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View Full Version : 110%,WEP,Water,MW50 ETC



Freiwillige
07-16-2009, 07:28 PM
Can we get some sort of consensus going here.

WEP as I understand it is WAR Emergency Power, so How can you have 110% and WEP!?

Why do some aircraft have 100% and others 110% and still others 110% plus wep\MW50 Etc?

It seems Oleg and his group has various standards depending on when aircraft went into the game and never went back a retrofitted his older aircraft to the newer standards?

Your thoughts?

VW-IceFire
07-16-2009, 07:46 PM
WEP is anything above 100% as far as I understand.

The other elements are variations on the same theme.

110% with nothing else is just increasing the engine boost

MW50, GM-1, Water Injection, Forzah, etc. are just different ways of preventing the engine from detonation under high pressures. These aren't things that Oleg's team forgot to clean up...these are legitimate and historical ways of gaining engine power in WWII. Its not perfectly represented but for myself is accurate enough for now.

horseback
07-16-2009, 08:39 PM
In the original Il-2 Sturmovik, the highest any throttle went was 100%.

With the introduction of Forgotten Battles, the starting point for the current game we play, most aircraft had throttles which went up to 110%, which I suppose represented the way most fighter's throttles were set up.

In many of the real things, that last 10% or so of throttle was limited in some way; there would be a wire or weak strip of metal or similar preventing the pilot from pushing the throttle to the max without breaking that barrier. Generally, this kept him from overtaxing the engine and reducing its operational life unless he really needed to, and also (if he made it back to base) made it obvious to his maintenance crew that he had pushed the engine extra hard, so that they could either do the extra testing and repair, or replace the engine.

In the game as in real life, for some aircraft that last 10% was the War Emergency Power (WEP) setting, and there warn't no more.

In others, the 100% setting was all there was in normal throttle push, but there was a special button or lever that provided a gas or liquid enhancement sort of WEP.

In still others, the engine had the original 110% capability AND a little extra 'go gas' on top of THAT.

Usually, the extra enhancement both pumped up the power and helped keep the engine running a bit cooler for a short period of time, but there was a price to be paid if you continued to push the engine that hard for an extended period. It was not something you were supposed to do every time you got into a fight; it was a last resort that gambled that you could get clear of trouble before you trashed your engine.

cheers

horseback

Freiwillige
07-16-2009, 08:52 PM
The "Break the wire" setting was on early and maybe later spitfires. It was wired at roughly 90% pushing thru the wire gave it its WEP rating and was used for only short emergency power.

There can be no 110% throttle, Can you push your cars gas pedal 110%? 100% is the max! The other 10% has to come from WEP, MW50, GM-1, Water Injection, Forzah, etc.

So the root of my question is how some aircraft can have 110% and WEP separate?

Pyrres
07-16-2009, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:
The "Break the wire" setting was on early and maybe later spitfires. It was wired at roughly 90% pushing thru the wire gave it its WEP rating and was used for only short emergency power.

There can be no 110% throttle, Can you push your cars gas pedal 110%? 100% is the max! The other 10% has to come from WEP, MW50, GM-1, Water Injection, Forzah, etc.

So the root of my question is how some aircraft can have 110% and WEP separate?

Yeah, but if you have a turbo in your car, can you adjust the boost presures if needed, in some you can, in some you dont. For example you go to dragstrip, you want that extra oomph, you overboost your car so you have much much more horsepower, but it can take it only for few minutes without starting to disinigrate. On normal driving situation that engine could not survive that extra horsepower. Thats why we have the 110% throttle setting. It is the same with WW2 fighters, exept now you dont race, you just try to survive.

Kettenhunde
07-16-2009, 10:09 PM
WEP as I understand it is WAR Emergency Power, so How can you have 110% and WEP!?

Can of worms as this is a very misunderstood subject.

Your game has the right idea in using a percentage power greater than 100% to represent what you think of as "full throttle".

However, the specific percentage is generally not correct as most engines are well over 110% capacity at higher ratings.

The percentage refers to the percentage power of full capacity.

100% full capacity for aircraft engines is the maximum continuous rating.

Take off power and climb power are typically beyond the sustainable capacity of the engine. That is why they are time limited or restricted in some manner.

For example, the Merlin 66 100% capacity is found at +7lbs boost. At +25lbs we are working well over 10% the capacity of the engine for continuous operations. At over 3 times the manifold pressure I would hazard a guess that we are bumping up well over 160% of the motors capacity or higher.

On the BMW801D series 100% capacity is found at 1.2ata and Start u. Notleistung represents 133% of the engines capacity.

Understand rpm plays a role in our power picture and I have eliminated it in the above examples. You should get the idea though.

This is separate from an ADI system such as Water injection. These are systems designed to expand the knock limited performance of the engine or as in the case of Nitrous Oxide provide enrich the oxygen supply of the mixture. These are typically much higher than the rated capacity.

In the BMW801 series you are looking at ~156% of rated capacity at Erhohte Notleistung.

All the best,

Crumpp

No41Sqn_Banks
07-16-2009, 11:21 PM
Within the game the 100% power setting represents take-off power.

Freiwillige
07-17-2009, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> WEP as I understand it is WAR Emergency Power, so How can you have 110% and WEP!?

Can of worms as this is a very misunderstood subject.

Your game has the right idea in using a percentage power greater than 100% to represent what you think of as "full throttle".

However, the specific percentage is generally not correct as most engines are well over 110% capacity at higher ratings.

The percentage refers to the percentage power of full capacity.

100% full capacity for aircraft engines is the maximum continuous rating.

Take off power and climb power are typically beyond the sustainable capacity of the engine. That is why they are time limited or restricted in some manner.

For example, the Merlin 66 100% capacity is found at +7lbs boost. At +25lbs we are working well over 10% the capacity of the engine for continuous operations. At over 3 times the manifold pressure I would hazard a guess that we are bumping up well over 160% of the motors capacity or higher.

On the BMW801D series 100% capacity is found at 1.2ata and Start u. Notleistung represents 133% of the engines capacity.

Understand rpm plays a role in our power picture and I have eliminated it in the above examples. You should get the idea though.

This is separate from an ADI system such as Water injection. These are systems designed to expand the knock limited performance of the engine or as in the case of Nitrous Oxide provide enrich the oxygen supply of the mixture. These are typically much higher than the rated capacity.

In the BMW801 series you are looking at ~156% of rated capacity at Erhohte Notleistung.

All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Crump but I do understand that and find issue with it in the SIM for the following reasons.

Lets just skip the throttle percentage and go to the visual cue of your throttle moving forwards in the sim. At max forward (110%) you also have the option to push a button for W.E.P.
Now this is not MW-50, GM-1 Erlicht Nolstong or what ever its called when the Germans shot fuel directly into the supercharger. Its W.E.P., and labeled that on screen. W.E.P. is a throttle position is it not?

I can understand a button for MW-50, GM1, Forzah, Water Injection etc, but not W.E.P. since at full throttle you should already be at W.E.P.

BillSwagger
07-17-2009, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by Freiwillige:

So the root of my question is how some aircraft can have 110% and WEP separate?

the simple answer is that some planes required you manually operate the boost, while other planes were rigged so it came on when you pushed throttle over 100%.

Its a simple answer because this might not be an accurate model to what occurred in real life.

I also think pushing the engine over 100% would quickly overheat the engine or cause severe knocking and misfiring, unless WEP or some sort of boost is active.

Different boost systems also work in different ways.
WEP, water and MW50, allow for higher compression ratios with out damaging the engine.
With out them operating over 100% is very limited.


Other boosts, are similar to nitros injection, and work toward giving the engine a temporary gain in horse power.

Kettenhunde
07-17-2009, 12:54 AM
Within the game the 100% power setting represents take-off power.


It is not correct then.

Kettenhunde
07-17-2009, 01:01 AM
W.E.P. is a throttle position is it not?

It really depends on the details of the particular aircraft engine as others have noted. WEP can be both a throttle setting and a valve or switch to operate the ADI or oxygen enrichment system or just a throttle setting.

There is no "one size fits all" which is the compromise your game designers had to make.

For example, the BMW801D2 as installed on the FW190A8 has a simple manifold pressure increase to achieve Erhohte Notleistung. It is not an ADI system such as water injection. However rather than redesign the manifold pressure regulator, BMW installed a valve, venturi, and line attached to the engines vacuum system that pilot operates it by pulling a lever. The valve relieves the pressure on the static side of the diaphragm fooling the regulator into thinking the static pressure is lower. It reacts by increasing the manifold pressure on the other side of the diaphragm.


I also think pushing the engine over 100% would quickly overheat the engine

100% in aircraft engines is not maximum power capability; it is the maximum power the engine can produce without any operating restrictions.

Aircraft engines routinely operate over 100% capacity because of the required margins required for flight are narrow.

The ratings beyond maximum continuous have restrictions placed upon them based on the details of the particular installation.

All the best,

Crumpp

Ba5tard5word
07-17-2009, 01:07 AM
Il-2's dials go to 11!

Freiwillige
07-17-2009, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">W.E.P. is a throttle position is it not?

It really depends on the details of the particular aircraft engine as others have noted. WEP can be both a throttle setting and a valve or switch to operate the ADI or oxygen enrichment system or just a throttle setting.

There is no "one size fits all" which is the compromise your game designers had to make.

For example, the BMW801D2 as installed on the FW190A8 has a simple manifold pressure increase to achieve Erhohte Notleistung. It is not an ADI system such as water injection. However rather than redesign the manifold pressure regulator, BMW installed a valve, venturi, and line attached to the engines vacuum system that pilot operates it by pulling a lever. The valve relieves the pressure on the static side of the diaphragm fooling the regulator into thinking the static pressure is lower. It reacts by increasing the manifold pressure on the other side of the diaphragm.


I also think pushing the engine over 100% would quickly overheat the engine

100% in aircraft engines is not maximum power capability; it is the maximum power the engine can produce without any operating restrictions.

Aircraft engines routinely operate over 100% capacity because of the required margins required for flight are narrow.

The ratings beyond maximum continuous have restrictions placed upon them based on the details of the particular installation.

All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Crump, I guess my assumptions were incorrect. Knowledge is an addiction and the more I understand the more I want to know!
Ive been facinated and studied WWII aviation since the early eighties and im learning that alot of learning involves unlearning incorrect facts! I can remember the days when the P-51 was the fastest Piston engined fighter of WWII and that was common knowledge, Unfortunately no matter how many sources sited it, It turned out to be false!

Bremspropeller
07-17-2009, 02:59 AM
Within the game the 100% power setting represents take-off power.

110% represents Start-/ Notleistung.

100% represents Steig-/ Dauerleistung.


EDIT: Crumpp beat me to it...

No41Sqn_Banks
07-17-2009, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Within the game the 100% power setting represents take-off power.

110% represents Start-/ Notleistung.

100% represents Steig-/ Dauerleistung.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It depends on the aeroplane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bremspropeller
07-17-2009, 03:37 AM
Stimmt http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I don't fly Spits that often, though http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Kettenhunde
07-17-2009, 07:41 AM
Knowledge is an addiction and the more I understand the more I want to know!
Ive been facinated and studied WWII aviation since the early eighties and im learning that alot of learning involves unlearning incorrect facts!

You are welcome! We are all learning and have much common ground here.


110% represents Start-/ Notleistung.

100% represents Steig-/ Dauerleistung.


I think you are right, Bremspropeller.

I thought it was pretty neat that IL2 even models excess capacity common to aircraft engines.

All the best,

Crumpp

TS_Sancho
07-17-2009, 11:15 AM
This should clear it up, different application same theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...NFhY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY&feature=related)

Xiolablu3
07-18-2009, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
This should clear it up, different application same theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...NFhY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY&feature=related)

So surprised when I learned these guys were American...their working class English accent is just perfect, even to us over here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Trefle
07-18-2009, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
This should clear it up, different application same theory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...NFhY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY&feature=related)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Monty_Thrud
07-18-2009, 09:36 AM
HEHEHE!...you guys are kwazy to the power of 11 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Viper2005_
07-18-2009, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> WEP as I understand it is WAR Emergency Power, so How can you have 110% and WEP!?

Can of worms as this is a very misunderstood subject.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Indeed.


Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
For example, the Merlin 66 100% capacity is found at +7lbs boost. At +25lbs we are working well over 10% the capacity of the engine for continuous operations. At over 3 times the manifold pressure I would hazard a guess that we are bumping up well over 160% of the motors capacity or higher.

British WWII engines were rated in psi gauge, not psi absolute.

0 psi gauge = 14.7 psi absolute = 29.92"Hg

So +25 psi boost = 39.7 psi absolute, whilst +7 psi boost = 21.7 psi absolute.

39.7/21.7 = 1.83.

You can cross check this by looking at the ratings of the V-1650 in American service, which were approximately the same but rounded to give a nice figure in "Hg.

Kettenhunde
07-18-2009, 11:23 AM
British WWII engines were rated in psi gauge, not psi absolute.

I know that. It is three times indicated pressure.

Have you ever looked at a standard BMEP chart for what it takes to develop 2050 hp @ 3000rpm from 1649 in^3? The BMEP is off the chart at around ~300.

All the best,

Crumpp