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fluke39
08-03-2003, 05:05 PM
One area of air combat that I have never seen simulated is that of night fighting. Obviously I guess this is for good reason- mainly I guess as you aint gonna see that much. In itself, a sim dedicated to night fighters probably isn't going to sell that well - but as an add-on - as a small novel part of FB it may work.

I don't know what Russians had in the way of night fighting equipment or what the Germans used on the eastern front (anyone?) - but IMO in may be a nice excursion from general FB combat. I don't know whether the specialised radar equipment that was installed in nightfighters could be modelled in FB- but with what looks like a few western front maps forthcoming and maybe western front planes - the idea of sitting back in the navigators position in a radar equipped Beaufighter /Bf110 or Uhu , successfully reading the blips on the screens to close in and make a kill on a B17 or Lancaster seems quite appealing,
Granted I realise that many nightfighters came back to base without a single encounter - but that is RL - I guess it could be made easier - or just would be easier given the limited sizes of the FB maps compare to the scope of where an aircraft could be in RL .

If this kind of thing could be modelled in an add-on I think it could possibly be an exciting new area of aircombat in the FB world -

thoughts on the feasibility of modelling this kind of thing anyone?
Or is this perhaps a bit of a silly idea?


<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>


Message Edited on 08/11/0310:48AM by fluke39

fluke39
08-03-2003, 05:05 PM
One area of air combat that I have never seen simulated is that of night fighting. Obviously I guess this is for good reason- mainly I guess as you aint gonna see that much. In itself, a sim dedicated to night fighters probably isn't going to sell that well - but as an add-on - as a small novel part of FB it may work.

I don't know what Russians had in the way of night fighting equipment or what the Germans used on the eastern front (anyone?) - but IMO in may be a nice excursion from general FB combat. I don't know whether the specialised radar equipment that was installed in nightfighters could be modelled in FB- but with what looks like a few western front maps forthcoming and maybe western front planes - the idea of sitting back in the navigators position in a radar equipped Beaufighter /Bf110 or Uhu , successfully reading the blips on the screens to close in and make a kill on a B17 or Lancaster seems quite appealing,
Granted I realise that many nightfighters came back to base without a single encounter - but that is RL - I guess it could be made easier - or just would be easier given the limited sizes of the FB maps compare to the scope of where an aircraft could be in RL .

If this kind of thing could be modelled in an add-on I think it could possibly be an exciting new area of aircombat in the FB world -

thoughts on the feasibility of modelling this kind of thing anyone?
Or is this perhaps a bit of a silly idea?


<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>


Message Edited on 08/11/0310:48AM by fluke39

fluke39
08-03-2003, 10:33 PM
i'll take that as a "no - it's a crap idea" then
thanks for your input guys /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 10:38 PM
Not sure if this is what you are looking for but I host several maps that take place at night.With the maps i have made I use the searchlights in the way that if..say a recon fighter flies over the target the lights come on...the bombers can see the lights and move on the target.THis can be used to an advantage by the defenders as when the lights come on you know that there is at least one enemy plane in the area that needs to be taken care of..

TX-Cuda on UBI
TX-Cuda on HyperLobby

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 10:42 PM
I like nightfights but we don't really have any night fighters yet. Once the Bf 110 is flyable then we will have something to work with. A night fighter sim would be a flop as would a night fighter addon. But adding some night fighters to a broader sim or addon would be good.

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Message Edited on 08/03/0304:43PM by Maj_Death

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 10:45 PM
It's a great idea and someone is already working on it:

http://www.nightbomber.com/

Not an FB add-on, but dedicated to recreating the night bomber campaign against Germany.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 11:14 PM
Hey, that is interesting.


They linked to this...

---> http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6443/index.html

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 03:11 AM
I've always wondered what makes a night fighter different from a day fighter.

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 04:06 AM
I always wanted to do a scenario at night. Why can't you just turn on map icons and make everything else full real? That way, your map will act like a sort of radar GCI. You still have to visually pick up the bogey to shoot, with no aircraft icons on, it should be real tough to spot the bogey visually! I may program a server and try it online.

http://utenti.lycos.it/AEREOFAN/images/saetta.jpg

caccia buon!

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XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 04:30 AM
cos the mini~map will blind your vision for 10 minutes. That thing is way too bright.

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 05:53 AM
I would like the runway lit up so that you can see where your going when taxiing for take off and of cause landing.
I find it hard enough taxiing in the day time due to lack of markers on the parking area and taxi way. Besides, the night in FB has a full moom which should be casting shadows on the ground. If that were so it would almost be bright enough to spot targets at night at close range.

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 06:04 AM
S!~ All.

Night fighting is cool, it's also something differant.
Are squad has this map we use to practice with. There are about 5 ships and some ground targets. Any way a vew of us tride to take out the ships in the daylight. We were shot down berfore we were able to drop any bombs. We were using He's. So i downloaded the map from are site and changed the it from 12:00pm to 23:30. Note, i was board.
So i took off from base on a clear night with an He with 2 torpedose. Yes i used the map and my icon to guid me. When i was close to the taret area i dived down to 100m and prepaird for my bomb run. It was dark, but finaly i saw the outline of wat apeard to be ships. I thought" this is strange im not being fired on" I picked out a target and dropped my torpedose and banked away. One of the ships fired a few shot's but my god, i thought these guy's were blind.
To make a long story long, I took out every ship without being shot once.

What is my point? It's late, sorry i now have forgotton.

Silent out....

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 05:29 PM
It's not the first time this idea is brought up to the forums. Too bad it never gets some REAL response/attention...

I guess it'll require too much of coding to add such features to this sim: radar screen with blips, flares, fire in the engine exhaust, guidance from groud control etc. ...


But in two years (?) there will be (?) "The Next Sim" (?)



R. "Rola" Skibicki

-----------------------------------
Polish Aviation Museum supports us!
http://www.muz-lotnictwa.krakow.pl

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 05:57 PM
I only know a little bit about German night fighters yet I don't really know anything about Soviet night fighters. The Messerschmitt 210 was quite successful in its night fighting role which produced a few aces flying against British bombers which was able to slightly redeem its poor daytime role in the LW. I admit it would be really challenging but it might be kind of fun having a night fighting add on.

---------------------------------------
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I STILL love my 109!

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 05:59 PM
I hope so, I have no proublum flying at night, I enjoy it.
Easer to sneek up on your target lol.

Besides, I dont think bombers went on bombing runs in the day. That would be suicide.

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 06:02 PM
MackZ wrote:
- I only know a little bit about German night fighters
- yet I don't really know anything about Soviet night
- fighters. The Messerschmitt 210 was quite
- successful in its night fighting role

do you mean the bf-110?

http://utenti.lycos.it/AEREOFAN/images/saetta.jpg

caccia buon!

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XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 06:04 PM
I mean the 210, the Hornisse. The 110 was probably used as well.

---------------------------------------
http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/109K.jpg


I STILL love my 109!

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 06:06 PM
Fluke,

Talk to Jippo.

Not only he has put a lot of hard work in trying to get us a flyable Ju 88A-4/A-4 field mod, but he also has done lots of research on how to get a Ju 88C-6a & possibly a Ju 88C-6b (night fighter) in Il-2/FB including the different radar systems.

I beleive he is very busy with summmer activities at this point in time, but I am sure he is still checking the forum.

Cheers,

Do 217P

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 06:21 PM
From the perspective of an off-line campaign gamer, I have the following comments about nightfighters.

(1) It's my understanding that Russian radars were nonexistent and most "nighfighting" on the eastern front on both sides involved searchlight-aided and moonlight illumination techniques.

(2) Spending most of your time looking a the typical WW2 era German radar display would be of interest and understandable to a few gamers.

(3) The night graphics in IL2/FB are, with the exception of the searchlights, unattractive...nothing like the nights in Janes WW2 fighters.

(4) No flyable twin engine nightfighters.

I'd recommend waiting for a dedicated RAF nightbombing campaign game before trying night fighters and night bombers

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 06:28 PM
fluke39 wrote:
- thoughts on the pheasibility of modelling this kind
- of thing anyone?
- Or is this perhaps a bit of a silly idea?

I think it's a great idea, fluke. I'd love to see something like this. I don't know anything about the eastern front, but I've been thinking lately that some co-op for a small crew in a P-61 Black Widow might be pretty incredible. Flying "blind" would add so much intensity to the suspense, IMO. But, I suppose only on a FR server. Night fighting would probably not be so popular on a regular DF server >8\

<div align="center">
http://www.watchhilldesign.com/posted/P39Blind.jpg
</div>

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 07:34 PM
The U-2 appears to have been Russia's favorite night fighter. Check it out. -jim-

http://users.belgacom.net/aircraft2/avion2/5376.html#3556

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 08:12 PM
Hi MackZ,

I'm sorry to disappoint you - but the Me 210 was not used to make any aces in night fighting (perhaps in Hungary - that I'm not sure of...)

AFAIK the Me 210 was only used with I/NJG1 Stab 3. JDiv, Lbeo-Staffel 1, and the Hungarian Staffel 5/1 (source G. Aders, History of German night fighting).
Its use was VERY limited due to its unconventional flight characteristics. It must have been a very dangerous aircraft during night (and often icing) conditions.

More often the Me 410 was used if you want to speak of that aircraft family...

Cheers, Azi.

_______________________________________

Member of He 219 development team

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 08:51 PM
Big_Jim2000 wrote:
- The U-2 appears to have been Russia's favorite night
- fighter. Check it out. -jim-

WRONG: it was used for night BOMBING: Russians developed the tactic of "harrassing" bombing - low speed, low altitude, light bombload, but it was ruining Germans' sleep /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Each night they were woken up by some hard-to-kill slow biplane that didn't let them rest for another day of fighting.



R. "Rola" Skibicki

-----------------------------------
Polish Aviation Museum supports us!
http://www.muz-lotnictwa.krakow.pl

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 10:35 PM
This is a very interesting topic and I appreciate the link to the "target for tonight" website. I have read several books and memoirs on German nightfighters and found the information fascinating.

I for one agree that adding a "night' theater to FB or a complete simulation with the complexity of FB would be an exceptional experience.

I think some of us are more attuned to the stalk and kill with twin engines, as compared to the dogfight. I think it maybe a matter of personality. It seems as if many of the exceptional night aces were "average" day pilots although that was not totally the case. However the idea of teamwork with the R/O and a specific goal orientated attack appeals to me. I hope the design team for the link mentioned sim actually markets it. Any further information on this sim would be greatly appreciated.

"there is no spoon"
wbuttler

fluke39
08-11-2003, 12:07 PM
mike_espo wrote:
- I always wanted to do a scenario at night. Why can't
- you just turn on map icons and make everything else
- full real? That way, your map will act like a sort
- of radar GCI. You still have to visually pick up the
- bogey to shoot, with no aircraft icons on, it should
- be real tough to spot the bogey visually! I may
- program a server and try it online.


granted this is a temporary way of doing it ( apart from the drawbacks mentioned) - but i think the MAIN part that i would enjoy about a nightfighter scenario would be the radar system - succesfully interpreting a series of lines and blips while sat in the back of a beaufighter or ju88 - which then led to a kill - i would find extremely satisying.

i don't know much about gaming programming ( i can program a bit myself - but not games) but i don't think this would need THAT much coding - i mean lets see - lets use a beaufighter /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif as an example: -

extra modelling of antenna etc - hardly worth mentioning

rear cockpit with radar system in - modelled like a normal cockpit.

Radar system itself - only the screen on radar needs to be animated ( in same way as dial in cockpit) - a 'simple' algorithm which converts an aircrafts position relative to the intercepting aircrafts position into a series of lines on screen. (depending on radar system)

OK so the dogfight boys may not like it - and it may be of more interest to those who like immersion, strategic gameplay and realism- but if it could be done relativly easily it may make a nice small add-on - and you either play it if you like it - or you don't if you don't

given the variety of mission types already available in FB i think this would be a nice notch in its belt /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



-



<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

fluke39
08-11-2003, 12:13 PM
DesertPhox wrote:
- I've always wondered what makes a night fighter
- different from a day fighter.
-
-


main differences are:

types used - usually twin engined with at least 2 crew members - one to fly/gun the other to observe/operate radar/navigate and possibly gun aswell

usually but not always have radar system installed - if so then will have antenna somewhere (usually nose)

usually have flame dampers on engine exhausts to stop any flames from giving the planes position away.

sometimes there may be no difference - apart from camo sheme - but this is usually early war ( eg hurricane nightfighter) - nightfighting took everyone off guard as it had not really been thought of (or been a need for) before the start of the war.


<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 05:05 PM
Some night fighters came back to base with 5 kills!
Small maps are not important for the germans as they restricted their fighters to flying in vaery controlled box areas. On the russian front FW-189s were used as night fighters. I think the main problem is getting could reports either form your radar operator or from ground control, if Oleg can implement such vectors (as he may for european day missions) then all he has to do is a little bit of AI tweaking and radar modifications and model night vision and we have a sim that will reach a large market!

__________________________________________________ Il-10

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 05:39 PM
Also if it's a clear night, it's not tough to spot the enemy. I have once got onto a dog fight server with one of my squad mates. I think it was Copperhead. This was almsot a month ago. I was noob and still am but if you look for tracer fire and head in that derection you might find an enemy aircraft unaware of your presence. But this was a clear night and I only got one kill. I was downed about ten times. I would imagen if the condistion was poor it would be tough. Radar would realy help to i think.

Silent out....

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 05:41 PM
WW2 radar screens would be like looking at an oscilliscope screen > horizontal line, blip/spike, horizontal line. And there can be up to 3 screens(left/right, up/down, distance) to look at. ROs were not trained overnight.

Who has walked into a dark room or tried to walk at night through a forest - very hard to see where to walk, just like it will be very hard to fly.

NFing will not be such a big draw, all one has to do is look at the numbers in DF rooms compared to coops. NFing was and is VERY boring and will not appeal to the very many who want instant gratification.

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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 05:54 PM
Nightfighting would be very boring.

Staring on a black screen and some gauges 95% of the time wouldn't be much fun /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

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