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View Full Version : How the heck did this ME-262 get to japan?



kearsarge007
02-15-2006, 03:08 AM
How did the germans shiped this plane to their ally?
both of this country is finished by 1944 when this plane became operational!
these two "Axis" are surrounded by the allies!

this photo does not have enough details on how it got to japan,Any info about this photo?

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/6300/262a12qf.jpg

StG2_Schlachter
02-15-2006, 03:16 AM
It was delivered by U-Boats. Isn't that obvious http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

And "finished" is not true. This wasn't the case until spring of 1945.

And "der Schwalbe" is wrong. "der" is the article for male, while "Schwalbe" is female.
Thus it is "die Schwalbe".

nakamura_kenji
02-15-2006, 03:21 AM
odd thought never get me-262 because submarine transfer sink think confuse me-163. lot technology transfer submarine believe how japan mg-151-20 cannon also

similar design nakajima kikka
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/Kikka.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/Kikka-3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/nakajima_kikka-3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/nakajima_kikka-2.jpg

kearsarge007
02-15-2006, 03:23 AM
You cannot deliver a plane halfway around the world like that! the waters around germany and japan is surrounded by the allies!....not to mension the refueling process!

But if this is possible,maybe Hitler did not die in berlin at all,He embark on a U-boat to asia! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

ricey2005
02-15-2006, 03:24 AM
A lot of equipment and personel were working with the Japs near the end of the war.

Its no surprise a 262 ended up in the far east, and I read somewhere that some tiger tanks were captured as well.

D13th_Toppy
02-15-2006, 03:28 AM
dude, you gotta get your hands on some books and study a little. What do you mean both of this country is finished by 1944" or "you can't?". It was possible and was done! the germans delivered some 800(not sure about the exact number this is from memory) Mg151 cannons to japan this way, along with Me163 and the plans for Me262 (on wich the Japanese designed the kikka Kenji posted above).

Suedwester
02-15-2006, 03:29 AM
I think it might really be a Me-262 (especially according to the nose-paint). Germany sent U-Boats to the Far East in the last years of the war. They should carry goods from Germany to Japan and back (if they came through...). Some time ago I´ve read, that they transported at least some pieces of Me-262s.

Edit: oops - too late... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

kearsarge007
02-15-2006, 03:31 AM
If this "technology exchange" is done using U-boats,what route did this U-boat take?
obviously not via pacific?
But how did they manage to keep a low profile?
how did they refuel their subs?

I'm surprised about the TIGER tanks too!

***By 1944 Germans & japs are retreating from the beaches of normandy to marianas turkey shoot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ***

Capt.LoneRanger
02-15-2006, 03:33 AM
kearsarge007, just for your information:

Transport-Submarines regulary travelled between Japan and Germany during the war. If the one with plutonium hadn't been sunk near India, the Nazis probably had the bomb ready for use in 1945 and they were allready in the final steps of producing a rocket that was able to hit the US. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
02-15-2006, 03:36 AM
The submarines were specifically designed, strapped of all weapons, running with minimum crews and packed with large fuel tanks. They are also known to have bunkered fuel in neutral ports. Due to the Geneva convention every ship entering a port and staying for more than 24hours is literally out of the buisiness. The Germans (and other countries) used that, to bring loaded supply-ships into these harbors, which had to stay there until the end of the war. As you can see in "Das Boot", they nevertheless were able to refuel and rearm German U-Boats secretly.

Suedwester
02-15-2006, 03:38 AM
They went all the way down the Atlantic round Africa in the Indian Ocean. There were types (like the IX D-2) which could do it without refuelling. And others, that had to be refuelled by other U-Boats. These support-boats were called "Milkcows". There were also some German freighters in the region, that would refuel U-Boats.

kearsarge007
02-15-2006, 03:43 AM
WOW...These are massive undertakings!

the only documentary i've seen about this (exshange)is about the Japs submarine( I-52 )
and this sub was sunk by prowling avengers "at night" this sub contain gold too.

the documentary also said that germ & jap subs will meet at a rally poin to trade infos.
but the thing that intrigued me now is how do they manage to transfer military hardwares between these subs? *Ricey2005 even* said that Tiger tanks where captured in asia!

nakamura_kenji
02-15-2006, 03:44 AM
here Mitsubishi J8M1/ki-200 shusui

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/J8M-10.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/J8M-17.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/J8M-Hanger-1.jpg

ps: please no use jap use jp or jpn if want short japanese

Capt.LoneRanger
02-15-2006, 04:08 AM
kearsarge007, this one is known as the "golden sub".

It was just one being sunk. The gold was the payment for technology, material and equipment being transfered to Japan.

jimDG
02-15-2006, 04:18 AM
The Germans also had quite a few merchant ships sailing under false (neutral) flag. Some of these were actualy raiders - they had big hidden guns (the deck opens and 15cm guns pop up). One of these ships sank or captured and sent to Germany with their cargo about 30 UK ships in the Indian ocean before being cornered by a cruiser. And it almost won that engagement - they found each other in a fog, and when they spoted each other they were 0.5 km away - at that range the cruiser armor was as good as non existant.

kearsarge007
02-15-2006, 04:20 AM
(thanks for the photos kenji,i never tought they existed until now)

I have not read any aviation books about WW2 refering to this advanced aircrafts that the japanese has! I also havent read any article about this "Jets & rockets" devastating US bomber formations conducting "fire raids" on japs cities at 5,000 feet!
did they ever used this planes in combat???
this planes are more advance than any american aircraft in that theater...

Manuel29
02-15-2006, 04:27 AM
Last night I read an article about the me-163: DAMN!!! It was a killer machine (for the pilot inside, of course) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Abbuzze
02-15-2006, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
kearsarge007, just for your information:

Transport-Submarines regulary travelled between Japan and Germany during the war. If the one with plutonium hadn't been sunk near India, the Nazis probably had the bomb ready for use in 1945 and they were allready in the final steps of producing a rocket that was able to hit the US. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Not realy Heisenberg´s team was far away from builing an a-bomb. After the war a lot of german physics told that they didn´t want to give Hitler this weapon, but in fact they even missing a lot of basic knownledge to build it. US troops that prisoned Heisenberg and his team togehter with a "primitve" research reactor, were surprised how far away they were from building the bomb. US secret service wasn´t well informend in the war about this.

BUT, even if it seems that they were far away, Heisenberg after hearing about the drop of the bomb over Japan, needed two or three weeks to calculate the critical mass of such a bomb - allone, prisioned by the british in a small room. The US-Team needed much more people and time to do this. The german A-bomb is still a very mysterious story.

Beside, till today it is not know if german uran (or how much) was used in Fatman and Littleboy.
After the surender of germany a german submarine was on the way to Japan with some japanese soldiers. (After the decission to surrender to the US they commited suicide.) This boat was loaded with Uran for the japanese research. There are still rmours that this uran was used to build the bombs.

Enforcer572005
02-15-2006, 06:25 AM
the history channel had a good show recently, something like japanese secret weapons. the JAAF was gonna produce a near copy of hte 262, while the navy did produce the kika, but it was too late to see action, as these guys have said.

And where is htat museum wiht the kikka and the 163 clone? I didnt even know any of those still existed.

nakamura_kenji
02-15-2006, 06:35 AM
nakajima kikka is smithsonian national airospace musem think

j8m1 is Planes of Fame Museum

http://www.planesoffame.org/aircraft.php

j2m3 raiden also

SeaFireLIV
02-15-2006, 06:36 AM
The Japanese me163 is certainly a surprising picture. I`d like to know where these came from...

Why is `jap` offensive? It`s just half of the word Japan? I`m serious here.

nakamura_kenji
02-15-2006, 06:44 AM
seafire see last post museam in all america p_q

j8m1 shusui info
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/j8m.html#RTFToC1 (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/%7Epettypi/elevon/baugher_other/j8m.html#RTFToC1)

nakajima kikka
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/kikka.html#RTFToC1 (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/%7Epettypi/elevon/baugher_other/kikka.html#RTFToC1)

J_Anonymous explain much better me than why offensive
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8341089904/p/3

ForkTailedDevil
02-15-2006, 07:08 AM
If I could figure out how to load them up, I have a bunch of great pictures from the Planes of Fame museum when I was there last month.

MrOblongo
02-15-2006, 07:10 AM
It dont need to be in 1944 ... prototypes existed since 1942(?). And at that time germans could move more freely though the world.

Stafroty
02-15-2006, 07:10 AM
blueprints as tech sharing, as having same enemies? would it have been worth for Japan or Germany not to help eachothers??

NagaSadow84
02-15-2006, 07:11 AM
Though Japan had bought a Tiger I in 1943 (for 645.000 RM by the way €" twice the German price) it was never delivered. Instead it was loaned by the Wehrmacht.

Also you should look at all the new information about the German atomic projects. Army, Navy, SS and even the postal service had their own projects! The one of the SS combined with the Kriegsmarine (if I remember correctly) successful with a test in March 1945 in Thuringia. Allegedly there is even a recording of the explosion in some russian archive

Stafroty
02-15-2006, 07:36 AM
own skin became more important as it was seen that war was over, without admitting that in high command in public http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

it was just time saving , for getting time to get under less evil power, which was only less evil http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

well, not even that:

when east germany was again connected to West germany, or vice versa. Allercic reactions what childrens had, jumped skyhigh as the cleaness rate grow.. no more tolerance against anything in too clean enviroment, thats the very same issue why people got so often food poisoning, even if we are eating thousands of times cleaner food than 50 years ago http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

think about that, as well.

berg417448
02-15-2006, 08:55 AM
Info about the transport submarine U-234:

http://www.uboat.net/boats/u234.htm

luftluuver
02-15-2006, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by kearsarge007:
How did the germans shiped this plane to their ally?
both of this country is finished by 1944 when this plane became operational!
these two "Axis" are surrounded by the allies!

this photo does not have enough details on how it got to japan,Any info about this photo? Not hard when the photo was taken in Washington DC in Aug 1946.

The Me262B-1a/U1 is T2-160/FE-610, WNr 110306 formally <span class="ev_code_RED">red 9</span> of 10./NJG11. The P-80 in the background is 485461.

SeaFireLIV
02-15-2006, 09:55 AM
nakamura_kenji, Thankyou. I understand more now why.

Waldo.Pepper
02-15-2006, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kearsarge007:
How did the germans shiped this plane to their ally?
both of this country is finished by 1944 when this plane became operational!
these two "Axis" are surrounded by the allies!

this photo does not have enough details on how it got to japan,Any info about this photo? Not hard when the photo was taken in Washington DC in Aug 1946.

The Me262B-1a/U1 is T2-160/FE-610, WNr 110306 formally <span class="ev_code_RED">red 9</span> of 10./NJG11. The P-80 in the background is 485461. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

Texan...
02-15-2006, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by ricey2005:
some tiger tanks were captured as well.

No.

The Japanese wanted some Tiger Is and had some initial agreements for a purchase but in the end none were exchanged.

http://www.tiger-tank.com/secure/photos/2399_b_5_sm.jpg



A photograph apparently showing two Japanese Army officers in a Tiger I during a visit to Germany in the winter of 1943. Accounts suggest that a Tiger was to be supplied to Japan in October 1943 but ended up with SS Pz Abt 101instead.

kearsarge007
02-15-2006, 10:35 AM
This is the home page of the picture of ME-262 night fighter that i posted
http://www.flyingknights.net
Thanks for clearing this things up!
The story about this "trades" is *Ironic* http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

GerritJ9
02-15-2006, 01:41 PM
The Japanese Ambassador to Germany, Baron Oshima, arranged the purchase of an early Panther Ausf. D as well as a Tiger. In the event, neither was shipped to Japan. Shipping by submarine would have been out of the question. While the internals and smaller external fittings could have been stowed aboard a sub, the turret and hull would have been another matter.
Blueprints could have been shipped, and were for quite a few items. The Me.163 blueprints were lost when the submarine transporting them was sunk en route to Japan and the Shusui was developed with just a few photos and an operating manual as a guide. And yes, Mauser MG151s were also shipped to Japan, some perhaps by surface blockade runner.
In reverse, Germany was so impressed by the Ki.46 that at one point there was serious discussion about licence manufacturing of this aeroplane, but nothing came of it.
As for Japan manufacturig the Panther and/or Tiger, the engine alone would have given Japanese industry headaches. Like the DB601, it has a roller bearing crankshaft and at that time Japanese industry was not capable of manufacturing ball and roller bearings to the required accuracy-one of the reasons the Ha40 was so unreliable.

GreyBeast
02-15-2006, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by kearsarge007:
But if this is possible,maybe Hitler did not die in berlin at all,He embark on a U-boat to asia! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Hitler escaped to the USA and his grandson is George W. Bush.

Skycat_2
02-15-2006, 02:34 PM
My recollection is that Japanese U-boats were regular visitors to the German submarine base(s) on the coast of Southern France. I can't remember the course the submarines would take; I suppose they had to go around the tip of Africa? Perhaps the U-boats were also going around Russia to Norway. Anyhow, there is photographic evidence of a Japanese submarine crew touring Paris and I think I saw a picture of a commander meeting with Hitler's staff.

From the descriptions I read, the technology exchange was usually a transfer of important components like an example of the Me-262's Jumo engine along with the blueprints to build the rest of the plane. (This is recollection only on my part so don't take it as gospel.)

kearsarge007
02-16-2006, 12:37 AM
Skycat_2: <span class="ev_code_RED"> Perhaps the U-boats were also going around Russia to Norway</span>

You mean under the arctic icecaps?some U-boats are designed to operate w/out having to recharge their batteries on the surface!

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Hey...have anyone ever heard of the expedition by the Nazi's to find the hole in the arctic circle?some nazi scientist believe in the theory of the "hallow erath" I read this on the book *Mystic Places"</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Hitler sent some scientist to the Arctic in search of the hole http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

MercilessFatBoy
02-16-2006, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
The Japanese me163 is certainly a surprising picture. I`d like to know where these came from...

Why is `jap` offensive? It`s just half of the word Japan? I`m serious here.

Jap is diminutive..... some say compared to ape.. duno why.... but imagen when you were growing up. and they called u diminutive names.... i think u didnt enjoy it... just dont use the J WORD NO MORE..... it is not a reason of u belive it is wrong or not... i dont call ppl B word, not because i think it is ofensive... just because they may get ofended

MercilessFatBoy
02-16-2006, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by kearsarge007:
Skycat_2: <span class="ev_code_RED"> Perhaps the U-boats were also going around Russia to Norway</span>

You mean under the arctic icecaps?some U-boats are designed to operate w/out having to recharge their batteries on the surface!

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Hey...have anyone ever heard of the expedition by the Nazi's to find the hole in the arctic circle?some nazi scientist believe in the theory of the "hallow erath" I read this on the book *Mystic Places"</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Hitler sent some scientist to the Arctic in search of the hole http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

i tough they were researching just the weather... havent you ever heard the story about the german weather men playing mouse and cat wiht american units in the north pole?

woofiedog
02-16-2006, 01:52 AM
Links:
http://www.stormbirds.com/squadron/planes/555.htm
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/me262.html
http://www.dvhaa.org/
http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/db.cgi?db=default&...=1&WerkNummer=*&nh=2 (http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/db.cgi?db=default&uid=default&view_records=1&WerkNummer=*&nh=2)
http://www.indianamilitary.org/FreemanAAF/Ships/Richard...0Gatling/Gatling.htm (http://www.indianamilitary.org/FreemanAAF/Ships/Richard%20J%20Gatling/Gatling.htm)
http://www.pewteraircraft.com/LUFTWAFFE/Me262NIGHT/Me262night.htm
http://www.trains-n-planes.com/ocw/loo/loo07.htm
http://www.dvhaa.org/me262.htm

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg0174.jpg

kearsarge007
02-16-2006, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by MercilessFatBoy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kearsarge007:
Skycat_2: <span class="ev_code_RED"> Perhaps the U-boats were also going around Russia to Norway</span>

You mean under the arctic icecaps?some U-boats are designed to operate w/out having to recharge their batteries on the surface!

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Hey...have anyone ever heard of the expedition by the Nazi's to find the hole in the arctic circle?some nazi scientist believe in the theory of the "hallow erath" I read this on the book *Mystic Places"</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Hitler sent some scientist to the Arctic in search of the hole http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

i tough they were researching just the weather... havent you ever heard the story about the german weather men playing mouse and cat wiht american units in the north pole? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm unaware of that story!...Do you have some links abou this "cat & mouse game"between this folks?


B U T I AM A W A R E OF T H I S ! ! ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
http://www.spaceg.com/multimedia/Iraq/Message%20from%20Iraqi%20kids.jpg

Skarphol
02-16-2006, 05:27 AM
The german sub U-864 (type IX D-2) that was found west of Norway in 2003 are supposed to contain a complete Me-163 rocket interceptor, and two JuMo 004 jet-enginges for the Me-262. Details of the cargo are a litle bit scetchy, though. The sub is split in two by a british torpedo, but the stern is quite undamaged and stands about 15m up from the oceanfloor, indicating that it is still airtight.
As the sub was loaded with a lot of mercury for the japanese, there are plans to raise or cover the sub in order to remove the danger of pollution.

Skarphol

luftluuver
02-16-2006, 05:48 AM
I just sent an email off to the site telling them that the 262 caption is incorrect.

djetz
02-16-2006, 07:18 AM
Shortening words can sometimes lead to offense. I found myself on this forum typing something about a "jap plane" then went back and typed "Japanese" in full, for exactly the reasons people are discussing here. People reading this don't know me personally, so they might think that I was using the term "jap" in a derogatory way, even though no insult was intended and I was just using it as an abreviation.

If you know someone in real life, and they know you, then you can use whatever words you like. I had a Dutch friend who I nicknamed "Clogger" 'cause we had a conversation about how some people think everyone in the Netherlands wears clogs. But I asked her, the first time I used the word, if she was alright with it. She thought it was funny, as it was intended, so everything was cool. But I wouldn't use the word to a Dutch person I didn't know, because they might take it as an insult.

That's the point - we're on the internet, no-one knows how you're using a word, so it's simply good manners to avoid using a word that might possibly be offensive. It is not about people "telling you what to do" or some juvenile thing like that, it's about having respect for others.

Personally, I'm an Aussie and my ancestry is Irish/Scottish, and if anyone wants to call me a Paddy-Jock, that's fine by me. I don't find those terms offensive at all. I don't particularly like being called "anglo-saxon" - not because I have anything against the english or the germans, just because it's inaccurate. My ancestors were Celts, a different race. I'm OK with being called "caucasian" even though none of my ancestors came from anywhere near the Caucasus, because "caucasian" has come to mean "white person" and that's close enough for me.

luftluuver
02-16-2006, 07:42 AM
I'm OK with being called "caucasian" even though none of my ancestors came from anywhere near the Caucasus, because "caucasian" has come to mean "white person" and that's close enough for me. Your ancesters, mine to, did come from the Caucasus if you go back far enough.

Stafroty
02-16-2006, 08:11 AM
how can we have coca-cola all around world, do the export it from USA to everywhere?

djetz
02-16-2006, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
Your ancesters, mine too, did come from the Caucasus if you go back far enough.

Go back further, and we're all from Africa. Go back even further than that, and all us mammals are small furry creatures dodging between the feet of dinosaurs. Go back as far as life goes, and all life was just microbes...

Depends on how far you want to take it. I was saying that my Celtic ancestors were a separate culture as far back as you can trace cultures.

But everyone is a mongrel, I would have a bit of Nordic and a bit of Anglo in my family tree for sure, and no doubt if you went far enough you'd find a bit of everything. No race is "pure" anything, if you take it back far enough. Since the Celts were invaded by the anglo-saxons, the Romans, and the Normans, and there has always been a steady flow of people migrating in every direction, especially within europe, none of us white folks can claim to be "pure" anything.

Even "caucasian" has no real meaning, since it includes people from India and the middle east, some of whom are pretty dark-skinned. Read the wikipedia entry for Caucasoid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasoid) which will explain better than I can.

kearsarge007
02-16-2006, 08:42 AM
There are only (5) groups of people related to each other if we are talking about (1) common modern ancestor
This people share some common physical features!
*But all of this people share 1 common super ancestor*....and it venture out of africa to poppulate the rest of the globe.


[Aborigines]
[Caucasian,Indian,middle eastern,Indo european]
[Eskimo,Mongoloids,Native americans]
[Negroid]
[malayman or polynesian]

This is according to Spencer wells study sponsored by National Geographic

Stafroty
02-16-2006, 10:16 AM
we still, share this planet with will to control others under our rules.

and use others to make own life easier.

Skycat_2
02-16-2006, 01:09 PM
I found the full article that I remembered reading in World War II magazine:
http://historynet.com/wwii/blunderwaterconvoy/index.html

Here's a selection that is relevant to this thread:

Later, the Germans (at Lorient) hosted the entire (Japanese) crew at Château de Trévarez before sending them by special train to Paris. While his crew enjoyed the City of Light, Kinashi traveled to Berlin to be decorated with the Iron Cross by the Führer. As the Japanese relaxed, their hosts removed four outdated anti-aircraft guns from their submarine and replaced them with heavier 37mm Krupp anti-aircraft guns and one 20mm Mauser. In addition, a HWK 509A-1 rocket motor that was used on the Messerschmitt Me-163 Komet rocket interceptor and a Jumo 004B axial-flow turbojet used on the Messerschmitt Me-262 jet fighter were loaded aboard. I-29 also received drawings of the Isotta-Fraschini torpedo boat engine, a V-1 buzz bomb fuselage, acoustic mines, bauxite ore and mercury-radium amalgam. There is also evidence to suggest that I-29 carried a quantity of U-235 uranium oxide, which after refining could have been used in an atomic bomb. Two officers were entrusted with blueprints of the Me-163 and Me-262 jet fighters and plans for rocket launch accelerators. They also received plans for a glider bomb and radar equipment. Finally, 20 more Enigma coding machines were stuffed aboard. Loaded with vital military plans and hardware, I-29 departed Lorient on April 16.

On June 11, the sub passed I-52 in the South Atlantic. The submarines did not communicate, but Kinashi picked up some German radio traffic addressed to I-52. Eighteen days later, I-29 entered the Indian Ocean and on July 13 rendezvoused with its air escort. The next day the sub passed through the Straits of Malacca and arrived safely at Singapore. At the former Royal Navy base I-29's passengers disembarked with their plans and documents and proceeded by air to Japan. Most of the scientific cargo, however, remained aboard.

Anxious as to the exact whereabouts of the Japanese sub, Allied code-breakers were greatly relieved when they intercepted a signal that indicated its arrival in Singapore. Relief quickly turned to alarm when, on the heels of the first intercept, a message from Berlin to Tokyo was received that gave the details of the submarine's strategic cargo. Aware of the frightening potential of what was being carried in I-29's hold, Allied intelligence began working around the clock to devise a way to intercept the submarine before it could reach Japan.

Their prayers were answered on July 20, when Kinashi transmitted his proposed route for the last leg of the trip. The U.S. Navy's Fleet Radio Unit, Pacific (FRUPAC) intercepted and deciphered the message. FRUPAC alerted Vice Adm. Charles A. Lockwood of I-29's planned route, cargo and schedule from Singapore to Japan. The admiral then sent a top-secret signal to Commander W.D. Wilkins with that information. Wilkins commanded a wolf pack that included his own USS Tilefish as well as the submarines Rock and Sawfish. He was told that it was imperative that I-29 be intercepted and its cargo prevented from reaching Japan.

Unaware that his travel plans had been discovered, on the morning of July 22, Kinashi left Singapore. Three days later, he reported sighting a surfaced enemy submarine. The next afternoon, as I-29 was itself running on the surface through the western entrance of the Balintang Channel in the Luzon Strait, a lookout on Commander Alan B. Banister's Sawfish sighted the sub. Banister fired four torpedoes at I-29. Three of them hit, and the Japanese submarine exploded and sank almost immediately.

Three of the Japanese crew were blown clear of their doomed boat, and one of them managed to swim ashore to a small Philippine island and report on I-29's fate. The loss of the aircraft engines slowed the Japanese jet program, but their blueprints, flown to Tokyo, arrived safely. They were used immediately to develop the Nakajima Kikka ("orange blossom") based on the Me-262 and the Mitsubishi J8MI Shusui ("sword stroke") based on the Me-163.

BfHeFwMe
02-16-2006, 01:15 PM
The Japanese servicemen photographed in France were more likely members of an Imperial Battalion trapped in Europe. These guys were part of the defensive fighting forces on the coast during the D-day landings. All sorts of strange units there, guess they weren't really expecting anything. There was also a unit comprised of Indian soldiers who switched from the British army after captivity.

The Fw-200 Condor as appears in game was designed upon request by the Japanese government to a maritime war configuration with added gondola. The Germans liked it and made it the standard production model.

Later they used it to make regular high value shuttle runs of parts and personel from Berlin to Tokyo. It was possible while they still held enough territory in the Soviet Union, with route refueling stops in Afghanistan and occupied China.

Texan...
02-16-2006, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by djetz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
Your ancesters, mine too, did come from the Caucasus if you go back far enough.

Go back further, and we're all from Africa. Go back even further than that, and all us mammals are small furry creatures dodging between the feet of dinosaurs. Go back as far as life goes, and all life was just microbes...

Depends on how far you want to take it. I was saying that my Celtic ancestors were a separate culture as far back as you can trace cultures.

But everyone is a mongrel, I would have a bit of Nordic and a bit of Anglo in my family tree for sure, and no doubt if you went far enough you'd find a bit of everything. No race is "pure" anything, if you take it back far enough. Since the Celts were invaded by the anglo-saxons, the Romans, and the Normans, and there has always been a steady flow of people migrating in every direction, especially within europe, none of us white folks can claim to be "pure" anything.

Even "caucasian" has no real meaning, since it includes people from India and the middle east, some of whom are pretty dark-skinned. Read the wikipedia entry for Caucasoid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasoid) which will explain better than I can. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bunko, God created man. Man didn't begin as some stinkin' "microbe."

Skycat_2
02-16-2006, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
The Japanese servicemen photographed in France were more likely members of an Imperial Battalion trapped in Europe.
The photos I saw were in the print version of the article I linked to above. The web version doesn't include them however. As I recall, one of the photos was of all the Japanese submarine crewmen in their dress uniforms touring Paris in a very close military formation, each man with one hand on the shoulder of the man in front of him.

Heliopause
02-17-2006, 01:09 AM
Picture was indeed taken in Washington D.C. during 1946.
Here is another angle of the same scene....
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/PauseHelio/262vswash.jpg

csThor
02-17-2006, 01:59 AM
By Texan...:
Bunko, God created man. Man didn't begin as some stinkin' "microbe."

If that isn't irony I'd say spare us that medieval creationist BS. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Amon26
02-17-2006, 02:29 AM
Figured this would be a nice place to plug one of my screenshots of a gorgeous ME 262 skin I used to have

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/amon25/jp262.jpg

*sob* its gone now tho..

Heliopause
02-17-2006, 03:58 AM
Amon 26, sent me a PM with your E-mail adress.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Corsair_Fanatic
02-17-2006, 06:17 AM
I'd be very curious to see what they manage to recover from that UBoat if they salvage it. Doubt much is left of the 163, since it was mainly built out of wood.

ForkedTailDevil: Did you go to the one in AZ or the one in CA? I'm going to the Pima Air Museum next month (and am planning on taking a ride in the AZ Confederate....err.....Commemorative Air Force's SNJ while I'm in the area).

Skarphol
02-17-2006, 06:36 AM
Well, it is hoped that since the rear part of the sub stands up from the seabed, it might still be airtight. Thus the cargo would be in a good condition, not exposed to water. This has yet to be confirmed though. Pictures of the wreck can be seen in this norwegian newspaper article: http://www.bt.no/miljo/article212064.ece.

The last picture shows the stern wich is hoped to be containg undamaged cargo.

Skarphol

woofiedog
02-17-2006, 06:38 AM
Skycat_2... Thank's for the article on the I-29 Submarine. Very interesting reading.

Here is a bit more about the I-29.

Link: http://www.combinedfleet.com/I-29.htm

http://www.portorfordlifeboatstation.org/sub.jpg
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">B-1 Class Submarine

General characteristics
Displacement: 2,584 tons standard / 3,654 tons submerged
Length: 108.5 m (356.5 feet)
Beam: 9.3 m (30.5 feet)
Draught: 5.12 m (16.8 feet)
Equipment: 2-shaft diesel (12,400 hp) and electric motor (2,000 hp)
Range: 14,000 nautical miles at 16 knots
Speed: 23 knots surface, 8 knots submerged
Armaments: 6 x 533 mm TT fwd + 1 x 14 cm/50 cal. (17 Torpedoes) + one 'Type 0' Small Reconnaissance E14Y1 "Glen" seaplane
Complement: 101 officers and men
Maximum depth: 100 m (333 ft.) </span>

CD_kp84yb
02-17-2006, 07:29 AM
The recovering is planned for 2007, so you have to be patience. The one in Norway that is.
Calculations have been made .

surch for U-864report.pdf

J_Anonymous
02-19-2006, 10:46 AM
I know a few things about "Kikka", the Japanese jet similar to Me-262. But I was so upset earlier about "something" in this and other threads that I was reluctant to share my knowledge here. That "something" may sound trivial for others, but that's a rather serious issue for all people with Japanese ancestry. Thank you for some folks above and elsewhere who helped me calm down my nerve. I should help you in turn by sharing my knowledge here.

I recently mentioned elsewhere about a Japanese book entitled "The Zero Fighter" by Mr. Jiro Horikoshi (the chief designer of A6M Zero) and Mr. Masatake Okumiya (a former G.S.O. of aircommand, IJN). There is a chapter in this book with descriptions of all kind of IJN airplanes viewed from the engineering side, and a few pages are devoted to Kikka. Besides what is already described in a link given by nakamura_kenji, some interesting things are mentioned in the book.

1) Most of the crates containing engineering information, that had arrived safely by I-29 submarine to Singapore, were lost when the sub was later sunk. Lt. Comdr. of Engineering, IJN, Mr. Eiichi Iwaya flew out Singapore and returned to Japan in July 1944 with only a tiny fraction of what he had gathered in Germany.

2) The Japanese engineers had already been developping "Ne-12" (a.k.a. RT-10) turbojet engine on their own. But the engine was prone to malfunctions, and the thrust was not satisfactory, hence they decided to switch to "Ne-20" engine with new designs. Ne-20 was the first and the smallest of Japanese turbojet engines that utilized (I am not sure if the following English engineering terms I venture to use are correct) "axial flow air compressor system" instead of "centrifugal air compressor system". The IDEA OF THE AXIAL FLOW TECHNIQUE WAS MOTIVATED BY ONE SIMPLE SKETCH DRAWING OF BMW-003A ENGINE that manged to reach Japan by air AND A STUDY NOTE COMPILED BY LT.CMDR. IWAYA IN GERMANY WHEN HE INSPECTED JUMO-004B ENGINE. The book is vague about exactly what information managed to reach Japan, but apparently just one sketch drawing and a notebook, perhaps some more.

3) It took only 4 months for them to produce the first Ne-20 engine with the new design, and the engine test began in May 1945. These engineers had to overcome many engieering problems, hence a committee was set up to assisit them, including some stellar scientists and engineers, such as Professor Nishina. (There is a famous theorem of quantum mechanics that bears his name).

4) The first test flight of Kikka was made by the most experienced IJN test pilot Lt.Commdr. Takaoka on August 7, 1945 (eight days before the end of the war) at Kisarazu IJN airbase, without raising landing gears. It flew for 15 minutes without troubles. The second test with a full load of fuel was attempted on August 11, 1945, with additional rocket engines attached to enhance the thrust during take off. Since the rockets created a large force to pull up the nose of Kikka, the test pilot could not control it by ladders, and he could not observe the front of the cockit well. 9 seconds later, the rocket fuel ran out and the nose angle went down. The pilot didn't find any anomalies in gauges in the cockpit, hence he misinterpreted the sudden changes of the nose angle as puncture of a tire. Since he had still 1000 meters left on the tarmac, he decided to abort take-off and used breaks, but Kikka flew into the ocean and was seriously damaged. The pilot was not injured.

5) At the time of Japanese surrender, 12 additional Kikka were being assembled, and several dozens of the Ne-20 engines were manufactured.

So, it flew for 15 minutes! Does that mean we may have a Kikka in the paid "1946 what-if add-on"?! (Maybe not....... Kikka would be useless unless we raise landing gears, eh?)

zugfuhrer
02-19-2006, 10:57 AM
How was the radar technology in Japan. Today Japan is famous for its electronics.
As far as I know the lack of radar was one big advantage for the allies against the Japanese forces.

The american submarines was very succesful, and it was the radar and the code-brakers that made the german Submarine forces in the atlantic unsuccesful.
How was the development of radar in japan?
Did they get some from germany?

Art-J
02-19-2006, 11:17 AM
I know they did have radars on the warships and anti-sub planes during the final months of the war, but it was already too late and these devices were usually "a step behind" their allied counterparts. I don't know what the German's part in Japanese radar developement actually was. Any experts out there to shed some light on this question? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Cheers - Art

J_Anonymous
02-19-2006, 12:57 PM
I am not an expert but.... They did have radars, but my recollection is that they could not measure the altitudes of the incoming airplanes even in 1945. In other words, Japan's radar technology as of 1945 was lagged by a few years. President G. Bush's plane was shot down over Chichi-jima (Chichi island) in 1945, when the U.S. was trying very hard to shut down the Japanese radar stations on the island. These radars provided the early warning signals of U.S. air-raid over Tokyo etc., and interceptors took off from bases in the main islands.

The Japanese engineering could not keep up with the very fast development from 1939 to 1945 in the U.S., UK. and Germany in most arears of advanced technologies, such as piston and jet engines, radars, etc. Basically, being a new comer to industrial world, they lacked the broad base in scientists and engineers, and manufacturing technologies as well. (Mr. Horikoshi explains in the aforementioned book why it took so long for them to develop new aircrafts after A6M Zero, such as J2M3 Raiden, along this line.) If you know Japanese history even a tiny bit, this is not surprising. Japan missed all the scientific and engineering developments for about 400 years prior to the mid 19th century, because the Samurai government took the isolationist policy and banned virtaully all contacts with foreigners. They needed to shut out westerners to avoid colonial conquest by European nations early on, and later by the U.S. As you might know, Japan was one of the only few nations in the whole world that remained independent without colonial occupations. The price Japan paid was 400 years laggs of high tech developments! (Don't ever complain 0.3 sec laggs in on-line gaming....)

As for radars, I once read an interesting story. A Japanese theoretical physicist named S. Tomonaga worked on two things during 1941-1945. One, he developed a theory with which he shared a Nobel Prize with Americans after the ww2.

The other, he did calculations to optimize high frequency radio transmissions in cylidrical tubings (similar to coaxial cables we use today for TV cables). He was later stunned to find after the war that Americans took a simpler approach, and used rectangular shapes for high frequency radio transmission lines. Theoretical calculations and manufacturing are simpler for the American approach, and he was impresed by American's pragmatic attitude. (And I guess Americans were impressed by his physics theory. The funny thing is, Tomonaga was too smart to take more pragmatic approach --- he was so smart he was not intimidated by awfully complicated formulae in theory, and didn't pay attention to manufacturing aspects.)

Someone mentioned above the lack of sophisticated ball-bearing manufacturing technology in Japan before 1945. Very true. By 1980's, however, Japanese manufacturers dominated the business, and that probably affected your life (at least in the U.S.) --- The market of TV video players were dominated by SONY, Panasonic etc., and that was in part because machining technologies of high-precision ball-bearings (which make the reproducing the TV images clear and even) were dominated by the Japanese high-tech machining companies.

Edit : Forgot to mention. Radars need generating, transmiting, and detecting high frequency electro-magnetic waves. The radar's frequency range is a trivial engineering today, but it was a high-tech in 1930-1940's.

J_Anonymous
02-25-2006, 01:54 PM
It turned out that the completed Ne-20 engine used for Kikka still exists, as shown in this web.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/KIKKA/ne-20.html

KG51-Edelweis
02-25-2006, 03:47 PM
Well there where a lot more German trips to Japan via submarine than most think (Monsun U-Boots) which operated from 1943 to 1945
Here is a bit copied from a site only on U-boots,
this site someone already mentioned at the begining of this topic:
The idea of stationing German U-boats in Penang or Sabang for operations in the Indian Ocean was first proposed by the Japanese in December 1942. As no supplies were available at either location the idea was turned down (although a number of U-cruisers from the first wave operated around the Cape at the time).

The idea was raised again in the spring 1943. Additionally, the Japanese requested 2 U-boats to be handed over for copying. Although Doenitz saw no point in such a handover, it was decided to give a type IXC boat.

As long as targets were available in the Atlantic, Doenitz considered sending U-boats on a large scale to the Far East as unprofitable. However, on 5 April, 1943 it was decided to send U-178 to Penang to establish the naval base there. U-511 sailed soon after to be eventually given to the Japanese in return for rubber:
boat commander sailed returned
U-511 Kptlt. Fritz Schneewind France 10/05/43 Kure 7/08/43

It is also reported that U-511 arrived at Penang around 17 July, 1943 as the first German U-boat to enter the base (before U-178).

U-511 scored some success while on the passage to Japan. The boat carried Vice-Admiral Nomura (the Japanese Naval Attache) and in September 1943 was recommissioned as RO-500. U-511's crew was to be a spare crew for the boats which were later to operate from the Japanese-held bases.

After the May 1943 crisis it was decided to look for less strongly defended areas and the idea of sending boats to the Far East was finally approved. Indian Ocean was the only region with almost peace-time shipping arrangement and still with U-boats radius of action.

As the result arrangements were made to replenish U-cruisers still operating around the Cape and to send a new wave of boats for the attack in the Arabian Sea. The latter was scheduled for the end of September 1943 - right after the monsoon period. Because of this the group was named Monsun. The group was to sail in June 1943 at the latest.
3.2 The first wave of Monsun boats

9 type IXC and 2 type IXD/2 boats were scheduled for the attack in the Arabian Sea and sailed as group Monsun:
boat commander sailed returned
U-200 Kptlt. Heinrich Schoder Norway 11/06/43 sunk 24/06/43
U-188 Kptlt. Siegfried Ludden France 30/06/43 Penang 31/10/43
U-168 Kptlt. Helmuth Pich France 3/07/43 Penang 11/11/43
U-509 Kptlt. Werner Witte France 3/07/43 sunk 15/07/43
U-514 Kptlt. Hans-Jurgen Auffermann France 3/07/43 sunk 8/07/43
U-532 Frgkpt. Ottoheinrich Junker France 3/07/43 Penang 31/10/43
U-183 Krvkpt. Heinrich Schafer France 07/43 Penang 27/10/43
U-506 Kptlt. Erich Wurdemann France 6/07/43 sunk 12/07/43
U-533 Kptlt. Helmut Hennig France 6/07/43 sunk 16/10/43
U-516 Kptlt. Hans-Rutger Tillessen France 8/07/43 France 23/08/43
U-847 Kptlt. Herbert Kuppish Norway 29/07/43 sunk 27/08/43

Initially U-462 was assigned to the group for refuelling some 300 miles east of St Paul's Rock. A second replenishment was scheduled south of Mauritius from a surface tanker. However, U-462 did not break through the Bay of Biscay in 2 attempts being damaged by aircraft and returned for long repairs on 6/07/43. As most of the Monsun boats were already on the way another tanker, U-487 was assigned but she was sunk on 13 July, 1943 without refuelling Monsun boats.

U-200 was sunk south-west of Iceland while on the outward passage on 24 June, 1943. While in transit U-514 was sunk on 8/07/43, U-506 was sunk on 12/07/43 and U-509 on 15/07/43 - all by aircraft.

After the massacre of U-tankers in the summer 1943 emergency fuelling arrangements were needed for U-boats concentrated around the Azores (including Monsun boats).

It was decided to replenish Monsun boats by employing type IXC boats: U-155 and U-160. U-160 was initially diverted to transfer fuel to U-487 (which was short on fuel after numerous refuelling) but arrived too late and was sunk on 14/07/43 - a day after U-487. Eventually U-516 of the Monsun boats was diverted on emergency refuelling duties. The refuelling of the remaining Monsun boats took place 600 miles WNW of Cape Verde Islands between 21/07 and 27/07/43. U-155 transferred fuel to U-183, U-188 and U-168 while U-516 refuelled U-532 and U-533. Both boats came back to France in August 1943.

U-847 was damaged by ice in the Denmark Strait headed for France but it was decided to use her as a tanker. Between 12/08 and 24/08/43 she refuelled the following boats: U-66, U-415, U-230, U-653, U-257, U-172 and U-508. U-847 was a rather inexperienced boat on her first was cruise (having only sailed from Germany to Norway 6/07 - 20/07/43). An excessive use of radio was reported by commanders of refuelled boats. U-847 was sunk by aircraft on 27 Aug, 1943.

Of the initial 11 Monsun U-boats 4 were destroyed in transit and 2 diverted on emergency refuelling duties (1 of which sunk) so effectively only 5 boats managed to break through: U-168, U-183, U-188, U-532 and U-533. They reached the Indian Ocean without further trouble. Between 11/09 and 13/09/43 they took on fuel from the surface tanker Brake, sent from Penang. The rendezvous took place 450 miles south of Mauritius without incident.

Meanwhile the Japanese already started operating in the Arabian Sea (August 1943) and certain arrangements were made to avoid incidents between U-boats and Japanese submarines (attacks on other submarines strictly forbidden). Eventually the Monsun boats were allocated as follows:
U-168 off Bombay (sank 1 ship)
U-183 between Seychelles and the African Coast
U-188 Gulf of Oman (sank 3 ships, also convoy attack)
U-532 south and west coast of India (sank 5 ships)
U-533 Gulf of Aden (lost there)

U-188 experienced torpedo failures due to the hot climate affecting torpedo batteries. All the remaining 4 Monsun boats (after the loss of U-533) entered Penang by the beginning of November 1943. The commanders of U-168 and U-183 had been affected by the strain of the long voyage and the commander of U-183 was later replaced by Kptlt. Fritz Schneewind of U-511.
3.3 Further Monsun operations

After sending the first wave of Monsun boats it was decided to send further boats to make up for the loses of the first wave:
boat commander sailed returned
U-219 Krvkpt. Walter Burghagen Norway 22/10/43 France 1/01/44
U-510 Kptlt. Alfred Eick France 3/11/43 Penang 5/04/44
U-848 Krvkpt. Wilhelm Rollman Germany 18/09/43 sunk 5/11/43
U-849 Kptlt. Heinz-Otto Schultze Germany 2/10/43 sunk 25/11/43
U-850 Krvkpt. Klaus Ewerth Germany 18/11/43 sunk 20/12/43

U-219 was due to lay mines off Cape Town and Colombo but was recalled as a tanker. U-848 and U-849 were destroyed off Ascension while U-850 off the Azores - all by aircraft. U-510 refuelled from U-219 and reached the Indian Ocean where in February and March 1944 she scored hits.

While in the Indian Ocean U-510 joined the boats operating from Penang:
boat commander sailed returned
U-178 Kptlt. Wilhelm Spahr Penang 27/11/43 France 24/05/44
U-532 Frgkpt. Ottoheinrich Junker Penang 4/01/44 Penang 19/04/44
U-188 Kptlt. Siegfried Ludden Penang 9/01/44 France 19/06/44
U-168 Kptlt. Helmuth Pich Penang 7/02/44 Jakarta 24/03/44
U-183 Kptlt. Fritz Schneewind Penang 10/02/44 Penang 21/03/44

The first boat to operate from Penang was U-178, later joined by 4 Monsun boats and U-510 coming from France. U-178 and U-510 refuelled from the surface tanker Charlotte Schliemann on 28 Jan, 1944 stationed 100 miles south-east of Mauritius. U-510 achieved some success in the Indian Ocean. She attacked convoy PA-69 on 23 Feb, 1944 in the Gulf of Aden and scored hits.

The size of Penang flotilla was limited to 5 U-boats due to the dockyard capacity. The Monsun boats were so short of torpedoes that U-532, U-188 and U-183 were ordered to embark strategic materials and come home via the patrol areas in the Indian Ocean.

U-532 was also to refuel from Charlotte Schliemann but bad weather prevented that on 11 Feb, 1944 when 950 miles east of Madagascar. The tanker was then detected by the Allied while refueling U-532 and forced to scuttle. 41 survivors were captured by the British destroyer HMS Relentless and others rescued by U-532. She later was under depth-charge attacks for 3 days.

U-178 transferred some fuel to U-532 on 26 Feb, 1944 and left for France. U-178 was later attacked by aircraft on 8 March, 1944 off the Cape of Good Hope but survived. She was later to meet the eastbound transport UIT-22 but the latter was sunk by aircraft on 11 March, 1944. She arrived at Bordeaux, France with engines almost out of order.

The remaining 5 boats (4 Monsun from Penang and U-510) carried on operations. Another refuelling was scheduled from the tanker Brake in March 1944. This time U-532, U-188 and U-168 searched the area for some time before. On 12/03/44 U-188 and U-532 refuelled but bad weather again interrupted the operation. Later during the day Brake was detected and forced to scuttle. The survivors were rescued by U-168. The boats had to share fuel among themselves. Eventually U-168, U-532 and U-183 were forced to stay in the Far East due to the fuel shortage. Only U-188 could proceed back to Europe where she was paid off.
3.4 More boats sent to the Far East

One of the reasons for disappointing results was the quality and quantity of torpedoes available at Penang. They were derived from German armed merchant cruisers and blockade-runners and suffered badly from the long storage in the tropics. To make up for this special torpedo transports of type VIIF were sent with torpedoes and spares. Also further operational boats were systematically sent to the Far East:
boat commander sailed returned
U-177 Kptlt. Heinz Buchholz France 2/01/44 sunk 6/02/44
U-1062 Oblt. Karl Albrecht Bergen 3/01/44 Penang 19/04/44
U-852 Kptlt. Heinz-Wilhelm Eck Kiel 18/01/44 sunk 3/04/44
U-1059 Oblt. Güter Leupold Norway 12/02/44 sunk 19/03/44
U-843 Kptlt. Oskar Herwartz France 19/02/44 Jakarta 11/06/44
U-801 Kptlt. Hans-Joachim Brans France 26/02/44 sunk 16/03/44
U-851 Krvkpt. Hannes Weing¤rtner France 26/02/44 sunk 03/44
U-181 Frgkpt. Kurt Freiwald France 16/03/44 Penang 8/08/44
U-196 Krvkpt. Eitel-Friedrich Kentrat France 16/03/44 Penang 10/08/44
U-537 Kptlt. Peter Schrewe France 25/03/44 Jakarta 2/08/44
U-859 Kptlt. Johann Jebsen Kiel 4/04/44 sunk 23/09/44
U-860 Frgkpt. Paul Buchel Kiel 11/04/44 sunk 15/06/44
U-198 Oblt. Burkhard Heusinger v. Waldegg France 20/04/44 sunk 12/08/44
U-861 Kptlt. Jürgen Oesten Kiel 20/04/44 Penang 22/09/44
U-490 Oblt. Wilhelm Gerlach Norway 6/05/44 sunk 12/06/44
U-862 Kptlt. Heinrich Timm Norway 3/06/44 Penang 9/09/44
U-863 Kptlt. Dietrich von der Esch Norway 26/07/44 sunk 29/09/44
U-180 Oblt. Rolf Riesen France 20/08/44 sunk 22/08/44
U-195 Oblt. Friedrich Steinfeldt France 20/08/44 Jakarta 28/12/44
U-219 Krvkpt. Walter Burghagen France 23/08/44 Jakarta 11/12/44
U-871 Kptlt. Erwin Ganzer Norway 31/08/44 sunk 26/09/44
U-864 Krvkpt. Ralf-Reimar Wolfram Bergen 5/02/45 sunk 9/02/45
U-234 Kptlt. Johann-Heinrich Fehler 1/04/45 surrendered

U-852 sank the Greek ship Peleus on 13/03/44 and survivors were machine-gunned in the water. The commander and officers of U-852 were later captured and after a trial sentenced to death. This was the only proven case of machine-gunning survivors by a German U-boat.

Not all the boats were equipped with schnorkel. Those equipped include: U-180, U-195, U-219, U-863, U-864, U-234.

U-198 reached the Indian Ocean, scored some hits but was sunk by A/S vessels with aircraft assistance. U-859 also survived the Atlantic passage and the Indian Ocean patrol where she scored hits but was sunk by a British submarine off Penang.

U-843 was damaged by aircraft in the Atlantic but reached Penang.

U-859 was torpedoed by an Allied submarine off Penang after a 6 month patrol when she scored hits.

U-180 and U-195 were the only type IXD/1 boats with unreliable experimental fast-running diesel engines. They were completely converted to transports with new diesels. Together with U-219, a minelayer also adapted as a transport, they sailed as a part of the evacuation from French ports. They were bound for the Far East. U-180 was mined but the others reached Jakarta.

U-490 was sent to the Far East to make up for the loss of supply ships in the Indian Ocean.

U-861 initially operated off the Brazilian coast.

U-537 was refuelled by U-183 around 25/06/44.

Of the boats listed above U-852, U-198, U-181, U-537, U-196, U-862, U-861 and U-859 scored hits. The sinkings in the Indian Ocean started on 1/04/44 and ceased in September 1944 when all the boats were either in port or destroyed. The peak moment came in July and August 1944.

It can be seen that the effort was gradually shifted from combat missions to transport missions. Some of the boats were even permanently converted to transports like U-180, U-195, U-219, U-234 and others. How important the transport missions were can be judged from the fact that even in the spring 1945 U-boats were still sailing to the Far East. Some of them with interesting cargoes indeed - like well-known U-234. U-874 and U-875 were loading some 170 tons of mercury, lead and optical glass but never left European waters.

3.5 Operations from Penang

Very few patrols with the intention to return back to the Far East bases were attempted by the Monsun boats. U-168, U-183 and U-532 all made a patrol early in 1944 but in fact U-183 and U-532 were intended to sail to Europe. Further actions include:
boat commander sailed returned
U-183 Kptlt. Fritz Schneewind Penang 17/05/44 Penang 7/07/44
U-181 Frgkpt. Kurt Freiwald Penang 19/10/44 Jakarta 5/01/45
U-862 Krvkpt. Heinrich Timm Jakarta 18/11/44 Jakarta 15/02/45

U-183 operated off the south coast of India. Around 25 June, 1944 she refuelled eastbound U-537. She sank just 1 ship. U-181 sank 1 ship (and arrived at Penang according to the evacuation orders given meanwhile to the Far East U-boat flotilla.



U-862 operated in the Pacific off Australia and came close to Sydney as she sank the 7180-ton American steamer Robert J. Walker off the southern New South Wales coast off Montague Island about 160 miles from Sydney on 24 Dec 1944. After which U-862 did not venture further north, to the Sydney area, rather she retraced her route back to the Indian Ocean. U-862 was the only U-boat to operate in the Pacific.

As far as I know when Germany surrendered five submarines where handed over to the Japanese.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-saito/images11/Mark.jpg

Willey
02-25-2006, 04:55 PM
Japan also got a FW-190A-5... there's a photo around on the net - but I bet I can't find it again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Waldo.Pepper
02-25-2006, 05:56 PM
All this is from memory so don't bet the farm on it for absolute accuracy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Japan had some very good radars during the war. The yagi antenna was/is an invention of Japanese origin... though they did not use it. They also has a magnetron that could generate enough power to produce a radar in the cm bandwidth IIRC.
They also were the first to use Window/Duppel/Chaff during the war. They called it - deceiving paper.

See a Radar History of WW2 for more details... and more accurate ones to! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

nakamura_kenji
02-25-2006, 06:38 PM
J1N
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/J1N-9s.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/J1N-14s.jpg

KG51-Edelweis
02-25-2006, 08:20 PM
Talking of transports and submarines I have to think of those huge Japanese submarines
http://www.combinedfleet.com/images/sen_toku.gif
They had up to three planes, the Aichi M6A1 Seiran and parts for a fourth plane!
http://www.combinedfleet.com/images/aichi_m6.gif
I could well imagine a mission in PF with one of these submarines trying to find the U.S. aircraft carriers surfacing getting their aircraft ready for a reconasance flight then scrabbling when a Catalina is see on the horizen, the planes start and the submarine makes its escape below the surface. These planes could be assembled and ready for launch in the dark due to fluorescent paint by four men with in seven minutes!
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-saito/images11/Mark.jpg

J_Anonymous
02-25-2006, 09:39 PM
One of these was sailing to the US west coast at the time of surrender in 1945, correct? I used to have a 1/72 plastic model of this sleek plane, "Seiran" ("Sei" means sunny, "Ran" means wind storm).

I don't remember the details, but one I-type IJN submarine carried a couple of small float planes to the Oregon coast around 1942, and they dropped incendiaries to Oregon's..... forest (I don't understand what kind of strategic significance such a mission had, but I guess they could not think of any easier "targets". I hope nobody got hurt... Oregon coast is beautiful.) I once read an article about this; several decades later, the Japanese pilot was invited to the Oregon town he bombed. He presented the family treasure to the city library or city hall ---a sword inherited from his samurai ancesters. It is now in the showcase of the city.

GreyFox5
02-25-2006, 10:35 PM
Wow, lots of great posts here. I have visited a fort (Fort Stevens) and grounds that was shelled by a Japanese Sub deck gun - Damaging the Baseball backstop.

Info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_United_States_t...II#Attacks_on_Oregon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_United_States_territory_in_North_Americ a_during_World_War_II#Attacks_on_Oregon)

The bombing of Oregon Forests is here on the Web: http://www.portorfordlifeboatstation.org/article1.html

I can't imagine the bravery of doing something like this. Or it was the willingness to get some fresh air and get off that sub! Brave men the Japanese! Must have been months on that boat!

Salute!

KG51-Edelweis
02-26-2006, 05:17 AM
Hi J_Anonymous
here is the site where you might find more information: http://www.combinedfleet.com/ss.htm
I am sure there is more on the web. http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-saito/images11/Mark.jpg

luftluuver
02-26-2006, 07:27 AM
There is a graveyard just off the southern Japanese coast where the USN sank many Japanese sunds including 3 (iirc) of the giant ones.

KG51-Edelweis
02-26-2006, 10:21 AM
Hi luftluuver,
you mean Goto Island?
It is mentioned a few times that the U.S. scuttled several submarines there in 1946.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-saito/images11/Mark.jpg

J_Anonymous
02-26-2006, 04:34 PM
Thank you for the link to Oregon Forests bombing etc.. I enjoyed Oregon Coast vacations already 3 times in my life, as it's so beautiful, and I have been to Coosebay, Bandon, etc. But I didn't know much about the location of this forest bombing.

This story saw a happy ending of some sort, because nobody was playing baseball (in the pitch darkness, of course). But I am sure the Little Leaguers were pretty upset the following weekend.... And I guess they met the pilot and saw his sword years later. I wonder what kind of conversations they had....

Another thing I found interesting is, that the pilot could not participate in the rc mission at Pearl Harbor because of equipment malfunction. I am sure all other participants were treated as heroes back in Japan, and he could not have been very happy about his "bad luck". I guess he proposed the Oregon raid perhaps wanting to do something on his own. The irony of life is, most of the Japanese pilots who raided Pearl Harbor did not survive the war. This submarine pilot did not make much contribution in terms of the war efforts but he left his legacy in history. More importantly, he could play a role in building friendships after the war.... I would like to believe that later in his life he thought he actually had a very good luck.

And I am sure submarine sailors were envious for the pilot's previlidge for fresh air.... I once read that submarine sailors smoked 4 cigarrets at once when they had their 5 minutes on the deck.

Rudi_Jaeger
02-26-2006, 06:09 PM
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2623/kikkagrn16fn.jpg


Saw a pic of this Kikka on previous page. If any are interested, I have this and a couple other versions posted at Flying Legends in the Me262 category. BTW, interesting thread. Cheers!

KG51-Edelweis
02-27-2006, 04:38 PM
Hi J_Anonymous,
glad to help, although I am certain there is more on the internet in Japanese, and that is where I am at a disadvantage! Well I would say it happens time and time again what seems to be a misfortune turns out to be luck in the end! By the way talking of Japanese Pearl Harbour pilots is there anything about a fellow called Dschinitschi Goto?
He is mentioned in a National Geographic but the artical is rather superficial. WWII pilots from Japan or Germany would number very few, thinking of Germany the survivers where either aces that pulled luck in their favor or beginners that where fortunate to survive the crash but badly enough wounded not to fly again, even rarer are submarine crew members as hardly a submarine survived the war.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-saito/images11/Mark.jpg

J_Anonymous
02-27-2006, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by KG51-Edelweis:
Hi J_Anonymous,
glad to help, although I am certain there is more on the internet in Japanese, and that is where I am at a disadvantage! Well I would say it happens time and time again what seems to be a misfortune turns out to be luck in the end! By the way talking of Japanese Pearl Harbour pilots is there anything about a fellow called Dschinitschi Goto?
He is mentioned in a National Geographic but the artical is rather superficial. WWII pilots from Japan or Germany would number very few, thinking of Germany the survivers where either aces that pulled luck in their favor or beginners that where fortunate to survive the crash but badly enough wounded not to fly again, even rarer are submarine crew members as hardly a submarine survived the war.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-saito/images11/Mark.jpg

Can you tell us which issue of the National Geographic magazine (year, month)? (I used to have a monthly subscription for several years).

Here is the list of all pilots who participated in the first wave. (It took a while to find this with Google.....)

http://www007.upp.so-net.ne.jp/togo/human/data/pearl_jpn1.html

This one also lists the 2nd wave.

http://homepage1.nifty.com/kitabatake/rikukaigun36.html

From the first list, it seems that IJN captain Jinichi Goto was on Carrier Akagi, flew a Type 97 (B5N) and conducted torpedo attack in the first wave. His marking was AI-308, and returned to Akagi without any damage.

From some other URL's it seems that he became a flight instructor later in the war, and maybe a "2nd squadron leader" at Hyakuri Base ; most of his colleague instructors died as Kamikaze pilots. Hyakuri is where one of today's JASDF fighter squadrons is based, and i am not sure if he served in IJN as the squad leader, or became the squad leader in the self defense air force after the war.

His name and rank are spelled as, Œ"¤€€¸€€€¸*?"

KG51-Edelweis
02-27-2006, 06:21 PM
Hi J_Anonymous,
it is out of the German copy of the National Geographic from Dec. 1991 I know sometimes there are differances between the English and the German National Geographic.
I thought so they might have bungeled the name!
"sch" is very typical German! Haven´t come across that in romanji writen Japanese yet. The fellow is mentioned as a "bomber pilot" and a leutnant, and that he managed to hit the Oklahoma and return back undamaged, but they don´t mention to which carrier or what plane he flew. There are only three pictures one close up of him in his pilots gear (below writen Photo D. Goto) another taken out of a cockpit showing Ford Island, two planes flying of which one seems to have just landed a hit on one of the anchored battleships as a huge fountain of water can be seen raising beside the ship just behind the climbing plane. The third photo is of him visiting the Yasukuni Jinja. But the artical is very superfical and only goes into a bit more detail about the U.S. side.
Thanks for the correct spelling of his name!
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-saito/images11/Mark.jpg

KG51-Edelweis
02-27-2006, 06:36 PM
Thankyou also for those links! Seem to be very interesting! But it is going to take a bit to translate that! But a good reason to have a look at the dictionaries and put in a bit more effort!
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/nakajima-saito/images11/Mark.jpg

luftluuver
02-27-2006, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by KG51-Edelweis:
Hi luftluuver,
you mean Goto Island?
It is mentioned a few times that the U.S. scuttled several submarines there in 1946.
Can't say but there was a show on TV just resently about the finding of the location and diving(by RPV) on them.

A net search turned up this link, http://webhome.idirect.com/~jproc/news/040921.html (http://webhome.idirect.com/%7Ejproc/news/040921.html)

Copperhead310th
02-27-2006, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by csThor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">By Texan...:
Bunko, God created man. Man didn't begin as some stinkin' "microbe."

If that isn't irony I'd say spare us that medieval creationist BS. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

tisk tisk tsik Evolutionists http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
all have this guy inthier future. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

csThor
02-27-2006, 11:37 PM
As an atheist I could care less about him, Copperhead http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif