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Enofinu
12-27-2004, 01:33 PM
Make every plane suffer the same from wing hits.
just compare FW190 and lets say P-47, hit both on wing, FW with 20mm cannon and P-47 with 30mm cannon, FW has great tendency to turn by it self at damaged wing side while P47 has none. would it be hard to make it much more realistic and not so UNFAIR. it truly feels unfair to fly those planes which suffers it most. Same with 109:s, one hit and ur in trouble while with some others fly like nothin. you know, it really gets on some virtual pilots nerves.
please Fix it..

Enofinu
12-27-2004, 01:33 PM
Make every plane suffer the same from wing hits.
just compare FW190 and lets say P-47, hit both on wing, FW with 20mm cannon and P-47 with 30mm cannon, FW has great tendency to turn by it self at damaged wing side while P47 has none. would it be hard to make it much more realistic and not so UNFAIR. it truly feels unfair to fly those planes which suffers it most. Same with 109:s, one hit and ur in trouble while with some others fly like nothin. you know, it really gets on some virtual pilots nerves.
please Fix it..

RAF74_Buzzsaw
12-27-2004, 01:43 PM
Another luftwhine

Enofinu
12-27-2004, 01:45 PM
whats ur problem D***head?

RAF74_Buzzsaw
12-27-2004, 01:55 PM
Provide some factual research and data, or you are just another complainer who wants his favourite plane improved.

Daiichidoku
12-27-2004, 02:00 PM
I have experienced from no effect to a heavy drag on th eside of wing hit in all types...its all random, just as it should be...

Whats far more important is the stupid uncontrolable roll as if the wing has been lost, when it hasnt, and this happens in single engined and multi engine types...plz check the link fo rmy thread on this subject

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=3521094642

and

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=2161037942

Enofinu
12-27-2004, 03:02 PM
have you tried it urself Buzzav?? i bet not.

faustnik
12-27-2004, 03:12 PM
Enofinu,

Buzzsaw is right. You're not helping our cause here. There are issues with the Fw190 DM and certainly issues with the Mg151, but, posting complaints with nothing to back them up is not productive.

CKY_86
12-27-2004, 03:35 PM
not just d9, 109, spits, 110, hurrie i think its good becos i can acctully imagene a spit dragging in the direction of damage on wing

WWMaxGunz
12-27-2004, 03:46 PM
Since the graphics do not tell you of the actual damage state of the wing or controls,
what are you basing your assessment on? Really, you are shooting in the dark on this.
What can you do to show that P-47's don't get drag on a damaged wing side? Also I do
not see you comparing wingloading or wing shapes in this but it would be no help either
one since --graphics do not show the actual damage--.
Really, you need to bring a LOT MORE than what you have to make the point you want to.
And by a lot more, that is not mean spending more time in DF and/or getting a lot more
friends to agree and post, which is only a lot more politics instead of actual evidence.
So, what you do now?

Fehler
12-27-2004, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enofinu:
Make every plane suffer the same from wing hits.
just compare FW190 and lets say P-47, hit both on wing, FW with 20mm cannon and P-47 with 30mm cannon, FW has great tendency to turn by it self at damaged wing side while P47 has none. would it be hard to make it much more realistic and not so UNFAIR. it truly feels unfair to fly those planes which suffers it most. Same with 109:s, one hit and ur in trouble while with some others fly like nothin. you know, it really gets on some virtual pilots nerves.
please Fix it.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How dare you say that something could ever be improved in a German plane? Now, an American plane and you can whine it to death! But never come here again and say something is wrong with a Tank or Messerschmitt creation!

Sheesh... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fehler
12-27-2004, 04:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw:
Another luftwhine <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I had a dollar for every American whine and you had a dollar for every "Luftwhine", I would be a MUCH richer man!

faustnik
12-27-2004, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Since the graphics do not tell you of the actual damage state of the wing or controls,
what are you basing your assessment on? Really, you are shooting in the dark on this.
What can you do to show that P-47's don't get drag on a damaged wing side? Also I do
not see you comparing wingloading or wing shapes in this but it would be no help either
one since --graphics do not show the actual damage--.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neal is 100% right. How could you ever prove it? All you could do is show a track in arcade mode where a couple .50 rounds hit the wing and you loose a large amount of lift in that wing. You can't prove what damage was actually done. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

crazyivan1970
12-27-2004, 04:45 PM
You guys want to get serious and raise some interesting discussion... or you will continue to throw things at each other? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Cause if you wont, i`ll lock it in the heartbeat

p1ngu666
12-27-2004, 05:55 PM
ivan, why whas my thread locked?

try a yak with wing hits, its AWFUL.

a p47 can trim the damage out too.

109 is also much tougher than it was before

VW-IceFire
12-27-2004, 05:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enofinu:
Make every plane suffer the same from wing hits.
just compare FW190 and lets say P-47, hit both on wing, FW with 20mm cannon and P-47 with 30mm cannon, FW has great tendency to turn by it self at damaged wing side while P47 has none. would it be hard to make it much more realistic and not so UNFAIR. it truly feels unfair to fly those planes which suffers it most. Same with 109:s, one hit and ur in trouble while with some others fly like nothin. you know, it really gets on some virtual pilots nerves.
please Fix it.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The problems the FW190 experiences with wing hits are the same or worse on the Yak-7, Yak-9, and Yak-1 versions (I suspect on the Yak-3 too but I haven't flown it). I'm a FW190 flyer alot...I KNOW what it feels like. The P-47 does have much larger wings than the FW190 so thats probably a factor too...at least for the game.

I think there's a thing about the FW190...it seems like a big heavy fighter/interceptor. In the same league as the P-47...except that its actually VERY small. Its about the same size as the Bf-109 or the Mustang. Its not as big as the Typhoon, the Thunderbolt, the P-39 or any of these. Its more the size of a Yak than it is a P-47. So the small size, the small wings, and the great wingloading must give some disadvantage...in turn we know, maybe in damage effect too.

crazyivan1970
12-27-2004, 06:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
ivan, why whas my thread locked?

try a yak with wing hits, its AWFUL.

a p47 can trim the damage out too.

109 is also much tougher than it was before <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm, start a new one? Lets see... your thread states.. missing gun on what http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Corsair? And somehow doesn`t attach to the content.. so.. please be my guest http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Start a new one

p1ngu666
12-27-2004, 06:58 PM
could u just edit the title back to zero 5b?

i changed it to corsair to get ppl in http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

CV8_Dudeness
12-27-2004, 10:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
If I had a dollar for every American whine and you had a dollar for every "Luftwhine", I would be a _MUCH_ richer man! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WORD !

BBB_Hyperion
12-28-2004, 04:18 AM
The speculations about the dm and effects cant be confirmend there can only be indications.

The Damage shown is only a state represented it doesnt tell if its 99.9 % destroyed or 1 % same texture for hits of this state.

With detailed information of the planedamage it would be possible to calculate lift loss etc.

But when this information would be available it would reveal more problems of the dm that cant be fixed course of the simplifications of the il2 engine.

The Liftproblem for wingdamage even with little hits can be found on the fw series . Is there maybe another Plane who suffers so much topspeed and stability from hits ?
The FW Series was to replace the ju87 would that have been the case when the plane couldnt resist small amounts of hits without losing the flight performance ?

As it is now once damaged in the fuselage backpart you can fly away laughing 80 % of the time what is just the opposite of the wingdrop problem little hits superstructure gone and you can limp home not combat worthy the aircraft anymore. I though this problems would disappear with a CDM but somehow its almost the same in this issue. Random events .)

IMHO
20 mm about 5 rounds needed to make a figther plane useless irl for example.
1 mk108 round for a fighter
3 s burst of 50s (when i remember right)

Most guns are just too weak in PF that includes 50s, mg151/20, etc

But in different ways 50s are weak cause they just have an area effect on the triggered surface. Mg151/20 are weak cause no deforming or ripping of skin parts is part of the damagemodel , concentrated hits on a spot does not
have the effect of destabilize the airframe .

I have high hopes for BoB that we will have a more complex dm on planes with bending metal under stress and every strives damage aswell and turbulences from wing holes are considered at the right place and the right ammount.Even going to break under too much stress special for damaged components.

Jettexas
12-28-2004, 05:14 PM
""Buzzsaw is right. You're not helping our cause here.""


..there it is....


Lobby til you can win.

S!
Jett

Fehler
12-28-2004, 07:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Faust also said

There are issues with the Fw190 DM and certainly issues with the Mg151, but, posting complaints with nothing to back them up is not productive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OUR CAUSE is to try and get things as realistic as possible, no matter what type of aircraft, or nationality of origin.

That's what Faustnik stands for.

Jettexas
12-28-2004, 09:31 PM
Good Points fehler,
Perhaps I did misread the intent of the collective "our".
I hope so.
It is unclear since only the FW190 DM and the Mg151 are mentioned in the "our cause"reply.

The original poster(or perhaps persona) is a notorious ranter.
Lie down with dogs get up with fleas.


If Im misreading the quote then, good on ya and smiles all around.

S!
Jettexas
"Cut and Paste Pixel Pirate...yaaar"

HayateAce
12-28-2004, 11:54 PM
IceFire to answer a small part of your post:

Yes, the Yak3 suffers badly from light hits to the wing. I suppose this one would be hard to get to the bottom of. What are we talking, factors of wing size, thickness, loading and perhaps construction? I don't think FB is sophisticated enough to calculate all those, but perhaps Oleg and crew do some calculations and then assign simple or even averaged numbers as a result.

I know the simulated wing drag/dip tends to behave a bit strangely. Land an a/c with a heavily damaged wing and you will have to fight the wing dip even with wheels down and on rollout at 20kph. THe plane just keeps on dipping until you finally come to a halt. Like a little gremlin out on the wing hopping up and down.

Fehler
12-29-2004, 02:10 AM
Jettex, my appologies sir. I am tired of the us vs. them mentality here at times, and I mistook you for someone that propagates that sort of thing. Again, my appologies and I will go edit my post.

Smiles all around!

IIJG69_Kartofe
12-29-2004, 03:25 AM
I will respond as a simmer, not a LW simmer.

For me there is nothing annormal with the catastrophic handling of the 190 when he has taken damages in the wing.
On a plane with that roll rate, holes in a wing MUST become a serious handling problem, IMO it's logical.

Unnatural orifices in a plane are not there to help the pilot! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fehler
12-29-2004, 06:57 AM
It gets quite challenging trying to land a FW-190 with some wing damage.

In other aircraft, you can trim the plane enough to make landings a little easier.

Which calls to mind a question: Why on earth did Willie and Kurt forget to put aileron and rudder trim in the Bf109 and FW-190 respectively? Want to talk about a design flaw, there you have it. With all the innovations they created, simple trim for all rotational axis should have been important to them, but it was not.

Anyone have inside information why this was never done for these aircraft?

Copperhead310th
12-30-2004, 12:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw:
Another luftwhine <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I had a dollar for every American whine and you had a dollar for every "Luftwhine", I would be a _MUCH_ richer man! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt that. If you count back 3 1/2 years.....
i'm sure it's be the other way around. after all the LW crowd started the whole whining trend to begin with. FACT&gt; http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Obviously this clown ain't been in a Jug too often latly. Big cannon hits will at times flip you compleatly out of whack...and in some cases induce stalls.

WUAF_Badsight
12-30-2004, 01:01 AM
it does in all planes now Copper

seriously , you got to stop being so one eyed & narrow minded about this game & try all planes

youd see its a new , universal change added in 3.02

Fehler
12-30-2004, 02:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw:
Another luftwhine <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I had a dollar for every American whine and you had a dollar for every "Luftwhine", I would be a _MUCH_ richer man! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt that. If you count back 3 1/2 years.....
i'm sure it's be the other way around. after all the LW crowd started the whole whining trend to begin with. FACT&gt; http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Obviously this clown ain't been in a Jug too often latly. Big cannon hits will at times flip you compleatly out of whack...and in some cases induce stalls. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Since US planes have only been in the game for 1/2 of that time, I would agree that complaints/suggestions about aircraft were probably limited to the types of planes that were in the game. There probably was not many P-51 or .50 cal whines back in the day when they hadn't been introduced into the game yet. But by far the Volume of whining in this sim comes from the US fan base. Hell your whining alone might equal 25% of the total number of "Luftwhines" ever posted here. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

2. Read what you typed Nickelhead... Big cannon hits... Umm, think there is a difference between a one half inch diameter bullet, designed to pierce light armor, screaming through a thin sheet of aluminum and a 30mm explosive round that was designed to pierce then explode causing deformations in structure and skin failure? Perhaps that is why they ended up having to put eight of those BB guns on the Jug to make them effective, whatcha think?

3. Well, at least you spelled clown correctly. That is a leap in the right direction for you.

Don't get me wrong Copperhead, you are still my bro... As a matter of fact, you are one of my favorite targets to shoot at! Just dont be a hater... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you read my post, I never mentioned the P-47 and did not mention anything about what wing damage does to it's flying characteristics. I merely stated that with trim, you can negate some of the challenge landing these damaged aircraft, that is "IF" your plane type has trim... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

See you in the skies at WC... I will be the one in your P-47 mirror... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mave_FI
12-30-2004, 02:32 AM
Hihihi... .50 a BB-gun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Well, it's small compared to 30mm but...
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/mave/ammunition.jpg
From left to right: 9x19, 7.62x39, .308 and .50BMG

Fehler
12-30-2004, 03:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mave_FI:
Hihihi... .50 a BB-gun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Well, it's small compared to 30mm but...
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/mave/ammunition.jpg
From left to right: 9x19, 7.62x39, .308 and .50BMG <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, I know.. I was just being a little dramatic to "Lernt him sumptin" &lt;- That's redneck for "Teach him a few things."

Diablo310th
12-30-2004, 08:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
See you in the skies at WC... I will be the one in your P-47 mirror... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not till you get past me ...LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

faustnik
12-30-2004, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:


Copperhead.... Just dont be a hater...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There you go. That's all we ask. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

clint-ruin
12-30-2004, 10:15 AM
If copperhead can't be a playa hater then he's gonna hate the game. Surely?

Negro, por favor!