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View Full Version : Alfred Grislawski RIP 02.11.1919-19.09.2003



XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 05:35 PM
one of the last eagles has started his final flight.


http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/


RIP..may your wings never close again

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 05:35 PM
one of the last eagles has started his final flight.


http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/


RIP..may your wings never close again

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 05:42 PM
May he rest in eternal peace.

Good thing he got to see his biography released, I've already ordered my copy /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

-----------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------
When a German Infantry unit's advance is halted...who do they call?? The Fighter jocks? Get real!!...They call the STUKA Pilots !!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 06:16 PM
Ruhe in Frieden!

(Rest in peace.)

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 06:21 PM
~S! to this aviator! My prayers to his family who he left behind during his departure to the greatest journey he will take.

http://fluxout.homestead.com/files/Thx-32x.jpg


"You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you"

Eric Hoffer (1902 - 1983)

Message Edited on 09/22/0301:22PM by NTESLA

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 06:22 PM
May he rest in peace...

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 06:22 PM
Bummer. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

A true ace.



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 06:25 PM
nt = No Text

S!

M0NS (authorized P39 pyrotechnician)



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 06:28 PM
May he rest in peace. S!

"I find your lack of brains disturbing"
http://ourworld.cs.com/Demolisher%20SWE/signature01.jpg
Former Würgerwhiner extraordinaire
Who stole the 109's mojo!?

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 06:29 PM
R.I.P.



Message Edited on 09/22/0305:29PM by fjuff79

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 07:09 PM
He died 10 years to the day after his "Ace" student Erich "Bubi" Hartmann died. RIP!!!

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 07:54 PM
How sad./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif May he rest in peace.

http://members.chello.se/unni/GK-2.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 08:05 PM
Yes, it's so sad, almost as sad when Mother Theresa died...

At least he'll get to shake Hitler's hand again.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 10:18 PM
cracovian hoping yer littl *** gets banned..asshat

U.S INFANTRY 84-91

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 10:20 PM
Salute

Lost another one..

..



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

Message Edited on 09/23/0306:39AM by kweassa

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 10:29 PM
cracovian wrote:
- Yes, it's so sad, almost as sad when Mother Theresa
- died...
-
- At least he'll get to shake Hitler's hand again.
-
-
And kick Stalin's *** again! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Shame we can't still look at this with a quiet perspective. This man was part of History, and he fought valiantly. Unfortunately, the man who ruled his country was an evil dictator. Had he any choice? We don't know, but it's unlikely. Who are us to judge any of these soldiers? It's easy to say: "He shouldn't have fought for Hitler", but it's precise to live the time and circumstances to understand it.

Have a nice flight, Grislawski!

- Dux Corvan -



http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612322300

</span></blockquote></font></td></tr>

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 11:40 PM
There's no shame to it whatsover - I have the right to my opinion. These guys who were just "following their orders" have a pretty heavy load to carry and they won't be shaking no St. Peter's hand either...

There are too many "valiant" and "brave" fighters on the other side out there today and I truly hope they won't be gaining our respect 50 years from now either.

...which shouldn't stop us from enjoying this wonderful game :-)

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 12:08 AM
Ah yes, and all the allied soldiers were all spotless, not a thing on their conscience... where's the roll eyes icon when you need it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

http://members.shaw.ca/cuski4678/sig.jpg

eskimo-FHmod
09-23-2003, 12:18 AM
cracovian, you are just a pathetic little troll.
the world is such a great place to live in because of people like you.
my grandfather fought in WW2. yes he was on the 'wrong' side. did he know it was the wrong side ? certainly not.
after the war he became close friends with a group of american soldiers he had once been in battle with and they visited each other every few years.
i assume it was a bond forged that only people can understand that have seen death and stared it into the eyes.
they didnt see themselves as enemys. they saw themselves as victims, robbed of their youth and forced to grow up much too early.

may they all rest in peace.


www.vaaf.com (http://www.strikemepink.com)

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 12:48 AM
cracovian wrote:
- There's no shame to it whatsover - I have the right
- to my opinion. These guys who were just "following
- their orders" have a pretty heavy load to carry and
- they won't be shaking no St. Peter's hand either...

Pretty presumptuous don't you think? To act like you know enough to dictate the mercy of God? For all you know this man's wartime experience brought him to salvation... You don't know.... you probably never heard of him till today. I hadn't....but I can offer a heart felt ~S~ to a fallen aviator. I sure hope you get more mercy than you have shown. You act like the Allies were all a bunch of saints...it wasnt so. Evil men were on both sides and so were good men...... we are not qualified to pick out who was who or who.....in the end had thier sins washed clean... I dont want to cause this thread to be locked so I will get off my soapbox. Respect for others isn't hard if you know how dirty YOU are and where your redemption lies. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron



Message Edited on 09/22/0307:51PM by Bearcat99

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 01:01 AM
Grislawski was NOT a NAZI!!! He was only briefly detained at the end of the war as records showed he was not a member of the party!

I am sure he is giving Bubi hell again!!

"Are you so anxious to die, Bubi?"

"I'm sorry, sir!"

"Don't you 'sir' me, look after your tail instead!"

"I'll nail you for this, Bubi!"

"I'm sorry!"

"Your mother will be sorry!"

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 01:31 AM
We were at this last week for Hartmann.

On one hand we have a dedicated pilot of great skill.

On the other hand we have a man who would have killed anyone, anywhere if told to.

There is a part in Henry V where the King is chastised by a soldier. "if their deaths be not good, then the King himself has a heavy reckoning to make". The King responds that though the soldier's duty is the King's, his soul's his own.

If that is true, where did a German pilot's duty stop and his humanity, his soul as it were, kick in. And at that point, does a good man simply say to his superiors, as many have done, "I will not do that."

We have all been told to do things that were contrary to our nature, our conscience, and sometimes we have refused them. There is a cost. But is it greater than the cost of doing the thing?



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 02:26 AM
He surely didn't get a chance to make friends with my grandfather who died defending his own land being swept by the "innocent" likes of your grandfather. I think it's those kinds of innocents fighting for their cause who make the world what it is today - and not me. I've grown to be a pacifist more than anything else (who happens to like war games). If people played with PCs instead of real guns we'd all be better off. That's the real lesson we should get from history but we're ain't getting it.

I really don't care if Alfred was the member of the party or not; he directly and indirectly contributed to the massive death of tens of thousands of soldiers and innocent civilians in the foreign land. If he thought of himself innocent or doomed or enslaved in any way then he'll be judged accordingly.

Forgive me but, just because he killed a few Russian pilots in style, he won't get my sympathy...


P.S. It's pretty lame to revert to name-calling and censorship when someone makes you feel uncomfortable.


eskimo-FHmod wrote:
- cracovian, you are just a pathetic little troll.
- the world is such a great place to live in because
- of people like you.
- my grandfather fought in WW2. yes he was on the
- 'wrong' side. did he know it was the wrong side ?
- certainly not.
- after the war he became close friends with a group
- of american soldiers he had once been in battle with
- and they visited each other every few years.
- i assume it was a bond forged that only people can
- understand that have seen death and stared it into
- the eyes.
- they didnt see themselves as enemys. they saw
- themselves as victims, robbed of their youth and
- forced to grow up much too early.
-
- may they all rest in peace.
-
-
-
- www.vaaf.com (http://www.strikemepink.com)





Message Edited on 09/23/03 01:33AM by cracovian

Message Edited on 09/23/0301:34AM by cracovian

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 02:29 AM
Aww man. Sad to see him go. I do have a piece of history. A signed picture of him.

-------------------------------------
Sigs are over rated. Screw them. Screw them all.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 02:45 AM
I wonder if over at the Guns & Ammo sites, they wish fond farewells to Germans who shot Allied soldiers with advanced rifles, like the STG-44 or what have you.

Or at the Boat & Ship sites, do they give best wishes to the fallen U-boat captains who sank Allied convoys in their Type XXII subs.

Truth be told, planes are interesting and the people who fly them are very interesting. And it is interesting how the fascination with the machine (can) overides the actions of the person using it.

I would be very interested to read the history of a German soldier who shot an American from 1000 yards out with a single bullet from a classic Mauser rifle, but I'm not sure I would send him best wishes as well.



"Official Lancaster Whiner"



Message Edited on 09/23/03 01:46AM by Beirut

Message Edited on 09/23/0301:47AM by Beirut

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 03:04 AM
cracovian wrote:
- He surely didn't get a chance to make friends with
- my grandfather who died defending his own land being
- swept by the "innocent" likes of your grandfather. I
- think it's those kinds of innocents fighting for
- their cause who make the world what it is today -
- and not me. I've grown to be a pacifist more than
- anything else (who happens to like war games). If
- people played with PCs instead of real guns we'd all
- be better off. That's the real lesson we should get
- from history but we're ain't getting it.
-
- I really don't care if Alfred was the member of the
- party or not; he directly and indirectly contributed
- to the massive death of tens of thousands of
- soldiers and innocent civilians in the foreign land.
- If he thought of himself innocent or doomed or
- enslaved in any way then he'll be judged
- accordingly.
-
- Forgive me but, just because he killed a few Russian
- pilots in style, he won't get my sympathy...
-
-
- P.S. It's pretty lame to revert to name-calling and
- censorship when someone makes you feel
- uncomfortable.

Cracovian,I'm sorry your grandfather died in that horrible war. Mine fought with the 4th Infantry in the US Army in the disastrous 1st attempt to contest Rommel at Fondouk Pass in Tunisia. Most of his comrades died while he was taken prisoner. After being liberated from the prison camp(in Africa) he was shot twice and received a Purple Heart. Despite this,I don't have hatred for the common German soldier or pilot. They were doing their job as my grandfather was doing his. It was nothing personal. Grislawski was no different. The majority of the German military were NOT Nazis. If you want to point fingers,do it at the SS and the rest of the German leadership. We all know where they belong...

RIP,Mr. Grislawski....


47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg


Message Edited on 09/22/0309:05PM by necrobaron

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 04:08 AM
The thing is I don't hate anyone and nowhere did I say I do. I just don't have any respect towards those soldiers or don't expect them to meet a lot of their victims after they die.

Honestly, it was weird to see all the well-wishers here and I decided to provide you with some counter balance. What freaks me out the most though is that some of my fellow Americans would respond in such nasty way to that.


P.S. Just because Stuka created so much destruction in the early stages of the blitzkrieg (including my homeland) doesn't stop me from considering this one of my favorite aircraft in this game. However, their volunteer pilots and their comrades will rot in the hell for what they've done. No need to call for any wings on their final and long-overdue journey...

Also, I don't know if it's the same History channel we're all watching but it's been very clear that without the active involvement of the majority of the German society, this small group of creatures would have not been able to execute their plans to the degree they did. It was not the first time it happened either. Innocent were the Germans who stood up, refused to kill their own people and others and ended up dead or in concentration camps themselves (there were plenty of those.)

If it hadn't been for those types of real and brave people we would have still worshipped the gods of the Roman Empire. These are some beautiful souls worth thinking about...

One more thing... 6 million people in Poland and 20 million of people in Russia alone (the vast majority of them, civilians) is a lot of people to kill for the SS and the "leadership" alone though it's always convenient to blame it on them.



necrobaron wrote:

- Cracovian,I'm sorry your grandfather died in that
- horrible war. Mine fought with the 4th Infantry in
- the US Army in the disastrous 1st attempt to contest
- Rommel at Fondouk Pass in Tunisia. Most of his
- comrades died while he was taken prisoner. After
- being liberated from the prison camp(in Africa) he
- was shot twice and received a Purple Heart. Despite
- this,I don't have hatred for the common German
- soldier or pilot. They were doing their job as my
- grandfather was doing his. It was nothing personal.
- Grislawski was no different. The majority of the
- German military were NOT Nazis. If you want to point
- fingers,do it at the SS and the rest of the German
- leadership. We all know where they belong...
-
- RIP,Mr. Grislawski....
-
-
-
- 47|FC
- http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg
-
-
- Message Edited on 09/22/03 09:05PM by
- necrobaron





Message Edited on 09/23/03 03:12AM by cracovian

Message Edited on 09/23/03 03:16AM by cracovian

Message Edited on 09/23/0303:20AM by cracovian

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 04:27 AM
I care nothing for what anyone thinks...I salute this fallen warrior. It is not what they did during the war but how they conducted their lives afterwards that I would think would be important in the mortal context...but the eternal one is something entirely different /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 04:57 AM
Alfed Grislaswski was never a member of the Nazi party, nor was he even a member of the hilter youth. The Grislawski family were communist's not nazi's. This hurt the grislawski family in many ways during the war.
The nazi's did not think much of Alfred Grislawski nor did he think much of them. If not for Graf and other friends during the war Grislawski would not have been awarded the Iron cross nor promoted.
I just finished reading his latest book, "Graf and Grislawski". I bought the autographed version and I am glad that I have a piece of history on my shelf. Grislawski seemed like a fine chap to me and did nothing more than his duty as many did in WWII.

S!
RIP

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:51 AM
cracovian wrote:

-
- There are too many "valiant" and "brave" fighters on
- the other side out there today and I truly hope they
- won't be gaining our respect 50 years from now
- either.
-

Well, I'm all the way with you on that one. However, there is no way I would connect a combat aviator, flying fighter planes in a regular Air Force, to the terrorist scum in the middle east or NY who deliberately target and blow up civilian installations as their main targets, by free choice. The Iraqi combat aviator who fought in Desert Storm is far from Osama Bin Laden as well, for example.

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:58 AM
cracovian wrote:However, their
- volunteer pilots and their comrades will rot in the
- hell for what they've done. No need to call for any
- wings on their final and long-overdue journey... just don't have any respect towards
- those soldiers or don't expect them to meet a lot of
- their victims after they die.

So your saying anybody who fights in a war will go to hell? There are plenty of good men who wage war.

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:21 AM
I bet he's in his 109 right now.

Have a safe trip home bud. S!

http://www.lancerusswurm.com/Bf109-Labusch2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:26 AM
Who knows who goes where and if we'll even go anywhere at all. I can only hope there's a punishment for some and a reward for others.

In this case some give Alfred wings and I give him a big pack of dynamite and a long drill 'cause, in my opinion, he more than earned it.

Honestly though, in this country more than any other, almost everyone and their mother is waving the Bible in someone else's face but it seems like no one really reads it or gets the message. If I were looking for any life or death, heaven or hell answers, I'd probably look in there first.


necrobaron wrote:
- cracovian wrote:However, their
-- volunteer pilots and their comrades will rot in the
-- hell for what they've done. No need to call for any
-- wings on their final and long-overdue journey... just don't have any respect towards
-- those soldiers or don't expect them to meet a lot of
-- their victims after they die.
-
- So your saying anybody who fights in a war will go
- to hell? There are plenty of good men who wage war.
-
-
-
- 47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg
-

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:37 AM
Have you ever seen pictures from Warsaw??? Sadly, the ground zero has nothing on this big metropolis TOTALLY wiped out along with its civilians... We're talking Stukas, JUs and MEs deliberately blowing everything up for no reason whatsoever. Poor volunteer agressors (we're talking 1939-42 here) who thought they were innocent until the very end - let's shed some more tears for them because they lived their lives to the fullest...


Heart_C wrote:
-
- cracovian wrote:
-
-
--
-- There are too many "valiant" and "brave" fighters on
-- the other side out there today and I truly hope they
-- won't be gaining our respect 50 years from now
-- either.
--
-
- Well, I'm all the way with you on that one. However,
- there is no way I would connect a combat aviator,
- flying fighter planes in a regular Air Force, to the
- terrorist scum in the middle east or NY who
- deliberately target and blow up civilian
- installations as their main targets, by free choice.
- The Iraqi combat aviator who fought in Desert Storm
- is far from Osama Bin Laden as well, for example.
-
- =38=OIAE
-
- 47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:50 AM
iv seen pics of warsaw iv seen pics of other places, iv seen other places ...what is it that you think war is?........ppl fencing in a open field ...look war is a terriable thing but soldiers serve their nation perhaps you should consider that as well.....

U.S INFANTRY 84-91

Message Edited on 09/22/0311:54PM by tenmmike

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:55 AM
Cracovian, those people are paying their last respects to an old soldier, there is nothing more impolite than your intrusion on this thread.

If you want to discuss politics open another thread. This is not the place for your moral lessons.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:58 AM
thanks huck but that wont stop some ppl

U.S INFANTRY 84-91

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 09:17 AM
salute

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 09:30 AM
cracovian wrote:
- Who knows who goes where and if we'll even go
- anywhere at all. I can only hope there's a
- punishment for some and a reward for others.
-
- In this case some give Alfred wings and I give him a
- big pack of dynamite and a long drill 'cause, in my
- opinion, he more than earned it.
-
- Honestly though, in this country more than any
- other, almost everyone and their mother is waving
- the Bible in someone else's face but it seems like
- no one really reads it or gets the message. If I
- were looking for any life or death, heaven or hell
- answers, I'd probably look in there first.



Urm..right. So you think all German war vets should got to hell,is that it? Is that what you're saying? I'm still trying to figure your mindset. You obviously feel strongly about this....

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 09:34 AM
necrobaron wrote:
- cracovian wrote:
-- Who knows who goes where and if we'll even go
-- anywhere at all. I can only hope there's a
-- punishment for some and a reward for others.
--
-- In this case some give Alfred wings and I give him a
-- big pack of dynamite and a long drill 'cause, in my
-- opinion, he more than earned it.
--
-- Honestly though, in this country more than any
-- other, almost everyone and their mother is waving
-- the Bible in someone else's face but it seems like
-- no one really reads it or gets the message. If I
-- were looking for any life or death, heaven or hell
-- answers, I'd probably look in there first.
-
-
-
- Urm..right. So you think all German war vets should
- got to hell,is that it? Is that what you're saying?
- I'm still trying to figure your mindset. You
- obviously feel strongly about this....


Please do not continue this discussion here.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 02:22 PM
cracovian wrote:
- Who knows who goes where and if we'll even go
- anywhere at all. I can only hope there's a
- punishment for some and a reward for others.
-
- In this case some give Alfred wings and I give him a
- big pack of dynamite and a long drill 'cause, in my
- opinion, he more than earned it.
-
- Honestly though, in this country more than any
- other, almost everyone and their mother is waving
- the Bible in someone else's face but it seems like
- no one really reads it or gets the message. If I
- were looking for any life or death, heaven or hell
- answers, I'd probably look in there first.
-
-
- necrobaron wrote:
-- cracovian wrote:However, their
--- volunteer pilots and their comrades will rot in the
--- hell for what they've done. No need to call for any
--- wings on their final and long-overdue journey... just don't have any respect towards
--- those soldiers or don't expect them to meet a lot of
--- their victims after they die.
--
-- So your saying anybody who fights in a war will go
-- to hell? There are plenty of good men who wage war.
--
--
--
-- 47|FC
- http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg



I cannot help myself. I have to respond. Cracovian, I have read the Bible. The whole point of the New Testament is FORGIVENESS. I seem to remember Christ saying something like, "forgive them, Father. They know not what they do." And this was for the sake of the people who murdered him (and countless others--the Romans were no sweethearts, either.)

I also remember him being quoted as saying something about judging not "lest thou be judged."

There is NOTHING in it granting the right to humans to decide who should or should not go to Hell. "Vengeance is MINE, sayeth the Lord," I think it says. It is the height of hypocrisy and arrogance for you to presume you have that right or knowledge.

Alfred Grislawski lived an entire lifetime, not just six years with the Luftwaffe. Neither you nor I know his motivations or what values he possessed during that war, and certainly we know nothing of what kind of man he was the day he died. If you want to judge him no one can stop you, but to claim some kind of biblical sanction for it is simply perverse and disgusting.

It's pretty sad that an agnostic like me is a better Christian than you. In my opinion, you yourself are every bit as likely to get that chance to shake Hitler's hand as Alfred Grislawski.



Even if you did fight for the wrong side, Herr Grislawski, sleep well.

eskimo-FHmod
09-23-2003, 02:27 PM
cracovian, for a pacifist you are certainly full of hatered.

my 'innocent' grandfather certainly never saw himself as that and in fact if you had known him you would know that he was a broken man full of guilt and remorse. so were many germans and still are.
but what would that be to you? someone full of stereotypes who claims to offer a balance when in fact all you are after is to be the agent provocateur.
the bias you accuse us of is in fact your own.


cracovian wrote:
- P.S. It's pretty lame to revert to name-calling and
- censorship when someone makes you feel
- uncomfortable.
-

mate, i call a spade a spade.

and yes, i feel uncomfortable around history channel educated moralists.

PS: i agree with you on the gun issue though /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

www.vaaf.com (http://www.strikemepink.com)

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 02:28 PM
Just finish his biography. What a life he had.

Rest In Peace.

Horrido!!



"Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty but the pig enjoys it!"

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 02:48 PM
Sorry I have to reply to cracovian.

Show me one prove, that Afred Grislawski took part on one of the operations/war crimes you listed up. If you don't find any proves of war crimes Alfred Grislawksi did, better shut your garbage spitting mouth.


Meanwhile, I salute to Alfred Grislawski, R.I.P. Santé, I'll clink some glasses on you.

http://www.adlertag.de/asse/grislawski.jpg

BTW Alfred Grislawski was pilot instruktor of of the EJGr.Ost.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif




"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die Lüfte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif


http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/Forums/



Message Edited on 09/23/0302:52PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 03:16 PM
S! to Al

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 05:20 PM
cracovian wrote:
- Have you ever seen pictures from Warsaw??? Sadly,
- the ground zero has nothing on this big metropolis
- TOTALLY wiped out along with its civilians... We're
- talking Stukas, JUs and MEs deliberately blowing
- everything up for no reason whatsoever. Poor
- volunteer agressors (we're talking 1939-42 here) who
- thought they were innocent until the very end -
- let's shed some more tears for them because they
- lived their lives to the fullest...
-
Aside from what tenmike said - what's up with the B-17 or especially night-bombing Lanc crews, who firebombed German cities? But also targeted only military installations in other missions. Are they all going to hell, too? I tell you what: I don't believe in God. But, if there is one, I'm sure it's not your business to sort 'em out. From what I heard of your God, those who are bzy with judging others would be the last ones to make it.

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 05:26 PM
A Japanese pilot who strafed column after column of American Marines in WWII just died. He killed hundreds. He was a decorated flyer, took part at Pearl Harbor and was a hell of a shot! And he loved airplanes.

May he rest in peace and best wishes to his family.

After all, he was just a soldier fighting for his country.


---And just how furious would some of our American friends be to read a post like that. I submit that the politeness and civility requested of Cracovian would be shattered and broken by those now doing the asking.





"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 05:30 PM
IMHO,
yes there is a God, but i am sure , he sorted humans not according to nationalities, nor about the colour of the skin.
jews, christ, muslim, doesn´t matter.
its a matter of what the people have done in their life.


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:05 PM
Beirut wrote:
- A Japanese pilot who strafed column after column of
- American Marines in WWII just died. He killed
- hundreds. He was a decorated flyer, took part at
- Pearl Harbor and was a hell of a shot! And he loved
- airplanes.
-
- May he rest in peace and best wishes to his family.
-
- After all, he was just a soldier fighting for his
- country.
-
-
----And just how furious would some of our American friends be to read a post like that. I submit that the politeness and civility requested of Cracovian would be shattered and broken by those now doing the asking.



I beg to differ. Alfred Grislawski also served on the Western Front with JGs 50, 1, and 53, scoring 24 kills against Western-flown aircraft, including 18 four-engined (almost certainly all American) bombers.

So it's quite likely he did kill a substantial number of our guys. So what? It doesn't prove he was an evil person. Like the rest of us, he was born into a world he didn't create, was raised with values he didn't invent, and made a lot of mistakes he probably later regretted. What that makes him, most likely, is normal. His war service was outstanding and his bravery unquestionable, despite, sadly, serving a terrible cause which he did not think was terrible at the time.

He killed our guys, our guys killed his guys. That's how war works, isn't it?



Incidentally, Saburo Sakai also killed quite a few Americans during his career, and yes, may he rest in peace and best wishes to his family. He didn't make policy--he did his duty as life gave him the ability to see it.

And also in addition: the fact that, as you say, "some Americans" might respond to a similar thread in a manner similar to cracovian's classless post does not excuse that post. His post was akin to an uninvited entry into a stranger's funeral in order to condemn the deceased. It's classless, it's hateful, and it is inexcusable. The flaming cracovian is getting is well deserved.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:07 PM
S!

<center>________________________</center>

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Tgan92/CowboyMir.gif

"The day is mine!"

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:21 PM
Yeah, let's pay our tribute to all the fallen German and Japanese soldiers. While we're at it let's pay our tribute to the brave Iraqi and Afghani Taliban soldiers who are killing our boys and girls.

I hope in fifty years our kids and grandkids won't be saluting any of those "innocent" officers on the other side of the fence.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:36 PM
I feel like many of you are flaming yourselves. Like I said, my family was affected by these "innocent" agressors and I *hope* that (I'm not playing god here, just a simple hope) none of them will rest in peace for murdering over 30 million people.

Remember that it was usually not H. or his leadership pulling the trigger. That's a lot of trigger pulling to do in 5 years alone to take the blame away from the regular soldier.

To me, there is a difference between a drafted soldier fighting a defensive war as opposed to a volunteer aggressor pretending not to have a clue about what he's doing. If some of you disagree then I'm cool with that. I didn't call anyone names and I only expressed my valid opinion shared by most of the people (including the majority of Germans themselves.)



Message Edited on 09/23/0305:37PM by cracovian

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:46 PM
Fine. Please leave the funeral hall, then. You are out of place here.

Good luck to you.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:53 PM
I feel offended by the out-of-place funeral taking place in this public forum where people come to learn and discuss this awesome game...

Good luck to you too.


Quax46 wrote:
- Fine. Please leave the funeral hall, then. You are
- out of place here.
-
- Good luck to you.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:56 PM
S!

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 06:58 PM
Beirut wrote:
- A Japanese pilot who strafed column after column of
- American Marines in WWII just died. He killed
- hundreds. He was a decorated flyer, took part at
- Pearl Harbor and was a hell of a shot! And he loved
- airplanes.
-
- May he rest in peace and best wishes to his family.
-
- After all, he was just a soldier fighting for his
- country.

----And just how furious would some of our American friends be to read a post like that. I submit that the politeness and civility requested of Cracovian would be shattered and broken by those now doing the asking.

That is a bunch of BS!!!!

It is so amazing to me...that I see pictures of German soldiers and British or American or Russian or Japanese soldiers some who actually fought in the same battles on different sides where no doubt thier comrades died and they did some killing themselves, yet THEY can shake hands and be thankfull that they made it this far and talk about thier experiences. They can find room to forgive and yet not forget. Yet people in a sim forum, who probably never fired a shot in anger most certainly not in those circumstances (A world wide conflict), seem to want to beat thier chest and grind thier axes. It's HISTORY. This is an international forum. This is a flight sim forum, specifically a COMBAT flight sim forum with folks from all sides who share a common love of flight,history and sims. To expect German citizens to NOT show respect for the fallen soldiers of thier nation is just plain stuipid. If you are THAT thin skinned then you need to stay away from the forum period. And Beirut.... if someone posted a tribute to Sakai the way you did, I as an American would ask him why does he have to be so inflammatory and insensitive but I would STILL salute the man. Wastel didnt do it that way..... he was tactfull and respectfull with his post, not only to the man but to the other members of this forum.

wastel wrote:
- one of the last eagles has started his final flight.
- RIP..may your wings never close again

You and cracovian betray your youthfull ignorance by your posts. Don't think for one minute that these men did not have regrets about what they did in the war. My Godfather God bless him was a Seargeant in the Marines in the Pacific, till the day he died he had some regrets like most soldiers do and he had dreams....nightmares. If I thought like you did then I would be hating my country since it killed millions of my ancestors in the middle passage and through disease and murder as they stole this land...not to mention the persecution that brought others from England in the 1700s..... Life is not in black and white. You cant expect a whole nation of people to be forever accountable for the evil deeds started by a small group. Most of the soldiers,seamen and airmen on all sides were just doing thier duty to thier country and I am sure they would have preferred to be home with thier families making babies and raising them instead of dodging bullets and killing people in the skies, on the ground or at sea. If you guys feel so strongly you should stay away from threads like this instead of dirtying them up with your unresolved issues. You cant erase what happened but you can remember. You should NEVER FORGET...but forgiveness is one way to keep something like that from happening on your watch.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

Message Edited on 09/23/0302:02PM by Bearcat99

fluke39
09-23-2003, 07:02 PM
*sigh*

how did i know iraq/afghanistan would eventually wheedle their way into this thread.

it's funny because if you lived in iraq or indeed any other country, you may well think differently about things like who is good and who is bad.(though doubtless you'd consider your country the good guys)

just because you are brought up under one countries doctrines doesn't mean those doctrines are just and right- and this is the kind of thing that has led to war in the past and unfortunately still will in the future.


good post BTW Bearcat.


and i salute a fallen aviator

S!

<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/flukelogo.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:11 PM
You know what, Bearcat?



You're alright!



Quax

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 07:59 PM
Bearcat,

You write well, and I am am very close to being on side with you.

The problem, and the instigation for my POV in my posts, is the way Cracovian was jumped on for his one comment. Everyone here boasts that freedom of speech is the be all end all of thread-dom. But when he uses his, he's blasted as being impolitik and out of place.

Spend a minute in his shoes. If your country was raped, pillaged and burned by Nazis (yes, the pilot in question might not have been a Nazi, but he killed for them), you might feel you have a right to interject when someone publicly sends a Hallmark card the fellow's way.

I find it... odd, that people jump on the person who cites being wronged, more than the person who did the wrong.

(I'm 39 by the way. My father was an tank officer in the Canadian army in WWII in Italy and my grandfather drove a tank for the American army in WWI in France.)



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 08:05 PM
Bearcat99 - you should never forget about what happened to your ancestors on the passage which has nothing to do with loving or hating your country. However, if you actually met a living and a breathing trader today I'd like to see you give him your blessings - not many people would do that and I'd admire you for that. Then again, if you were able to do that you'd be a Saint and I don't think you'd ever be capable of killing another human being no matter what.

Bottom line, I might not be able to forgive and I say crap about the man but that's as far as I go - I'm surely not sharpening my axe - I would not want him dead before his time - he had his judgement coming and he is where he is.

Most people are eager to "forgive" that man to make themselves feel better because they would pick up their gun to be shipped off somewhere in no time. I don't forgive because what he did was unacceptable by my standards, I would never *volunteer* myself to do the killing for anyone and I don't think anyone else should.

"Noble" violence and murder is still just that and I'm not signing off on that.



Message Edited on 09/23/03 07:07PM by cracovian

Message Edited on 09/23/0307:08PM by cracovian

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 08:07 PM
Why don't you expect him to meet any of his victims on the other side. Do you not think he has the same forgiveness as we all do? Because just as your grandfather killed others in war and my uncles killed in that war and other wars, everyone has forgiveness, if they took the time to ask and recongnize God for who he is. Kinda felt led to reply to your post. Think about that before you flame me. And BTW, the majority of Americans don't live in the past and are a forgiving people. May this WWII ace rest in peace. We are destined to live our lives here and he did his job very well, even if it was his bullet that killed my family.
cracovian wrote:
- The thing is I don't hate anyone and nowhere did I
- say I do. I just don't have any respect towards
- those soldiers or don't expect them to meet a lot of
- their victims after they die.
-
- Honestly, it was weird to see all the well-wishers
- here and I decided to provide you with some counter
- balance. What freaks me out the most though is that
- some of my fellow Americans would respond in such
- nasty way to that.
-
-
- P.S. Just because Stuka created so much destruction
- in the early stages of the blitzkrieg (including my
- homeland) doesn't stop me from considering this one
- of my favorite aircraft in this game. However, their
- volunteer pilots and their comrades will rot in the
- hell for what they've done. No need to call for any
- wings on their final and long-overdue journey...
-
- Also, I don't know if it's the same History channel
- we're all watching but it's been very clear that
- without the active involvement of the majority of
- the German society, this small group of creatures
- would have not been able to execute their plans to
- the degree they did. It was not the first time it
- happened either. Innocent were the Germans who stood
- up, refused to kill their own people and others and
- ended up dead or in concentration camps themselves
- (there were plenty of those.)
-
- If it hadn't been for those types of real and brave
- people we would have still worshipped the gods of
- the Roman Empire. These are some beautiful souls
- worth thinking about...
-
- One more thing... 6 million people in Poland and 20
- million of people in Russia alone (the vast majority
- of them, civilians) is a lot of people to kill for
- the SS and the "leadership" alone though it's always
- convenient to blame it on them.
-
-
-
- necrobaron wrote:
-
-- Cracovian,I'm sorry your grandfather died in that
-- horrible war. Mine fought with the 4th Infantry in
-- the US Army in the disastrous 1st attempt to contest
-- Rommel at Fondouk Pass in Tunisia. Most of his
-- comrades died while he was taken prisoner. After
-- being liberated from the prison camp(in Africa) he
-- was shot twice and received a Purple Heart. Despite
-- this,I don't have hatred for the common German
-- soldier or pilot. They were doing their job as my
-- grandfather was doing his. It was nothing personal.
-- Grislawski was no different. The majority of the
-- German military were NOT Nazis. If you want to point
-- fingers,do it at the SS and the rest of the German
-- leadership. We all know where they belong...
--
-- RIP,Mr. Grislawski....
--
--
--
-- 47|FC
-- http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg
--
--
-- Message Edited on 09/22/03 09:05PM by
-- necrobaron
-
-
-
-
-
-
- Message Edited on 09/23/03 03:12AM by cracovian
-
- Message Edited on 09/23/03 03:16AM by cracovian
-
- Message Edited on 09/23/03 03:20AM by cracovian

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 12:45 AM
I don't care if he was or was not the worst nazi ever - I think the guy is (was, may his soul find peace etc) cool because he flew fighters in WW2, and that is what we're all interested in. Molest me not with politics.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 01:10 AM
Well, he finally gets to shake hands with St. Horridus himself...

Hals und Beinbruch,

and olne last

HORRIDO!

-dolfo

Ja te atendo, Tche!

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 01:31 AM
Where are the so-called moderators...

When a fool and/or ignorant troll like this crakosh*t or whatever his name is, jumps in and destroys a thread, they are no where to be found... His "over Ten posts" rating shows that he has jumped in without any earlier substantive, Flight Sim/FB, participation. he jumped in JUST to cause strife.

Should have been banned for starting political discussion on an originally Aviation-based thread.


Mark his name down...you'll see this fool again on the forum, stirring things up just to get attention.

<center>Wiley</center><center><font color="#FF0000";font size="3pt">Click HERE to visit Wiley'sWWIIGunCameraWorld (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Frameset/)</center>
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<center><font size ="2pt">Click Flag-Raising for the Full-Size(4.2Mb) Version</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 06:46 AM
Alfred Griwalski

May you Rest in Peace


3./Jg51 salutes you!


http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg


"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 06:49 AM
I've one question to this bum who's unwilling to let the poor man rest in peace, WHAT THE **** ARE YOU DOING PLAYING THIS WAR FLIGHT SIM ???? DO YOU WANT TO SHOOT DOWN GERMAN PILOTS, BUDDY? YOU'RE NO DIFFERENT FROM THE PEOPLE YOU SUPPOSEDLY HATE. SO STOP DEFILING THE ACE'S MEMORY AND GET OFF THIS FORUM.

http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg


"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 07:10 AM
some ppl are to young to understand what a soldier realy is like.especialy from those who have never served......i supose *** hat you would also think it fun to run through a grave yard kicking over head stones of every body you dont like as well .........please leave this thread and allow proper respect to a great pilot ..wether you agree or not.......just go yelling on another thread ok....... go start one now .....hell ill do it for you ........... go look

U.S INFANTRY 84-91

Message Edited on 09/23/0311:22PM by tenmmike

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 08:52 AM
Cracovian, I owe you all the respect for how Poland was messed by the invading forces, Germans and Russians, during ww2.
Still i disagree on your point of view. We often see veterans of both sides fraternizing after the end of the war. No hate, just mutual respct. Does it suggest you something? Why is it so? Why so many good and brave pilots of both sides became friends shortly afterwar?
One more point. Did your country ever fought a wrong war? If so we should conclude that all the soldiers died for that wrong war deserve hell. Isn't it too simplistic? More, if one is aginst the war in Iraq, he should conclude that the Polish soldiers fighting there deserve the hell too. Isn't it a paradox? Plz I don't want to start a discussion on Iraq, I just want to point out a possible paradox.
Yes there are right and wrong wars, but things appear clearly right or wrong after putting some historical distance from facts. It's hard to claim tha people SHOULD be always aware if they're fighting a right or wrong war when the war is going on. This implies that every single person should be able to judge accurately and properly the policy of his own country and the historical circumstances he's involved with, and most of all he should have all the needed information to make a correct evaluation. Do you think that living under a disctatorship, with massive use of propaganda and brainwashing is something that makes it easy to have the right decision, admitted you can actually decide? Do you think that all soldiers-citizenzs, specially those of 65 yers ago had the average political culture and the information we have today?

May Alfred Grislawsky rest in peace.

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>


Message Edited on 09/24/0310:00AM by Abraxa

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 11:55 AM
R.I.P. Alfred Grislawski. What a Dude you were in that 109.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 01:04 PM
cracovian wrote
- P.S. Just because Stuka created so much destruction
- in the early stages of the blitzkrieg (including my
- homeland) doesn't stop me from considering this one
- of my favorite aircraft in this game. However, their
- volunteer pilots and their comrades will rot in the
- hell for what they've done. No need to call for any
- wings on their final and long-overdue journey...


I wasn't sure just where you were coming from until I got to this part. Now I get it. If you approve, its cool. If you disapprove,its evil.

That must be a hell of a burden to carry for 1 man. To decide who was right and who was wrong from the millions who took part in one of the worlds darkest chapters.

There is a really broad picture to try and encompass for you to try and view it thru such a small perspective.

I am proud to be one of your fellow americans. My father and 3 uncles fought against the axis powers. I am also proud to say "Farewell Alfred & S!

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 01:33 PM
*Sigh*; and there goes another one... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
It's not even that long ago the last WW1 pilot died, and now the WW2-pilots are starting to die off as well. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

S, mr. Grislawski. Check six, and rest in peace; having fought in and survived the most brutal conflict in human history, you deserve it...

And my respect to anyone who fought and died in WW2 and -1, soldier or civilian: If a war was ever necessary, WW2 was; the end of WW2 marked a much-needed shift from bickering nation-states to cooperation and codependance between countries. Just look at Germany and France; two nations known for centuries of hateful, bloody warfare. They still don't like each other, and never will, of course, but at least we can all rest assured that their quarreling will be limited to the usual trading of insults across the border.

That it had to cost some 16 million human lives in WW1 and 55 million in WW2 is of course one of the more sad traits of the human race.





-----------------------------------

"I don't know what weapons World War 3 will be fought with, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
-A. Einstein
"And any leftover assault weapons" -Fallout Fan


I am an Arado whiner. And the only one, it would seem... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://www.vectorsite.net/avar234.html
Not my site. But a good place to start if you want to join the Arado-whining. The Arado needs *you* today!

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 01:38 PM
Seems cracovian is in the firm believe his family was the only which suffered of the war. cracovian there are many members in here at that board, who suffered a loss of a beloved person during WWII.

Others lost their home, country and all they had. Some were diplaced by Polish just after the war, among them my family too. My father himself saw a wounded German boy in the age of under 10 years who suffered injuries of a found hand grenade which exploded in his hands, that was just before large scale displacement of German population begun. And you know what cracovian?

Those "though" Polish let that German boy die without helping him. Those "though" Polish denied medical help to that German boy, in the only reason that 10 year old was German.

I can tell some more examples of what "innocent" Polish did to Germans, just some days after the war. So please shut your mouth with "we poor, we suffered so much....." others did as well./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die Lüfte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif


http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/Forums/



Message Edited on 09/24/0301:39PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 01:55 PM
Very sad to hear. Not many left now of the experten.

RIP Alfred /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

<center>



http://www.fornberg.com/mystery0074.jpg
</center>
<center>
<div style="width:400;color:F0FFFF;fontsize:11pt;filter: glow[color=black,strength=4)">
Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 03:48 PM
With the nic like "oberst" I don't expect any more of you... I wonder if you've got the "flags" all over your trailer home as well.

I don't get paid or will I ever get paid for killing and there's nothing wrong about not forgiving those individual murderers. You're free to salute with your fist all you want in this GAME-related forum but if you think that banning someone will make you feel better then it's a very sorry life you live.



OberstWiley wrote:
- Where are the so-called moderators...
-
- When a fool and/or ignorant troll like this
- crakosh*t or whatever his name is, jumps in and
- destroys a thread, they are no where to be found...
- His "over Ten posts" rating shows that he has jumped
- in without any earlier substantive, Flight Sim/FB,
- participation. he jumped in JUST to cause strife.
-
-
- Should have been banned for starting political
- discussion on an originally Aviation-based thread.
-
-
- Mark his name down...you'll see this fool again
- on the forum, stirring things up just to get
- attention.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 03:58 PM
Abraxa and Kimura - You're missing my point. I don't care if he's German, Polish, Russian, or whatever. I only hoped he'd fry after his "fruitful" life because he *voluntarily* killed people. I don't care if he was a soldier or not either. Unless he was a kid or ******ed he was free to make his own choices and there's ABSOLUTELY no excuse for taking other lives away. That applies to everyone though deep down I'm partial to our boys and girls fighting the "right" war 'cause I'm only human and... American.

Some are saluting him - I'm not - that's my choice.



Message Edited on 09/24/0303:00PM by cracovian

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 05:17 PM
I don't think I missed your point. I just made some exaples of people of several nations fighting a war whose rightness appears doubtful, and I tried to show how difficult is to decide and judge under some special circumstances, like living under a dictaroship, or showered by political and nationalistic porpaganda. We are partly in the same situation even today, in several parts of the "democratic" world, we just don't see it, but that's another story.
I try to furtherly explain my point with another example and a question. The very same Russian soldier who invaded Poland in 1939 and then defended his own country from the Germans will deserve heaven or hell? It's very debatable as you see. The very same person fights a wrong war one day and a brave right war the day immediately after. how do you consider him?
This summer I was in Normandy and I felt the same pityful feelings visiting the British, the German and the American cemeteries. I just saw thousands of graves of wasted young lives, nothing more, and it hurted in any case. I reallycouldn't see the actors of evil and good.
That told, you have your right not to salute Grislawsky. I have no problem with it.

Cheers

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>


Message Edited on 09/24/0306:18PM by Abraxa

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 05:19 PM
cracovian wrote:
- With the nic like "oberst" I don't expect any more
- of you... I wonder if you've got the "flags" all
- over your trailer home as well.
-
- I don't get paid or will I ever get paid for killing
- and there's nothing wrong about not forgiving those
- individual murderers. You're free to salute with
- your fist all you want in this GAME-related forum
- but if you think that banning someone will make you
- feel better then it's a very sorry life you live.
-


Too bad you can't get paid for hating. You seem to have a gift for it. Now once again, please go away.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 05:50 PM
WTH??? This thread is all about hating me for expressing my lack of RESPECT for the killers (including this one). Stop picking on me and I'll leave this senseless thread alone.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 06:16 PM
R.I.P. ~S~

http://jg50.com/images/NewSig.jpg

http://www.jg50.com

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 06:24 PM
Abraxa - I totally understand and agree with what you're saying. I would never see myself as an ultimate judge in convicting someone but the same goes for proclaiming someone to be innocent.

The Russian soldier example is good but some distinction can be made here as well. They were mostly volunteers in 1939 and they knew what they were doing, especially when executing prisoners of war in cold blood. Later on, tons of Russian boys were drafted against their own will to defend mother Russia with their own machine guns pointing at their rears. But again, some of those guys raped defensless German women in Berlin by thousands and I hope they'll pay or have paid for that too. Not much respect left for those little b@stards here either and I don't care how long they live, how many books they write and what cool planes or motorcycles they rode. Whoever is up there will sort them out but at least I learned a history lesson and you won't see me fighting in the desert like millions of others are still eager to do.

It's just too easy for us to blame our own horrendous actions on the mistakes of our youth, or the leadership, or the propaganda calling for more land for our superior race. It's sad to see that we're still doing the same thing 60 years down the road.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 06:39 PM
We might ask some of the surviving Polish Jews what they thought of the Polish Police during the war. War is Hell.
Cravokian, you have no idea what it is to be a soldier. However, if you were drafted and given your orders, you would follow them, I'll guarantee you that

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 06:44 PM
Cracovian, I think our partly different point of views may come again from the history of our countries.
You come - if I understand correctly - from a country, Poland, subjected to both an invasion and the martyrdom of its people. From this point of view, I can perfectly understand and even respect your anger, and I really don't consider you a flat "hating" person. I know people that for their personal experience during WW2 (they survived SS massacres) can't even hear someone speaking German. No offense meant, in other part of the world, there will be people who won't like to hear English, Italian or French... I can understand their - and your - feelings and their tragedy, but even with all the due respect that any tragedy deserves, I can't agree. It's their tragical experience, not mine (fortunately for myself), and I can allow myself to be more balanced.
I was born in a country - Italy - that started a wrong war and ended it with a civil war, the worst tragedy for a nation, Italians killing Italians. Enough to see any black/white, evil/good concept, any generalization, totally meaningless and useless to understand and start again. This is not denying responsibilities, even the ones carried by common people and soldiers. It's just seeing a "scale" of responsabilities, where the soldier fighting another soldier can't be simplistically seen as a murderer (I obviously am not referring to soldiers killing civilians...).

Cheers

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>



Message Edited on 09/24/0307:46PM by Abraxa

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 05:08 AM
It amazes me how people make judgements upon others yet they have never walked in their shoes.......Typical amongst our modern so-called society.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 06:55 PM
I know this thread is a few days old but this thing I just read puts the whole debate in perspective about those "evil" killers..on all sides.....

The Spitfire goes down, a flaming torch now, hurtling
towards the snowfield. It will crash there and be utterly
destroyed. And with it the pilot.
I find myself shouting as if he could hear me: " Bale out,
lad, bale out! " After all, he is human, too; a soldier, too,
and a pilot with the same love of the sky and clouds that I feel.
Does he also have a wife, a girl like Lilo, perhaps ?
" Bale out, lad, bale out! "
Then a body becomes detached from the flames and falls
clear. A white parachute spreads open and drifts slowly down
into the mountains.
A feeling of pure joy is in my heart now. This is my first
combat victory in the air. I have got my man, and he is alive.
Dieter and I share the bottle of brandy. We drink a toast
to our own fighter pilots, and another one to our Tommy.
Dieter brings him in, after landing in the mountains in a
Fieseler Storch fitted with skis. He is a tall, slim Pilot Officer
in the Royal Air Force. A stiff drink of brandy does him a lot
of good. He joins in the laughter when I explain how the
entire bottle was actually dedicated to him.

They were all just men. Most of them honorable men and we should remember that when we come here to fly in this sim which like it or not is a tribute to each and every one of them. Each time we boot up and come here we are honoring them... Bader,Hartmann,Zemke,Archer and the countless others who flew these awesome planes.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:18 PM
Maybe someone can make a skin from his plane, as a sort of memorial

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 07:20 PM
http://www.cptfarrels.com

47|FC
http://rangerring.com/wwii/p-47.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 09:40 PM
I just wanted to mention that Stalin stabbed Poland in the back. How many did Stalin and the communists kill? One example is the Katyn Forest.

"Although the total of the Stalin order is given as 25,700, I understand that a 3rd March, 1959 KGB report by KGB head Aleksandr Shelepin, gives the figure of 21,857 as the number of Poles actually shot as a result of this order.

4,421 in the Katyn Forest (Smolensk region)
3,820 in the Starobelsk camp (near Kharkov)
6,311 in the Ostashkovo camp (Kalinin region)
7,305 in other camps and prisons in western Ukraine and western Belorussia"

Take a look at:

http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/BACK/Casualties.htm

or

The New York Times
" A monumental and completely absorbing volume that creates vivid portraits of...two tyrants, while illuminating the first half of this blood-stained century."
From Kirkus Reviews , January 15, 1992
A masterpiece by Bullock (Ernest Bevin, 1984, etc.) that covers some of the most devastating events--as well as two of the most terrible personalities--of our century with breathtaking analytical power and narrative sweep. One of the most fruitful aspects of this dual biography is to reveal, for all the differences between Hitler and Stalin, how much they had in common. The differences were mainly in personality: Stalin the great calculator, Hitler the gambler; Stalin the master of bureaucracy, Hitler the artist-politician, hating routine; Stalin the sly, political Houdini, Hitler the charismatic leader. But their similarities were perhaps more significant. Both were guilty of crimes against humanity on a scale unprecedented in history: Like the Jews in Germany, peasant farmers in the Soviet Union were members of an outlawed class denied all human rights. The corruption in the heart of Nazism, according to Bullock, lay in its ends; in Communism, in its means. Neither Hitler nor Stalin, he believes, was mad. Both were entirely serious about their historic roles, the author says; skeptical about the motives of others, their cynicism stopped short of their own. But Hitler, at the end, was close to insanity; and Stalin had all the symptoms associated with paranoia--chronic suspicion, self-absorption, jealousy, hypersensitivity, and megalomania. Both men brought unprecedented suffering on their own people; the difference, Bullock notes, is that defeat exacted a terrible price from the German people, but at least spared them the continuation of Nazism, while victory cost the Russian people even more--but did not liberate them. A magnificent history, accessible and often moving. Bullock's mastery of research sources, his judgment, and his analytic powers prove him one of the great historians of our time. (Seventy-one photographs and 18 maps--not seen.) -- Copyright 1992, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

Look at the following reference:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/HOLO.TAB1.GIF


Note that the estimate of the number of people killed by the USSR is almost 3 times that of Germany. Also, note that the figures in the table are in thousands (e.g., 61,911 is 61,911,000).

People do terrible things. I don't know how many native Americans were killed by Europeans but some estimates are as high as 60 million (certainly it was in millions). Most were killed by disease (sometimes spread deliberately) but probably most often accidentally. The British invented the concentration camp in the Boer War. My great grandfather died fighting for the South in the War of Northern Aggression (the U.S. Civil War). I fought in Vietnam where many civilians were killed (primarily by air strikes and artillery but some were murdered) and now the Vietnamese are systematically exterminating the Hmong and Montagard. The Dutch, the Belgians, the French all had murderous and cruely colonial regimes.

My point, while the Hitler and the Nazis did many terrible and horrible things they were not unique. Most soldiers do what they need to do to stay alive.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 10:01 PM
How in the world this information, which ,by the way, is well know to every educated person changes the fact that LW pilot did in fact uphold the Nazy regime.

KGB officers who carried out Stalin's genocide orders were war criminals. Soviet pilots, who protected their own land were not.

An we will know very little or nothing at all about Geramans who did have guts to stand agains nazism. Those were real heros.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 10:13 PM
GMichaelP - interesting stats - thanks for sharing.
Stalin stabbed Poland not just in the back by killing all of those officers in Katyn but he kept stabbing long before and after. He specifically targeted the officers because in those days they usually came from noble families and were well eductated. He was hitting Poland in its heart many times and finally finished Poland off with the the final blow of building Nowa Huta steel mill (using retired and outdated technology and machinery from Pittsburgh) 6 miles from the center of Cracow (cool movie to watch on the subject is "the man of marble" and "the man of steel" by Krzysztof Kieslowski). It only recently took close to ten years to restore some monuments to their former splendor but you can see acid-rain melted faces on sculptures everywhere. The Germans did horrendous things to those poor people but the Russians have often topped it.

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 10:21 PM
Radeon9800XT - There was an awesome show on the History channel quite recently about Hitler's unprecedented rise to power. They had some interviews with the Germans on both sides of the fence. I was very surprised to see how many people didn't give in and even more surprised to see them survive the war and concentration camps. They could have joined the army or the police or take their neighbors in but they didn't. Those are some noble individuals right there.



Message Edited on 09/25/0309:21PM by cracovian

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 10:30 PM
I saw that too...Hiedrich was down right scary......the guy made Sadaam like like Padre Pio. As for the people and why they didnt revolt....it was a different time then. There was much more repect for authority especially in an authoritarian society like Germany was then. Also you have to consider the mindset of the peiople then...dont forget the worlds economy was shot....the German economy was a real mess.......... that had to play into it because I just dont believe that people will do things like that when times are good but as we all know hard times bring out the very worst inhumanity in humanity.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 12:47 AM
cracovian wrote:
- Abraxa and Kimura - You're missing my point. I don't
- care if he's German, Polish, Russian, or whatever. I
- only hoped he'd fry after his "fruitful" life
- because he *voluntarily* killed people.

If that is your point cracovian (what I'm doubt of) you have to damn everyone who took part on any war in world's history and killed someone. Easy that./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



"......und mein Herz steigt wie ein Falke in die Lüfte!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif


http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/Forums/

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 03:02 AM
I have to say that if you think someone should "fry" because as a warrior they voluntarily killed people I don't see how you can play FB or any other war game. Also, I don't see any difference in the average LW pilot or German soldier who fought for the "fatherland" and the Russian soldier who defended the "motherland". Many international communists were idealists but that pretty much ended in the late 1930's when Stalin betrayed the communists and socialist in the west.

Both German and Russian soldiers had very limited access to information other than propaganda. Just compare how the media has been manipulated in the two conflicts in Iraq with how the Vietnam War was shown and think about a government having absolute control over the press. WWII was born out of WWI and the great depression. In Germany during the depression, one could "buy" a nice girl for a bar of soap and a loaf of bread with a wheelbarrow of money. They didn't have television, access to information except through local newspaper and some radio. Hell, David Duke was almost elected as Governor or Louisiana a few years ago.

Hitler was admired by many British and Americans. The communists and national socialists battled in the streets. Also, read about the Germans who did the executions. I am no expert but I think you will find most were either SS or from other countries. POWs and displaced civilians were organized into military and Para-military organizations and much of the killing, while certainly sectioned by the leaders of Germany, was not carried out by ordinary soldiers.

I knew a guy in Vietnam who was a mental wreck because he had killed 5 women in sampans. It was night (in the Delta) and they had an ambush set up along a stream. The sampans came along (it was a free fire zone) and he popped a claymore and opened up with his M-16. Who bears that guilt? I and every other American who supported that war or who even didn't support the war but who didn't go to jail is in my opinion as guilty or not guilty as that man.

We are not admiring members of the Waffen SS or pretending to support the master race or Uncle Joe. I think this condemnation of ordinary warriors is as unthinking as the idea of "fighting with honor."

So I don't see much difference in the soldiers who fought for the Reich against a regime they were taught was godless, decadent, and evil and the soviets who fought for a regime that killed more people than any in history. Both regimes were evil (and the U.S. and Britain were not angelic) but most soldiers loved their countries, their families, and their comrades. Some raped, some murdered, but except for the special units I think these were rare behaviors.

Also, the question of how much the average German knew about the concentration camps and other mass murders has not been answered. I have not read "Hitler's Willing Executioners" although the issue of collective German guilt has always been something I have wanted to know more about. However, I asked a political science faculty member who is an expert on modern Germany about that book and was told that it was regarding as being hopelessly flawed. I do believe that most Germans must have known that something evil was going on but the same must have been true of most Russians.

But to play at war and then condemn those who fought and killed in a real war is to me a perversion.

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 03:05 AM
Rest In Peace, Sir.

~S~ To a True Ace.

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 03:24 AM
It is true these men be they allied or Axis were called upon to sacrifice their youth and their lives for their respective countries. Was Alfred a victim yes he was. The point to keep in mind here is that he did his duty as an airman.For this he should be honored as a warrior.



Message Edited on 09/26/0302:32AM by dragonhart38

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 03:27 AM
S! Rest in Peace, Herr Grislawski.


Message Edited on 09/26/0302:27AM by rbstr44

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 03:32 AM
S! rip.

After it was refeuled i climbed in.With many manipulations the mechcanics started the turbines.I followed their actions with the greatest of interest.The first one started quite easily.the second caught fire.In no time the whole engine was on fire.Luckily as a fighter pilot i was used to getting quickly out of the cockpit.The fire was quickly put out.The second plane caused no trouble - Adolf Galland (first time in a ME262)

After it was refeuled i climbed in.With many manipulations the mechcanics started the turbines.I followed their actions with the greatest of interest.The first one started quite easily.the second caught fire.In no time the whole engine was on fire.Luckily as a fighter pilot i was used to getting quickly out of the cockpit.The fire was quickly put out.The second plane caused no trouble - Adolf Galland (first time in a ME262)

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 03:47 AM
GMichelP,

You made some good points. Nice to see a few people starting to take the high road in this thread.

I still think the problem here is how Cracovian got jumped on, quite mercilessly, for his one, short original comment. One fellow said he should be banned for suggesting that Herr Grislawski would be shaking hands with Hitler now that he was dead. Would he be banned for saying Chuck Yeager will one day shake hands with Roosevelt?

It's not so much that Cracovian was rebuffed for his comment, but he was damn near beheaded for for it. That -
the way some people rose to the defence of a pilot who flew with a swastika, was suprising to say the least. And the way they condemned the wounded was also surprising.

Granted, we are all virtual warriors here, mimicking history and recreating it for our satisfaction, but I'm sure many outsiders would be... surprised, to read this thread and see on whose side the majority came down.

Mind you, I am biased, I seldom if ever fly for Germany. From CFS1 through to FB, I fly Allied Airways only. If I want to fly a -109, it's wearing Britsh colours. I just can't shoot down Allied planes, even in a game. Just doesn't feel right.



"Official Lancaster Whiner"

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 04:11 AM
Not respecting a man who fought for his beliefs or his country? Shame on you!!
As long as the person willing to give or gave his life in combat and is or were not involved in war-crimes he deserves respect.

Hope you got all from life you wanted.. RIP

rgds

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 04:14 AM
I guess despite being American, I still have that cold Teutonic blood deep within me, along with some Frenchie blood as well /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I enjoy flying and playing with German equipment, and I highly respect the Axis aviators....

But boy am I glad the Allies won the war.

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 04:31 AM
Beirut,

Thanks for the kind word. Cracovian certainly has the right to express his opinion. I think he should have done so in a less strident manner. I always liked Churchill's comment to the effect that if circumstance forces me to kill a man it does not require me to be uncivil (he expressed it better). But I think many folks want to think that only one side was guilty of doing things that in retrospect can be condemned. The U.S. fire bombing of Tokyo and the area bombing of Germany are operations that need to be remembered. Perhaps both actions were justified but no one wants to examine these decisions which killed, combined, over 1 million civilians. Nonetheless, I don't blame the bomber crews who carried out very difficult missions under absolutely horrible circumstances. I can think of no place worse to be than in a Lanc (except in a Stirling or HP) over Germany in 1944. I also think that the failure to award Bomber Command its own Campaign Medal was shameful.

Perhaps area bombing of both Germany and Japan shortened the war and saved lives. Perhaps it wasn't justified and bordered on being a war crime. I think these issues should be debated but I don't think we should denigrate the thousands of young men who died what had to be horrible deaths.

I guess I am old enough to think that except for babies and young children, no one is really innocent. Perhaps because I have committed my share of sins. But I hope that I have not betrayed anyone.

By the way, do you know if any progress is being made on Target for Tonight?
.