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Double_A2006
09-18-2006, 07:44 AM
I have been flying since AEP came out. My 2 favorite planes are the P51 and P47. I feel that I am doing quite well with these planes but of course I can also do better. I can get on War Clouds and usually get a couple of kills per sortie and try to head for home. However, I always get it from the guy I never see either on the way back to base or shortly after a kill that only makes me wonder how any pilot back then made it through the war. So I am looking for higher technical answers about how to use these 2 planes better in the sim.

Back to my questions about these two planes.

Prop Pitch
I do not feel I can get the most speed out of these planes which is why I believe is one of my reasons for not being able to get out quickly to return home. When I look at my gauges I read around 300 MPH. I know the plane is really going faster because I read in here that it registers indicated and actual is higher. I have been messing with Prop Pitch but I do not think that I have the concept correct. To my understanding and I may be wrong (Probably am), at 100% the blade is not grabbing as much air as say at 85%. I notice that the RPM goes higher with higher prop pitch, which makes me believe that the prop is grabbing less air. Is this right or am I wrong on this? Do either of the engines in these 2 planes have a optimal RPM operational range. For example, when you look at cars, there is always a rating saying something like 225 HP @ 2500 RPM. Can the same sort of thinking be applied to the planes? I am thinking that the more air I grab and push behind me the faster I should be able to go but am I loosing HP when I am lowing my prop pitch. Let me know if I am on the right track with this or how off I am. Can anybody recommend a setting for me to try on these 2 planes?

Gun Convergence
I have been using 250 for my convergence because I believe that it was a happy medium for air combat and strafing. Since most online servers do not allow such things would I get quicker kills by lowering my convergence or this area just really up to the user? Can anyone let me know if they feel they do better with a shorter convergence?

Radiator Settings
I am always messing with the rads but I have read that depending on the settings, they will slow down the plane. Since I do not want over heat as much. Which setting would most recommend?

Like I said, I have been flying since AEP but now I think I need to get to the finer points. Any help or suggestion will be appreciated. Thanks.

WOLFMondo
09-18-2006, 07:50 AM
They made it through the war because they always flew with their squadron. Even flying in a pair you can get jumped badly.

I can't comment on the PP, I only reduce it when diving and I used 250 convergence but don't use the radiators at all in the P47. leave 'em shut cause they don't work anyway, apparently. By the time I get to 7K the P47 doesn't overheat period.

Radiators do slow planes down. You'll get better fuel efficientcy flying at90% throttle and rads closed than 110% throttle and rads open. The Tempest being one plane that comes to mind.

RCAF_Irish_403
09-18-2006, 08:02 AM
i start lowering PP above 12,000 ft.

Gun conv. set at 150-200m

Double_A2006
09-18-2006, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by RCAF_Irish_403:
i start lowering PP above 12,000 ft.

Gun conv. set at 150-200m

So if I mess with the PP at lower alt. it will not do anything for me.

Xiolablu3
09-18-2006, 10:02 AM
I have been flying the sim for about a year online (offline longer) and I never use prop pitch.

Its just a complication I dont need in combat right now.

Maybe I will try and learn it in the future, but I find tactics a lot more important than all out performance anyway.

Just my opinon. I guess prop pitch may help me out in the odd situation, but you dont really gain THAT much speed do you? I would rather be scanning the sky for the unknown enemy than fiddling with my prop pitch, at the moment.

Double_A2006
09-18-2006, 10:08 AM
Your right about tactics. This is something I trying to understand and if I can use it to my advantage and if there is a HP to RPM that somebody might know about.

StellarRat
09-18-2006, 10:21 AM
You need to look behind and below you all the time. This is difficult in IL2 because even with Track IR we don't have correct rear visibility. You should be able to look around the headrest, but you can't. I turn left and right and climb all the time to check my low six. The other that will let you live a LOT longer is to fly with a group of four or more planes. Eight eyes are far less likely to miss something. Also, with the 51 and 47 you can climb to around 7500 meters and pretty much not have to worry about anyone being able to catch you from behind, since they will outrun anything the Germans have on Warclouds at that altitude.

Most of the time when I get jumped it's because I'm being lazy with my visual scans. After all, it's only a game.

Double_A2006
09-18-2006, 10:27 AM
Thanks Stellar,
I do not mind getting shot down. Far from it. I use the tactics you are talking about all the time. I am just wondering about getting all the performance I can. 7500??? I never see anyone that high. Probally because I am not up there. I will have to climb that high to see what is going on up there.

StellarRat
09-18-2006, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Double_A2006:
Thanks Stellar,
I do not mind getting shot down. Far from it. I use the tactics you are talking about all the time. I am just wondering about getting all the performance I can. 7500??? I never see anyone that high. Probally because I am not up there. I will have to climb that high to see what is going on up there. You aren't going to see much! 99% of the Germans weren't go up there because they are completely over-matched by US planes at that altitude. (Remember they were designed to escort B-17/24s way up there.) I was just suggesting it as a way to get around the map safely. Oh, for a flyable B-17 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

F19_Ob
09-18-2006, 12:01 PM
Hello Double.

What U describe is the classical dilemma for any combat pilot.

Ground-strafers like p47, p38 and p51 found themselves in an undesireable situation when giving up their altitude and exposing themselves to any enemy above.
The solution was to go in a big group and to leave topcover to watch over the strafers.
Still many were shot down.
It's very difficult to stop any determined attacker for an escort, and the enemy had their own tactics to counter the strafers.

Higher degree of vigilance and a good look-around-routine as mentioned is one thing that helps online.
By rolling the plane so one wing points upwards one can get a good look behind, above and below at the same time, wich also helps to overcome the wrongly angled mirrors in the sim. (for the for the planes that have mirrors http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

There is little one can do about planes that come in unoticed from higher altitude, since they are practically invisible at the darker blue above.
This is one of the things that caused experienced fighterpilots to get shot down by rookies.
A famous american ace once said that the thing a fighterpilot needed most was luck.


This is what I try to do when attacked by enemies when flying p38, p51 and p47.

I always try to have high speed and reluctantly give it up unless I have to aid a friendly in trouble.

If I'm high and notice I have been jumped I immediately push stick hard forward (fastest move) and dive almost straight down, but roll so one wing point uppward, so I don't get hit so easily in the vulnerable wings.
I may add a lazy turn to my dive.
If the initial separation is great the attacker may even give up the chase, or perhaps he don't want to give up his energy.

This way I can dive away, often unharmed, by Japanese attackers (with ki84 as only exeption)

Regarding other axis planes I can't escape, but usually can keep enough distance to make it harder to deflect and hit wich can buy me time to reach friendlies.
By diving I also force the attackers to low altitude, making them vulnerable to attack from planes with better energy.

I may also shoot tracers to alert friendlies and to reveal my position. The more planes in the fight the better for planes that can't turnfight.
If I have cannon and mg's I fire the mg's tracers first, and in the p47 one can shoot half the guns with one trigger , so one can save ammo.

When dragging an enemy I go as low as possible to deny the enemy to hide or dive below my tail.
I always have a slow turn going but alter occasionally by doing gentle pushes and wavelike maneuvers.
It sounds meager but actually have good effect depending on distance.Sometimes also rudder may help to make the enemy miss, but it's easy to overdo it and lose energy instead.

If I see the enemy gaining on me and already are too close for comfort I try with harder pushes and pulls but no direct turning unless I know I can get away with it.
If the attacker is a fw190 I may try to outturn him in a p38 or p51, but against a bf109 it's quite useless since it can do everything I can better.
Therefore It's best to stay with pushes and pulls mixed with rolls and small direction changes occasionally until help gets there.

Sometimes it's possible to declererate while doing these maneuvers and that way throw an attacker close behind off aim, or cause him to overshoot, wich also may lead to a possibility to put distance between u and the foe again.

Sometimes when an enemy is in an allround better plane and tactical situation one may have to consider bailing to survive, and possibly escape enemy forces, to fly another day.

When it comes to aid a friendly in distress the help can't arrive too soon.
I've made a habit of not saving ammo when fending off a foe on a friendly tail.
As soon as I'm within 800-700m I start firing my tracers to disturb or possibly cause the foe to break off his attack. Usually a hit causes even experienced pilots to react instinctively.

Actually nowadays 90% or so of my kills online comes from shooting off enemies from friendly tails.
My hitstatistics are really poor because of my spraying I guess, but I anyway stopped caring for stats many years ago and concentrate on keeping my teammates alive, if I can.
Many times I find that a saved friendly even tastes better than many kills, and I recommend this experience to anyone.


Well a few things that came to mind.

Diablo310th
09-18-2006, 12:17 PM
Double.....I fly the Jug about 99% of the time and have since it first came out. What my experience tells me is to set prop pitch to 100% and leave it except in a long steep dive. I lower it some then to gain more speed....however be careful because you can rip the wings off trust me. for radiators..leave them shut. They don't work and only add drag. It tkaes alot to fry the engine anyways and don't worry to much about the overheat message. You can fly forever after it first appears..just throttle back a few seconds and it will cool right down. I set my convergence to 270 and 275. Remember that teh inner and outer guns on teh Jug have seperate settings. Cannon is for the outer 4 guns. Take 50% fuel and extra ammo and you can fly for a very long time with good maneuverability as long as you keep your speed up to around 250 mph. I always try to go into a fight at no less than 20,000 ft. I know it's ahrd to see on a summer map but if you jsut keep your eyes open you'll find the action. On a winteer map sighting from over 20,000 is a breeze. I'm no expert for sure just alot of time in the Jug. Zun Zun is one of teh best Jug pilots on war Clouds...talk to him too.

Double_A2006
09-18-2006, 12:17 PM
Thanks to all for your replys but I think I got my answers on the prop pitch from the thread from Luthier asking for the file for aircraft reference.

"Prop Pitch The angle at which the propeller blade \bites" into the air; its angle of attack.

In the game it works more like
a RPM governor.

Decrease the Prop Pitch percentage to decrease the RPMs and accelerate faster in a dive. The
Propeller stops rotating with Engine off and Prop Pitch 0%, which can be useful for a quicker emergency landing."

So, again, Thanks to all for your answers. Off to have some fun at 24k

WWMaxGunz
09-18-2006, 01:30 PM
Spend more time experimenting flying offline and understand that some planes have Constant
Speed Props modelled (they work as modelled which is little bit shortcut) and some have
Variable Speed Prop and IIRC at least one is Fixed Pitch Prop. There seems to be at least
2 different CSP system models and then you get into the differences between planes with
automatic and manual systems that vary greatly like esp 109's.

Take P-47 or P-51 and get up to 400 kph at 3000 ft alt on auto-pitch. Now set manual pitch
which is for those planes RPM control. The faster the prop turns the faster the engine heats
so run 90% power and 100% RPM till your speed stabilizes. Spend the time getting the plane
trimmed as well as possible, use rudder to counter torque-roll instead of aileron trim.
Once your speed is stabilized, cut the RPM's 5% and see if the nose rises or falls which will
tell you quickly if you have gained or lost thrust. Retrim and when your speed is stable note
that. Cut RPM's 5% more to 90% and note what happens.
Once you see how that all works and have varied power to find your best cruise (amazing how
fast you can chug along at 70% power, ain't it?) it's time for seeing how to slow down like
maybe for landing approach. Drop power and pitch very low and note the rate you lose speed
for 5 seconds or so while holding alt and then run the RPM's up to 100% with power at 10%
and note what that does.

And all at low alt. What pitch does depends much on how much power you put behind it.

If you want to play with 109's on manual then get to know the engine speed by the sound so
you can raise or drop pitch without fixating on the tachometer. You can get really killer
in a 109 if you keep your ear tuned to the motor same as running a stick in a sports car or
on a motorbike.

Bearcat99
09-18-2006, 03:56 PM
The thing with PP in the sim.. at least from what I have found with the two planes you mentioned.. is that it's effects are gradual... meaning... to pick up speed put you pitch @90 and your throttle @90... if you are cruising you will gradually pick up speed... experiment... just remember if you lower the pitch ypou will pick up speed.. it just takes time.. I also lower it in a dive.... I rarely go below @ 75-80 on PP ... I cant really tell anymore since I turned my hudlog off... I look at the lever. But it does help to achieve max cruise speed... even down low.

PBNA-Boosher
09-18-2006, 04:21 PM
wingmen. If you want to survive, keep a wingman.

Double_A2006
09-19-2006, 08:59 AM
Thanks for the information Max and BC. Will go back to experimenting and having more paitence with it.

UnknownTarget
09-19-2006, 09:23 AM
I fly the P51 on occassion, and the most advice I can give is that if you're good in the F4U, fly it about the same way. The P51 has great acceleration and dive characteristics, and it's an incredible dogfighter at high speed. I've noticed that the controls are ultra responsive at speeds at +400 km/h, so when you get in a dogfight, just keep extending as much as you can. In online DFs you run into trouble in the -51 and -47 because they're designed to fight against German a/c - so when you get into a fight with, oh...a Spitfire Mk IX 25lbs, you lose all your advantages in comparison.

JG53Frankyboy
09-19-2006, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
..............If you want to play with 109's on manual then get to know the engine speed by the sound so
you can raise or drop pitch without fixating on the tachometer. You can get really killer
in a 109 if you keep your ear tuned to the motor same as running a stick in a sports car or
on a motorbike.

my experince is that the "exploit" of the manual flownn 109s is gone since a one or two gameversions ago.

a K4 at manaul for example is not easy to keep in the air.

Double_A2006
09-19-2006, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
..............If you want to play with 109's on manual then get to know the engine speed by the sound so
you can raise or drop pitch without fixating on the tachometer. You can get really killer
in a 109 if you keep your ear tuned to the motor same as running a stick in a sports car or
on a motorbike.

my experince is that the "exploit" of the manual flownn 109s is gone since a one or two gameversions ago.

a K4 at manaul for example is not easy to keep in the air. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always blow up the engine when on manual PP in a 109.

faustnik
09-19-2006, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Diablo310th:
Double.....I fly the Jug about 99% of the time and have since it first came out. What my experience tells me is to set prop pitch to 100% and leave it except in a long steep dive. I lower it some then to gain more speed....however be careful because you can rip the wings off trust me. for radiators..leave them shut. They don't work and only add drag. It tkaes alot to fry the engine anyways and don't worry to much about the overheat message.

Thanks for the tips Diablo! I will try that next time I'm flying the Jug. I have always kept PP in the low 90s, except in emergency, to avoid overheat. I also keep the radiator at 6 or 8 for the same reason. The extra mph with your method sound good! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

JG53Frankyboy
09-19-2006, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Double_A2006:
....
I always blow up the engine when on manual PP in a 109.

than your engine RPM was to high !
if you are on manual you have to manipulate the propeller pitch all the time no to go over the critical RPMs (watch the gauge)

is do that VERY seldom (close to never - even i fly or flew the 109 a lot) so i have the numbers not exactly in my maind anymore:
the 109E max is around 2600rpm
the 109F too
109G+ is around 2800rpm.
sure for short times the RPMs can be higher.

but as i said, its not so anymore that you can get any performance plus flying on manual in the 109s - at least in my experience (that can be wrong of course !)

KaleunFreddie
09-19-2006, 02:44 PM
You're looking for the wrong answers.... don't take this advice the wrong way..

If you read enough books on air warfare you will notice a common pattern from either side of the conflict.
They go in high (height advantage) and they come out low (speed advantage). The other advantage of coming out low is that the opposition will have to be low to spot you in time. This will be to their disadvantage as they probably will not catch you, or they will get 'bounced'. Also you will be able to see the others above before they see you thus you can plan your escape accordingly.

Maybe in BoB there will be low level flak batteries on set escape routes waiting to protect you from tailers. Come in at 2000 ft and we know it's a friendly ??
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif