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VW-IceFire
05-10-2005, 03:24 PM
I'll make this short.

Lots of people blame the game, the FM, Oleg, phases of the moon, the sandwich they ate at lunch, and just about everything else they can. Yet...some of these people have not stopped to consider that they maybe don't know how to fly yet.

I'm finally feeling comfortable as a virutal combat pilot after 2 and a half years of flying in various scenarios. Only now do I feel like I have some real concept of SI and ACM - but only in some planes. I still need to learn others.

And yet I just got an earful on how American planes suck following an earful on how German planes suck. I sense a theme here. I'm about ready to hear another set of earfuls on how Japanese, British, French, Finnish, and Russian planes suck too. I'm sure it will happen...give it time!

This game isn't perfect...and I have gripes. But maybe some people need to learn howto fly first.

If it took me 2.5 years...then honestly how are 3 weeks with the game going to do it? Eh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

crazyivan1970
05-10-2005, 03:27 PM
Best post i`v seen here in days...

Cheers!

BuzzU
05-10-2005, 03:42 PM
Maybe you're a slow learner.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Atomic_Marten
05-10-2005, 03:54 PM
That is so true. I play this game from Demo days, and I still can't say I know everything about it. Most likely will never do.

But VW, you are so right.

Thing is I know what to expect and I tend not to whine when I get shot down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Also I think that most of the 'whiners' are people who were playing this game for rather short time.

I still remember the times when I have, during the gameplay, said gee this is a bug - this is not possible - how was that guy end up on my tail, his fighter is overmodelled in this/that area - ... etc. etc.

Sometimes in early online days, when I get shot down by somebody after good dogfight, I have choose his airplane (because I have immediately start to admire the fighter's attributes). And how that went for me? I literally get mauled because I have employed bad tactic for that fighter..

After some time I figured that my bad play/tactic 'provide' me inferior position during the dogfight.

There are some things in this game that can be qualified as a bugs, but you will most likely NEVER saw these to be whined on.(especially on hyperlobby)

Bottom line is -- people *must* know what can they expect from their ride, and what are the best tactic to employ with it. 90% whines simply are results of ignorance/unknowledge.

Von_Zero
05-10-2005, 04:12 PM
Nice post IceFire http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Honestly i'm tired of periodically seeing people here (or on other boards), coming and shouting and using all kind of arguments we already heard hundreds of times ("how can this plane be that bad, we won the war in it", "hey thos are UFO's, cuz they can outturn my P-47", etc), just to spill their anger and find an excuse for their incapacity to understand some simple concepts... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
This game ain't no shooter, you just don't assign WASD, and then you're ready to go and show the others your skill. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

PBNA-Boosher
05-10-2005, 04:25 PM
I've also been here since the demo, and it's been a rough ride. Learning each new FM of my planes hasn't been easy, but I've attached to it. After the time us ol' IL2 vets have put into this game, most of us barely can say we've "mastered" the original plane-set.

Experience is earned by the amount of time you spend doing something, not by how much you claim you know.

BBB_Hyperion
05-10-2005, 04:31 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif i saw it life .)

Hunde_3.JG51
05-10-2005, 07:55 PM
This is the first thread I have ever seen that starts with someone saying "learn to fly" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

And I still don't understand the uber-Spitfire thing. Yes it has some possible issues with best climb speed and e-retention but they are still target drones online.

Pirschjaeger
05-10-2005, 08:23 PM
Too many players are undermoddelled. An angel told me God is working on a patch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

You'll see in 2 weeks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz Franzen

Pirschjaeger
05-10-2005, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
This is the first thread I have ever seen that starts with someone saying "learn to fly" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

And I still don't understand the uber-Spitfire thing. Yes it has some possible issues with best climb speed and e-retention but they are still target drones online.

When the pilot is "unter" all planes are "uber". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

Badsight.
05-10-2005, 09:46 PM
& all too often people take what happens in the middle of a DF to mean or prove something about plane performance

VW-IceFire
05-10-2005, 09:54 PM
I'm glad some people agree with me! I sort of wrote this to vent a little. I was getting pissed off with all the problems online...

I think I'm going to start telling the pilots that they are undermodeled. That might be a good turning of the tables...good one guys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pirschjaeger
05-10-2005, 10:39 PM
I like shooting down Spits when I fly the 109. I also like shooting down 109's when I fly the Spit.

Last year I recommended to our squadron we each choose 2 planes from the Axis and 2 planes from the Allies and become used to them.

I chose the 109g2, Fw190a4, ealiest Spit, and the earliest La.

I was tired of joining our DF server and flying in a 109 free-for-all. Their argument was "It's good training". I asked if the LW trained to fight 109's? No reply, no change.

I think this happens a lot in many servers and squadrons. It takes a long time to get used to one plane but it's more than worth it in the end when you get used to 2 of each side.

When I fly the 109 I know how to kill the Spits, when I fly the Spit, I know how to kill the 109. Simple logic me thinks, nothing "uber" there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

LuckyBoy1
05-10-2005, 11:09 PM
But, but, but, but I wanna whine that the other guy was cheating... that the other guy's plane is more Uber... that I can't force my level of eye candy on him... that the sky is too blue at higher altitudes!

Pirschjaeger
05-10-2005, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by LuckyBoy1:
But, but, but, but I wanna whine that the other guy was cheating...

Yes, I hate those A.I. too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

TX-Gunslinger
05-10-2005, 11:45 PM
S~ IceFire. Me too

I'll be the first to admit that, I'm still learning and I don't know everything. The vast majority of "garment rending" and "gnashing of teeth" is, as you infer, a song of failure.

On the other hand, there does exist a class of A/C that I do believe is a bit overmodeled in some areas. I won't mention those A/C here, as some of my friends do fly them, and honestly, I don't want to hurt their feelings, nor insult their pride.

Does that mean when I screw up it's anyone else's fault but mine? Absolutely not. I reconstruct every match, many online sorties and 99 out of 100 times, there was always something that I should'nt have done, or could have done better.

The greatest problem, wrt to your post that I see, is that some people who come to these boards and participate in the sim have no manners, civility nor sense of fair play.

If those traits, (civility, manners, fair play) were more widespread, then we could discuss our ideas, differences and agree to disagree. Instead, we get troll posts and arguments that sound like two 11 year old boys going at it.

Shame is'nt it?

Maybe one day, personal interaction on the internet will improve. Of course, I'm not holding my breath.

I love this sim and have nothing but respect for it's creators. If there are a few "too hot" A/C, fine. Their presence in the sim creates a challenge, that I intend to master.

S~

** This message was edited to ensure some sembalance of coherence **

madsarmy
05-11-2005, 01:50 AM
Nice post Ice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

The two reasons I die online are simple
1.I make a stupid mistake.
2.The other pilot is much better than me.

jugent
05-11-2005, 01:50 AM
That was the same dicotomization as to blame it on the game, to blame it on the player.
Its much more convenient to blame it on the player.
Blame yourself a******
Perhaps the truth is somewhere in between

JG54_Arnie
05-11-2005, 02:10 AM
Hmm, judging by human nature, it happens everywhere, people get their butts kicked and the only thing they dont point at when things go wrong is themselves. And strange enough, people seem to be able to get very heated up even though they are just playing a game. They (or should I say we? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) act as if our house is set on fire when we get shot down by another guy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So yeah, I agree IceFire, and in my opinion, Jugent, the answer is that the thruth leans more towards the attitude of the player than the game itself. Even more so when there are two sides whining about the other side, evens it out and that would rather be proof that its actually just fine. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
But ofcourse, the amount of whining proves nothing, zero, nothing at all.

People should chill, take other planes up for a spin than just their favourite ride. I totally agree with Franzen on that part.
Anyone whining about any plane without ever having flown it should just keep quiet and go fly it first! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Maybe this is a good thread to also address that signature floating around somewhere, about LW planes being 10 times as hard to fly or something. Because ofcourse, its nonsense. In that (none)sense some LW flyers should get off their high horse and fly some spits, la's, P-**'s online (and get shot down, its possible). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 02:10 AM
I see you point Gunslinger. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Fritz Franzen

VV_Holdenb
05-11-2005, 02:10 AM
Well put ice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
I started from demo days and learnt to
take off on obscure servers with a lot
of help from on-line "friends". Well I can
at least I can land occasionally now!
Having to "learn" to fly is what makes this
game sooo good.

WTE_Ibis
05-11-2005, 02:17 AM
Then why does his plane outclimb mine and out accelerate mine and out turn mine and out dive mine and why does mine spin and crash for no reason,there has to be cheating cause when I get in his plane WTF the same thing happens.You guys don't know what you're talk'n about it's totally porked. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 02:37 AM
Btw, my 109 commonly out climbs other 109's. That doesn't mean my 109 is better than the other guy's but simply I am controlling it more consistantly. Most guyz over-climb forcing them to level out to regain speed then climb again. This slows your rate of climb.

This is the case with a few planes I fly. This is an example of pilot skill, not the capability of the plane. But, if you out-climb a pilot that doesn't know how to climb they always assume the enemy plane is "uber".

I was just chatting on MSN with JG/54 Arnie and he had a great suggestion. He says the whiners should go one on one with the same planes, the opposing pilot being one who doesn't whine.

Then they can whine about the other pilot being "uber" as they are spawning. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I have found all the planes have their strengths and their weaknesses. I tend to fly earlier models because I want to improve my skills. Their is no better feeling than going 1 vs 1 in an F4 and continuously shooting down a K4.

IMHO, if you whine about your plane, you are depending too much on it, and not enough on yourself.

Fritz Franzen

F19_Olli72
05-11-2005, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
Anyone whining about any plane without ever having flown it should just keep quiet and go fly it first! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Right on!

Interestingly enough, noone has accepted my 'bomber challange' in the "Bombers have got to be overmodelled" thread. I wonder why http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Yet the AI-ubergunner myth is widely spread on this board.

Burbage1966
05-11-2005, 03:58 AM
I can't fly for sodding toffee yet. Every time I go online I get trashed. I once got some guy in a head-on, my only kill, which just about says it all. Do you hear me yapping?

It's a game and a very complex one. I don't get as much time as I'd like to practice, so it's going to take me a while. I'll only feel that I can complain about the game when I can fly anywhere, shoot down all the enemies, and never get shot down myself. And I can't see that ever happening ever.

But I love it.

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 04:41 AM
When I first started playing IL-2 I'd go against 16 enemy AI's with my single 109E3. I could beat them everytime. Then I tried online thinking I'll clean house. Ha ha ha. Most embarrassing months from there on.

I first blamed my pc, then my internet, but could never blame the flight models since all models were kicking my but. One good way I learnt to find my flaws was to make tracks and study them, but you'll need confidence for this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I learned a lot this way.

Fritz Franzen

Flakenstien
05-11-2005, 05:12 AM
I agree 100% that and you never "master" any aircraft, it is a constent learning process.
When I first started flying the P38 in IL2 I was concerned about the "tourque" issue, just to find after learning more about the plane that there is no issue, 99% it is becasue both your engines are running different RPM, (if you start both at once you'll being doing just that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

As for all the "out climbing" complaints, again boils down to not knowing how to fly.
Learn about your aircraft!!! Some have the ability to pull a vertical climb at a different angle of attack while others need a slighter angle of attack for a maximum climb, know your angles for climbing and you might just find that you can outclimb the best, in a dogfight if you just want to go vertical in something that can't do it, then don't blame over modeling of the other aircraft. You need to LEARN the aircraft your flying in!
This is what I love about this sim, the fact that each and every aircraft have such a good flight model, each one is a new learning experiance, and if you took more time researching and learning how to fly, the basics of aerodynamics, etc not only will it make your sim time more rewarding and educational but will make you a better pilot in the long run.
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER

You also must remeber all those stats that everyone post from "pilots manuals" are just that, stats and recommendations, mainly written by test pilots, in a no combat situation, no armorment, etc. So many variables to consider that effect how a aircraft flies.
But almost all complaints and whines can be blamed plainly on pilot error or lack of knowledge http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ps. How about the ones that complain that thier aircraft doesn't reach the maxium speed of the real life version? HMMM I don't know? Could that full load out have something to do with it??

Or the "Corsair sucks it can't even take off from a carrier"!!!
Again could it have something to do with the fact that you have the equivelent of another Corsair attached to the belly?

Learn your aircraft and when you know what your talking about then feel free to come and post your concern http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bearcat99
05-11-2005, 06:03 AM
Couldnt agree more IF.

Lucius_Esox
05-11-2005, 06:31 AM
Very well said Icefire,
I have played the game constantly since October 2001 (when it first came out anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) I made my first serious venture online when I got b/band just before Christmas. Man was the learning curve steep http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Splattered I think is the correct term http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Fortunately at 47 my ego is just about under control now (just lol). Also I am only JUST begining to understand ACM, let alone implement them properly! Ok I'm probably a slow learner but I fly mainley a so called "uber" plane the Spit.

For sure against pilots who do not fly their plane "skillfully" a Spit could seem uber, but against someone who knows what they are doing,,,,believe me it's not.

Have a look at who is the top scorer on Warclouds and see what he flies them tell me it's the plane,,,, now that is skill!!

S! to that man.

blazer-glory
05-11-2005, 12:22 PM
Its soo comforting to read some of these postings here. Ive only been playing this for about 2 weeks and was becoming quite frustrated at my lack of ability and was literally going to stop. I could'nt land, I'd turn to hard and crash. At least now I know that if I stick with it I might actually improve. If I don't,its gotta be the games physics SURELY!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Chadburn
05-11-2005, 12:36 PM
The worst thing about threads like the two on the spit and the 109 is that they fuel the general decline of comradery that used to typify online flying. There are still plenty of people on-line with great attitiudes, but I've noticed a marked increase in poor sportsmanship.

For some, it's easier to insult the other player's ability by claiming the plane they're in is over-modelled rather than acknowledge one's own lack of skills.

Pirschjaeger
05-11-2005, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by blazer-glory:
Its soo comforting to read some of these postings here. Ive only been playing this for about 2 weeks and was becoming quite frustrated at my lack of ability and was literally going to stop. I could'nt land, I'd turn to hard and crash. At least now I know that if I stick with it I might actually improve. If I don't,its gotta be the games physics SURELY!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Stick with it Blazer. Record some tracks and watch them to find your mistakes. One thing that worked well for me was going one on one with some much better than myself. I'd get them to record the track and send it to me. You won't believe what you see from your enemy's cockpit. You will see mistakes that you cannot see from your own plane.

Another thing you can do is join a squadron. Tell them right away you are new and wanna learn. Squadrons usually have set times for training by their aces. Invaluable information there.

Don't give up and just kep flying. When you are not flying think about it. I find this helps me to improve my skills. My first time online(2.5 years ago) was totally embarrassing and I felt it was impossible to ever shoot plane down. The last time I was playing (about 8 months ago) I was always getting back to base, guns empty, and 2-4 kills. It's a long road to get good but the ride is worthwhile. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

Tallyho1961
05-11-2005, 12:59 PM
If it was an easy sim, it wouldn't be much fun, or an accurate simulation, would it?

I started flying IL2 seriously - offline - last September. By February I felt ready to go online and have been doing so on a fairly regular basis ever since.

To-date I have probaby been shot down 15-20 times for every kill I've made and those are seldom a result of spectacular piloting on my part, more like a hard slog and a lucky shot, or a less-experiended pilot makes a mistake right in front of me.

I will say this: If I could shoot with any degree of accuracy that ratio would be more like 12/1 and I'd be more than happy with that at this point.

The toughness is what makes IL2 great and I do not believe in über-osity of any sort other than the über-osity that comes with being a smart, experienced pilot.

I hope to get there one day myself. In the meantime, however, I'm having a ball http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

VW-IceFire
05-11-2005, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by blazer-glory:
Its soo comforting to read some of these postings here. Ive only been playing this for about 2 weeks and was becoming quite frustrated at my lack of ability and was literally going to stop. I could'nt land, I'd turn to hard and crash. At least now I know that if I stick with it I might actually improve. If I don't,its gotta be the games physics SURELY!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
You're catching on already http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I spent months with the IL-2 Demo before I went down and put some cash on Forgotten Battles 1.0. And after a while I took it online...and I remember my first dogfight. I got whupped...over and over really. I caught on and killed some planes but it took me a while...and even then, I was doing all the noobish things http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But I can't ever recall seriously blaming the plane for a mistake that I made. I do believe that there are some planes that are modeled better and some that aren't upto the same standards of modeling but nothings quite perfect either...so I have to learn to operate within my means. Which is why I've taken it apon myself to fly the hardest to fly or most challenging aircraft...the FW190, the P-47 (especially back in 1.0 and 1.1), and the P-38 are all favorites of mine. I keep flying different planes, learning new things...

In a few years, I may be able to try and work for a perfect record in 10-15 kills or something. Or maybe not http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

blazer-glory
05-11-2005, 02:28 PM
Yeah,one thing about a challenging game,of any sort, is when you actually achieve something. When I finally managed to land,still in one piece,well minus a few wings,I was SOOO pleased with myself!!!

NorrisMcWhirter
05-11-2005, 02:38 PM
Of course, the other side of the coin is that some players get shot down/don't make it home now for reasons they didn't before.

For example, not so long ago, FW190 pilots had to go home when they had a short spray of fire at their plane because the gunsight fell off rendering their combat time over.

Nowadays, the gunsight NEVER falls off but they have to go home because of the fuel leak problem which was never there before...or they die with easy PKs.

Now, I'm not suggesting that the 190 should be the toughest thing around etc but people DO have cause to air their views when this game changes with almost every patch. In that respect, it makes the idea of the game being historically correct almost laughable...unless it was getting better each time but it isn't.

Like the en-masse DF server Keystone Cop chases, where you have 5 planes chasing 1 and crashing into each other etc, you sometimes have the same mentality with posts on the forum where...after a patch, the bidet brigade all run together, trunceons in hand, proclaiming it's the best thing since sliced bread because of xyz then, after another patch, they all change direction en masse and proclaim it's the best thing since sliced bread not because of xyz but because of abc.

My biggest complaint about this game is that new planes and problems are introduced with almost every patch (some, of course, should be 'immediately available but have not appeared 6 months later http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) whereas age old issues, such as the ridiculous DM of certain VVS aircraft remains unresolved.

I think THAT is a valid thing to complain about..online or otherwise.

Cheers,
Norris

Da_Godfatha
05-11-2005, 02:47 PM
This has to be the most BS post I have read in a while.

Sorry dude, but this game has too many problems.
You can start from the fantasy spins to the bumpy-jumpy ground handling and go on and on. No, to blame it on the players is very easy and IMO, very lame. Yes, I know the game is not perfect,and never will be. Some planes are a dream to fly, some planes are UFO`s, and some are down right dogs. Why do you think you find the same old lame late war planes on almost (I said almost) all servers. I know some REAL life pilots who all say the same, SOME of the FM`s are just...how to say it....BS!

I really like this game, and I think it has a potential that is really untapped. I just think it has been dropped (ie, the LONG awaited patch) by the devs. It really makes no sense to have every version of the LaGG, and to forget other interesting planes.

I am not a Fanboi, and I am not against 1C and Maddox games. I just call it like I see.

I mean no offense to you IceFire or anyone else.

Armhunter
05-11-2005, 03:16 PM
Da_Godfatha

How about they redo the game and only give us 5 planes that are perfectly correct. But we only get 5 planes to choose from??? I think that is lame..

The game is fine for me...

NorrisMcWhirter
05-11-2005, 03:20 PM
You can make up a number of planes to support your argument but godfatha has a point (and I don't think I've agreed with anything they've said before!)

As anyone will know who has been to a fast food restaurant or a pub chain that serves 'big plate' dinners, quantity is not better than quality.

A compromise would be nice but we've not had that.

Cheers,
Norris

Armhunter
05-11-2005, 03:58 PM
Now that I agree with.....

But still, lets say there was never any planes in the world and this was supposed to be a futuristic game...
we would not know the difference..

Its like people complaining about a Hollywood movie when it bends the historic truth to make people happy. Sure if you was there at the time, then your going to get ticked... but if not, then you would not even know the difference...

Sorry to say... 99% of us will never fly a real plane..
this is as close as you will get.. either like it or dont..

crazyivan1970
05-11-2005, 04:05 PM
I have a question to Father and Norris... have any of you flown a real plane?

No, IL-2 series is not perfect, nothing is. Yes i said it. But this is not what Ice is trying to say. Re-read his post again.

JamesBlonde888
05-11-2005, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I'll make this short.

Lots of people blame the game, the FM, Oleg, phases of the moon, the sandwich they ate at lunch, and just about everything else they can. Yet...some of these people have not stopped to consider that they maybe don't know how to fly yet.

I'm finally feeling comfortable as a virutal combat pilot after 2 and a half years of flying in various scenarios. Only now do I feel like I have some real concept of SI and ACM - but only in some planes. I still need to learn others.

And yet I just got an earful on how American planes suck following an earful on how German planes suck. I sense a theme here. I'm about ready to hear another set of earfuls on how Japanese, British, French, Finnish, and Russian planes suck too. I'm sure it will happen...give it time!

This game isn't perfect...and I have gripes. But maybe some people need to learn howto fly first.

If it took me 2.5 years...then honestly how are 3 weeks with the game going to do it? Eh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Good post, as a fighter pilot (real or virtual) you have to work with the tools you are given.

NorrisMcWhirter
05-11-2005, 04:14 PM
I don't have a major problem with 'bending the truth' because what actually happened at any particular time is often subjective. However, I went to the cinema last night and watched 'Downfall' which I thought was a very thought-provoking and important film because it simply portrayed the last days in the bunker without too many stereotypes/embellishments as we've seen all too many times before. Suppose someone would have 'bent the truth' with that and made out that Hitler wasn't such a bad guy after all and that he was really sorry about the final solution and that he was a little misunderstood. i.e. bending the truth can often be a very dangerous thing and the thing I admired about that film was that it left it up to YOU to decide how you felt about the situation.

I have actually flown a real plane but you'd be better to say that 99% of us will never fly a WW2 plane either in combat, anger or otherwise. (have you, Ivan? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) That's why godfatha makes an important point because when Il-2 first came out, real pilots were shooting off in their pants about how realistic it was; I've not seen any endorsements for PF or FB in a long time. And yes, they may well not have flown a WW2 aircraft, either, but they may have many hours in the air (more than me, for sure).

But I digress. Unfortunately, this game isn't set in the future but in the past and this fact automatically opens it to scrutiny against records of performance etc. You'd be better suggesting that it was a good game within the limits of current PC limitations (Oleg's old fallback) and, in that respect, it is. Like I've said before, when Il-2 first came out I thought it was the bees knees and that it must be the most accurate simulation available....a lot of time has passed since then and I think the most important thing is that I stopped considering this game as a simulation a small time after FB came out.

I think Ivan misunderstands my post because I'm not attacking what Ice has said nor do I expect Il-2 to be perfect but I do dislike the stupid changes that occur in almost every patch that are not mentioned in the readme or changelog. From the perpective of someone who writes software, changes that are undocumented (such as these) indicate that

a) someone changed one thing but it affected something else (i.e. they don't know what they are doing)
b) the developer thinks it's clever to change things that are not documented as some kind of surprise that we should be happy about
c) nothing gets tested properly

And it might be a combination of these.

Ta,
Norris

LStarosta
05-11-2005, 04:17 PM
Words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words, words.

You're all flossing a dead horse...

crazyivan1970
05-11-2005, 04:27 PM
Ok, i`ll bite.
Norris, have it ever occur to you that you or godfatha got better over the years? I still have IL-2 installed and it`s much EASIER then PF, without any doubt. Take any plane and compare the two. Yes, there are things that simplified, no doubt about that. But there is always a balance between realism and performance, never take it out of the picture. Simulation of real aircraft behavior requires alot of resources from your hardware, whether you like it or not. BOB will clearly show it and 4.0 will too, to some extent. Developer has to make tough compromises between what should be done and how it should be in reality. Needless to say that over 200 planes have to be maintained. Saying that IL-2 was all that and current sim is a step back - at least unfair.
Don`t think that Maddox wants to do it the way it is because he`s lazy or because he doesn`t care. Whatever is done - done for a reason. Think bigger Norris.

I`ll tell you this much... if BOB`s FM would be turned on in full functionality, most of the systems out there will be on their knees.
FM programming is not just couple of tables and few numbers.

Cheers!

NorrisMcWhirter
05-11-2005, 04:41 PM
You're barking up the wrong tree with me, Ivan. I've had that 'you're just better now' argument put to me by Oleg and, as I said to him, that's a load of cobblers.

I actually find Il-2 harder than PF relatively (and that's the keyword) so that completely negates the argument. Again, you'd be best to suggest that I've become USED to PF rather than Il-2 and *that* may be a valid point.

Being 'better than I was' being the reason why I think PF is pants isn't valid though...not from where I'm sitting.

You've also bitten but not countered my real argument which I have at least been consistent about...and that's quantity over quality + undocumented changes.

Where in the readme did it ever say:

"Change 1233 dd/mm/yy: The 190 gunsight no longer falls off if you fart near it but we've made it run out of fuel in 30s which it never did before.

?

My understanding (based upon comments from one of Oleg's testers) is still that the DM of the Lagg3 is 'simplified' but we've still had n planes introduced over time. You'd be best giving me a straight answer on those because I'd really like to know from an insider as to why that is the case if at all.

Here's another question - why introduce 200 planes if they are impossible to maintain? Were they expecting them to be right first time (like the Hurri in FB1.0?) or did they simply, as I suggest, go for quantity over quality and to hell with the consequences?

My complaint isn't about more complicated DMs and FMs...my complaint is about inconsistency BETWEEN FMs and DMs. OK, if it requires a step change in hardware to get the FMs more realistic then fair enough. But let's not suggest that the reason why one plane has a more complicated DM than another is because of performance limitations.

Ta,
Norris

bolillo_loco
05-11-2005, 05:28 PM
if you win its because your the better player, but if you lose its Oleg's fault. I thought this was common knowledge.

crazyivan1970
05-11-2005, 05:56 PM
No, i think i am barking on the right tree Norris. It`s a common problem around here. Ask new comers how it feels, don`t ask those who has 5000+ (shoot i probably have more) hours of stick time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Besides, don`t confuse me with TAGERT, i am not into quoting each sentence and replying to it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I commented on something i wanted to. Simple as that.

Also, why don`t you bring K4 rudder into the mix too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif FW190 gunsight was an error and was corrected. FW190 fuel leak is the same thing. I would complain it all those things were left without changes, but it gets better as it goes. Yes? No?

mole_boy
05-11-2005, 08:57 PM
its nice to see someone who is ready to admit that there not the best pilot, because no one person is. For examlpe some noob (like me) might do a certain tactic better than some ace. the point I making is we can all learn something from someone else

Atomic_Marten
05-11-2005, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by mole_boy:
its nice to see someone who is ready to admit that there not the best pilot, because no one person is. For examlpe some noob (like me) might do a certain tactic better than some ace. the point I making is we can all learn something from someone else

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

VW-IceFire
05-11-2005, 09:23 PM
Noris and I have argued quite/debated (in a very friendly way I think) on both TS and server chat and forums about the relative merits of planes and the modeling of FMs and DMs. I have my gripes...the FW190's fuel tank thing is one of them and the LaGG-3 does appear to still possess a relatively simple DM compared to others out there.

I am happy with the progression of the sim from FB1.0 to PF3.04. I didn't get IL2 from the start so I have no reference to compare. No idea.

My point here is that with most planes, even ones with bugs, the biggest source of complaints isn't the modeling...its the pilot. How many guys do we still have coming in here telling us how the FW190 sucks. I have a small list of people I know who will back me up (and Norris, I think even you may be one of them) when they and I say that its one of the best planes to fly.

On UK-D, Boehmer and I raised a storm with the two of us flying FW190A-5s. And yet I've been told so many times, even recently, that the FW190 sucks. It has some challenges (real and imagined) but I am more confident in the FW190 than I am with most planes. So what does that tell me? Even with a plane that is supposedly badly undemodeled by some quarters (and not others) I achieve my best performance - against virtually any opponent. I'm not saying I'm a star ace pilot...just that I've practiced in this plane, I know it well, and I feel confident in what it will and will not do.

Another guy was telling me how the Hellcat sucks, stalls too much, doesn't turn, etc. This tells me he doesn't fly the plane, he doesn't know its actual abilities or what its really capable of. I like the plane alot, I'm feeling more and more confident in it...it may have some issues with its FM, but its really quite good in the right hands against its historical foes. But the FM questions put aside and suddenly its a very capable fighter. I'm still learning how to fly it...it takes weeks and months to learn the ins and outs of a plane.

What am I saying? Pilots need to work on the plane they want to fly....they can't just pick one up and "be good". Most guys who are generally accomplished fly, as a rule, only a few types of planes (when they are being serious) and they know how they work, what they do, what speed they climb best at, what speed they turn best at, what manuevers to use and which ones not to use, how much to pull on the stick and when. They know the plane is going to stall before it stalls, they know which engine controls to use, etc. I'm not saying restrict yourself to just one plane...but don't tell everyone how badly Oleg modeled X plane when they have only flown it maybe a half-dozen times at the most and then only for a few minutes.

Modeling issues are one thing (and they exist)...but pilots need to take some of the responsibility on themselves. Maybe its not ALWAYS the game at fault.

I really respect the guys who fly the 109 or the Yak or whatever...when they have been flying it for 2-3 years no matter what state its in.

F16_Sulan
05-11-2005, 10:53 PM
......and thats really the beuty of this GREAT game, that one can spend years refining his skills in one plane......

I have great respect for the FW-190 guys, that´s one I´ve never gotten anything good out of. Allthough I like the P-40E and M, and the 109 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and the P-51, and the Mig-3...and the...hm, and also.......mmmm P-39.....

JG54_Arnie
05-12-2005, 12:46 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Its better to see the whole game from a bigger perspective as Ivan says. Relatively the planes are very to pretty well moddeled as you can see the historical features of most planes back in the game. You can use actually used tactics for almost every plane and be succesfull. Which is beautiful! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
That this plane is a bit too much this, and that plane a little too much that doesnt really matter, no way its ever gonna be perfect.

Also its the attitude you fly with (which is what this thread is more about?), are you constantly cursing at the game when you screw up or are you actually trying to enjoy the flying and learning from your mistakes, which inevitably have had something to do with being shot down.

Then ofcourse, its good to address problems, just in a constructive way and with valid sources. 100% of the complaining at these forums is just pointless. As it shouldnt be complaining, it should be trying to address an issue by proving why and how.

mynameisroland
05-12-2005, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Noris and I have argued quite/debated (in a very friendly way I think) on both TS and server chat and forums about the relative merits of planes and the modeling of FMs and DMs. I have my gripes...the FW190's fuel tank thing is one of them and the LaGG-3 does appear to still possess a relatively simple DM compared to others out there.

I am happy with the progression of the sim from FB1.0 to PF3.04. I didn't get IL2 from the start so I have no reference to compare. No idea.

My point here is that with most planes, even ones with bugs, the biggest source of complaints isn't the modeling...its the pilot. How many guys do we still have coming in here telling us how the FW190 sucks. I have a small list of people I know who will back me up (and Norris, I think even you may be one of them) when they and I say that its one of the best planes to fly.

On UK-D, Boehmer and I raised a storm with the two of us flying FW190A-5s. And yet I've been told so many times, even recently, that the FW190 sucks. It has some challenges (real and imagined) but I am more confident in the FW190 than I am with most planes. So what does that tell me? Even with a plane that is supposedly badly undemodeled by some quarters (and not others) I achieve my best performance - against virtually any opponent. I'm not saying I'm a star ace pilot...just that I've practiced in this plane, I know it well, and I feel confident in what it will and will not do.

Another guy was telling me how the Hellcat sucks, stalls too much, doesn't turn, etc. This tells me he doesn't fly the plane, he doesn't know its actual abilities or what its really capable of. I like the plane alot, I'm feeling more and more confident in it...it may have some issues with its FM, but its really quite good in the right hands against its historical foes. But the FM questions put aside and suddenly its a very capable fighter. I'm still learning how to fly it...it takes weeks and months to learn the ins and outs of a plane.

What am I saying? Pilots need to work on the plane they want to fly....they can't just pick one up and "be good". Most guys who are generally accomplished fly, as a rule, only a few types of planes (when they are being serious) and they know how they work, what they do, what speed they climb best at, what speed they turn best at, what manuevers to use and which ones not to use, how much to pull on the stick and when. They know the plane is going to stall before it stalls, they know which engine controls to use, etc. I'm not saying restrict yourself to just one plane...but don't tell everyone how badly Oleg modeled X plane when they have only flown it maybe a half-dozen times at the most and then only for a few minutes.

Modeling issues are one thing (and they exist)...but pilots need to take some of the responsibility on themselves. Maybe its not ALWAYS the game at fault.

I really respect the guys who fly the 109 or the Yak or whatever...when they have been flying it for 2-3 years no matter what state its in.

Hi m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I agree with Ice's origional post reg amount of flight time, practice is the key elemnt in this game I feel. There are certain planes that offer beginners advantages over other more 'difficult' types but this is if anything historical. I have flown for over 2 years now since IL2 and I am still... learning. After a few months you think you know it all but , though the learning curve does slow, I am better now than I was 3 months ago.

Practicing in a certain plane is essential, Air combat manuvering theory is applicable to all fighters in the game but each one operates in a totally different way so the application of theory has to be different.

In a Fw 190 I feel comfortable, in a La 7 (Im being honest here) Im left scratching my head a lot of the time wondering how guys do so well in it.

Lastnight was a good mission IceFire, it was a pleasure teaming up with you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It illustrates what you are saying - a couple of guys with hundreds of hours experience in a certain type can rock - relatively speaking - against mainly La 5FN's.

I think the Fw is undermodeled to a degree (boost ratings A4 is 1.3 - should be 1.45, A6 is 1.45 - should be 1.68 ect) but it still can hold its own against any opponent as long as you know what you are doing - and I dont just mean hit and run you can really mix it up. If I get killed it is your own fault or you are up against someone like Levola and you can do everything right and still get your *** handed to you.

rgr

Boemher

LuckyBoy1
05-12-2005, 06:25 AM
On the subject of "real" WWII planes... now, for the purists, let me qualify this statement by saying the planes I flew was a Vietnam era plane... it was called a tail modified P-51 essentially a D model with a larger tail assembly and control surfaces for better mobility at low speeds and lower altitudes for ground attack. I have just over 800 hours in that plane. Let me qualify that by telling you that none of those hours were combat hours and I never carried military ordinance. I guess a P-51 is now seen as a priceless antique. In 1962, they were just so much surplus war junk. My Uncle purchased the plane and converted it for use as a crop duster. Yes, it's stall speed was a bit high for the purpose and it wasn't so good on fuel, but he simply didn't have the $82,000.00 U.S. in 1962 money... who knows how much that would be now... for something like a Grumman Ag Truck. Still, all my hours were NOT crop dusting and I even managed to do a bit of pylon racing in it.

With all that said, yes, I have many hours in essentially a stick controlled WWII fighter. Does this game faithfully reproduce the feel of a P-51?...

No!

However, if it did, you would need a nitrogen cooled super computer to run it! This is why I get so p!ssed when people whine for trivial eye candy when the game already bogs down the best of the best PC's with high eye candy settings. Technology will be advancing slower and cost more for each step. Please take the cheese along with your whine and shove it where the sun don't shine and learn to respect this very passable flight sim game for PC's.

EFG_beber
05-12-2005, 06:39 AM
on how French planes suck too. I'm sure it will happen...give it time!

We don't have flyable french plane
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But Nice post Icefire http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pirschjaeger
05-12-2005, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by mole_boy:
its nice to see someone who is ready to admit that there not the best pilot, because no one person is. For examlpe some noob (like me) might do a certain tactic better than some ace. the point I making is we can all learn something from someone else

Sorry, you are wrong. JG_54 Arnie IS the best pilot. That's why I always shoot him down. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

I'm coming for you Arnie! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Fritz Franzen(Arnie killer) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

mynameisroland
05-12-2005, 06:57 AM
Hi Ice again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

remember what I was going on about the other night with D9 with boosted performance? Its caller A - lader, it was a specially boosted Jumo 213 for use at low levels - like the Spit LF's Merlin was. It used Mw50 and B4 fuel! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif and achieved over 400mph at sea level and pumped out 2480HP

heres the performance chart link

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/d9speed2chart.jpg

rgr

Boemher

JG54_Arnie
05-12-2005, 07:19 AM
Hmm, what do we have here: A burning Fritzy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Medium red is where Germans are most tasty. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
http://home.student.utwente.nl/a.j.vansteenwijk/IL2/fritzy.jpg

Da_Godfatha
05-12-2005, 08:30 AM
Yes Ivan, I have flown a real plane. I don`t have my papers, but I am able to take controls of my mates plane every now and then. I did read his post,(again) and I do understand what he said. But, I think after my first sentence, most people stopped reading what I said. I KNOW the game is not perfect, it is at the moment, THE leader in flight sims. I play it every night onwhine (as long as my old doll lets me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ),BTW not as Da_Godfatha. But I think some people in the community are scared to say anything bad about the game. No, I don`t mean the slugs who insult OM or 1C, but the ones who want to make it even better than it is.

Now, I am the first to admit my flying (virtual and real) leaves alot to be desired, but sometimes I KNOW it is not my flying when things go wrong. That is why I usually fly just Bomba`s onwhine, can`t hit cr@p with a fighter plane!!!!

Oh, I may not have as many hours a you Ivan, but in a bomber I can usually hold my own. I have question to you Ivan, do you fly wonder woman or full cockpit? It seems to me alot of the Dudes here fly ONLY wonder woman. Shoot, I fly full cockpit even on wonder woman servers (maybe that is my problem?)

I do agree to a certain point with Ice. I myself have seen these types of players onwhine. Most I think are refugees from CFS3. Both sides of the coin are true, Lame to blame the game, Lame to blame the pilots.

It is possible with 4.0, ALL of us may have to learn to fly again or rethink our tactics. I hope I have clarified my view of this post better (not muddled it up even more).

VW-IceFire
05-12-2005, 10:44 AM
Da_Godfatha, I know what your saying...and I'm not entirely against that point of view. The game isn't perfect as has already been stated...there are reasons why and why not and many I'd like to see fixed. FM, DM, aesthetic, structurally and otherwise.

But thats part of the equation...I'm suggesting that the other part of the equation...maybe even 3/4ths of it...is that vital human interaction. Players/pilots have to take responsibility for their own inadequacies. I think you show that you have. Flying bombers is a thankless sometimes but important job and I do tend to fly bombers on a semi-regular basis. Its a good break from fighter combat and not everyone is suited to it.

Boehmer, that chart looks interesting...one can hope http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

crazyivan1970
05-12-2005, 10:55 AM
I fly Full Cockpit Godfatha... for last 2 years at least. But back in the beginning was doing 50/50. To tell you the truth, i don`t fly much anymore. Work and family stuff seriosly limited "me time" for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
05-12-2005, 10:59 AM
Hi,

Are you a politician, Ivan? You've managed to dodge my questions again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'm not so naive to know why you've dodged them, though - after all you are a representative of UBI on this board and would be wise to watch what you say http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It may well be a common problem to whinge about it being the game when it's the pilot but, as I've pointed out, it's not my complaint. With respect to things getting better through change, I would agree with that except that they don't. Problems merely get replaced by other problems and new planes have introduce their own set of problems which effectively means that issues with older ones are not sorted out. As soon as the latest batch of aircraft do get close to something acceptable, it's not the case that the old ones are dealt with...no, they introduce some more planes along with another set of problems. You've put a positive spin on that and suggested that it's all good because things get fixed as they go along. True, except that old issues never get looked at. So, in answer to your question...yes and no, with slightly more emphasis on no.

As Ice points out (and yes, I've always considered our exchanges as friendly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif....and sorry, also, for hijacking the thread), I fly the 190 almost exclusively and I do think it's the best aircraft in the game even though it seems to have an old Achilles heel replaced with a new one with almost every patch. Is that really progress? No.

What's worse is that you can expect 4.0 to bring a whole raft of problems with it that won't be sorted out for at least 2-3 patches if at all (BoB may get in the way). So, what will we be left with? Another crock with new flight models that are off the mark + old DMs that no one could be bothered to update for some reason then to be told (a little pompously, IMO) that it will all be fixed in BoB (like in the 151/20 MG thread) so we will have to just go out and buy that....or, looking on the positive side, will we get something that is acutally tested properly for once, coupled with play-spoiling DMs being fixed, that will restore my confidence sufficiently to shell out for BoB?

Ta
Norris

crazyivan1970
05-12-2005, 11:31 AM
Hi Norris,
Why don`t you ask question straight forward so i wont look for it between the lines? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Quantity over quality... hmmm it`s a good point... and that`s the approach for the next sim i believe. Also, once again, think bigger... would you think 20 planes hold this sim for 4 years even if they were 100% dead on perfect? I understand what you saying tho.. And no, i am not a politician http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Also think about all this in different perspective... there is only hand full of picky ones and vocal ones. Absolute majority is having a ball... or maybe i am wrong about it?

Bull_dog_
05-12-2005, 11:53 AM
This debate is interesting and I too have had friendly debates w/ Norris online...but personally I prefer quantity http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif over quality.

I like having lots of aircraft to fly, I don't mind waiting for changes to be made...what gets maddening is not knowing when and if things will change.

Pilots do get better with time. Tactics are of tantemount importance like a good chess match. Ice's original statement was right on the money. I too have a few specific issues with a few specific aircraft but so many of them are correct for the most part that I am pleased with the evolution of the sim....my biggest worry is, like I said above, if/when will support stop. I'd like to see the lightning compressibility thing fixed, the elevator authority on Mustangs causing the wing to fall off fixed, DM's on certain Soviet aircraft fixed, etc...but the game is good and frankly speaking if you learn your plane, learn tactics, you can kill opposing pilots in 95% of aircraft from similar time frames...

Heck Ice and I and few others held our own in P-38J's the other night against some good Fw and 109 jocks and that isn't easy to do...but the plane has strengths and can be effective especially with a good wingman...Boehmer and I traded fire..sometimes he won, sometimes I did.

Given equal pilot skill and tactics, the plane performance can and will carry the day but I find that the scenario of equal skill, energy and tactics virtually never happens...as someone wrote earlier...usually I die when I make a dumb mistake (usually tactically) or I get out flown....and as time has gone bye, it is harder and harder for others to outfly but I do die everynight I fly...hopefully I take lots more of them than they of me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

I wouldn't take an I-16 vs a Dora but I agree that when I hear people whine about their plane, it is usually a case of not flying it correctly because even if a little something is off, most aircraft in this sim have an advantage of some type or another over another if the pilot can exploit it...and if not, then tactics will carry the day.

By the way...Oleg, don't change the Fw...I love it! It is the dangerous, but not invulnerable beast in game that it was in real life imho.

Hydra444
05-12-2005, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I like shooting down Spits when I fly the 109. I also like shooting down 109's when I fly the Spit.

Last year I recommended to our squadron we each choose 2 planes from the Axis and 2 planes from the Allies and become used to them.

I chose the 109g2, Fw190a4, ealiest Spit, and the earliest La.

I was tired of joining our DF server and flying in a 109 free-for-all. Their argument was "It's good training". I asked if the LW trained to fight 109's? No reply, no change.

I think this happens a lot in many servers and squadrons. It takes a long time to get used to one plane but it's more than worth it in the end when you get used to 2 of each side.

When I fly the 109 I know how to kill the Spits, when I fly the Spit, I know how to kill the 109. Simple logic me thinks, nothing "uber" there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

In my squadron,each flight flies a different country of orgin a/c.It keeps things interesting and allows EVERYONE in the squad to appreciate what each plane is capable of doing.Fact be known,each and every single plane in the game is a forced to be reckoned with if the proper amount of seat time is given to them.I've flown the Hurri to almost complete exclusion (til recently,hehehe) for a good 2 years now and have come to know exactly what it can do,what I can make it,and what it simply isn't capable of.

I think many people though need to realize that this is a game.Many around here would do good to set down the joystick,go on date,get married,have kids...HAVE A LIFE! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
05-12-2005, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Hi Norris,
Why don`t you ask question straight forward so i wont look for it between the lines? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Quantity over quality... hmmm it`s a good point... and that`s the approach for the next sim i believe. Also, once again, think bigger... would you think 20 planes hold this sim for 4 years even if they were 100% dead on perfect? I understand what you saying tho.. And no, i am not a politician http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Also think about all this in different perspective... there is only hand full of picky ones and vocal ones. Absolute majority is having a ball... or maybe i am wrong about it?

Hi,

As I said earlier, picking an arbitrary number that's low enough to validate your point of view is fair enough but, again, distorting. I've not said I would prefer to have 20 planes that are perfect - it's impossible because no one knows what 'perfect' is. The p*ssing contests..er..debtates..in ORR show the case to be clear that no one person really knows what these aircraft performed like IRL.

Rather, how about having 100 well modelled planes that are better than 200 badly modelled ones and better, again, than 20 perfectly modelled ones?

My point still remains; why do we have different problems introduced in patches and a new FM each time with no DM changes to certain aircraft? Fine tuning to what? Whose information? Or is it for more sinister purposes, such as marketing. I only ask that because when things change, there must be a reason.


Regardless, here is a direct question: Is the Lagg3 DM simplified in comparison to other aircraft in the game.

Another direct question: If so, why?

Another direct question: How about simply bringing certain aircraft DMs up to scratch so they don't distort "historical recreations" so much?

Another direct question: If not, why?

You may say that the majority of people are having a ball but you are viewing a narrow window of the game audience in this forum. How many people took PF back to the shop dissatified with the product for one reason or another?

Don't misunderstand me; this game is top of it's class (not many in the class, admittedly, but it was a step change forward initially and has aged gracefully [but declined] since) and I've had many an hour's enjoyment out of it in the last n years (I'm very probably near your 5000hour limit even though I spent a lot of that offline initially) but I would like to understand why age old issues are never really resolved.

I think a lot of online pilots may well be exasperated to see the effects of the relative DM modelling. After all, if you've just pumped a large number of shells into a Deltawooden wonder, then it turned around and shot you down with one or two hits, then you might just be forgiven for complaining about the plane....and, in this case, I don't really think that is the pilot's fault.

Ta,
Norris

crazyivan1970
05-12-2005, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:

Rather, how about having 100 well modelled planes that are better than 200 badly modelled ones and better, again, than 20 perfectly modelled ones?

My point still remains; why do we have different problems introduced in patches and a new FM each time with no DM changes to certain aircraft? Fine tuning to what? Whose information? Or is it for more sinister purposes, such as marketing. I only ask that because when things change, there must be a reason.



So, your conclusion is - we have 200 badly modelled planes or i got it all wrong? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Well, ok...so you know - there is rather large group of people that communicates with devteam on regular bases and those are capable of providing RL documents, which of course not always 100% correct ones - but at least it`s something to work with. So, to comment on said above, Maddox doesn`t change FM`s or DM`s just for the hell of it. It`s always based on something - that`s what we know of as fine tuning.



Regardless, here is a direct question: Is the Lagg3 DM simplified in comparison to other aircraft in the game.

Another direct question: If so, why?


Honestly don`t know. Lagg3 series were reported not once.



Another direct question: How about simply bringing certain aircraft DMs up to scratch so they don't distort "historical recreations" so much?

Another direct question: If not, why?


And you are going to pay programmers to do that? See, it`s a common problem here, people got use to the fact that alot of things were added to the sim for free. It takes alot of work to introduce complex DM, many hours and not just one programmer.



You may say that the majority of people are having a ball but you are viewing a narrow window of the game audience in this forum. How many people took PF back to the shop dissatified with the product for one reason or another?

How many?
How about this: how many people pirated the dang thing because they are cheap bastiges? 55,000 PFcopies sold, but everyone and his brother has it. Whadda you say? Doesn`t add up, you know... over 200,000 copies of FB sold.. does that mean 150k returned PF because it was so badly modelled http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



Don't misunderstand me; this game is top of it's class (not many in the class, admittedly, but it was a step change forward initially and has aged gracefully [but declined] since) and I've had many an hour's enjoyment out of it in the last n years (I'm very probably near your 5000hour limit even though I spent a lot of that offline initially) but I would like to understand why age old issues are never really resolved.


I am not misunderstanding you, i`m just having a friendly discussion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



I think a lot of online pilots may well be exasperated to see the effects of the relative DM modelling. After all, if you've just pumped a large number of shells into a Deltawooden wonder, then it turned around and shot you down with one or two hits, then you might just be forgiven for complaining about the plane....and, in this case, I don't really think that is the pilot's fault.

Ta,
Norris

Online comparassions are invalid IMO. True tests are done off line. One day internet will be a better place and some of the common problems will go away. Online only stresses out problems, making them bigger then they really are. I have flown delta wood planes, not that often, but i did. Nothing spectacular, in other words - not a show stopper. At some point in IL2 and FB, yes it was an issue... but not anymore in my opinion.

Boy, i am turning into TAGERT heeee

karost
05-12-2005, 01:57 PM
Bull_dog_:
"Tactics are of tantemount importance like a good chess match. Ice's original statement was right on the money."

K: Yesss...! I agree that 100% but I/we feel something that we can not runway from a true effect like this :

1) in P-39 in IL2-origianl and P-39 in FB which one close FM IRL and why ?

2) did Marketing reason make P-39 ( and other planes) in FB difference from IL2-original ?

3) Marketing points are major problem for a hardcore players ( this group are about 15% of total customer)?

4) case study for FM in 4.0 will make the game more difficult ( as it should be ) but that will effect in nagative side in $$$ of sale volumn in BOB project ( a marketing man know that ) so what is a good solution for BOB. ( to make 80% ($$$) of players feel they a one of good pilots same as a hardcore player group ) ?

5) "quality over quantity ... " and "Marketing reason ... " which one is a major direction for 1C ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


"If you don't know howto fly, don't blame the game" .

... 80 % may don't know that but they like FUN... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S~

VW-IceFire
05-12-2005, 02:08 PM
karost...I don't see the new FM as a problem for new pilots. You can still turn off stalls, torque, wind, and the like just like you can now. Those who will complain the most are the guys who already have it.

Guys who come into the series new...say in BoB...will just adapt to a new system of flying. I took Lock On Demo 1.1 out of a spin recently and I had a ball learning how to fly in that game. Some things are harder, some are easier, its a different game, and I assumed it to be a part of the learning curve.

If not introducing a new FM was a problem of sales...then we would have never progressed from teh limited FM modeling of games like Aces of the Pacific (I'm not bashing it, its just old and thats what they could do at the time).

Good question, which P-39 (for instance) is more accurate...the one from before or the one now. Hard to say http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

OldMan____
05-12-2005, 02:13 PM
In fact I think most these issues come from the fact that playesr expect to be able to use same tatics they read about.


When a player reads that FW190 used to fight spitfires in close combat using Energy tatics and obliterating they expect to be able to be rather easy to extract from FW the performance required to fight a spitfire.


But in PF is a HARD thing to do! No one can arguee that fighting spits 9 in a FW is not for noobs as game is now. That is thekind of issue that cause all this kind of discussion.


Is not fun to be a fan of plane X and to be able to suceed at it .. use a tatics that were not required in RL.


As a GLOBAL view... it seems that current FM makes life easier to traditional TnB planes. It is still possible to win in a E plane or BnZ plane... but you have to extend their tatics to a limit much farther away than was needed in RL. Notice that planes called Uber are usually TnB planes, while the "sucks" ones are traditional E planes.


What can we do? Nothing.. if you want to fly a certain plane and win.. learn to use it the way is needed. I know it would be much better if was possible to fly with same tatics as in RL... but we can't have everything.


I learned to fight in FW190.. and enjoy it, although sometimes I get very angry when something happens that historica data would deny. So I can uderstand frustration in many pilots virtual lifes.


I just hope that 4.0 new FM will improve this GLOBAL issue that is the hidden cause of many " MY PLANE IS PORKED" complains. If not.. well we can only keep playing.

NorrisMcWhirter
05-12-2005, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:

Rather, how about having 100 well modelled planes that are better than 200 badly modelled ones and better, again, than 20 perfectly modelled ones?

My point still remains; why do we have different problems introduced in patches and a new FM each time with no DM changes to certain aircraft? Fine tuning to what? Whose information? Or is it for more sinister purposes, such as marketing. I only ask that because when things change, there must be a reason.



So, your conclusion is - we have 200 badly modelled planes or i got it all wrong? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Well, ok...so you know - there is rather large group of people that communicates with devteam on regular bases and those are capable of providing RL documents, which of course not always 100% correct ones - but at least it`s something to work with. So, to comment on said above, Maddox doesn`t change FM`s or DM`s just for the hell of it. It`s always based on something - that`s what we know of as fine tuning.



Regardless, here is a direct question: Is the Lagg3 DM simplified in comparison to other aircraft in the game.

Another direct question: If so, why?


Honestly don`t know. Lagg3 series were reported not once.



Another direct question: How about simply bringing certain aircraft DMs up to scratch so they don't distort "historical recreations" so much?

Another direct question: If not, why?


And you are going to pay programmers to do that? See, it`s a common problem here, people got use to the fact that alot of things were added to the sim for free. It takes alot of work to introduce complex DM, many hours and not just one programmer.



You may say that the majority of people are having a ball but you are viewing a narrow window of the game audience in this forum. How many people took PF back to the shop dissatified with the product for one reason or another?

How many?
How about this: how many people pirated the dang thing because they are cheap bastiges? 55,000 PFcopies sold, but everyone and his brother has it. Whadda you say? Doesn`t add up, you know... over 200,000 copies of FB sold.. does that mean 150k returned PF because it was so badly modelled http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



Don't misunderstand me; this game is top of it's class (not many in the class, admittedly, but it was a step change forward initially and has aged gracefully [but declined] since) and I've had many an hour's enjoyment out of it in the last n years (I'm very probably near your 5000hour limit even though I spent a lot of that offline initially) but I would like to understand why age old issues are never really resolved.


I am not misunderstanding you, i`m just having a friendly discussion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



I think a lot of online pilots may well be exasperated to see the effects of the relative DM modelling. After all, if you've just pumped a large number of shells into a Deltawooden wonder, then it turned around and shot you down with one or two hits, then you might just be forgiven for complaining about the plane....and, in this case, I don't really think that is the pilot's fault.

Ta,
Norris

Online comparassions are invalid IMO. True tests are done off line. One day internet will be a better place and some of the common problems will go away. Online only stresses out problems, making them bigger then they really are. I have flown delta wood planes, not that often, but i did. Nothing spectacular, in other words - not a show stopper. At some point in IL2 and FB, yes it was an issue... but not anymore in my opinion.

Boy, i am turning into TAGERT heeee </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hi,

Thanks for your response, Ivan. And no, you haven't turned into Tagert for reasons I won't state http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

No, I'm not saying we have 200 badly modelled planes but that we have a large number of relatively well modelled planes and a few bad apples that spoil the barrel. I always pick on the Lagg primarily because I don't understand why it has never been sorted out. Also, I'm certainly not going to pay for it to be changed because AFAIC it should have been done a long time ago...before I was shelling out for PF, for example.

Of course Oleg and co don't go around changing FMs just for the sake of it because (unless the FM engine is entirely deterministic) it would require some significant testing. Of course, I have to view the game as a black box and, in doing so, I have to wonder why they don't just concentrate on sorting a few aircraft out per patch and leave them before moving on to the next batch. Or, am I right to think that they simply model aircraft relatively and this is why constant re-jigging seems to be required..as they have to shuffle things around to fit new planes in etc?

No...I'm just curious as to why something like the Lagg was overlooked because it is the odd one out. If I was being negative, I could suggest that it was through marketing on the home turf or some kind of tribute to the designer/fliers (a bit like the I185 UFO, for instance). In the absence of more accurate information, you can understand why I might draw such a conclusion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The pirating business doesn't really answer my question and is largely irrelevant to me because I paid for my copy. More ironic is the fact that I was actually promised a free copy of the game for contributing towards it (which never happened) but still went out and purchased it when it was released; believe me when I say that I won't be making that same mistake again (contributing or running out to get a copy). Again, I just assumed that PF wasn't the success that it might have been because there has been talk of not making much money etc in the last 6 months. That can't all be blamed on piracy...or can it?

Unfortunately, it's very easy to blame things on online lag etc...for instance, the 151/20 loadout debacle was blamed on lag for some time when it actually turned out to be an actual issue.

Anyway, this is clearly going nowhere. I'll just wait for October for 4.0 to come out only to find that some of the same old problems will still be there along with the inevitable; new problems. Gotta love having some 'friendly customers' who will do the majority of your testing for you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers,
Norris

Schalke-Kahn
05-12-2005, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Best post i`v seen here in days...

Cheers!

Sounds like a fanboy to me, and you too.

LuckyBoy1
05-12-2005, 10:30 PM
I think everyone pretty much knows by now that me and CrazyDude get along kinda like oil and water... I still haven't decided who's oily and who's all wet yet, but that will come in time I guess!

Still, as far as his comments in this thread goes...

CrazyIvan! CrazyIvan! CrazyIvan, you are so right on about this, especially the point about pirating. I am shocked to hear sales were that poor. You would think with all the blowing hard about how great this game is and how supportive the community is that they'd have at least topped the 100,000 sales mark!

I'm sitting here looking at the Forgotten Battles disc, the ACE disc and the PF disc... all legally purchased. I'm looking at my latest work on the next edition of Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users. I'm thinking...

and now because of some stupid pirating, this is all going to die?

The same idiots who won't buy this game even though they know full well they will play it day after day and hour after hour while not even blinking about dropping $50.00 U.S. on a better copywrite protected game that they will play for four hours and drop for good... I dunnow man, I just don't know anymore. I think I'm gonna drink heavily tonight and get online with ping666 and cuss him for playing it pirated! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

He's my friend... yeah, I know, he's kinda a creepy little pervert, but he's my friend none the less and always will be my little brother. Still, until we call out our supposed "friends" who are sucking this game dry, nothing, and I mean nothing will change. I'm sure you have some buddies too CrazyDude who pirate the game and freely admit it. Do you kick them from your server? Don't say yes to that because I know better!

Pirschjaeger
05-12-2005, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by Schalke-Kahn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Best post i`v seen here in days...

Cheers!

Sounds like a fanboy to me, and you too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, you remind me of someone I used to know. You don't Trink Afri Cola do you? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz Franzen

OldMan____
05-13-2005, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by LuckyBoy1:
I think everyone pretty much knows by now that me and CrazyDude get along kinda like oil and water... I still haven't decided who's oily and who's all wet yet, but that will come in time I guess!

Still, as far as his comments in this thread goes...

CrazyIvan! CrazyIvan! CrazyIvan, you are so right on about this, especially the point about pirating. I am shocked to hear sales were that poor. You would think with all the blowing hard about how great this game is and how supportive the community is that they'd have at least topped the 100,000 sales mark!

I'm sitting here looking at the Forgotten Battles disc, the ACE disc and the PF disc... all legally purchased. I'm looking at my latest work on the next edition of Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users. I'm thinking...

and now because of some stupid pirating, this is all going to die?

The same idiots who won't buy this game even though they know full well they will play it day after day and hour after hour while not even blinking about dropping $50.00 U.S. on a better copywrite protected game that they will play for four hours and drop for good... I dunnow man, I just don't know anymore. I think I'm gonna drink heavily tonight and get online with ping666 and cuss him for playing it pirated! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

He's my friend... yeah, I know, he's kinda a creepy little pervert, but he's my friend none the less and always will be my little brother. Still, until we call out our supposed "friends" who are sucking this game dry, nothing, and I mean nothing will change. I'm sure you have some buddies too CrazyDude who pirate the game and freely admit it. Do you kick them from your server? Don't say yes to that because I know better!

sometiems is justa matter of being in the other sie to understand it. As a Game deveoper.. I do NOT play anything along wiht any friend that uses an ilegal copy, not only wiht PF.. but ANY game.


I kind of "accept " piracy for a few days to test a game before buying it.. but keeping a pirate copy is somethign I can´t really understand how people fail to see is a crime as stealing a car.

Tallyho1961
05-13-2005, 06:43 AM
The pirating issue is a true crime.

When I think of how much money people shell out on exotic, short-lived hardware, screwing a developer out of his comparitively small share of the computer gaming pie is really low.

Maybe if PF had done better than 50M paid-up copies, some of the things people are looking for would have been addressed by now.

I'm not sure what the average price of PF is - I think I paid $40CDN - which @50M copies would make $2MM CDN, or roughly $1.5MM USD in gross sales.

I'm not saying $1.5MM USD is chicken feed, but I wonder how much is left for 1C: Maddox after all the development, publishing and promotional costs are removed. And, if some tens of thousands of copies were pirated (as suggested above), imagine how that would dampen the enthusiasm of any normal business operation in terms of providing 'free' support.

I hope that Oleg is able to continue with the add-ons and patches to this series - it really is something I've not seen elsewhere. But I also hope that when his company releases a product people have the common decency to pay for it.

DIRTY-MAC
05-24-2005, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by madsarmy:
The two reasons I die online are simple
1.I make a stupid mistake.
2.The other pilot is much better than me.

Bulls eye!

Takata_
05-24-2005, 02:35 PM
Ivan, if PF sales were only 25% of Forgotten Battles... are you sure that the reason was piracy?

This figure is not surprinsing at all for me and I don't think it's related to piracy because piracy is a kind of constant rate for each product, say like, one sold for one pirated... and there is no real reason why PF would have been more pirated than FB.

If PF sales are well under FB level, isn't it related with the quality of PF as a game... and how Ubisoft sold it?

From what I've got as a PF buyer, It's only a good add-on for FB-AEP, even if the amount of work put on it was much bigger than what they put on AEP. As a stand alone, I would have drop FB to play it for maybe one month and I'll be back to FB.

Add-ons sales are always much less than the original game... what is the number of AEP sold?

PF should have been made like an add-on, around a good campaign, like CBI or Salomons, with a limited but complete historical plane set, maps, ships... not like the whole WW2 Pacific theater it is supposed to be and it obviously failed to be, and on this matter, quality is always a better trailer for sales than quantity.

If Maddox think that such low sales are piracy related, maybe they will be very disapointed with the release of their next product if they don't learn anything from PF failure.

IMHO, Ubisoft didn't push the product and I don't think the product was good enough to reach better sales by his own.

Takata.


Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
How many?
How about this: how many people pirated the dang thing because they are cheap bastiges? 55,000 PFcopies sold, but everyone and his brother has it. Whadda you say? Doesn`t add up, you know... over 200,000 copies of FB sold.. does that mean 150k returned PF because it was so badly modelled http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif