PDA

View Full Version : Spits vs G6 in Africa spring 1943



TheGozr
05-25-2006, 11:44 AM
I'm looking of what exactly happened there on sping 1943 North Africa.

The G6's fought versus the Spit but wich version of Spit were available in SPRING 1943??
Many says Spit IXE but it's a 44 in game.
Is there a difference between the spit 9E 43 and 44 ?
Was it Spit IXC ?

ANy other G version beside the G6?

Thank you to answer.

csThor
05-25-2006, 12:10 PM
The majority of Bf 109's in Tunisia were Bf 109 G-2/trop or Bf 109 G-4/trop (the difference between these two is a different radio and larger wheels in the G-4). The G-6/trop came into use rather late for Africa, but there are pictures of G-6's on Tunisian airfields and even two with Heinz B¤r before such a plane.

Regarding the Spitfire versions a lot of them were still Spitfire V's of various marks. The Spit IX was probably of the C-Version, though I have little to no detailed information about the technical details. One source even claims the Spit IX's were only brought in after II./JG 2's Fw 190s were encountered ... before the Allied pilots were told only to expect Bf 109's and therefore the Spit V's would be sufficient (says the source - I somehow doubt that).

telsono
05-25-2006, 12:47 PM
The first Spit Mk IX's in North Africa were those flown by the Polish Fighting Team.

"The Polish Fighting Team (PFT), popularly called "Skalski's Circus", was made up of the best Polish fighter pilots. All fifteen of them volunteered and Capt. Stanislaw Skalski was their commander. After a month¤s transition, the Polish pilots arrived at Bu Grara airfield (250 km west of Tripoli) on 13 March 1943. They at first became part of 145 RAF Squadron (commanded by S/Ldr Lance Wade) as the "C" Flight. The call code of 145 Squadron was "ZX" and the aircraft of the Polish Flight received the individual code numbers "1" to "9".

Operational duty for the PFT began 17 March 1943. The first combat missions were in "Spitfire" Mk Vc trop fighters, but after a week the unit was re-equipped with new "Spitfire" Mk IX (while other flights of the 145th still flew the Mk V!). On 28 March 1943, the PFT drew its first blood. The flight led by Skalski encountered a group of Ju 88's escorted by Bf 109Gs of II./JG 77. No fighter planes were shot down on either side, but Skalski and Lt. Horbaczewski claimed killings of two Ju 88s. "

And they did fly against Bf 109G-6's. The Spit IX's were C types.

SparrowThree
05-25-2006, 12:56 PM
It was a mixed bag of 5Bs, 5Cs, and early 9Es.

Xiolablu3
05-25-2006, 01:12 PM
In Spring 1943 it would be Mostly MkVb's,MkVc's with a few mk9c's.

Possibly more Merlin 61 Spit9c's that was introduced in 1942 than the Merlin 66 we have in game.

Although on the CHannel front the Spit 9c went into service immedietly when it was ready in 1942, I suspect it would take longer to get it out to the med and therefore not many Spitfire 9c Merlin 66's (Also called Spitfire 9B, the early Merlin 61 Version was called the 9A)

The only difference between the Mk9c and Mk9e is the 2 50 cals on the Mk9e and the 4 .303s on the Mk9c so its possible they were Mk9e's

The mkVb's were also improved as time went on so that they bore little resembalance to the 1941 MkVb. They were mostly boosted, super charger blades cropped and wings clipped ot make them much faster at low alt.

It was usually the MkVIII which was sent to the med, becasue of the excellent built in dust filters and far better range (475 miles for MkIX, 750 miles for the MkVIII) BUt I suspect there were no MkVIII's in the med in Spring, just slightly too early.

TheGozr
05-25-2006, 01:37 PM
Very good many discussions about on this Africa theatre on the early Spit IXE flying in spring 43 and the difference they had with the later 44 IXE model that we have in game.

TheGozr
05-25-2006, 01:38 PM
ALl is for knowledge, no flaming Thanks.

Xiolablu3
05-25-2006, 01:46 PM
Hi Gozr,

There shouldnt be any difference between the Mk9c or the Mk9e we have in game, just the guns.

I should clarify what I wrote before.

The original MkIX rushed into service in 1942 to counter the Focke Wulf had the Merlin 61. Few were produced (about 250 I think) compared to the alightly later (1943) version which used the merlin 66. (the one we have in game)

I suspect whichever guns were available at the time were fitted leading to Mk9c's and Mk9e's produced through 1943-44. With the US sending over so many 50 cals, it is very possible there were Mk9es in Spring 1943.

If any Spitfire VIIIs were available they were preffered for the med for the reasons I stated above, however a lot of Mk9's were sent too.

The only reason I suspected that the Spit 9's you were talking about were Merlin 61 is becasue I would think it would take a while to gt the planes out there, no other reason. Maybe they reached the med in a couple of days after being produced tho, I am not sure actually. Anyone know how long it took to ship new fighter planes to the med?

Although I am a Spitfire fan, if you were making a med map for Spring '43 with the planes in game, I think you would have to stick with the MkVb and MkVc. We have no Merlin 61 mk9 at present. Anyway the 4 cannon on the MkVc4 means that it is still deadly for the 109G6, but you would have to limit the Mk108 too. Maybe just use the 109G2, I suspect many would prefer it over the G6 anyway. MkVb/MkVc4 vs Bf109G2/Bf110 makes a great map

stathem
05-25-2006, 01:53 PM
I'm fairly confident that the 'e' wing wasn't introduced on Spitfires anywhere until the second half of 1944.

Xiolablu3
05-25-2006, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by stathem:
I'm fairly confident that the 'e' wing wasn't introduced on Spitfires anywhere until the second half of 1944.

You are possibly right Stathem. I am not sure, the OP stated these 10G6's tangled with Mk9e's, and seeing as its only the guns which are different, I thought it was possible. Maybe someone can say for sure.

Could anyone tell me when the very first Spitfire VIII entered service also please? I just googled it but cannot find anything.

telsono
05-25-2006, 02:33 PM
Some more information on four of those Spit IX's that flew with the Polish Fighting Team aka Skalski's Circus. All had the earlier rounded tail like the Spit V.

ZX-0/EN 355, 145 Sq RAF
ZX-1/EN 459, 145 Sq RAF
ZX-5/EN 267, 145 Sq RAF
ZX-6/EN 315, 145 Sq RAF

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a168/telsono/Airplanes/PFTIXwreck.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a168/telsono/Airplanes/ZX_6_takeoff.jpg

"On 2 April 1943, four Polish "Spitfire" pilots from 145 Squadron attacked 16 Bf 109s of II./JG 77 and claimed three Messerschmitt 109s shot down, one of them by Skalski. The record of II./JG 77 'Herzas' shows: the Bf 109s attacked a formation of Douglas Bostons escorted by "Spitfires", and Feldwebel Alexander Preinfalk claimed one Boston shot down (his 64th victory). Oberleutnant Heinz Dudeck's Bf 109 G-6 was the only German loss. Dudeck belly-landed and escaped the wreck unhurt. He was taken care of by some local Tunisians who fed him milk and ten raw eggs! On the Polish side the "Spitfire" piloted by Lt. Arct was damaged, but he was able return to base. "

Xiolablu3
05-25-2006, 02:47 PM
Interesting stuff mate, thanks.

All the first Mk9's were the Merlin 61/66 fitted in MkV airframes, it was only later models that had the pointy Spit VIII rudder.

The curved tail really cant tell us much about what engine/model they were, unless maybe all Spitfire Mk9e's had the pointy tail of the mkVIII? I am not sure

luftluuver
05-25-2006, 02:56 PM
X, some Mk IXs used the slightly more powerful (~100hp) M 63s instead of the M61s.

VW-IceFire
05-25-2006, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by TheGozr:
I'm looking of what exactly happened there on sping 1943 North Africa.

The G6's fought versus the Spit but wich version of Spit were available in SPRING 1943??
Many says Spit IXE but it's a 44 in game.
Is there a difference between the spit 9E 43 and 44 ?
Was it Spit IXC ?

ANy other G version beside the G6?

Thank you to answer.
I don't think there were any IXe's in theater. I have never seen a picture of a IXe outside of Europe.

In The Med and elsewhere the types were predominantly Spitfire Vc with 2 cannon (and 4 .303) and the Spitfire VIII which had greater range. Most of the VIIIs were VIIIc's and not VIIIe's which tended to show up in 1944 (in the Far East some of the them were VIIIe). The Spitfire IX was mostly kept in the European theater and not moved outside but I know some were used elsewhere...just not in big numbers.

The difference between IXe and IXc is purely in the wing type used. Infact the wings aren't all that different but the IXe modified the armament to have two Hispano 20mm cannons and two Browning .50cals. The Hispanos were moved to the outboard cannon bay (which is empty on IXc's) and the Brownings were mounted on the inboard cannon bay.

I believe for most of 1943 in this area the primary Spitfire was still the Vc with two cannons. The VIII and a few IXs were introduced at the end of the year if I can remember my dates properly. The earliest photos I can find of the VIII are dated Spring 1944 so I imagine thats when they were delivered.

Remember that the VIII was most common outside of England. It was used by the RAF, RCAF, RAAF, USAAF, and probably a few other commonwealth air forces in the region.

If you are to do a scenario and you're in Spring 1944 then the VIII is appropriate and the IX is barely appropriate. If you want to do Spring 1943 as stated then the Spitfire Vc (2 cannon) is the way to go. There isn't a huge difference performance wise between the VIII and IX except that the IX has shorter range and is a bit lighter. The VIII has a slight aerodynamic advantage with a retractable tailwheel and its slightly stronger in terms of airframe but its not a huge difference.

ImpStarDuece
05-25-2006, 04:42 PM
The Spitfire Mk IXe wasn't deployed in Europe until March 1944. So they wouldn't of been available for operations in Africa in 1943.

The first Spitfire IXs deployed outside of Europe were those of 81 and 72 squadrons, based in Algeria and Tunisia respectively. They recieved their Spitfire IXcs in January, 193.

"Stanlavski's Circus" as mentioned earlier, were also equipped with Mk IXc Spitfires in early 1943 and based out of Ben Gardane in Nthrn Africa, attacked to 145 Squadron. The US 31st and 52nd Fighter Groups also began to get Mk IXs
in April 1944, replacing their Mk Vb and Mk Vc Spitfires.

The Mk VIII was first deployed in Malta in June 1943, with 145 Sqdn. 55 examples also went to the 52nd FG around the same time frame.

Dominant type until late 1943 would of been the Mk Vc Spitfire, with either a Volkes tropical filter, or the Aboukir dust filter (which was smaller and far less draggy than the Vokes unit). Some 4 cannon Mk Vcs were still around, but becoming increasingly scarce after the end of fighting around Malta.

Xiolablu3
05-25-2006, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
X, some Mk IXs used the slightly more powerful (~100hp) M 63s instead of the M61s.

Thanks for the info matehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I just love the Spitfire MkVIII for pure dogfighting, its possibly my favourite plane in the game.

MkIXe is great for ground pounding the targets and then covering the bombers as they come in to attack. Its 500lb+ 2x250lb bombs is not too shabby for such a great dogfighter.

ImpStarDuece
05-25-2006, 07:25 PM
Spitfire IX Merlin engine ratings:

Merlin 61: 1565 hp @ 12,300 feet, 1390 @ 23,500

Spitfire F. IX

Merlin 63: 1650 hp @ 10,200 feet, 1505 @ 22,000

Spitfire F. IX

Merlin 63A: 1710 hp @ 8,500 feet, 1505 @ 21,000

Spitfire F. IX

Merlin 66: 1720 hp @ 8500 feet, 1520 @ 20,000

Spitfire LF. IX (aka Spitfire IXB)

Merlin 70: 1710 @ 11,500 feet, 1475 @ 24,500

Spitfire HF. IX

TheGozr
05-26-2006, 10:29 AM
Thx

here an expert on SPit

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=4...901045744#4901045744 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=45410763&m=5041023014&r=4901045744#4901045744)

SparrowThree
05-26-2006, 11:33 AM
Not that it matters at this point in the conversation...I notice in my post above that I listed the 9E.

I meant 9C.

bjparker
05-26-2006, 11:55 AM
Re - Mk VIII -

Jeffrey Quil says "The Mk VIII, however, was by far the the better aeroplane [v. Mk IX] and because of its tropicalisation, improved range and other refinements it was allocated to the overseas commands... I flew the first Mk VIII in November 1942... the frist three aeroplanes were delivered to Gibraltar on 12 April 1943. By mid June they were being delivered overseas in quantity.... We then has an excellent aeroplane which was which was very pleasant to handle and with a performance as good as the Mk IX, with many other advantages added on."

BJP