some of the cr@p which has been allowed on this board up to now, and I can only hope that something good will come from the recent shameful display; that the moderators finally get their guns out and start using them.

High handed? things have been out of control for a long time here, so a bit of high-handedness is defintely in order until the more offensive members finally get the message, start behaving with a little respect towards the Developers and other forum members or spend so much time banned that they finally sod off and irritate people elsewhere.

Daiichidoku
11-30-2004, 01:30 PM
Constructive critisim is very subjective, remember

Oleg is a big boy, and stick and stones, and all that...Im sure from whatever he does read in the forums, he can discern for himslef what is relevant, and can ignore the chaff

In a way, the "defenders" of 1C only validate the "bashers"...just ignore them...the stoopider the post, the less likely it is to be taken seriously, especially by those who can actually have a say in the dev of the game...best to ignore what you dont like written, the less ear an idiot gets, the less lips he has

All said, it IS wonderful that there is whatever rapport the community has with 1C/Oleg

But just the same, Im as sick of those who overpraise or zealously "defend the faith" of 1C/Oleg as the bashers who see travesty in things like 3/4 ton trucks not having correct hubcaps, etc.

This is a FORUM, by definition a place for ALL to voice ANY opinion, regardless of how sterling or moronic it may be

Chill, ppl

MEGILE
11-30-2004, 01:38 PM
I just like flying.
All of these long posts make my head go dizzy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

John_Stag
11-30-2004, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
This is a FORUM, by definition a place for ALL to voice ANY opinion, regardless of how sterling or moronic it may be <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Within the rules of decency, commonsense, politeness, and whatever the moderators feel is relevant. The first three have been sadly lacking in too many cases; I hope number four will now be addressed in no uncertain terms.

This place needs an enema. It's got nothing to do with overpraise, it's got to do with BASIC RESPECT. If I posted I wanted to have your baby every fifth post, yep, I think you would probably get around to ignoring me.

On the other hand, if in every fifth post I called you a total ******, I'd lay odds in any betting shop on the planet that I'd be banned in a very short time, if not by you screaming at the moderators, then by somebody else who found my language offensive.

IMO, Oleg is a good man who does not deserve the sh1t he receives here. Do you think my ****ging you off every time you appeared would be unacceptable? why should Oleg be any different?

Daiichidoku
11-30-2004, 02:20 PM
Of course, I can only speak for myself, johnstag but if you were to **** me every post, I would actually ignore you, or at least your personal comments...again, sticks n stones my friend

I would only respond or react to relevant or humorous posts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Vladimir_No2
11-30-2004, 02:42 PM
Bearcat,
Thank you, Sir.

John_Stag
11-30-2004, 02:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
Of course, I can only speak for myself, johnstag but if you were to **** me every post, I would actually ignore you, or at least your personal comments...again, sticks n stones my friend

I would only respond or react to relevant or humorous posts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you saying that such behaviour would be acceptable? How about if I was standing 6 inches from your face?