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View Full Version : Heinz Knoke....who do you believe?



XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 06:56 PM
Just finished "I flew for the Fuhrer" and must say that i`m rather confused. I don`t know who to believe anymore. It appears to me that "outdated" as some people call it ME109 was the king of high altitude combat. And all the statements that P-51D and T-Bolt were superior to it based on nothing. Before you jump into any conclusions and start flaming me....i didn`t write it. Heinz did. Same applies to 190D which NEEDED cover of 109`s since it couldn`t hold it`s own against Mustangs and T-Bolts, due to superior odds. Just a fact that he was leading group of 40 109`s against 1200 USAAF planes, almost 400 of which were fighter cover. So who`s lying? Why did he come back alive from that mess along with 80% of his crew and managed to take out 1 B-17th and 2 TBolts? Was he a superman or something? Or maybe his crew was so good... 90% just outta flight school? Alot of things don`t make sence. Do you think if LW would meet 8th AF in equal odds american boys would make it back home?


Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 06:56 PM
Just finished "I flew for the Fuhrer" and must say that i`m rather confused. I don`t know who to believe anymore. It appears to me that "outdated" as some people call it ME109 was the king of high altitude combat. And all the statements that P-51D and T-Bolt were superior to it based on nothing. Before you jump into any conclusions and start flaming me....i didn`t write it. Heinz did. Same applies to 190D which NEEDED cover of 109`s since it couldn`t hold it`s own against Mustangs and T-Bolts, due to superior odds. Just a fact that he was leading group of 40 109`s against 1200 USAAF planes, almost 400 of which were fighter cover. So who`s lying? Why did he come back alive from that mess along with 80% of his crew and managed to take out 1 B-17th and 2 TBolts? Was he a superman or something? Or maybe his crew was so good... 90% just outta flight school? Alot of things don`t make sence. Do you think if LW would meet 8th AF in equal odds american boys would make it back home?


Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:07 PM
A good book ill read it 12 years ago.
This thing 1200 usaf a/c aginst 40 lw a/c, well tactics is also importent surely they dident faced them all at once, and those US planes probly was tie down to sevral missions like escort recon interdiction, you name it...

But it was achivment no less...

I can also recomend to paperback books in the subject:

JG 26 the topguns of luftwaffe, and
Luftwaffe aces

Of curse as a finn ill need to mention that during the great soviet offensiv aginst Finland 1944 on the carelian isthums finland had 132 figthers aginst 1500 soviet a/c

Popse

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:15 PM
Where the 109's able to climb higher than the P-47s and P-51 initially in Herr Knoke's account? Was the initial speed of the American fighters limited by being tied to escort duty? There are so many factors involved in any particular fight.

What is the exact title of this book Ivan? I'll have to read it.

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:24 PM
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1853672637/cyberhaven00/102-6037720-5444904 there ya go faustnik

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:39 PM
Well, many of the German aces seem to think they had superior planes right until the end.

Gunther Rall's answer to the question about their tactics against P-47 was:

"Shoot them down!"

He continued that they had no problems against Thunderbolts because their planes (109) performance was better in all areas except dive speed.

He liked P-51 a lot but but basically he liked things like electric starter, cockpit view and comfort, etc... Not so much the performance as far as I understood it, as he mentioned that he had very good performing planes himself.

But he had great respect for P-51 for sure.

From Russian planes he had the greatest respect for the La-5 to La-7 series. They performed very well, and at times he wasn't able to catch them and shoot them down.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:43 PM
As far as numbers don`t exist LW was ruling the skies.

"degustibus non disputandum"

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<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:47 PM
Don't infer too much from one person's experience. You can also read stories from other Luftwaffe pilots whose units suffered heavy losses depending upon the tactical situation that they found themselves in. The same iwould hold true for some American units.

I just got through reading Bud Fortier's book. Astonishing how few of their P-47 and P-51 combat losses were due to air to air combat and how many, many there were to flak and accidents.

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:50 PM
Well LW pilots was not as good in 1944-45 (with some excption like Knoke ,Hartman and Nowotny) as in the early waryears.
Or maybe the enemies had catch up.
Thats why they organized a big training reserv who they pointlessly used up in operation "bodenplatte"Dec 1944!

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:50 PM
Like all who survive, Knoke had his share of luck. Also, he was like a Terrier, he really did go for it! His book is a classic. I feel that his description that no other contempory fighter could follow his spiral climbs in the 109 tells quite alot!
Regards! SM

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:55 PM
I'll start by saying that I haven't read Heinz Knoke's book, so I'll base my comments on what's in the thread so far.
You've got to ask yourself what the mission of each player was. The P-47's weren't there to rack up their score, they were there to keep the bombers alive. 600 went out, 599 came back. Sounds like the Jugs did their job. Heinz and his buds went out with 40 aircraft against appalling odds, and got one bomber out of 600. Not such a good day from that perspective.
As to the two Jugs that were shot down. Again, what was the mission? The mission was bombs on target. Everything else, including escort, is merely support for that mission. Sometimes to be a team player you've got to lean into the strike zone and take one for the team.

Blotto

"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter craft, no matter how technically advanced." - A. Galland

"Look, do you want the jets, or would you rather I slap the props back on?" - W. Messerschmitt

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:57 PM
crazyivan,


FW190D was a low/medium altitude fighter (good up to about 7k meters) and did just fine against P51's, P47's, Tempests and Spitfires within its designed flight envelope.

IIRC, Knoke shot down three or four T-bolts over his flying career. He was also himself shot down a few times as well and was quite lucky to survive the war.

Knoke's 40 plane formation was not the only German unit in the air. Germany had more than two thousand single engine fighters committed to homeland defence in 1944. At least one third of those would have technically been in a physical (geographical) position to intercept any Allied bomber raid over any given part of Germany. Allowing for a mission ready percentage of about 75-80 percent, Germany could have put at least 600 fighters into the air. Of those, probably one half were in anti-bomber configuration, weighed down with extra underwing weapon packs of various sorts, and therefore not well suited to fight opposing fighters. That would have left about 300 or so escort fighters. Not exactly overwhelming ods .......


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:58 PM
Heinz Knoke was lucky to be in a 109 ...he could have had this experience:

"During the American daylight air raids, the German tactical command - the fighter divisions and Luftflotte Reich - was seriously hampered in directing the air battle by a general confusion about the air situation. As a remedy, Bf 110s of a 'destroyer' wing were used for tactical reconnaissance. Unfortunately, every plane was lost to American fighters.

When I came back in early '44 to II/NJG5, from a stint as test pilot I volunteered to fly a few of these reconnaissance sorties. I changed tactics and flew very low, thereby avoiding detection. On one of these flights, I caught an American pathfinder, a B-24 Liberator, flying by itself. Since I had to climb up, I had to attack from behind, and with not all that much speed advantage. My 20mm cannons had only an effective range of about 800m against a 1500m range of the very accurate American .50 caliber (12.7 mm) machine guns. It took an eternity to fly through their fire, but I finally got into shooting position and brought this Liberator down in flames, the crew barely having time to parachute. After landing, I counted over 50 machine gun hits in my plane. And none of the other 9 or 10 Bf 110s of our Group which had sortied that day returned. Of course, most crews came back after awhile, parachute under arm. "

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 08:02 PM
Blottogg....that 1 B-17 and 2 Tbolts Knoke shot down...there were quiet a few others that came back with victories.

As i said, there is no words that coming from me in this thread. Whatever man wrote, i`m delivering /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 08:06 PM
But still USAF reacht any target on the european continent by 1944-45

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 08:07 PM
No one is questioning Knoke. He was an ace and was good at his job. The point is that you can read similar stories from American, British, and Soviet ace pilots as well. The good ones were successful and all of them believed that they were the BEST. There is no such thing as a fighter pilot with a small ego!

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 08:19 PM
Salute

Ah, the myth of a tiny few Germans versus the horde of USAAF.

Go back and re-read the book and check your dates, and the combat. Then read some technical info regarding USAAF heavy bomber operations.

First of all:

Yes, 109's had to escort 190's, but they were 190A's, not 190D's. During his combats against USAAF bombers, mostly between January 1944 and May 1944, the 190D was not active. It was not in use till the end of August of 1944. At that time, Knoke was in hospital.

The 190A was notorious for having poor performance over 20,000 ft. Yet it carried the most powerful set of guns of any Luftwaffe plane. So the Germans organized their attacks with a group of 109's, which had better higher altitude performance, covering the 190's. This was especially true of the 109G6AS which appeared in May of 1944. If you re-read the book, you will find the page where he mentions getting the new 109's 9 (in May) with the larger supercharger and better high altitude performance. Up until that time, the Germans were flying the 109G6 Late.

Second in regards to 40 planes versus 1200, that would be exaggeration.

USAAF Bombers:

The USAAF bombers in a given mission operated in multiple "Combat Boxes", each of which was comprised of 3 Bomber Groups, staggered in altitude,"High, Medium and Low". Each Group normally had 18 aircraft. So a "Combat Box" would have 64 aircraft which could support each other. Other Combat Boxes were too far away to provide gunfire support. And when the raid involved 800 bombers, as was fairly typical during the period Knoke was flying, they were spread out over a minimum of a hundred miles.

The German fighters normally concentrated against the Low Group, since only the medium alt Group in the Combat Box could provide covering fire support, since the high group was too far away for effective fire from its .50's.

The Germans would be attacking an 64 plane bomber formation, and taking fire from 36 planes in that formation.

USAAF Fighters:

Fighter escort available averaged around 700-800 during the missions Knoke was going against.

However, due to the fact the Fighters had a higher cruise speed, and shorter range, they couldn't stay with the Bombers for the entire 8-10 hour flight. This was especially the case in the period Jan. 1944 to May 1944, when 75% of the USAAF fighters were P-47's, which only had an endurance of approximately 4 hours. Fighter Groups, normally numbering 54 aircraft would be rotated in and out of covering positions. So at any one time, of the perhaps 600-800 Fighters assigned to escort, there might be 200-300 present covering the Bomber Stream.

And of course, the Fighter escorts had to be spread out over the entire several hundred mile length of the Bomber stream.

What this meant is that actually there might only be one 18 plane Fighter Squadron covering a Bomber "Combat Box".

In many situations, the Squadrons were split in two, one half on either flank of the Combat Box.

There are many accounts of 8-9 USAAF Fighters attacking 100+ German Fighters.

That would be because the German Air Controllers organized and vectored their fighter assets so as to concentrate them against a single Combat Box. That way, the damage on the planes in that Box was cumulative from the different waves of attackers, and aircraft damaged in an earlier attack could be more easily shot down by a later wave of attackers.

German Fighters


Distribution of Authorized German Fighter Strength January 1944

Eastern Front: 425

Mediterranean: 365

Northwest Europe: 1650

These figures represent the number of Fighters on the books of the German Jagdgeschwader. However, not all the fighters on the books would be operational. Usually the Germans averaged an operational figure of approx. 60-75% of their authorized strength. That would give them a figure of approximately 1150 available aircraft in France and Germany in January.

You can see the Germans actually had more Fighter aircraft available to defend Germany than the USAAF had to escort its Bombers.

However, the fact was, the LuftFlieger Korps had to cover all of Germany and France, and therefore wasn't able to intercept with all its assets.

Typically, 300-500 German aircraft could be vectored in to attack a USAAF Bomber Mission. Very often, they would make one attack, then the survivors would land, refuel, and take off for a second attack on the Bombers as they returned to Britain.

The initial wave of attacks were normally in formations of approximately 100-150 aircraft, normally three to five Jagdgeschwader Gruppes were organized together, each Gruppe being approximately 24-36 aircraft.

As mentioned, they would focus on a single American Combat Box, making attacks until they ran out of ammunition before returning to base.

So you can see that very often the Germans would have a local superiority over the USAAF escort during their initial attack.

The second wave of attacks, after refueling would typically be less organized, since losses had occurred, and not all Fighters from a Gruppe would end up landing at the pre-designated refueling base. So you might see smaller groups of German Fighters. These would typically attack damaged American Bomber Stragglers at lower altitudes, those which had dropped behind their formations after the initial attacks. In these situations, they might encounter USAAF Fighter Groups which were returning to Britain after leaving their Bomber group. These Groups had orders to drop down to lower altitudes on their return flight, and watch for Germans landing at airfields, or attacking stragglers. In this kind of encounter, the Germans would likely find themselves outnumbered, unless the USAAF Group had been broken up by previous combat, and they were in smaller formations of aircraft.

Of course, Combat is a tremendously confusing and disorienting experience, so an individual in the middle of it will get impressions which are not nessesarily what occurred. Plus of course, anything and everything could happen.

But the facts are, the Germans were not outnumbered to the degree that Myth would have us believe.


Cheers RAF74 Buzzsaw



Message Edited on 07/17/0308:26PM by RAF74Buzzsaw_XO

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 08:22 PM
RAF74Buzzsaw_XO wrote:
- Salute
-
- Ah, the myth of a tiny few Germans versus the horde
- of USAAF.
-
- Go back and re-read the book and check your dates,
- and the combat. Then read some technical info
- regarding USAAF heavy bomber operations.


I think you should re-read my post.

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 08:25 PM
Dont forget covering bombers is much much different then a furball like the us seen fighting japan.


The escorts flew higher then the b17s b25 b24s but stayed in visual contact meaning the p47s and p51d lost all thier advantages being restricted to cover the bombers and still fought tough


109s and 190s @ 15,000 making dives on escorts and b17s at 10,000 getting hits/and kills then using thier energy to run for home is different then a swarm of fighters meeting another swarm of fights not covering bombers.

Still they did extremely well being out numbered so severly


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 08:41 PM
Salute

After you finish re-reading Knoke's book, then read "Thunderbolt" by Robert Johnson. He flew for the USAAF in the same time period as Knocke. You will then get the other perspective.

Here's a description of one combat from Johnson. He was flying as Squadron 2nd in command under the command of "Gabby" Gabreski, another well known USAAF Ace. Their Squadron, the 362nd, had been split into two 8 plane sections, Johnson on the left of the Bomber Combat box, Gabreski on the right. West of Hanover, over Dummer Lake, they encounter a large force of Germans, mixed 190's and 109's.

>>>>>>

"There were at least 50 plus in the lead bunch, and now came more than 50 fighters, flying top cover for the lead group, and yet another 50 covering their left flank. We were the only Squadron in the area, I had eight planes to to meet the German force of between 150 and 200 Fighters...

<<<<<<

Johnson maneuvers his Fighters for a headon, heading between the enemy Fighters and the Bomber Box he is covering:

>>>>>>

"... the next instant all hell broke loose. The heavens came alive with countless motes of light, searing bursts of fire, flames dancing and sparkling.... In sixty bombers, hundreds of gunners tracked our approach with their .50 calibre machine guns... The Germans too had fired. A mass of flames leaped forward from the wedge, an incredible fire storm... Sudden bursts of familiar dark and angry flames; the rockets shearing away from the Focke Wulfs... Each time a rocket hit-disaster... within a second the Big Friend and the ten men within had dissappeared, replaced by searing ball of fire..."

<<<<<

I could go on with the description, suffice it to say there was a tremendous battle. Reccommended reading, also "Wolfpack" by "Hub" Zemke, the commander of the 56th Fighter Group, a little more restrained description of the campaign.


Cheers Buzzsaw





Message Edited on 07/17/0308:27PM by RAF74Buzzsaw_XO

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 08:42 PM
double post

Message Edited on 07/17/0307:43PM by RAF74Buzzsaw_XO

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 08:46 PM
Gunther Rall said:"But the P-51 was truly the star fighter in Europe because of its long range and maneuverabililty".

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 08:58 PM
Why are you asking me to reread the book all the time? Doubting that i can read my own language? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"At the height of 8000 meters above lake Djummerzee we spoted the enemy. The picture before us, without exaggeration inspired reverential trembling. Near 1000 heavy bombers going to the east with powerful escort of fighters. Till now I never saw such a mighty air formation: they obviously went to Berlin. Together with fighters I have counted over 1200 American planes. We had only 40 planes, but even if it was only two of us, still, we had to enter that fight." Did i read it right? Translated from russian for you... unless english version of this books is different.

I think you got a wrong idea there buddy. I`m not trying to say that USAAF sucks or planes sucked. I`m just saying that everyone is freaking biased, either it`s russians, german or american.

You know, russian people say... Each frog thinks that its swamp is the best... That`s what i am saying. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub


Message Edited on 07/17/0308:59PM by crazyivan1970

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 09:07 PM
crazyivan,

Relax, man, we are not going after you ..... just commenting and expanding on the Knoke account which you posted.


BuzzRAF74 - nice post. BTW, the book RISE AND FALL OF THE LUFTWAFFE has some good statistics on the progressive appetite of homeland defence for single-engined fighters. Interesting to note how many Eastern Front fighters and bomber units were transferred or withdrawn in order to bolster German homeland air defence during 1944.



Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 09:19 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif BLUTARSKI...I am relaxed.. having a good day actually /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 09:32 PM
Salute Ivan

I am not saying you are lying.

I AM saying that Knoke is exaggerrating.

As I have explained, the USAAF formations were not so dense that you would encounter 1000 bombers at a time.

They were split up in the Combat Boxes as I explained.

Eyesight range for a group of bombers is perhaps 20 miles. And the various combat boxes were spread out over more than a hundred miles.

This is not myth, it is fact.

Knoke is using his imagination. And perhaps trying to exagerate the difficulty he and his fellow Luftfliegers faced.

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 09:39 PM
Ahhh mister, now were are getting somehwere /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . My point exactly...

S!

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 09:40 PM
Salute Ivan

If you have ever flown EUROPEAN AIR WAR, and you program the game so the number of aircraft in the air is at its densest, you will get an idea of how the scene looked.

In that game I have gotten up to 6 American Bomber Combat boxes in the air in a mission.

When you are a German, and you spot the lead Combat Box, you can see perhaps 3 of the six Combat boxes. The others are too far away. If you remain in the area where you first intercepted, then you will see the remaining boxes pass through.

Considering its age, EAW handled the reality of the Strat bombing campaign very well.

It would be nice if someday IL-2 or its successors could do the same numbers of aircraft. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Cheers Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 10:12 PM
Salute

Another interesting thing about Knoke's book is that unlike most German aircraft, which did not carry Guncams, Knoke at one point was asked to put a camera on his plane, to film an attack on heavy bombers.

This film was used in training for new Luftwaffe pilots.

If you go to this site:

http://mezek.valka.cz/texty/filmy.htm

And scroll down to the section with 109G6's attacking USAAF heavy bombers, it may be that you will be watching Knoke's footage. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Cheers RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 10:56 PM
Very interesting.

Nice explanation Buzzsaw, now i understand how pilots on both sides could feel they were out-numbered.



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"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 11:04 PM
carguy_ wrote:
- As far as numbers don`t exist LW was ruling the
- skies.

They outnumbered the British but failed to rule the skies over England during BoB.

<center> http://www.322squadron.com/images/322.gif </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 11:08 PM
Yeah,I know,I was talking about USAAF vs LW.

"degustibus non disputandum"

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<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 11:29 PM
Nearly all German pilots at the end of the war were newbies.
I can understand that a guy like Knoke knew how to take on a P-47 in a 109.
But US pilots were not particularly impressed by the tactics of most of their untrained opponents.
Many inexperienced 109 pilots tried to outdive the P-47s.
I'm sure they had been briefed prior to air combat as to correct air tactics but it's not easy to learn the art of dogfighting in such a disadvantageous situation.
Doras for example appear to have been excellent a/c, easily capable of taking on their opponents at least on equal terms but suffered in what was a very hostile and desparate enviroment for the Germans.
In any case, he survived to write a book so he's bound to have a more confident view of facts.
Some of Knoke's killed comrades would probably have a different view from his but you're not going to here from them.


<center>http://users.compulink.gr/ilusin@e-free.gr/bf109[2)1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 12:37 AM
Christos_swc wrote:
- Nearly all German pilots at the end of the war were
- newbies.
-

Many of the American pilots were too. If you read Fortier's book "An Ace of The Eighth" he mentions how many new pilots rotated into the squadrons to replace those who had completed their tours or to replace losses.

He even was tasked to take some time off from combat to train some new pilots in the tactics his squadron was using.

I think we all often forget that a good portion of the American pilots were relatively inexperienced in combat even if they had a lot of hours in basic flight training.

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 06:43 AM
This is true Zyzbot, many German pilots in the Eastern front were newbies too and everybody started fresh in the first place.
That's not the point.
There are two points here:
1)Being a newbie pilot was no problem if the enviroment allowed you to learn at your own pace.
They were thrown in at the deep end immediately at the time.
They didn't have the luxury of 'watch and learn' or ' stay out of trouble and out of my way ok?'
2)Recieving a complete basic training program as opposed to an emergency one can make a lot of difference I believe.
And in any case I'm not sure there was too much talent left in Germany at that time of war.
And they could not get very picky.

Hartman himself wasn't good for much when he first entered combat and it seems to have taken a lot of time and possibly luck to hone in his skills.
And he was allowed to develop at his own pace which was a luxury German pilots still had at the time he entered the war.

<center>http://users.compulink.gr/ilusin@e-free.gr/bf109[2)1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 11:39 AM
Galland writes that by 1944 the average flighing time for every new pilot was less one fourth of what was considered necessary to deam them ready for combat. They tried to compensate this by teaching the new guys the bare essentials. Even Chuck Yeager claimed that some of his victories were achieved against guys that couldn't even trim their airplanes correctly. This lack of training becomes most evident on January 1st, 1945 when the entire fighter reserve was wasted on operation base plate.
I think a 1944/45 German newcomer had less training than an 1944/45 allied newcomer

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 01:08 PM
how could chuck yeager tell if the newcomer had trimmed his plane correctly?

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2003, 02:41 PM
PsychoninIII wrote:
- how could chuck yeager tell if the newcomer had
- trimmed his plane correctly?
-
-

He said that the Me109 was "gearing", I don't know what gearing is, but he deduced that the pilot knew $hit about flying airplanes.

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:00 AM
There has been a lot of research about Heinz book. He flew over the west front. Normally the best pilots flew over the east front. Some flew some sorties in the gap between the allied offensives Cobra and Bagration (Soviet). For example Graf was shoot down over France.

Many kills was reported as missing for example the illfated squad of Mustangs.
Some kills was reported as kollisions, as the Liberator with the doll maskot.
Some kills was reported as wrong planes. The Mosquito was no Mosquito probobly a Lockhead Wentura
check http://www.chez.com/franckruffino/
Its can give you more about the subject.

As a conclusion; take care when you read about wars. Its the winner who writes it.

We who lives in the west have often neglected the fact that the war was won in the east by the soviets.

The germans was often superior in combat by exeperience and training but was wearn out by the overvelming number inferiority.
In almost all battles the germans lost fewer soldiers than their conterparts.
For example read Kursk 1943: A statistical Analyses.
Its an example of how the description of history can change.

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:15 AM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- Same applies to 190D which NEEDED cover of 109`s since it
- couldn`t hold it`s own against Mustangs and T-Bolts,
- due to superior odds.

Well my understanding was that the Bf109 was outclassed by the Fw190 in the bomber intercept role (lighter armament + MUCH more fragile), which is why they were relegated as escort to Fw190s, trying to gain enough time for the 190s to reach the bombers. The Jv44 used Fw190D9s to wipe out the fighters around the Me262 bases, and I'm quite sure they could have accessed Bf109s had they felt it was superior.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:18 AM
Just to throw in my 2 cents. I have always respected the 109, but nobody will convince me, after all the reading I have done, that it was a superior aircraft late in the war. Mainly this is due to pilot accounts on the LW side who spoke about how the 109 had such bad flight characteristics as it aged. Also, I have read several times from pilots and flight testers, that it was obvious in late models like the G-10 and K-4 that the engine/power had "outgrown the airframe." It had great performance but its handling was poor and difficult. Still, I have read numerous times about how great the "F" series was early on despite its short lived combat service. And I do believe at high altitudes the 109 was certainly capable, although not the best, until the end of the war. IMHO the 109 was never outclassed by more than a small margin, and that says alot for an aircraft.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Typhooncountry.jpg



Message Edited on 07/21/0308:24AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:39 AM
BTW, I have a question about the 1150 planes that the LW had sometime in 1944. Did this include night fighting squads?

Also one has to remember that LW had some totally lousy outclassed planes, like Me110s. I'd be curious to know what number of latest AC were available to the germans.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 10:05 AM
RAF74Buzzsaw_XO wrote:
- Salute
-
- Ah, the myth of a tiny few Germans versus the horde
- of USAAF.
-

Great post! Very informative, thanks.

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 12:15 PM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- Just finished "I flew for the Fuhrer" and must say
- that i`m rather confused. I don`t know who to
- believe anymore. It appears to me that "outdated" as
- some people call it ME109 was the king of high
- altitude combat. And all the statements that P-51D
- and T-Bolt were superior to it based on nothing.
- Before you jump into any conclusions and start
- flaming me....i didn`t write it. Heinz did. Same
- applies to 190D which NEEDED cover of 109`s since it
- couldn`t hold it`s own against Mustangs and T-Bolts,
- due to superior odds. Just a fact that he was
- leading group of 40 109`s against 1200 USAAF planes,
- almost 400 of which were fighter cover. So who`s
- lying? Why did he come back alive from that mess
- along with 80% of his crew and managed to take out 1
- B-17th and 2 TBolts? Was he a superman or
- something? Or maybe his crew was so good... 90% just
- outta flight school? Alot of things don`t make
- sence. Do you think if LW would meet 8th AF in equal
- odds american boys would make it back home?
-----------------------------------------

Ive read it many times !

In early days Knoke had difficulties scoring kills..

at the end he was one of the rare experten, and he had flown 109:s many years.(he knew it inside out)
Many of the p47 and p51 maby wasnt experts and in combat, especially furballs u cant watch ur 6 all the time, so if u survive its a combination of skill and luck ( many aces agree with this)(Thats why its possible to shoot down a yak3 whith a stuka in FB)

Yes Fw190:s were escorted because the were armorplated and heavy from all kinds of weapons such as rockets and cannonpods. this hampered manouverability and speed ( acceleration) they had to catch up with bombers and shot down as many as possible ( the extra armament) they could not aford to dogfight so therefore the escort.
Fw190 was chosen because of speed and could take many hits compared to 109:s

Many times the attacks were over after first pass and they would regroup and attack the bombers again later(often homebund and wounded bombers). the bombers were more important and escorting 109s tried to keep the fighters buissy fora while and then dive for cover. the allied had to stay with the bombers = so there was few or none dogfights to the last plane. Thats why some pilots survived (tactics)


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 01:00 PM
BLUTARSKI wrote:
- well suited to fight opposing fighters. That would
- have left about 300 or so escort fighters. Not
- exactly overwhelming ods .......

Much like the RAF in 1940, the LW aircraft were
committed in small groups compared to the total
number of aircraft on the TOE. (For example the
RAF in 1940, engaged in groups of one to three
squadrons at a time, a maximum of 36 aircraft,
and more typically a maximum of 12). The LW
effectively operated a form of 'Big Wing', though.




Message Edited on 07/21/0312:06PM by AaronGT

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 01:09 PM
Cappadocian_317 wrote:
-
- carguy_ wrote:
-- As far as numbers don`t exist LW was ruling the
-- skies.
-
- They outnumbered the British but failed to rule the
- skies over England during BoB.

Only locally. The RAF had more single engined fighters
in total. (They outnumbered the RAF if you total the
number of bombers plus fighters, though).

During the progress of a LW flight over England in 1940
it might well be attacked by more RAF aircraft than in
its formation, but in a piecemeal fashion.

During the course of BoB the RAF managed to field more
squadrons, whilst the number of serviceable 109s fell.

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 07:12 PM
PsychoninIII wrote:
- how could chuck yeager tell if the newcomer had
- trimmed his plane correctly?
-
-


If a plane is shifting its flight line not in line with its longitudinal axis it lacks steering input on its rudder.
I've seen FB videos and tracks where pilots don't give a s**t about their trimming especially on Bf109s as it like RL has no actual rudder trim tab.
In this case you'll see the 109 slightly side-sliding.
I guess Yeager would notice this when in perfect 6 position.
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 07:36 PM
Well, I posted this link before, but I guess you missed.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/LW_OBs.html


nicolas10 wrote:
- BTW, I have a question about the 1150 planes that
- the LW had sometime in 1944. Did this include night
- fighting squads?
-
- Also one has to remember that LW had some totally
- lousy outclassed planes, like Me110s. I'd be curious
- to know what number of latest AC were available to
- the germans.
-
-

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 07:57 PM
It all has to do with numbers...I was in a server last night where the teams where even, then a certain 109 flying LW squad came in as members of my team left all at once, stacking the odds in favor of their team 8 v.3 on a 12 slot server...I can handle 2 late-war 109s in the LA7 that I was flying, but not 4 to 5. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Most records I have read indicate that LW pilots still flying for the fuhrer in 1945 tried to attack pockets of allied flights, rather than engage the heart of the fight...

With the exception of a handful of aces, 109s didn't last very long against P-51s in even numbered encounters, it'll be interesting to see how lighter fuel loads boost Mustang performance in FB. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,

<CENTER>http://home1.gte.net/vze23gyt/files/p51_jaws.jpg</CENTER><CENTER><font size="+1"><div style="width:500;color:#FF2211;fontsize:11pt;filter:shado w Blur[color=red,strength=2)">73h /\/\u$7@/\/6 |*\/\//\/-/_ j00</div></center></font><FONT color="#59626B">[b]

Message Edited on 07/21/0302:59PM by TaZ_Attack

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 08:19 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Well, I posted this link before, but I guess you
- missed.

Yes I missed it, thanks it's very interesting.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


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