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Insuber
12-23-2009, 08:07 AM
Hi,

I need your wisdom and experience. I would like to have your suggestions about the transition from open cockpit to full real servers. How to do it without too much stress ?

Thanks for your help,
Insuber

JG52Uther
12-23-2009, 08:11 AM
I would say cockpit on,but externals on as well,maybe padlock?
Personall I never flew cockpit off,so have no idea what it is like,I went from external on to full switch quick.

thefruitbat
12-23-2009, 08:28 AM
buy track ir.

Not the cheapest option, but boy will it change the game for you.

TheCrux
12-23-2009, 08:29 AM
It doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" move right away.

Gradually wean yourself away from "wonder woman".

Cockpit only, with full flight dynamics. Then remove icons and minimap paths over time.

Insuber
12-23-2009, 08:40 AM
Thx for the replies. I own a TrackIR 2, and I plan to use it.

As a matter of fact I am a sort of control guy, and loosing sight of the enemy makes me very nervous and raises the stress... :-)

Moreover, I enjoy high deflection shots that are impossible or very difficult with cockpit on.

Any ideas ?

Thx,
Insuber

K_Freddie
12-23-2009, 08:48 AM
This will change.. give it 6 months. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JtD
12-23-2009, 08:54 AM
Learn patience. Get used to flying around for 20 minutes without seeing any action. Or give up the control.

megalopsuche
12-23-2009, 08:56 AM
Don't kid yourself. "Full real" is anything but. A trainee has more SA in a real aircraft than a simulation vet flying full switch.

As for deflection shots with the cockpit on, it would have been better if you never played with the wonder-woman view. It doesn't just allow you to see through the aircraft; it changes the nature of ACM in how you maneuver for a guns solution.

BillSwagger
12-23-2009, 09:11 AM
You might fly some campaigns or use QMB to practice in closed pit views. I found that to be an easy transition because the flying aspect is pretty much the same, except there's a challenge to using more SA. You also have to fly tactically so you can see to your six better, and when hunting a plane i cheat to one side so that i can see over the nose better until he's in range.

My big issue was weening off the padlock which really entailed getting used to panning with my mouse. I spent sometime offline doing just that, and when i revisited the game online I found the full switch servers much more fun than my previous attempts at it. Thats just a matter of learning to do with out, and its actually a better way to play, imo.

I think having icons off I eventually just learned to recognize the different LODs of planes at different ranges. Having icons on, i was never really forced to learn these subtle differences but again, its worth knowing so that even when icons are on you might identify a plane before the icons appear.

Now i'm trying to see if i can do with out the widest field of view, or at least get good at flying in close combat situations using 70 degrees. I'm not sure of the reasoning behind it, but i know that its easier to aim through the site, and i usually get better frames that way, but most of all it just seems like the more natural FoV in proportion to the plane. Even if i don't completely stop using the widest field of view, i think it could only improve my game getting use to playing at a shorter FoV. If that were a difficulty setting then it would really add another level to the game.

Bill

Erkki_M
12-23-2009, 09:33 AM
Full Switch is the only way to go. And everyone saying they cant see or find anyone else.. well, buy thicker glasses and read the ### briefing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Though adjusting monitor and graphics card settings might help as well. Especially setting the game resolution the screen's native resolution.

I wont even start counting all the details making Open Pit ****ty crap, but the thing with the external views is not looking at others fight or looking at the fancy damage in your plane etc, but player's situational awareness. Its plain impossible to "sneak" and surprise anyone, attack targets or climb to a safe altitude because everyone in the game knows where you are and what doing. Icons, when they're limited, are less important: at best they stop people accidently shooting friendly aircraft and tell you who you just winged up with(if you cant see the number), but at their worst they spoil your bounce or get that angry guy trying to revenge to you chase you several times around the map, disregarding his own safety.

And no, you dont need a throttle or even TIR to play FR... I dont either...

Playing online as =PT=Erkki.

Choctaw111
12-23-2009, 09:34 AM
Do a lot of practice in the Quick Mission Builder and gradually make it more difficult.
The QMB is a great way to familiarize yourself with Il2.

rnzoli
12-23-2009, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Insuber:
high deflection shots that are impossible or very difficult with cockpit on.

Not impossible, but surely not easy either. High deflection shots need to be closer, but when you get the hang of estimating the flight path of your target across the window frames, you can do amazing "blind" shots.

Xiolablu3
12-23-2009, 11:44 AM
More 'guesswork' when deflection shooting with cockpit on, but you can get very good at the 'guessing'.

I started with WW view on 334th server. Naturally moved onto pit-on plus externals and some no external servers. Its really not that hard.

Cant play WW view anymore, takes away much of the immersion for me..

JtD
12-23-2009, 11:46 AM
Its plain impossible to "sneak" and surprise anyone, attack targets or climb to a safe altitude

That's not true, if you wish I can provide dozens of tracks to prove it.

Swivet
12-23-2009, 11:56 AM
As much as "full real" and "immersion" is great, i like to keep some aspect of the "game" fun...external padlock and flyby view is fun to me..And what may be fun to me,will be arcade to others. Yeh i could fly with closed pits, but i kind of like seeing what's goin on around me. It's a personal preference. I like a balance of fun and realism. When i first joined my squad we were more apt. to using map waypoints, extended icons etc. Now we have reduced all that and basically use our compass. The only thing i see that is still in place is external views and padlock..Which seems to be ok for our squad. Of course i do all my killing in cockpit view, but when targets are what i think closeby, then ext. padlock helps. If i want complete realism, i'll buy a real plane. These oldtimers back in the day never stood a chance if the enemey was on his high-6 and then B-n-Z'd him without him knowing.

dahoyle
12-23-2009, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Its plain impossible to "sneak" and surprise anyone, attack targets or climb to a safe altitude

That's not true, if you wish I can provide dozens of tracks to prove it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it's real D@MNED hard to do with someone who doesn't have their head burried completely up their third point of contact. It is quite simply outside your control, wether or not someone picks you up in the sky by "cheating". You may have dozens of tracks which show you got away with it, but out of how many hundreds of missions?

megalopsuche
12-23-2009, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by dahoyle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Its plain impossible to "sneak" and surprise anyone, attack targets or climb to a safe altitude

That's not true, if you wish I can provide dozens of tracks to prove it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it's real D@MNED hard to do with someone who doesn't have their head burried completely up their third point of contact. It is quite simply outside your control, wether or not someone picks you up in the sky by "cheating". You may have dozens of tracks which show you got away with it, but out of how many hundreds of missions? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are we talking about externals or icons? It is indeed possible to bounce or surprise a target on a server with externals, or icons, or both. The difference is in how much other stuff has to be happening for the target's SA to be worn down. Without icons, a pilot might be actively searching the sky but still fail to see the pixel on his monitor before it shoots him down.

Regardless, I find it more fun when my target sees me coming. Shooting down someone who never reacts or never has a chance to fight back is boring.

R_Target
12-23-2009, 12:30 PM
People are free to do whatever they please, but for me, it isn't IL2 without the canopy framing, gunsight, and gauges in front of me.

dahoyle
12-23-2009, 12:41 PM
Are we talking about externals or icons?

Thought we were talking about cockpit off (Wonder woman). If you can't see someone sneaking up on you when you have a cute little red or blue arrow indicating which way they are coming from, then you should probably not play. Obviously, there are distractions, but if you are trying to sneak away to gain altitude, anyone looking should be able to pick up on it, and if you are able to sneak up on someone, they deserve to get shot down.

Personally, I prefer icons, cockpit on, and external views. I don't use the external to look around, but it is nice to be able to see the damage, that in real life, a wing man would point out to you. Sucks landing on one leg, without knowing it, when in reallity, someone would let you know. Same about missing rudder or elevator. knowing specifically what is wrong, is much better than knowing "something" is wrong. Icons just allow you to id what you would be able to see in real life. Just my take on a controversial subject. In the end, the furball arcade type servers just aren't my thing. Would much rather do a patrol type mission, and let the advantage go to whoever is most alert, or lucky.

Blindman-
12-23-2009, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Full Switch is the only way to go. And everyone saying they cant see or find anyone else.. well, buy thicker glasses and read the ### briefing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Though adjusting monitor and graphics card settings might help as well. Especially setting the game resolution the screen's native resolution.

I wont even start counting all the details making Open Pit ****ty crap, but the thing with the external views is not looking at others fight or looking at the fancy damage in your plane etc, but player's situational awareness. Its plain impossible to "sneak" and surprise anyone, attack targets or climb to a safe altitude because everyone in the game knows where you are and what doing. Icons, when they're limited, are less important: at best they stop people accidently shooting friendly aircraft and tell you who you just winged up with(if you cant see the number), but at their worst they spoil your bounce or get that angry guy trying to revenge to you chase you several times around the map, disregarding his own safety.

And no, you dont need a throttle or even TIR to play FR... I dont either...

Playing online as =PT=Erkki.

-1


Originally posted by Swivet:
As much as "full real" and "immersion" is great, i like to keep some aspect of the "game" fun...external padlock and flyby view is fun to me..And what may be fun to me,will be arcade to others. Yeh i could fly with closed pits, but i kind of like seeing what's goin on around me. It's a personal preference. I like a balance of fun and realism. When i first joined my squad we were more apt. to using map waypoints, extended icons etc. Now we have reduced all that and basically use our compass. The only thing i see that is still in place is external views and padlock..Which seems to be ok for our squad. If i want complete realism, i'll buy a real plane.

+1


However, once we all can afford monitors with 360 degrees of view in both X and Y axis (I'm talking about periferal vision, not the ability to turn your head as in TIR) with true to life "6 degrees of freedom" I might change my mind. I think I also might need another pair of eyes since the idea is to simulate real pilots, who all had very good vision.

Chivas
12-23-2009, 12:59 PM
I flew without cockpits in previous sims 10 years ago, but when I first started beta testing IL-2 the cockpits were just too immersive not to use them. Now I can't go back as I'm totally disorientated without the cockpit reference. If you're a good deflection shooter in WW view you understand where your target is going to be, so it won't take you long to adjust.

JtD
12-23-2009, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by dahoyle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Its plain impossible to "sneak" and surprise anyone, attack targets or climb to a safe altitude

That's not true, if you wish I can provide dozens of tracks to prove it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it's real D@MNED hard to do with someone who doesn't have their head burried completely up their third point of contact. It is quite simply outside your control, wether or not someone picks you up in the sky by "cheating". You may have dozens of tracks which show you got away with it, but out of how many hundreds of missions? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It takes one track to disprove "impossible". I've got dozens, for each. Bouncing someone is certainly hardest of all three.

megalopsuche
12-23-2009, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by dahoyle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

Are we talking about externals or icons?

Thought we were talking about cockpit off (Wonder woman). If you can't see someone sneaking up on you when you have a cute little red or blue arrow indicating which way they are coming from, then you should probably not play. Obviously, there are distractions, but if you are trying to sneak away to gain altitude, anyone looking should be able to pick up on it, and if you are able to sneak up on someone, they deserve to get shot down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I had to ask because the quoted line was about externals, and not the WW view.

Erkki_M
12-23-2009, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Blindman-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Full Switch is the only way to go. And everyone saying they cant see or find anyone else.. well, buy thicker glasses and read the ### briefing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Though adjusting monitor and graphics card settings might help as well. Especially setting the game resolution the screen's native resolution.

I wont even start counting all the details making Open Pit ****ty crap, but the thing with the external views is not looking at others fight or looking at the fancy damage in your plane etc, but player's situational awareness. Its plain impossible to "sneak" and surprise anyone, attack targets or climb to a safe altitude because everyone in the game knows where you are and what doing. Icons, when they're limited, are less important: at best they stop people accidently shooting friendly aircraft and tell you who you just winged up with(if you cant see the number), but at their worst they spoil your bounce or get that angry guy trying to revenge to you chase you several times around the map, disregarding his own safety.

And no, you dont need a throttle or even TIR to play FR... I dont either...

Playing online as =PT=Erkki.

-1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, of course.

I should have added that I do not own a throttle or TIR myself and I have a crappy comp and eyesight myself.

Its all, really, about getting used to. Air Combat was not exactly easy in real life either, so I see no reason it to be easy in a game either.

I like the full switch not only because of the reasons I mentioned, but the immersion and challenge. Yeah, one might argue that its "easier to survive in FR" - which it sure is, but it is also waaaay more challenging to down anyone. Yeah, there are easy kills, but there are also very hard kills and quick deaths. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If you consider having a good situational awareness "too hard", think of all the things the real pilots had to fight against: the belts, all their clothing, goggles, often extremely cold temperatures, the drunkening smell of oil and gasoline, tiredness(soldiers dont sleep, and one might have already flown multiple sorties that day), blinding sun and reflections, G-forces etc. How many here can see a single engined plane 10km away? We all can in il2. Think about that...

For practice and "just having fun" purposes I understand the arcade gaming. Some people simply dont have the time to play, let alone learn something as complex and demanding as Il2 can be. But call Skies of Fire\Valor "air combat simulation" with historical scenarios... lol... But if thats what people want, let 'em have it. After all, there can never bee too many simmers. Perhaps 10 years ago, but not anymore. Some of the arcade jocks might always leap to the real thing... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif


However, once we all can afford monitors with 360 degrees of view in both X and Y axis (I'm talking about periferal vision, not the ability to turn your head as in TIR) with true to life "6 degrees of freedom" I might change my mind. I think I also might need another pair of eyes since the idea is to simulate real pilots, who all had very good vision.

HayateAce
12-23-2009, 01:54 PM
Insuber,

You'll do just fine. In fact, if you were decent at all in WonderWoman mode, I don't see any problem in the transition. With cockpit on, you yourself will be harder for others to hit, and a good deflection shooter has to imagine that his aircraft is invisible to guesstimate what his enemy is up to.

http://img.engadget.com/common/images/4575937614869136.JPG?0.8624495567024028

megalopsuche
12-23-2009, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Erkki_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blindman-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
Full Switch is the only way to go. And everyone saying they cant see or find anyone else.. well, buy thicker glasses and read the ### briefing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Though adjusting monitor and graphics card settings might help as well. Especially setting the game resolution the screen's native resolution.

I wont even start counting all the details making Open Pit ****ty crap, but the thing with the external views is not looking at others fight or looking at the fancy damage in your plane etc, but player's situational awareness. Its plain impossible to "sneak" and surprise anyone, attack targets or climb to a safe altitude because everyone in the game knows where you are and what doing. Icons, when they're limited, are less important: at best they stop people accidently shooting friendly aircraft and tell you who you just winged up with(if you cant see the number), but at their worst they spoil your bounce or get that angry guy trying to revenge to you chase you several times around the map, disregarding his own safety.

And no, you dont need a throttle or even TIR to play FR... I dont either...

Playing online as =PT=Erkki.

-1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, of course.

I should have added that I do not own a throttle or TIR myself and I have a crappy comp and eyesight myself.

Its all, really, about getting used to. Air Combat was not exactly easy in real life either, so I see no reason it to be easy in a game either.

I like the full switch not only because of the reasons I mentioned, but the immersion and challenge. Yeah, one might argue that its "easier to survive in FR" - which it sure is, but it is also waaaay more challenging to down anyone. Yeah, there are easy kills, but there are also very hard kills and quick deaths. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If you consider having a good situational awareness "too hard", think of all the things the real pilots had to fight against: the belts, all their clothing, goggles, often extremely cold temperatures, the drunkening smell of oil and gasoline, tiredness(soldiers dont sleep, and one might have already flown multiple sorties that day), blinding sun and reflections, G-forces etc. How many here can see a single engined plane 10km away? We all can in il2. Think about that...

For practice and "just having fun" purposes I understand the arcade gaming. Some people simply dont have the time to play, let alone learn something as complex and demanding as Il2 can be. But call Skies of Fire\Valor "air combat simulation" with historical scenarios... lol... But if thats what people want, let 'em have it. After all, there can never bee too many simmers. Perhaps 10 years ago, but not anymore. Some of the arcade jocks might always leap to the real thing... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif


However, once we all can afford monitors with 360 degrees of view in both X and Y axis (I'm talking about periferal vision, not the ability to turn your head as in TIR) with true to life "6 degrees of freedom" I might change my mind. I think I also might need another pair of eyes since the idea is to simulate real pilots, who all had very good vision. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're making a mistake when you group SoF and SoV into one basket. One has WW view, the other does not.

Moreover, your insistence that full-switch is the "real thing" is cute. Yet you are still a guy sitting behind a computer screen, playing with a joystick...

Erkki_M
12-23-2009, 02:19 PM
SoF and SoV are in a one basket to me.

And to the latter... ...guess you didnt get it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Everyone playing a sim as an arcade shooter, why dont you just switch game? There must be at least a dozen games giving you what you want that have much better graphics, sounds etc. things IL2 is usually found lacking in. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

dahoyle
12-23-2009, 02:25 PM
It boils down to nothing but preference. I can certainly understand the need for WW, in some of the servers, or you will never get to altitude. Nothing about the dogfight servers even comes close to imitating reality. No particular reason for cockpit on/off to be any more than a personal choice, when so little of the rest of the experience is anywhere close to reality.



I prefer not to fly in those furballs, but it is by far the most prevalent type of mission server, so sometimes I participate. If there were unlimited choices, I would be flying CAP missions, where you wouldn't know where, or even if, you were going to engage the enemy, or bomber escort, or ground attack, with a possibility of running into an enemy CAP. Those are the details which allow me to immerse. Without them, it is just a sophisticated arcade, so it is foolish to pretend there is any semblance of reality.

If anyone can point me to those types of missions, I'd be obliged.

megalopsuche
12-23-2009, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Erkki_M:
SoF and SoV are in a one basket to me.

And to the latter... ...guess you didnt get it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Everyone playing a sim as an arcade shooter, why dont you just switch game? There must be at least a dozen games giving you what you want that have much better graphics, sounds etc. things IL2 is usually found lacking in. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

No, clearly you're the one who doesn't get it. Your point about being able to see a plane 10km away is telling. It's not about 10km, it's about being able to see a plane that's 1km away without squinting. I've been up a few times in small, low wing aircraft (did some basic aerobatics with a friend who does the pilot thing), and it's amazing how much more you can see than if you dumped $3k on a gaming computer to play full-switch.

I have an idea. Since some of us love simulated air combat and the flight modeling of Il-2, but don't like to put up with the conceited tartuffery of full-switchers who play the "real-thing," how about you poke one of your eyes out and then go flying? It would be a good simulation of what you see in full-switch Il-2, and loads more exciting than flying around for half an hour without seeing a contact.

M_Gunz
12-23-2009, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Insuber:
Hi,

I need your wisdom and experience. I would like to have your suggestions about the transition from open cockpit to full real servers. How to do it without too much stress ?

Thanks for your help,
Insuber

I'm so amazed! All this time I somehow took you for full switch. That just shows how wrong impressions can be.
As stated before, try cockpit on with external view enabled for a while. Though yes there will be more stress
in finding others the presence of the cockpit does give you better orientation of your plane to outside where WW
view is a real pain at least for me, never could stand cockpit off. Even with external view I know how my wings
and nose point better.
You will be more blind without externals and you will get shot down more often. Getting over _that_ will reduce
stress more effectively than all the switches IL2 has. Online you must expect harder fights just because you will
find better opponents as you move from WW servers to cockpit-on with and then without externals (in time). Think
of the better opponents as better teachers.

Big Secret: it is a game that you don't have to win to have fun. You should get better for next time either way.

Salute and good luck in your future play.

Erkki_M
12-23-2009, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Erkki_M:
SoF and SoV are in a one basket to me.

And to the latter... ...guess you didnt get it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Everyone playing a sim as an arcade shooter, why dont you just switch game? There must be at least a dozen games giving you what you want that have much better graphics, sounds etc. things IL2 is usually found lacking in. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

No, clearly you're the one who doesn't get it. Your point about being able to see a plane 10km away is telling. It's not about 10km, it's about being able to see a plane that's 1km away without squinting. I've been up a few times in small, low wing aircraft (did some basic aerobatics with a friend who does the pilot thing), and it's amazing how much more you can see than if you dumped $3k on a gaming computer to play full-switch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pentium IV 2.8GHz dual, nVidia 7600 GT, 1500mb of RAM (333MHz), 22" wide CRT screen, logitech keyboard and mouse, CH Combatstick 568 and CH Pro pedals.

About 500$ today, controllers taking major part of it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

If you problems NOT seeing contacts 10km out I recommend going through the conf.ini and graphics card's settings, or contact an eye clinic...


I have an idea. Since some of us love simulated air combat and the flight modeling of Il-2, but don't like to put up with the conceited tartuffery of full-switchers who play the "real-thing," how about you poke one of your eyes out and then go flying? It would be a good simulation of what you see in full-switch Il-2, and loads more exciting than flying around for half an hour without seeing a contact.

Having _perfect_ SA is not simulating air war. And FYI, stereo eyesight only helps you estimating very close distances, absolute max 20-30m or so. Beyond that you, even in real life, estimate distance by the size of different objects. If you meant not seeing past canopy frames, get the 6DOF mod or use 3d glasses(one could argue the same about every game).

And hey, "just flying around doing nothing" is what happened in real life, and is part of full switch flying as well. THAT is the thrill of a hunt. It also adds another factor to consider: whos alert, whos not. Theres always a chance of a bogie to appear from the horizon or behind a cloud, or before unnoticed below you, any second. Also in most FR/FS servers in HL you must be blind to not fnd an enemy in 10 minutes... There are exceptions as well, though.

And no, you still didnt get the joke I had in the original message. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Insuber
12-23-2009, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Insuber:
Hi,

I need your wisdom and experience. I would like to have your suggestions about the transition from open cockpit to full real servers. How to do it without too much stress ?

Thanks for your help,
Insuber

I'm so amazed! All this time I somehow took you for full switch. That just shows how wrong impressions can be.
As stated before, try cockpit on with external view enabled for a while. Though yes there will be more stress
in finding others the presence of the cockpit does give you better orientation of your plane to outside where WW
view is a real pain at least for me, never could stand cockpit off. Even with external view I know how my wings
and nose point better.
You will be more blind without externals and you will get shot down more often. Getting over _that_ will reduce
stress more effectively than all the switches IL2 has. Online you must expect harder fights just because you will
find better opponents as you move from WW servers to cockpit-on with and then without externals (in time). Think
of the better opponents as better teachers.

Big Secret: it is a game that you don't have to win to have fun. You should get better for next time either way.

Salute and good luck in your future play. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Gunz,

Considering your deception I owe you an explanation ... :-)
I flew FR in the beginning, many years ago ... from july 2001 ... hence the TrIR 2 bought around 2003 ... then work spoiled my free time, and after a long stop I decided to restart the easy way, with WW servers ... and got addicted (bleah !). Help me ! BTW, strange enough, I'm starting with RoF and enjoy Full Real, and make good use of my old TIR. Who knows why ???

Anyway thank you all for the good advice.

Bye,
Insuber

M_Gunz
12-23-2009, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
I have a crappy comp and eyesight myself.

Know the feeling, always behind the hardware curve and born with eye defects myself. The IL2 dots are easier to see
than the farther LODs but worst of all for me was the disappearing LODs my old graphics cards would give right at
beginning of engagement range. I use limited icons at least to 500m range and no externals.

LOL, instead of poking an eye out how about wear _deep_ goggles and paint one side over?
Also don't pull the stick with your hand but rather pull bungee cords attached to the stick, closer to the sim?
And even then flying IRL like that you would be closer to real than behind a screen, keyboard and all the hardware
less than a few million $ can buy.

"Full Real" is an oxymoron.

M_Gunz
12-23-2009, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Insuber:
Gunz,

Considering your deception I owe you an explanation ... :-)
I flew FR in the beginning, many years ago ... from july 2001 ... hence the TrIR 2 bought around 2003 ... then work spoiled my free time, and after a long stop I decided to restart the easy way, with WW servers ... and got addicted (bleah !). Help me ! BTW, strange enough, I'm starting with RoF and enjoy Full Real, and make good use of my old TIR. Who knows why ???

Anyway thank you all for the good advice.

Bye,
Insuber

Ahhh, the picture unfolds, my impression was not so wrong. Don't wish too hard for free time, it may come with a
very high price tag!

I see no deception from you and hey things change for all of us, I know from hard experience. OTOH people who
have not seen the changes often seem to think that what they see is how it was always and now I am guilty of that!
Thank you for correcting my view!

You could try going through the Joint-Ops course and I highly recommend finding a good squad simply because having
wingmates on comms will give you better parity against the times when that is what you are up against. A lone wolf
on a server may not even know when he's getting teamed up against!

I can't run RoF on my PC. Maybe by the time I can the patching will be done. How is the view system, the models
of planes at distance more than 200-300m?

megalopsuche
12-23-2009, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by megalopsuche:
I have a crappy comp and eyesight myself.

Know the feeling, always behind the hardware curve and born with eye defects myself. The IL2 dots are easier to see
than the farther LODs but worst of all for me was the disappearing LODs my old graphics cards would give right at
beginning of engagement range. I use limited icons at least to 500m range and no externals.

LOL, instead of poking an eye out how about wear _deep_ goggles and paint one side over?
Also don't pull the stick with your hand but rather pull bungee cords attached to the stick, closer to the sim?
And even then flying IRL like that you would be closer to real than behind a screen, keyboard and all the hardware
less than a few million $ can buy.

"Full Real" is an oxymoron. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, but I never typed that. Who did? Got jumbled in with all the quotes I guess. Nonetheless, I am quite near-sighted, which you think would help for computer sims when I take my glasses off... My computer is so-so. I run 1280x1024 with a good framerate, but hell if I can spot a couple pixels below the horizon without some kind of visual help.

"Full Real" is a ridiculous phrase. Any combat pilot would laugh at such a thing applied to a computer sim, and the pretensions it gives off are a mockery of the historical reality.

Insuber
12-23-2009, 03:38 PM
Gunz,

Wisdom words ... and I'm sincerely sorry for you mate if you have difficult times. Regarding RoF, frankly I can't tell about long distance appearance of planes, because I'm still too busy staying airborne http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif ... and I barely have the time for ONE flight simulator, so I need to choose, and my choice often goes to old dear Sturmovik ... at least as long as RoF misses a decent multiplayer mode.


Bye,
Insuber

BillSwagger
12-23-2009, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
More 'guesswork' when deflection shooting with cockpit on, but you can get very good at the 'guessing'.


This is true. I use 6dof to set my line of site just off the nose so the center of the site is toward the top of the reticule glass. This is more helpful on some planes than others particularly where the line of site sits on the nose, in some cases so low the site includes a portion of the nose itself. It took some getting use to, and now playing on open pit servers its seemingly easier to hit targets at extreme angles that i wouldn't normally attempt in closed pit views.

I actually don't think one mode is better than the other just that they offer different ways to play the same game. I generally favor different servers for the quality of players, which usually it seems the closed pit crowd is more respectful in that regard, but i still enjoy open pit servers because the game is faster paced as it should be.


Bill

M_Gunz
12-23-2009, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
Hehe, but I never typed that. Who did? Got jumbled in with all the quotes I guess.

Whoops! You're right! That was Erkki, I apologize to both of you!

jermin122
12-23-2009, 06:56 PM
IL2 is not supposed to be an arcade game. I am really upset to see nowadays HL is dominated by arcade servers. Where are the old guys playing around 2006 and 2007? There were hardly any arcade servers at that time.

jamesblonde1979
12-23-2009, 07:25 PM
A lot of people buy this game and jump online expecting to be able to blaze away at something and watch it explode. Quite often their curiosity leads them into a closed pit server and I see this as a great opportunity to cultivate and interest in the game as well as an understanding of the sheer difficultiy faced by the people who flew these aircraft for real.

Whilst I have no personal interest in 'wonder woman' style servers I hope it continues to produce the occasional graduate to closed pit and keeps the servers populated. Anybody wanting to explore the harder settings should be aware that there is a greater skill requirement and that there is a lot of people like myself who are more than keen to help you make the transition.

As Saburo Sakai said, "It's not how many aircraft I shoot down that is important but how many aces I create."

So, to anybody wanting to try closed pit, get on Teamspeak and don't be shy to ask a lot of questions or request some training in a one-on-one channel. If you are able to listen and keen to learn we have all the time in the world to help you.

Daiichidoku
12-23-2009, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by jermin122:
IL2 is not supposed to be an arcade game. I am really upset to see nowadays HL is dominated by arcade servers. Where are the old guys playing around 2006 and 2007? There were hardly any arcade servers at that time.

in a drunken stupor Oleg programmed external views, no cockpit view, arrows and ability to turn off stalls, overheats, realistic gunnery, vulnerability, etc etc etc?

"old guys 2006-07" LMAO

"hardly any arcade servers [then]" LMAO

are you also upset that there are more ppl who fly offline than online?


fascist.

AndyJWest
12-23-2009, 11:20 PM
fascist.

I should have go to bed hours ago, and if I wasn't in 'a drunken stupor' myself, or at least not entirely sober, I'd probably let this pass, but I'd put this down to 'having an opinion' rather than fascism. I'd hardly equate it with attempting to force an ideology on everyone.

Insuber
12-24-2009, 02:46 AM
Thank you James Blonde, I appreciate your offer. Which servers are you flying in, if I may ask _

Regards,
Insuber




Originally posted by jamesblonde1979:
A lot of people buy this game and jump online expecting to be able to blaze away at something and watch it explode. Quite often their curiosity leads them into a closed pit server and I see this as a great opportunity to cultivate and interest in the game as well as an understanding of the sheer difficultiy faced by the people who flew these aircraft for real.

Whilst I have no personal interest in 'wonder woman' style servers I hope it continues to produce the occasional graduate to closed pit and keeps the servers populated. Anybody wanting to explore the harder settings should be aware that there is a greater skill requirement and that there is a lot of people like myself who are more than keen to help you make the transition.

As Saburo Sakai said, "It's not how many aircraft I shoot down that is important but how many aces I create."

So, to anybody wanting to try closed pit, get on Teamspeak and don't be shy to ask a lot of questions or request some training in a one-on-one channel. If you are able to listen and keen to learn we have all the time in the world to help you.

Feathered_IV
12-24-2009, 03:54 AM
It's tricky. Those who learn the craft of closed-pit or FR flying realise how much a deeper, more immersive experience it is and want to impress this upon those who have not discovered it yet.
Those who do not fly FR tend to become upset and defensive, feeling that the FR people are being elitist or patronising towards the arcade elements of their preffered settings.

stiboo2
12-24-2009, 04:21 AM
I only fly using the HUD view, don't know why, every other sim i've played in the last 20 years i've used the cockpit view, if and when I get Track IR I will try the cockpit view.

Maybe it's because I spend most of my time building missions not flying? All those beautiful cockpits I look at for 2 seconds before switching them off, DOH !

Thankyou Oleg for giving us the choice to fly how WE want to.

I will give cockpits a go in SoW:BoB when it's released in about 20 X 2 weeks time !!!!!

Merry Christmas to everyone.

JtD
12-24-2009, 04:29 AM
Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
It's tricky. Those who learn the craft of closed-pit or FR flying realise how much a deeper, more immersive experience it is and want to impress this upon those who have not discovered it yet...

And then there are those who've flown both and still think full switch sucks.

Those who fly full switch and like it will then become defensive, as they consider themselves the elite and cannot take it that they in fact just play the same game on much more boring settings.

Feathered_IV
12-24-2009, 04:56 AM
No way. They just think you are poor, misguided bretheren who are only playing half the game. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

jamesblonde1979
12-24-2009, 05:40 AM
Originally posted by Insuber:
Thank you James Blonde, I appreciate your offer. Which servers are you flying in, if I may ask _




I fly in Skies of Valour most of the time under the name 'JimmyBlonde'. TS connection info is available at skiesoffire.org.

Hope to catch you online soon!

K_Freddie
12-24-2009, 09:36 AM
yup.. don't mention the 'FR' word.. The crying lobby start bleeting how it not like real life.

Nobody has ever said it's real life (Oleg included), but a simulation of real life so that you armchair pilots can get the 'feel' of real life.

I enjoy that 'feel', and it's definitely better than IMOO than anything less. I did start with WW and slowly changed over a year or so of playing. On FR for years now, and will not settle for anything less.


Those who fly full switch and like it will then become defensive, as they consider themselves the elite and cannot take it that they in fact just play the same game on much more boring settings.
that's it.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TS_Sancho
12-24-2009, 11:32 AM
If you want to replicate the historical tactics used you have to fly full switch.

Whats the famous quote about hours of boredom interspaced with moments of terror?

SeaFireLIV
12-24-2009, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
If you want to replicate the historical tactics used you have to fly full switch.

Whats the famous quote about hours of boredom interspaced with moments of terror?

If you want to even consider you`re flying anything like the real guys of the time then you have to have at least the cockpit. No real pilot was able to see through the floor unless flying a bomber!

I started with cockpit on and will always have cockpit on. It`s the only way to fly closest to reality.

WonderWoman is NOT it.

Manu-6S
12-24-2009, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
If you want to replicate the historical tactics used you have to fly full switch.

Whats the famous quote about hours of boredom interspaced with moments of terror?

If you want to even consider you`re flying anything like the real guys of the time then you have to have at least the cockpit. No real pilot was able to see through the floor unless flying a bomber!

I started with cockpit on and will always have cockpit on. It`s the only way to fly closest to reality.

WonderWoman is NOT it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never tried WW, and I'll never try it... This is a WW2 warbirds simulator, not a X-Wings vs Tie fighter.

And saying this I don't mean to be disrespectful (Me = Elite, You = noob): simply flying Full Difficulty you are closer to the real life.

It's not a problem.. if you like it you can do it.. but you find "almost" real historic fights only in Full Difficulty servers. Bottom line.

And I continue: talking about Full difficulty Servers you find more historic action in Coops and online war (SEOW above all) than in simple Dogfight servers.

With all my years of experience I've never been nervous and anxious as during the start of a SEOW mission.

BillSwagger
12-24-2009, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
It's tricky. Those who learn the craft of closed-pit or FR flying realise how much a deeper, more immersive experience it is and want to impress this upon those who have not discovered it yet...

And then there are those who've flown both and still think full switch sucks.

Those who fly full switch and like it will then become defensive, as they consider themselves the elite and cannot take it that they in fact just play the same game on much more boring settings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the quality of play and how it mimics a real life scenario has more to do with the plane sets and maps than open/closed pit settings.

I fly open pit for different reasons than i might fly a closed pit server, but usually it comes down to variety and the types of planes offered.
Historical servers can often become predictable more so because of the limited plane set. Having full switch settings doesn't change that. However, having flown both difficulty settings for some time, i have to say there is more consistency in skill on full real servers.
Its not to say there aren't great pilots on open pit servers, but the tendency to find a cluster of noobs is much higher.

Remember that as a pilot you are only as good as the people you face. Open or closed pit doesn't matter, i just think open pit is easier to learn on so you have more noobs to shoot at than on closed pit servers.

This idea that one is more boring than the other probably comes down to individual attention span and preferences.

Do i join a server that i know the fights are frequent, but usually contained on deck, so tactically predictable and very limited?

or

Do I join a server where the fights are less frequent yet more tactically challenging because dogfights tend to start above 4000m?

For me it just depends on how much time i have to play, and if the server is populated enough.

Bill

Gammelpreusse
12-24-2009, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
It's tricky. Those who learn the craft of closed-pit or FR flying realise how much a deeper, more immersive experience it is and want to impress this upon those who have not discovered it yet...

And then there are those who've flown both and still think full switch sucks.

Those who fly full switch and like it will then become defensive, as they consider themselves the elite and cannot take it that they in fact just play the same game on much more boring settings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And there are those that actually enjoy both, depending on mood, time available and patience.

This game offers many different options to spend time with, there is no win in sticking to only one, just routine.

For me FR only got an option with TrackIR. Before that flying FR was more work then fun.

Insuber
12-25-2009, 11:28 AM
jamesblonde,

I'll be easy meat for you then ! Even though in the next months I'll have few spare time, I plan to do some training in QMB and offline, then try with SoV and UKDed2 ...

Bye,
Ins




Originally posted by jamesblonde1979:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Insuber:
Thank you James Blonde, I appreciate your offer. Which servers are you flying in, if I may ask _




I fly in Skies of Valour most of the time under the name 'JimmyBlonde'. TS connection info is available at skiesoffire.org.

Hope to catch you online soon! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SeaFireLIV
12-25-2009, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:



I think the quality of play and how it mimics a real life scenario has more to do with the plane sets and maps than open/closed pit settings.

I fly open pit for different reasons than i might fly a closed pit server, but usually it comes down to variety and the types of planes offered.
Historical servers can often become predictable more so because of the limited plane set. Having full switch settings doesn't change that. However, having flown both difficulty settings for some time, i have to say there is more consistency in skill on full real servers.
Its not to say there aren't great pilots on open pit servers, but the tendency to find a cluster of noobs is much higher.

Remember that as a pilot you are only as good as the people you face. Open or closed pit doesn't matter, i just think open pit is easier to learn on so you have more noobs to shoot at than on closed pit servers.

This idea that one is more boring than the other probably comes down to individual attention span and preferences.

Do i join a server that i know the fights are frequent, but usually contained on deck, so tactically predictable and very limited?

or

Do I join a server where the fights are less frequent yet more tactically challenging because dogfights tend to start above 4000m?

For me it just depends on how much time i have to play, and if the server is populated enough.

Bill

Can`t agree with any of this. I will explain indetail why later.

You said open and closed doesn`t matter and you`re only as good as the pilot you face. You are only as good as the pilot you face under equal conditions.

I once went on a server that allowed WWV by accident and stayed in cockpit view. I couldn`t figure out why everyone seemed to know where i was and always evaded every time when I was near them even going low and behind. I couldn`t fly WW like that. On a server with cockpit on, you can hide behind an enemy and if he decideds to look behind him he must tilt his plane so you get some warning.

Even then I still took out a few WW fliers because I noticed they have NO SITUATIONAL AWARENESS, at least some of them. they fly like a console game, staring straight ahead... perhaps that`s why they need WWV.

But against anyone who remembers to look around WWV might as well be Star Wars and I didn`t buy a World War Two flight sim for Star wars.

Erkki_M
12-25-2009, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
But against anyone who remembers to look around WWV might as well be Star Wars and I didn`t buy a World War Two flight sim for Star wars.

The point of all my posts concentrated into a single sentence.

M_Gunz
12-25-2009, 12:37 PM
Good thing you don't have to play that way of put up with egotists telling you that you are less if you do, right?

megalopsuche
12-25-2009, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Good thing you don't have to play that way of put up with egotists telling you that you are less if you do, right?

I find myself stuck in the middle because on the one hand, I believe that WW view changes the nature of ACM far more than any other kind of "realism" setting (below the nose deflection shooting). On the other, I know that unless you have a 27" monitor with Track IR your SA is severely hampered in full switch compared to normal, every day vision in a small aircraft. Even if you have the best gear money can buy, you will still have inferior vision in full switch.

I find that the best compromise is closed pit, no externals, but with icons enabled out to ~3km.

Erkki_M
12-25-2009, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Good thing you don't have to play that way of put up with egotists telling you that you are less if you do, right?

I find myself stuck in the middle because on the one hand, I believe that WW view changes the nature of ACM far more than any other kind of "realism" setting (below the nose deflection shooting). On the other, I know that unless you have a 27" monitor with Track IR your SA is severely hampered in full switch compared to normal, every day vision in a small aircraft. Even if you have the best gear money can buy, you will still have inferior vision in full switch.

I find that the best compromise is closed pit, no externals, but with icons enabled out to ~3km. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As the matter of fact, the best screen res for spotting dots is 1024 x 760. If you use any greater resolution the dots wont grow in size. Its far easier to spot a single black pixel from 1024 x 760 field than from 1650 x 1050...

IDing aircraft is another thing. Greater res means more details. LODs however will help you...

JtD
12-25-2009, 04:19 PM
There's nothing uncooler than icons. I rather have externals on so I can ID the plane that way.

megalopsuche
12-25-2009, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Erkki_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by megalopsuche:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Good thing you don't have to play that way of put up with egotists telling you that you are less if you do, right?

I find myself stuck in the middle because on the one hand, I believe that WW view changes the nature of ACM far more than any other kind of "realism" setting (below the nose deflection shooting). On the other, I know that unless you have a 27" monitor with Track IR your SA is severely hampered in full switch compared to normal, every day vision in a small aircraft. Even if you have the best gear money can buy, you will still have inferior vision in full switch.

I find that the best compromise is closed pit, no externals, but with icons enabled out to ~3km. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As the matter of fact, the best screen res for spotting dots is 1024 x 760. If you use any greater resolution the dots wont grow in size. Its far easier to spot a single black pixel from 1024 x 760 field than from 1650 x 1050...

IDing aircraft is another thing. Greater res means more details. LODs however will help you... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I've been told that before. The problem is that 1024x768 is ugly as sin...

Airmail109
12-25-2009, 05:29 PM
As I've said before, the full real lot should attach a shotgun to their monitor pointing at their heads. When shot down, depress trigger.

SeaFireLIV
12-25-2009, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
As I've said before, the full real lot should attach a shotgun to their monitor pointing at their heads. When shot down, depress trigger.

And as i`ve said before when some one else once said this a year or two ago (maybe you), `over-top` rubbish.



However, using the `shoot yourself` crap just because you and others like you see `elitism` where there is none is yours (and other`s who think like you) fault. The only reason why you lot see `elitism` is because you choose to victimise` yourselves that way. It`s the typical rage against something, anything response and possibily a bit of an inferiority complex built in too. I don`t feel superior over anyone because I fly full real and no one else should too. I`ve even dropped the realism level with icons, etc, to have a flight with others when needed.

However, full real in IL2 is not full real. I always have `No Instant mission to` Off because that`s more realistic.

Insuber
12-25-2009, 05:45 PM
Please, please, keep the thread on an informative and helpful mood, I'm not interested in a dispute that has been played several times already.

Bye,
Insuber

Airmail109
12-25-2009, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
As I've said before, the full real lot should attach a shotgun to their monitor pointing at their heads. When shot down, depress trigger.

And as i`ve said before when some one else once said this a year or two ago (maybe you), `over-top` rubbish.



However, using the `shoot yourself` crap just because you and others like you see `elitism` where there is none is yours (and other`s who think like you) fault. The only reason why you lot see `elitism` is because you choose to victimise` yourselves that way. It`s the typical rage against something, anything response and possibily a bit of an inferiority complex built in too. I don`t feel superior over anyone because I fly full real and no one else should too. I`ve even dropped the realism level with icons, etc, to have a flight with others when needed.

However, full real in IL2 is not full real. I always have `No Instant mission to` Off because that`s more realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! I've seen you've read a little about Freud and the self! Rubbish!

I just don't see it as "full real", in real life I can look over the sides of the cockpit or lean around seats to get a good view dead 6. In real life short arses would take G forces better. In real life you have stereoscopic vision and a proneness to ****ting yourself if tracer starts flying past your cockpit. In real life it's pretty easy to pick out a plane 1000 foot below you silhouetted against the ground. In real life if a big *** 88mm shell went off near your cockpit and you got a piece of shrapnel stuck in your arse, your vision wouldn't cloud a mildly irritating light red. You'd be screaming in pain barely able to control the aircraft.

Those people who arnt playing full switch are not missing out. I'd say in terms of realism, the closest thing is cockpit on with icons. Perhaps icons switched off if you have track IR.

The only person I could see doing well out of us here in a real life situation whereby one was given 20 hours of training and then your chucked into the Battle of Britain, would be someone like Choctaw. That's my problem with it being called "full real". Seen them on HL all the time banging on about it, just a bunch of walts.

Manu-6S
12-25-2009, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
LOL! I've seen you've read a little about Freud and the self! Rubbish!

I just don't see it as "full real", in real life I can look over the sides of the cockpit or lean around seats to get a good view dead 6. In real life short arses would take G forces better. In real life you have stereoscopic vision and a proneness to ****ting yourself if tracer starts flying past your cockpit. In real life it's pretty easy to pick out a plane 1000 foot below you silhouetted against the ground. In real life if a big *** 88mm shell went off near your cockpit and you got a piece of shrapnel stuck in your arse, your vision wouldn't cloud a mildly irritating light red. You'd be screaming in pain barely able to control the aircraft.

Those people who arnt playing full switch are not missing out. I'd say in terms of realism, the closest thing is cockpit on with icons. Perhaps icons switched off if you have track IR.

The only person I could see doing well out of us here in a real life situation whereby one was given 20 hours of training and then your chucked into the Battle of Britain, would be someone like Choctaw. That's my problem with it being called "full real". Seen them on HL all the time banging on about it, just a bunch of walts.

Who's callin it "full real"? Maybe Full difficulty... of course it's still far from reality, but you can't deny that it's closer to real life than WW.

Ambush is still the most realistic tactic... in a server with external on you must be blind to be killed that way (can't imagine a WW server).

I admit that I hate the "invisible dots under/black dot above" issue of this game, and the the engine radar too... but it's still more realistic to search and find the enemy without the help of a coloured arrow on the screen.

jamesblonde1979
12-25-2009, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Insuber:
Please, please, keep the thread on an informative and helpful mood, I'm not interested in a dispute that has been played several times already.

Bye,
Insuber

it happens around here with alarming regularity mate. Once you get on to certain subjects stopping the drama is like trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

M_Gunz
12-25-2009, 07:04 PM
It's a big plus that people can choose and use the settings they want and even change them to suit themselves.

10 or so years ago with another sim I remember an F-16 pilot saying that external views were the closest he
got to the actual experience. Not the same, just closest.

The hardest part about seeing other planes in the air IRL I found was in just finding them. They're never
quite where you think. I know that I didn't have enough practice, it has to do with scanning technique I
was told and that comes with practice... the better your eyesight the farther away you can find other planes.

IRL is not pixels either. When part of all of a plane I'm watching disappears at under 1km, I'll deal with icons
thank you, just only at guns (long) range thank you. And I do run at 1024x768 though now I can set the view range
at full instead of medium at least -- it's not so much fun when others can see and stalk you from beyond your own
render distance.

I still like the Rowan-MiG-Alley view the best of all PC sims I've played. I hope that SOW is at least as good.

K_Freddie
12-26-2009, 01:31 AM
While I was training for my PPL, my instructor was amazed that I could pick out a/c long before he could.
As Gunz said.. A bit of experience always helps.

I use another method, which comes from 'mother nature' herself. Most animals/insects cannot see their prey if it doesn't move, So you do not focus on anything specific, but scan for movement, and bingo.. there's the aircraft some 20km away.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FlixFlix
12-26-2009, 03:05 AM
The most ludicrous claim of all is that non-full-switch flying is more real and/or more difficult than full switch. Come on now.

About the "full real is not really full real (so point a shotgun at yourself)"-nonsense: silly dispute about semantics. A waste of time.

M_Gunz
12-26-2009, 06:04 AM
Originally posted by FlixFlix:
The most ludicrous claim of all is that non-full-switch flying is more real and/or more difficult than full switch.

Who besides You made that claim? Oh yeah, I quoted an F-16 pilot saying that he found flying with externals in
sims 10+ years ago to be closer to the real experience so take it another few steps and viola!


Come on now.

Same to you for that little switch-around of your own.


About the "full real is not really full real (so point a shotgun at yourself)"-nonsense: silly dispute about semantics. A waste of time.

Full real isn't. Let's leave the shotgun out of it. There is no switch that gives peripheral vision as real,
none that changes single-eye-POV 32-bit color pixels to real stereo vision or allow instrument scans as real.

There are however switches that actually go some of the way to make up for such handicaps but.. they.. don't..
make.. for.. pseudo-.. macho.. adolescent.. brag.. "rights".

Get out of it what you want. I can't handle WW and one of the first things I do on an install is change the
external view keys into ones that by default require Shift, Ctrl, or Alt combinations. I learned not to fly
on servers with externals enabled but OTOH I don't tell people they shouldn't either.

Come on? How about get over it?

BM357_Sniper
12-26-2009, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
As I've said before, the full real lot should attach a shotgun to their monitor pointing at their heads. When shot down, depress trigger.

And as i`ve said before when some one else once said this a year or two ago (maybe you), `over-top` rubbish.



However, using the `shoot yourself` crap just because you and others like you see `elitism` where there is none is yours (and other`s who think like you) fault. The only reason why you lot see `elitism` is because you choose to victimise` yourselves that way. It`s the typical rage against something, anything response and possibily a bit of an inferiority complex built in too. I don`t feel superior over anyone because I fly full real and no one else should too. I`ve even dropped the realism level with icons, etc, to have a flight with others when needed.

However, full real in IL2 is not full real. I always have `No Instant mission to` Off because that`s more realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! I've seen you've read a little about Freud and the self! Rubbish!

I just don't see it as "full real", in real life I can look over the sides of the cockpit or lean around seats to get a good view dead 6. In real life short arses would take G forces better. In real life you have stereoscopic vision and a proneness to ****ting yourself if tracer starts flying past your cockpit. In real life it's pretty easy to pick out a plane 1000 foot below you silhouetted against the ground. In real life if a big *** 88mm shell went off near your cockpit and you got a piece of shrapnel stuck in your arse, your vision wouldn't cloud a mildly irritating light red. You'd be screaming in pain barely able to control the aircraft.

Those people who arnt playing full switch are not missing out. I'd say in terms of realism, the closest thing is cockpit on with icons. Perhaps icons switched off if you have track IR.

The only person I could see doing well out of us here in a real life situation whereby one was given 20 hours of training and then your chucked into the Battle of Britain, would be someone like Choctaw. That's my problem with it being called "full real". Seen them on HL all the time banging on about it, just a bunch of walts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's like you want to argue just to argue. So what if you like padlock, externals and other "not as real" things turned on or off? The term was coined originally by the BM357 years and years ago FULL SWITCH. All it means is that its as close as the games lets you get, according to Oleg and IL2. We all know its not near real so why do you constantly argue the point? Oh and I'm sorry about your inferiority complex, truely I am. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

K_Freddie
12-26-2009, 02:04 PM
With that F16 pilot, what I think he means to say is that comparing to an F16 pit, in which the pilot sits fairly high, and has a good all round unobstructed view (except for the gunsight), I'd say his assessment is probably fairly accurate.

Also remember that the F16 wings are 'far' behind the pilot, not like the games wings.. so yeah.. Open pit is the most appropiate for him.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

megalopsuche
12-26-2009, 02:23 PM
I've watched an F-16 pilot fly Il-2... He spins frequently and has difficulty compensating for the sensitive pitch axis and sluggish roll response... And that's all before he has to spot an enemy dot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

TS_Sancho
12-26-2009, 03:35 PM
I use another method, which comes from 'mother nature' herself. Most animals/insects cannot see their prey if it doesn't move, So you do not focus on anything specific, but scan for movement, and bingo.. there's the aircraft some 20km away.


The above is good advice.

In the game I try to search for movement as well and am usually the first in my flight to spot bogies at a distance or against terrain.

M_Gunz
12-26-2009, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by BM357_Sniper:
We all know its not near real so why do you constantly argue the point?

Why oh why?


Oh and I'm sorry about your inferiority complex, truely I am. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh... there it is. Yeah, sorry is a good description for lines like that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

M_Gunz
12-26-2009, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by megalopsuche:
I've watched an F-16 pilot fly Il-2... He spins frequently and has difficulty compensating for the sensitive pitch axis and sluggish roll response... And that's all before he has to spot an enemy dot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Back when WWSensei was active online you would have been able to get some lessons you wouldn't soon forget.

BM357_Sniper
12-27-2009, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BM357_Sniper:
We all know its not near real so why do you constantly argue the point?

Why oh why?


Oh and I'm sorry about your inferiority complex, truely I am. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh... there it is. Yeah, sorry is a good description for lines like that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hope you didn't think that was directed to you gunz, it wasn't. Also I didn't intend for it to be so mean spirited even though after reading it again it seemed that way.

M_Gunz
12-27-2009, 05:06 PM
It did seem a bit mean but my objection was that it is also a wrong view and sorry there I was mean right back.

megalopsuche
12-27-2009, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by megalopsuche:
I've watched an F-16 pilot fly Il-2... He spins frequently and has difficulty compensating for the sensitive pitch axis and sluggish roll response... And that's all before he has to spot an enemy dot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Back when WWSensei was active online you would have been able to get some lessons you wouldn't soon forget. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shux, I get lessons in humility from people who aren't real fighter pilots all of the time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My point was only that someone whose profession is flying the real thing still has a hard time in a computer flight sim when they're new to it. On the other hand, I got to watch him fly Falcon 4 AF and it was eye opening. 90% of the time his eyes were on the radar and threat indicator, rarely outside of the cockpit.

M_Gunz
12-27-2009, 05:53 PM
When I first knew Sensei he was anything but new to flight sims. You are right, all the difference
in the world right there!

Insuber
04-18-2010, 02:45 PM
Hi. My name is Insuber and I'm no longer a nocockpit-coholic ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The mate who suggested me Joint-Ops had it right (M. Gunz ...) it is marvelous ... thank you, the no cockpit is another world. And btw going on with J-O is really good.

Bye,
Insuber

M2morris
04-18-2010, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by dahoyle:
Well, it's real D@MNED hard to do with someone who doesn't have their head burried completely up their third point of contact. It is quite simply outside your control, wether or not someone picks you up in the sky by "cheating". You may have dozens of tracks which show you got away with it, but out of how many hundreds of missions?
Sry man, I have to take this OT from thread jab.
It should be: 'fourth' point of contact.
It would a little hard to have your head buried in your thigh muscle. The fourth also for that matter.

WTE_Galway
04-19-2010, 01:30 AM
lol its so tempting to troll in these threads but one must resist ...

Seriously guys, horses for courses http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If your on an air quake dogfight server flying tight circles and loops below 5000' in late war uberplanes why not use wonder woman view after all its all about ego points and kills anyway. Those servers are all "game" and minimal "sim" so do what it takes to get an edge.

On the other hand if your flying a historically accurate co-op mission recreating as accurately as possible a real event from WWII right down to historically accurate individual skins ... well you are moving well away from "game" and well into "simulation" territory and the wonder women view just makes no sense.

No particular mode is "better".

GIAP.Shura
04-19-2010, 06:18 AM
This old chestnut again... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

In my opinion, you can argue that in real life you have peripheral and stereoscopic vision and about the relative values of different resolutions and talk about the LOD models all day long but when it comes down to it you can't see through the floor of a plane and planes don't have neon signs floating above them. Claiming the addition of something which doesn't exist in real life in order to compensate for something which isn't modelled makes it more real just seems to be grasping at straws to me.

This doesn't mean that I think people shouldn't play less than full switch. People should get their kicks how they like and I can fully understand that tastes differ. However, Saying that Full Real is not more realistic because it does not fully simulate reality is a straw man argument and largely based on semantics (hence why I prefer to call it full switch).

Strangely enough though, Aimal's post about a shotgun to the head is relevant. If realism is what you are interested in then having consequences for your performance and death will get you closer to realism than whether icons are on or off. In agreement with the earlier poster flying an SEOW campaign with a squad whatever the settings will get you closer to reality than any full switch dogfight server.

If you fly on dogfight servers an interesting experiment is to give yourself some Dead is Dead conditions (i.e. some exclusion penalty if you die). Even a 5 minute no fly penalty will make you change how you fly.

Oh and for what it is worth, even although they are ancient games, the X-Wing series are excellent "sims".

thefruitbat
04-19-2010, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Insuber:
Hi. My name is Insuber and I'm no longer a nocockpit-coholic ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The mate who suggested me Joint-Ops had it right (M. Gunz ...) it is marvelous ... thank you, the no cockpit is another world. And btw going on with J-O is really good.

Bye,
Insuber

Nice flying with you, over with the dogz the other day, hope you enjoyed yourself,

cheers fruitbat

ROXunreal
04-19-2010, 07:32 AM
Hell I used to play open cockpit all the time and the ubizoo coups were my first closed cockpit experience (apart from online, which I always play closed cockpit). At first it seemed impossible to fly and mouse pan at the same time but I got used to it rather quickly. I still play open cockpit when I wish for quick action, but am playing closed more and more, with externals. I plan to start playing without externals too, though never completely without icons

BillSwagger
04-19-2010, 08:33 AM
i really can't put one over the other, they both have a different approach and i find them equally entertaining.

I think i've only seen one server that has a closed pit setting that utilizes a wider range of plane sets, like open pit does.

I pay more attention to the plane sets and the maps than anything else. The settings seem to matter less to me open or closed pit is simply a matter of the type of game im looking for.

Insuber
04-19-2010, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Insuber:
Hi. My name is Insuber and I'm no longer a nocockpit-coholic ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The mate who suggested me Joint-Ops had it right (M. Gunz ...) it is marvelous ... thank you, the no cockpit is another world. And btw going on with J-O is really good.

Bye,
Insuber

Nice flying with you, over with the dogz the other day, hope you enjoyed yourself,

cheers fruitbat </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Fruitbat!

It's nice that you remember me, I was starting to enjoy the coop indeed, nice people and all, but the fxx@#+*§g hotel connection went astray ... I'll try and do a Saturday Ubi Zoo event http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Cheerio!
Insuber

TheFamilyMan
04-19-2010, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Insuber:
Hi. My name is Insuber and I'm no longer a nocockpit-coholic ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The mate who suggested me Joint-Ops had it right (M. Gunz ...) it is marvelous ... thank you, the no cockpit is another world. And btw going on with J-O is really good.

Bye,
Insuber Congrats on being cured in less than four months. I've only partaken of the no-cockpit once or twice and never could stand the taste...lucky for me I guess... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

K_Freddie
04-19-2010, 04:12 PM
Insuber here's an old ADW V4.08 (5MB)online (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/ADWEscape.zip) (unmodded) track.

It's just a demo of how to use the Hat Switch (I prefer this) in full-pit mode. You'll notice a bit of lag at one point.
but it gives an idea of fullpit.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jumoschwanz
04-19-2010, 05:25 PM
I have a LOT of IL2 videos up on my YouTube channel that are all closed cockpit using a hat-switch here:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Jumoschwanz#g/u

The videos are ok, but they are not as good as watching a track because the frame-rates are not good. Despite having a strong four-core computer, the best framerate I can capture in HD is about 30fps......

M2morris
04-19-2010, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
I have a LOT of IL2 videos up on my YouTube channel that are all closed cockpit using a hat-switch here:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Jumoschwanz#g/u

The videos are ok, but they are not as good as watching a track because the frame-rates are not good. Despite having a strong four-core computer, the best framerate I can capture in HD is about 30fps......
I watched the Cat and Mouse with a Spitfire one. How did you get the engine to go back to normal so fast after the overheat warning? It usually takes a lot longer for me. Nice flying.

Jabo14
04-19-2010, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Insuber:
Hi,

I need your wisdom and experience. I would like to have your suggestions about the transition from open cockpit to full real servers. How to do it without too much stress ?

Thanks for your help,
Insuber


I born in full settings squadron.

Then….some times i go to open Copit servers ..for fun :P

Now I use hat-switch and the Mouse in my left hand.

Before.
I make and use Free Track, but i donīt use free track now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...RaAw&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foThOcIRaAw&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...PaEQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-1YOyHPaEQ&feature=related)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QqAqb_SZV0

:P

Insuber
04-20-2010, 09:31 AM
Thank you all, guys ! Actually I do prefer the TrackIR for the moment, it lowers my learning curve. In future I'll see.

@TheFamilyMan : I had previous (long time ago ...) experience of cockpit-only, but going back from open-pit was really tough, as I used to have a lot of fun with that ...

The trick to succeed was Joint-Ops, they really made it simple for me with their Basic Flight School. And moreover I will enjoy their advanced training program, a lot of fun in itself.
I'm considering to join a squad, so to participate in some of the various online wars ... it should be very funny also.

Bye,
Insuber

Christos_swc
04-21-2010, 03:43 AM
I prefer open cockpit and external views because it is much more fun for me.
I did however try servers with no externals (but always icons).
To my surprise shooting down the enemy even with the restricted gunsight view of a FW with my favorite deflection shots was not a problem.
But each style of flying requires different experiences for improvement so I concentrate on open cockpit servers.
"Full real" I've tried and didn't like, I prefer more frantic action, even being the Boom n zoom type of flier.
It's not about difficulty.
What is easy for you is easy for your opponent as well and vice versa.
In open cockpit servers the good pilots will shoot you down, the new pilots will suffer badly till they learn.
I'd rather play French pool with an inexperienced player than 8 pool with a hotshot, it's not the game itself but the opposition that sets the difficulty level.
Open cockpit is where I have fun and learning all the time.
It's good to have different choices, maybe one day I'll switch.

F19_Orheim
04-21-2010, 04:58 AM
I'd say go full switch immediately. It's like learning to swim, just throw the kids in http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Really we have had quite a few rookies joining SvAF (F16 & F19) and they get used to full switch "restictions" quite quickly.
therefore I also suggest u join up a squad who fly full switch only; with the right assistance you will for sure get used to the setting quite quickly.

Jumoschwanz
04-27-2010, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by M2morris:
I watched the Cat and Mouse with a Spitfire one. How did you get the engine to go back to normal so fast after the overheat warning? It usually takes a lot longer for me. Nice flying.

If you pay attention and back off the throttle right when you get an overheat warning it will cool quickly, especially if you have your speed up and the radiator open. If you overheat it for a long time with the radiator closed then it will take too long to cool and you risk smoking the engine.

I recently helped a noob set up IL2 on his computer. He said he did not like flying with the cockpit on because some jet fighter game he had on a console did not have a cockpit, and I told him that he MUST get used to flying hard settings if he wants to fly on all the better online servers against the best IL2 pilots.

Those who start off and get used to wonder-woman mode rarely ever break the habit and go on to develop new skills that let them turn off easy/normal settings switches, where if you first learn to fly hard settings then it is easy for you to fly easy settings later on, and ridiculously easy to fly with no cockpit.

WTE_Galway
04-27-2010, 08:02 AM
You know ... I do not think I have ever flown open cockpit online ... ever.

My few efforts at WW view offline left me with this weird sense of deja vu while I looked around for the Kilrathi.

TheGrunch
04-27-2010, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
My few efforts at WW view offline left me with this weird sense of deja vu while I looked around for the Kilrathi.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

I played WW + externals for a few weeks, but I just got bored of it...it's like full switch with 2/3rds of the excitement. Hard to get surprised or lose visual when you're handed the enemy's location of a plate.

Jumoschwanz
05-03-2010, 11:51 AM
The common arguments against full switch are:

1. It does not give as good a view as a pilot had in WWII because he could move his head on many more ways than IL2 lets you, so no-cockpit and outside views are needed.

2. Icons are necessary because not everyone has good enough equipment to run the resolutions that let you identify aircraft at a distance.

The first point is flawed because though it is true that the IL2 sim restricts head movement compared to what I real pilot probably had in WWII, it does not restrict it that much, and not enough to make a difference in how well you will fare in virtual combat.

Going to no-cockpit, and especially going to outside views to correct such a small loss in the percentage of head movement overcorrects the problem, and at the same time it destroys many more realistic experiences and the immersion the sim offers.

If you are a "gamer" then no problem, use Wonder Woman view and outside views so you can see what everyone is doing on the server. If you are a simmer then you will gain a lot more immersion than you lose if you keep the cockpit locked and the outside views off.

Argument number 2 about Icons being necessary is not really good either. While NINE years ago when the sim first came out and we were all flying on PentiumIII and AMD Thunderbirds and 17" CRTs, video quality was taxed, I doubt if even 1% of the online community is now flying with such equipment.

There is no good reason not to learn to I.D. aircraft like they had to in WWII, but there are a lot of ignoble reasons......

Because I got used to flying full switch when IL2 was new, I now can almost always I.D. an approaching aircraft long before the limited icons on servers like WarClouds come on, so it is a good laugh for me when all the sudden there is a "spit" label on an aircraft that I knew was a spit long before by either it's silhouette or by it's tracers etc..

The last full month I flew on a full switch server I shot down over 100 aircraft and only accidentally shot down one friendly, hardly a reason to poo-poo full-switch as it was very common in WWII for pilots to fire on friendlies also.

Lastly, in real life all pilots had differing visual ability, which in IL2 is mimicked by the various and different kinds of equipment we all use, and it is one more realistic facet that is destroyed when the "gamer" enables his crutches. Saying it is no fair that we all have different equipment is as silly as saying in WWII everyone should have had the same cornea implants by surgery!

With their skills I.D.ing aircraft, navigating by compass etc., the pilot that can cut it on hard settings is really the cream of the online crop.

Insuber
05-03-2010, 02:05 PM
Having flown quite extensively in the two worlds, I can say that there are fine gents and pilots in both; the opposite holds true as well, but in the no-cockpit servers morons are way less numerous.

Speaking about aeroplanes, IMHO one of the biggest disadvantagse of the no-cockpit is the relative monotony of visuals: in cockpit-always-on servers one can appreciate and exploit the different visibilities of different planes, and often balance the inferiority of a plane thanks to its better visibility, and vice-versa. The P39 for instance has an excellent rear visibility (and a mediocre lateral), the MC.202 has a very bad one, and so on. All this has zero relevance in no cockpit servers.

Another plus of the locked cockpit is that one has a much better sense of the relative positions of ground, enemies etc.

Cheers,
Insuber
J-O BFS, PGS

TinyTim
05-03-2010, 02:15 PM
There was a server ages ago on hyperlobby, that had no cockpit and no externals (!). Interesting experience to say the least.

Insuber
05-03-2010, 02:32 PM
One thing that is sorely missing is a "spectator" view, allowing to watch the other players in servers without externals. ROF has it, I find it nice.

Insuber

Erkki_M
05-03-2010, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
The common arguments against full switch are:

1. It does not give as good a view as a pilot had in WWII because he could move his head on many more ways than IL2 lets you, so no-cockpit and outside views are needed.

2. Icons are necessary because not everyone has good enough equipment to run the resolutions that let you identify aircraft at a distance.

The first point is flawed because though it is true that the IL2 sim restricts head movement compared to what I real pilot probably had in WWII, it does not restrict it that much, and not enough to make a difference in how well you will fare in virtual combat.

Going to no-cockpit, and especially going to outside views to correct such a small loss in the percentage of head movement overcorrects the problem, and at the same time it destroys many more realistic experiences and the immersion the sim offers.

If you are a "gamer" then no problem, use Wonder Woman view and outside views so you can see what everyone is doing on the server. If you are a simmer then you will gain a lot more immersion than you lose if you keep the cockpit locked and the outside views off.

Argument number 2 about Icons being necessary is not really good either. While NINE years ago when the sim first came out and we were all flying on PentiumIII and AMD Thunderbirds and 17" CRTs, video quality was taxed, I doubt if even 1% of the online community is now flying with such equipment.

There is no good reason not to learn to I.D. aircraft like they had to in WWII, but there are a lot of ignoble reasons......

Because I got used to flying full switch when IL2 was new, I now can almost always I.D. an approaching aircraft long before the limited icons on servers like WarClouds come on, so it is a good laugh for me when all the sudden there is a "spit" label on an aircraft that I knew was a spit long before by either it's silhouette or by it's tracers etc..

The last full month I flew on a full switch server I shot down over 100 aircraft and only accidentally shot down one friendly, hardly a reason to poo-poo full-switch as it was very common in WWII for pilots to fire on friendlies also.

Lastly, in real life all pilots had differing visual ability, which in IL2 is mimicked by the various and different kinds of equipment we all use, and it is one more realistic facet that is destroyed when the "gamer" enables his crutches. Saying it is no fair that we all have different equipment is as silly as saying in WWII everyone should have had the same cornea implants by surgery!

With their skills I.D.ing aircraft, navigating by compass etc., the pilot that can cut it on hard settings is really the cream of the online crop.

I find it amusing how people who have no problem IDing things in FPS shooters when they only see them as a few pixels, and which are all "closed pit no externals" with limited FOV argue that they need exterior views, labels and such stuff in flight sims. "Ghosting" in most games is regarded as cheating, but not here. You can do it even if you were still alive, without being in comms with others, too.

And why is stereoview not a problem in shooters, where you'd be able to see partly behind the gun and closer obstacles, but is in flight sims? Same with head movement: still waiting for realistic 6DOF myself, though. If the pilot is strapped with 5-point belts into the seat, I doubt he can push his face to the plexiglass to check his six. What kind of anatomy would allow that anyways...

The "cant ID far away aircraft" is BS too, I have no trouble IDing a fighter sized aircraft 5-6km away, even further if it happens to shoot, and 8-10km away can start guessing which side's colours it might be wearing by its behaviour. Is this realistic? And that I could do with 17" TFT running 1024 x 960, and almost the same with my current 22" wide 1680 x 1050.

However. I think the arcade servers are still needed. Not everyone has time or will to learn the game in its full complexity, and there are never enough flight simmers. Any popularity is good popularity. They are also good for people who are still "on the learning curve" - its supposed to be fun, after all, and going through half a year of training or half a year of constant dying without knowing what hit you is perhaps realistic, but certainly not fun.

DKoor
05-04-2010, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by TinyTim:
There was a server ages ago on hyperlobby, that had no cockpit and no externals (!). Interesting experience to say the least. I remember it... it was in many ways closer to full real than cockpit on + externals. IMHO http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Gadje
05-04-2010, 03:01 AM
That would be the 'radar' arrows that gave that impression no doubt http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif