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View Full Version : Italian gunsight size is wrong...



Rickustyit
02-23-2006, 03:27 PM
Oleg and team, I was expecting to see this changed in the latest 4.04 patch, but I couldn't find it in the readme...

Why did you put such a huge reflector sight in the new Italian Macchi C.200 and C.202/205?
The image projected is bigger then the lower part of the reflective gunsight.
The image reflected in the Fiat Cr42 and G.50 seems very close to reality comparing old photos and actual pictures taken at the various Italian fighters still in existance.

Please could you please set it to its real size also to the C.200 and C.202/205?

Note the size in the picture below. The San Giorgio B type reflector gunsight is the same in all the early Italian fighters.

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/7029/cockpitcr42b5lf.jpg

JG7_Rall
02-23-2006, 04:09 PM
Italian gunsight is the new 190 bar, be sure

Pig_Mac
02-23-2006, 05:22 PM
So big that the slide out of the reflector even http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/xallo/ringoffire.jpg

gates123
02-23-2006, 07:04 PM
hit CTRL d in the 202/205 and you'll get that site

A.K.Davis
02-23-2006, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by gates123:
hit CTRL d in the 202/205 and you'll get that site

That is only in the 205.

Rickustyit
02-24-2006, 12:51 AM
Rall, http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I hope not... In this case, they don't have to change all the 3d models of the interior. They just need to resize the sight's graphic.

There is plenty of evidence that the real image projected on the reflector sight was way smaller than the one we have in the game.

The really weird thing is that the Fiat Cr.42 and G.50 have the right size, while they put the totally wrong size in the new Macchis.
Why they did that? I really can't understand, since they put it right in the first place...

I really thought they would correct this in 4.04...
Oleg and team?

Ah, and obviously I'm very glad to see that shis is a company completely dedicated to its custumers and fans. Not everyone puts out patches long after the game has been released.

Do any of you have other reference picture for this issue? I have others, but they are quite blurry.

Rick

Abraxa
02-24-2006, 01:40 AM
actually the dimension of the reticle is correct, if compared to how the sighted aircraft fits it.
Bruno made a very accurate research and he might post later. I don't have the exact numbers here with me now, but the correct dimension should be about 120 mrad (from the San Giorgio manuals).
Practically, the reticle should be slightly bigger than the Revi.

The picture that you posted comes from a restored Macchi. It should be taken with a grain of salt, IMHO.

Jippo01
02-24-2006, 02:40 AM
On the photo the reticle is clearly painted on the glass, it is not the actual reticle you would see when the sight is powered.


-jippo

269GA-Veltro
02-24-2006, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by Jippo01:
On the photo the reticle is clearly painted on the glass, it is not the actual reticle you would see when the sight is powered.


-jippo

What Jippo say. Btw, all in that cockpit is strange.....for sure is not an original cockpi. Don't care about it please.

Thank Jippo.

Maraz_5SA
02-24-2006, 05:55 AM
This picture shows how a Bf.109 E should look like wen sighted at 300m distance in the San Giorgio gunsight.

Picture is taken from Bruno's tool "Sniper's Corner"

http://www.webalice.it/antonio.maraziti/collimatore.jpg


The wings are just a little bit larger than the two dots.

One should fly with icons enabled and see what the picture looks like in the simulator.

Maraz

NonWonderDog
02-24-2006, 06:09 AM
Yeah, that's definitely painted on the glass in the photo. The projected reticule wouldn't be visible at that angle.

Abraxa
02-24-2006, 08:21 AM
Hi all,
I'm unable now to directly answer and I thank Abraxa for reporting my note.

The actual sizes of S.Giorgio Tipo B were the following:

External circle diameter: 2x118= 236 mrad
Internal circle diameter: 2x60= 120 mrad
Distance between two consecutive dots: 28 mrad
These figures were clearly stated in the Official Gunsight Manual.

The small reproduction painted of the glass was a back up solution. The image posted by Rickustyit) clearly shows how it was intended to work:
As far as the pilot had problem with the lamps, he could flip down the glass frame (look at the bead in the middle of the black frame placed in the "extracted" mode) put his eye near it and aim. The optical angles from the bead to the painted reticule were the same as those pilot could see when looking at the reflected reticule from a "regular" distance. By the way, on the manual it was clearly reported that the complete image of the reflected reticule could be seen up to a 25cm distance between glass reflector and pilot's eye. That is way, it is well possible that, according to the simulated pilot distance from the gunsight, the whole S.Giorgio external circle could hardly stay within the gunsight glass area.
I don't actually know why there is that strange effect showed by Xallo_72, but as far as centred cockpit views are concerned, the size of S. Giorgio Tipo B reticule is correctly represented both in Mc 200 and Mc 202. It is easy to verify them. Consider that the Revi circle is 100mrad, take some measurements on the screen and make a proportion, using S.Giorgio measures.
Best Regards
Bruno

pdog1
02-24-2006, 11:43 AM
I like the big gun sight...easier for poor shots like me to actually hit anything. I don't have to squint just place the sight over airplane and fire away!

BerkshireHunt
02-24-2006, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Abraxa:
By the way, on the manual it was clearly reported that the complete image of the reflected reticule could be seen up to a 25cm distance between glass reflector and pilot's eye. That is way, it is well possible that, according to the simulated pilot distance from the gunsight, the whole S.Giorgio external circle could hardly stay within the gunsight glass area.
I don't actually know why there is that strange effect showed by Xallo_72, but as far as centred cockpit views are concerned, the size of S. Giorgio Tipo B reticule is correctly represented both in Mc 200 and Mc 202. It is easy to verify them. Consider that the Revi circle is 100mrad, take some measurements on the screen and make a proportion, using S.Giorgio measures.
Best Regards
Bruno

Hmmm... I remember a guy who worked as an optics specialist posting a few months back that it is impossible for the projected circle of light to ever be bigger than the diameter of the projector lens. Well, it is in the new Italian aircraft.
He was complaining about the Mig 3 sight, I think. I'm not saying you're wrong - I don't know what the truth is - but he seemed pretty certain and had technical arguments to back it up.

Pig_Mac
02-24-2006, 05:09 PM
@Maraz_5SA

The 2 white lines are the same size. (It was really hard to make even a friendly target to cooperate while I was fumbling for the pause button)

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/xallo/sightforsoreeyes.jpg

BerkshireHunt
02-24-2006, 06:39 PM
Well, that seems to prove that the external circle of the Giorgio sight is, indeed, slightly larger than the projector lens. Is that possible in reality?

Pig_Mac
02-24-2006, 09:53 PM
By the way, on the manual it was clearly reported that the complete image of the reflected reticule could be seen up to a 25cm distance between glass reflector and pilot's eye. That is way, it is well possible that, according to the simulated pilot distance from the gunsight, the whole S.Giorgio external circle could hardly stay within the gunsight glass area.

That got me a little confused. Did the projected size get a lot bigger outside 25 cm? I thought the size relative to the reflector was constant?
Anyone got some good site where I can read up a little on reflector sights?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/xallo/testsight.gif

Rickustyit
02-25-2006, 02:34 AM
Hello guys,
thank you for the detailed datas, I knew almost nothing about it.
As BerkshireHunt wrote, the thing that got me confused was the fact that the image projected is indeed larger than the actual gunsight platform: however I am not an expert at all, so it could be like this in reality.

So, there was a smaller image (with the same shape) painted on the gunsight, in case of a malfunction of the gunsight itself? That's why I always saw a smaller image projected on the reflector gunsight in magazine pictures.
Thank you for the informations.

This is a picture of the interior of a Fiat G.50. Probably they used this picture as a reference for the G.50 cockpit and gunsight http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/8522/cockpitg502ol.jpg

Rick

Rickustyit
02-25-2006, 07:33 AM
Xallo, that means we have a sight that is double the size of the original?

150 meters instead of 300 as written by Maraz?

Rick

Rickustyit
02-25-2006, 08:39 AM
Ok, I did a small test with the Fiat G.50 and its gunsight.

And... Look what I found http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Actually, a Bf.109 E sighted at 300 meters with the San Giorgio tipo B used in the Fiat fighters in the game, is exactly "centered" on the reflected image.
The 3 small dots are in the same spots where you can see them in the picture Maraz posted above.

So,did probably Oleg and team make it "twice" the normal size?

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/2673/sangiorgiogioco0mp.jpg

Rick

Bruno_
02-25-2006, 09:39 AM
@Maraz, Xallo_72 and Ricustyit: The version of Sniper's Corner Maraz mentioned still contained a best guess (but wrong) model of S.Giorgio Tipo B reticule. Later on I got exact measurements, I sent them to Oleg but I didn't update Sniper's Corner Data Base. In the next future, maybe, Abraxa and me will put Sniper's Corner 3 on line and you will get the correct sizes even for S.Giorgio Tipo B. Then you will easily check that Xallo_72 screenshoot represent the correct situation of a Me 109 at 150 mt from the attacker plane, as it should be seen through a San Giorgio Tipo B. This is to confirm you that things are correctly represented in PF.


Coming back to Reflector gunsight "Theory", here are some notes I wrote about them:
Reflector gunsight were devised for getting two results:
1) to allow the pilot to look at the same time at the target and at the surrounding scene;
2) to allow the pilot to get the same optical angle (deflection and/or range estimation) indipendently from the distance between the pilot's eye and the gunsight.
These were the main reasons why they were superior to the previous ones (Aldis type, like the one in the Ki 43).
In order to get the property n.2, the optical system was geared so that the size of reticule image enlarged as the distance between pilot's eye and gunsight got wider and, viceversa (imagine a rubber ring moving on a conical surface). Of course as far as the apparent image was contained into the reflector area, pilot could see the complete reticule but, from that limt distance on, pilot could see only a part of the reticule. There are examples of such concept in IL2. Look at Me 109 E or F Revi reticule and compare it to the one of Me 109 G or K or Fw 190. The revi reticule was the same but the reflector area of 109 G and 190 was smaller than the one of Me 109 E or F. Another example? Look at Russian fighters. The reticule was the PBP1 and had two circles. On some aircrafts you can see both, on some others you will see the inner circle only. Once again it is a matter of distance between pilot's eye and gunsight and of gunsight reflecting glass shape and area.

Abraxa
02-25-2006, 10:52 AM
I think that we might question if the dimensions of the lens (and the gunsight in general) are completely accurate but we better stick to the correct dimensions of the reticle - those given by Bruno - in any case... at least IMHO.

Pig_Mac
02-25-2006, 11:47 AM
Thanks a lot all for clearing it up. I rather have it real, than easier and more useful http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(I still wish they fixed the sight sliding out of the reflector, since almost 50% of the shooting have to be made from the offset view, since enemies have a really easy time to slip out of sight to the downright position.)

NonWonderDog
02-25-2006, 02:29 PM
So... The gunsight is supposed to be set for 300 meters, but is set for 150 meters instead?

Is this a confirmed bug... and has anyone sent an email to Oleg about it?

Pig_Mac
02-25-2006, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
So... The gunsight is supposed to be set for 300 meters, but is set for 150 meters instead?

Is this a confirmed bug... and has anyone sent an email to Oleg about it?

It's the old sights that are off. I wouldn't really want to set convergence to anything above 200 on any of the Macchis anyway =)

And the old sights, I guess the fans of those planes want to keep them the way they are.

Rickustyit
02-25-2006, 04:45 PM
Xallo: I rather have it real, than easier and more useful

I agree totally.

Thank you Bruno for the clear explanation.
Too bad that was the real way the gunsight was designed, as I find the smaller one on the G.50 much more lethal in the game.
In the game, I find that long range shots (not that long, 300-400 meters) are very hard with the real gunsight in the Macchis.

Rick

Bruno_
02-25-2006, 05:52 PM
I'm sorry to tell you that the G 50 reticle is historically wrong http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif since it should still be a San Giorgio Tipo B; just the same gunsight as for Macchi C 200 and 202. Anyway, please, take into account that the San Giorgio inner circle was 120 mils. San Giorgio Tipo C (MC 205) and Revi was 100 mils, VVS PBP1 inner circle was 133mils just like RAF gunsight circles. Therefore not that a big difference, in the end.
Anyway, I hope you still be able to enjoy Macchi fighters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

pdog1
02-25-2006, 06:05 PM
lol Bruno maybe when they fix the FM and DM, i don't care how big or small the sight size is lol.