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View Full Version : Can MG17 (7.92mm) penetrate armored front cockpit glass?



alert_1
03-02-2007, 01:29 AM
..because I was killed from about 200m online last nigh by Me110 rear gunner. I'd never thought it was possible...

FritzGryphon
03-02-2007, 01:35 AM
Me-110 doesn't have MG17 tailgun. You're thinking MG15 or MG131.

You'd have to specify what plane you were flying. But no, neither the MG15 or MG131 are powerful weapons.

In all likelihood, a bullet hit you directly, without going through any armor.

alert_1
03-02-2007, 01:43 AM
Yaeh I know it's MG81Z actually but it's still 7.92 twin MG. I was flying La5FN (IIRC it has 40mm thick armored glass)

BBB_Hyperion
03-02-2007, 02:18 AM
You need to add your closing speed to the bullet speed. That increases kinetic energy drastically.

alert_1
03-02-2007, 03:18 AM
You need to add your closing speed to the bullet speed. That increases kinetic energy drastically.
Correct.But my closing relative speed was not too much (wasnt diving) and that eas reason I was hit (stupid tactict on my part, but still..) Only explanation coming to my mind that bullet wasnt going throu armored glass and bounced somehow thru canopy "plastic" cover..

FritzGryphon
03-02-2007, 03:28 AM
Probably. The LA-5FN armored windscreen doesn't seem to cover much. Even a few degrees from either side could hit the pilot.

ImpStarDuece
03-02-2007, 03:29 AM
Spitfire Mk Is with the external armoured glass survived direct MGFF 20mm cannon strikes from head ons with 109Es during the BoB. So, thats a 400-600 mph closing bonus to the penetrating power of a relatively low velocity, thin wall shell with a blunt head.

A hit by a 7.62 AP round MIGHT penetrate, given sufficient closing velocity and a favourable striking angle, but I doubt it. The KE just doesn't seem high enough, despite the better profile and higher sectional density.

Kurfurst__
03-02-2007, 03:54 AM
Tests with HE shells shouldnt tell you much, they are not designed to penetrate - the fuse would set off the shell instantly upon impact (esp. in the game engine) and blow up the projectile before it even has a chance to penetrate into the material. Thats what AP rounds are for - and no aircraft armor has any chance against 20mm, even from a relatively low velocity cannon like the Oerlikon MGFF.

As for the 7,92mm rounds go, AP has probably some chance to go through, as IIRC it would be good for around armored steel. The margin is pretty low though, IIRC the Russians reported that the 60mm armor glass on German planes would be penetrated at something like 100 meters. I wonder if theres a formula for how much armor glas worths how much thickness in steel. And I recall some Hurricane pilot reported an encounter with Do-17. The rear gunner hit him, and what he first saw is a hole appearing right in front of his face in the armored glass, somehow he turned lucky though, maybe it hit the gunsight.

So its possible, but the probability is rather low, more likely he got an angle shot where the rounds simply bypassed the rather small area the armor glass covers. It may also go under the armored glass frame.

Its worth to experient a bit with the "arcade mode" on setting, as I recall the PK shots Ive seen all "outmanouvered" the armor glass, while direct hits on the glass itself were ineffective in the sims DM engine.

Capt.LoneRanger
03-02-2007, 04:02 AM
An MkI spitfire? You're sure?

I googled and started a little recherche and read from some museum-site with a lot of statistics and historical information, that with the Spit XXI finally introduced a reinforced armored cockpit-front to withstand a 20mm hit.
According to that site, the only early allied plane with a windshield that strong was the IL2, which protected the pilot against 20mm several times.

Do you have a link for that information about the SpitI?

I also read the FW190 was one of the best armored fighter-planes, as they were used against B17s and they were said to be rather save against a pilot hit from the front. A FW190 pilot also stated so in a recent report I watched.

But well, the Panzerglas is obviously missing in this game, anyway - http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

KIMURA
03-02-2007, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
Spitfire Mk Is with the external armoured glass survived direct MGFF 20mm cannon strikes from head ons with 109Es during the BoB. So, thats a 400-600 mph closing bonus to the penetrating power of a relatively low velocity, thin wall shell with a blunt head from straight ahead.


Are U sure on that? I got a pic of a Spitfire I windshield hit by a rifly calibre round from a LW-bomber. The windshield frame don't give the impresion to absorb any harder hits than that- it was bended that much. IIRC the 1944 standard on armored windshield on either LW and RAF was the ability to absorb maximum a 13.0mm rounds.

Tipo_Man
03-02-2007, 04:32 AM
Actually armour glass was meant to protect against rifle calibre shells, but protected relatively small area.
There is still a chance to get killed behind it.
I remember the memories of a soviet ace (with three tarans !!!). He engaged a "Junkers" (not specifying the model) and a bullet hit him in his right eye, exiting from the back of his skull!.
In fact he did not lose consciuos immideately, and managed somehow to maneuver and ram the enemy! The next thing he remembers was him falling down, outside of his plane, he opened his chute and landed alive...He returned to active duty after some time and scored more kills, with one eye.

joeap
03-02-2007, 04:37 AM
Tipo_Man
You got a link or something? Incredible story! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Especially going on to fight with one eye...and no depth perception.

Tipo_Man
03-02-2007, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by joeap:
Tipo_Man
You got a link or something? Incredible story! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Especially going on to fight with one eye...and no depth perception.

The name of the pilot is Boris Kovzan.
(Борис Ковзан) in Russian. Unfortunately couldn't find the whole story in english.

In fact if I'm not wrong, I think that the British first scoring ace in WWI was almost blind with one of his eyes.

http://www.wwiaviation.com/aces/ace_Edward_Mannock.html

FliegerAas
03-02-2007, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by Tipo_Man:
Actually armour glass was meant to protect against rifle calibre shells, but protected relatively small area.
There is still a chance to get killed behind it.
I remember the memories of a soviet ace (with three tarans !!!). He engaged a "Junkers" (not specifying the model) and a bullet hit him in his right eye, exiting from the back of his skull!.
In fact he did not lose consciuos immideately, and managed somehow to maneuver and ram the enemy! The next thing he remembers was him falling down, outside of his plane, he opened his chute and landed alive...He returned to active duty after some time and scored more kills, with one eye.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif holy sh.. . Thinking of it is enough to give me the creeps...

JtD
03-02-2007, 09:54 AM
I'd say it depends on the angle, but it is unlikely that 1 hit from 200m away gets through. Same as getting pilot killed in the FW by a 0.50 through the windscreen.

I sometimes have my doubts about armored windscreens.

WB_Outlaw
03-02-2007, 10:50 AM
Saburo Sakai lost an eye to an Avenger gunner. He flew several hours back to base, paralyzed on his left side, drifting in and out of conciousness, with a rag stuffed in the hole in his head. At one point he let a fuel tank run dry which killed the engine. The zero used an acceleration pump linked to the throttle in place of a primer so he had to reach over with his right hand to pump the throttle and then quickly perform the rest of the startup procedure, all with one hand.

He also returned to duty when they ran very short on pilots.

--Outlaw.