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View Full Version : Most unrealistic facet of IL-2/FB



XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:43 AM
My vote:

Tanks firing their main weapons at aircraft--and I'm not talking about AAA armored vehicles either. I'm talking about tanks like PzkwIVs firing their 75mm guns at planes. This is downright silly.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:43 AM
My vote:

Tanks firing their main weapons at aircraft--and I'm not talking about AAA armored vehicles either. I'm talking about tanks like PzkwIVs firing their 75mm guns at planes. This is downright silly.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:45 AM
It might seem silly but people do strange and unusual things when placed in extremely stressful and desperate conditions especially when their life is on the line such as war.

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Message Edited on 08/25/0312:45AM by Shifty101

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:46 AM
I've heard on the Eastern Front,this wasn't unheard of. Maybe even common....

47|FC
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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:46 AM
Yeah, well this happens ROUTINELY. In a tank, your ammo is limited, and your vision is exteremly limited.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:47 AM
lol

I wonder when you see and read:


Silent killed by Tanks main gun.


Is that by a tank or armored AAA?



But yes Suckerpuch11, i wonder the same thing.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:48 AM
Fly a QMB and with target as "armor". The tanks are easily identifyable. They will unload round after round at your plane.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 06:49 AM
I read one that said I was "blown by a tank's main gun". I was playing online with my friend and he thought that was the funniest thing in the world. I am not sure if being blown by a tank's main gun is a good or bad thing.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 07:07 AM
Well,the tanks may have unlimited ammo and are too accurate(which of course IS inaccurate),all I'm saying that it DID happen in the war....

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 07:31 AM
Anyone who ever was in WWII tank turret know that hitting an AC with main tank gun is almost unpossible unless your shot would be EXTREMELY lucky...

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 07:34 AM
Wow.

Fifty bucks flushed down the toilet.

Thanks for being so cool guys.

-------
I'm just saying...


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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 07:35 AM
FireBird77 wrote:
- Anyone who ever was in WWII tank turret know that
- hitting an AC with main tank gun is almost
- unpossible unless your shot would be EXTREMELY
- lucky...

I guess so,or a really skilled tanker. Still it wasn't unheard of though...

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 07:36 AM
HeavyDelta wrote:
- Wow.
-
- Fifty bucks flushed down the toilet.
-
- Thanks for being so cool guys.


What can I say? We try..../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 07:43 AM
Well, killing planes with a tank is ridiculous. I won't deny that a drunk or mad tanker could try it, but it's simply imposible. A tank turret cannot track a passing plane. It's simply too fast. That's why they were accompanied with AA vehicles like Whirbelwinds (or whatever).

- Dux Corvan -

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 08:00 AM
Interistingly, the M1A1 Abrams crews think they can shoot down helicopters with their main gun. The idea is that if the helicopter pops up from behind terrian to fire missles, they meet him with a blast from their main gun.

Course, that's a hovering helicopter.



A plane, no way... Unless you were to shoot him right in the butt after he makes a strafing pass. You might manage that.

There was a fellow in Africa who became famous for shooting birds out of the air. Someone finally got him to explain how, and he said "There's a trick to it. I wait until they are in a decnding circle over a body of water, then I aim for a point in the circle and wait for them to move into it. For a second, relative to me, they aren't moving. That second is long enough to shoot them down.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 08:01 AM
Yeah its true Tanks firing at planes should be removed..

It only uses valuable AI and net data space.

However they could make some tanks having a gunner on the turret with a MG.

Im not so sure how many WW2 tanks that had that, but todays tanks has, and if im not wrong thats what i.e the crew of a T72 tank uses for firing at helicopters or slow flying planes.

About the tanks of IL2 again:
I think its more likely that the tank crew would leave the tank, rush into the woods and scare a flock of birds that would fly into the plane and cause a birdstrike into the enemy planes, rather than using the main turret.

I say.. add more MG fire from the ground, whatever the shooter is, a tank or infantry etc etc..

Here is my comparison:
Its like the U-boat crew trying torpedoing a speedboat.. would they try?

Dont think so..

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 08:03 AM
I'm not saying it was standard procedure or was an accepted tactical procedure...I'm just saying in SOME cases it DID happen.

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 08:06 AM
It happened... and it was a total waste of time and ammo. But in FB they can hit you. That's absurd.

- Dux Corvan -

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 08:28 AM
If you guys think it is bad now, try playing the original IL2. You had to be very careful attacking tanks because they would hit you for sure, even at an altitude of several hundred meters, if you were not careful.

Like Necro has kept saying though, it happened more than you think. On the Eastern Front in particular it was not uncommon I am sure, since there were so many planes used in battles there.

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 08:52 AM
I don't think any sane tanker would risk a wild shot at an airplane when there is a chance of enemy armor nearby.

You ALWAYS keep a round in the tube in a combat environment.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 09:03 AM
I agree Baloban, but who's to say these reds WERE sane?

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 09:09 AM
They're all equally nuts in this game. Plenty of panzers have taken pot shots at me as well.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:28 AM
necrobaron wrote:
- Well,the tanks may have unlimited ammo and are too
- accurate(which of course IS inaccurate),all I'm
- saying that it DID happen in the war....
-

And you are perfectly right, a Rumanian assault pilot even recalled in an interview that he twice saw Hs-129s (one of which was flown by a german liaison officer) shot down by T-34 tanks.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 01:03 PM
nicli wrote:
-
- necrobaron wrote:
-- Well,the tanks may have unlimited ammo and are too
-- accurate(which of course IS inaccurate),all I'm
-- saying that it DID happen in the war....
--
-
- And you are perfectly right, a Rumanian assault
- pilot even recalled in an interview that he twice
- saw Hs-129s (one of which was flown by a german
- liaison officer) shot down by T-34 tanks.

Most tanks have several machine guns which can track aircraft. The T-34 is a little primitive, in that it only has two 7.62mm with a limited range of travel. However, as long as you're not buttoned up you can easily track aircraft with a handheld weapon. It's unlikely that a single brave tanker took down a Hs-129 with his PPSh, but a whole squad's worth of small arms fire could do it.

... which raises another question: why doesn't armor have machine guns? Where's the small arms fire? It would be perfectly reasonable... almost MANDATORY even for infantry and tank crews to shoot at airplanes with their MG and small arms. I guess the absurd main-gun-shooting is an attempt to make up for the lack of small arms fire.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 01:05 PM
there is a difference between trying your luck (as far as the tank commanders go) and systematic assault on enemy planes.

The first one is acceptable I think, but the latter one, which is now implemented in the game is indeed downright SILLY AND SHOULD BE REMOVED!

every time I see a turret of a tank turn to face my direction, I LAUGH IN THE AI'S FACE! Lol, how stupid can you go/be?

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 02:21 PM
I remember I was playing commanchee vs hokum (A great helicopter sim) and I wanted to take some screen shots of enemy armor. So I touched the helicopter down out of range of the machine guns they always shot at me with, so I could pay attention to the screen shots. The armor promptly turned those turrets around and let me have it with the big guns the instant I touched the ground. Clever AI that sim had. '

Course it had some horrid bugs in the dynamic mission planner half way through the campains, and it took a million rounds from the 20mm chain gun to kill an infantryman, but it had a great many good points as well.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 04:00 PM
I think it would be kind of cool to be able to fly over pitched battles in QMB, with enemy armor firing at EACH OTHER, and provide some in-the-nick-of-time close air support.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 04:13 PM
Bloody hell, not this again...

I think the last time this was an issue, people managed to dig up accounts which suggested that if an aircraft was flying directly towards a tank and not jinking around at all, providing it was a long enough attack run, it wasn't that difficult (and not that rare) for a tank to be able to hit an aircraft with its main gun.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 04:24 PM
I do it constantly.......but in BF 1942 Desert Combat /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 04:53 PM
Most unrealistic facet? How about that pilots ejecting can pass through the body of the plane and live? There's plenty of unrealistic facets.

I would prefer tank gunners to use the Co-ax MG and hull MG, but I'm happy with them firing the main gun. It doesn't happen often in FB, and if you get shot down by it then you're flying straight toward or away from the tank at low speed inside the elevation limits of the gun. I have never been hit by tank guns since starting FB, excluding the PzII and other tanks with 20mm cannon. Tanks _can't_ track you if you're moving fast across their field of view, and they won't fire if they don't think they can hit you.

Flexible AA machine guns are common on _American_ tanks. They were not anywhere near as common on Soviet or German tanks. The coax and the hull mgs were usually light MGs with regular old fashioned bullets, not API like on aircraft guns, so using the main gun is probably better than nothing.

I have also read that the modern MPAT round in US tanks is for use against helicopters and aircraft, by way of a proximity fuse and a combination of a fragmentation and a HEAT warhead.

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 05:15 PM
what about being able to bail out off a 262 , as far as know historicaly it was never attempted due to obvious reasons namely g force .

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 05:24 PM
My vote is for the flaps almost all being the same. Most planes have the same exact positions, combat,take-off and landing. In RL these planes had a tremendous variation in the arena of flap deployment. Some had two positions, some
three, some all the way up to as many as eight. Some only had one, which is modelled in some types, thank God. Some had infinitely variable where you could put out whatever amount you wanted to, like the C-172 I fly. The Cessna has notches but you can ignore the notches if you want. Anyway, it's always seemed weird to me that they went to great lengths to model most stuff accurately but largely ignored flaps.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 05:26 PM
To be fair to IL2, it used to be a problem, especially with the StuGs, but I haven't been shot down by a tank since getting IL2FB.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 05:32 PM
Ah???? What to come again on that statement.


Bartsimpson- wrote:
- what about being able to bail out off a 262 , as far
- as know historicaly it was never attempted due to
- obvious reasons namely g force .
-
-

Can you tell me how Obf. Heinz-Berthold of III./JG7 got out of W.Nr. 170778 to use his parachute to land near Hagenow. Or how the pilot, also from III./JG7, who parachuted to safety near Larz.

Both on Feb. 22 1945.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg


Message Edited on 08/25/0312:33PM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 07:27 PM
"My vote is for the flaps almost all being the same"

Oh yeah, that's another good one. Not all planes had the same flap settings!!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:25 AM
(1) Being peppered by AA and main guns from the Marat on your own airfield well beyond visual range of the ship. It's better in 1.1b but still very unrealistic.

(2) The Tank main gun stuff

(3) sometimes slammimg into the ground at a low angle at 350 kph, bouncing and sliding along for a kilometer until your plane finally comes to rest upside down and smoldering and still being alive. Can pilots be killed except when hit by bullets or when the plane explodes?

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 04:24 AM
- (3) sometimes slammimg into the ground at a low
- angle at 350 kph, bouncing and sliding along for a
- kilometer until your plane finally comes to rest
- upside down and smoldering and still being alive.
- Can pilots be killed except when hit by bullets or
- when the plane explodes?

You can also be killed by a burning engine or fuel if it's near the cockpit.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 04:47 AM
This was a problem in the original game. It could be solved by having the tanks with attached machine guns on top fire at us, while the turret remains fixed on ground targets or stays still.

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 04:50 AM
Flying right into a tanks main gun? I dont know who would do that. They have all the heavy armour in front. Attacks would be to the side or rear. The only gun on a tank that should be doing any firing at planes is the mg mounted on top. And if a plane is attacking thats one brave soul to have his head stuck out there lol. Of course in this game he would survive because strafing gun positions does not knock them out ie: no dead gunners on ships or anything else except the planes. They need to lose the tanks firing at planes and model smaller weapons getting knocked out from strafing. Attacking ships would still be near suicide, but if you did happen to make it across you might take a few gun positions with you. And just maybe the torpedo plane would stand a chance.

...and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been and there you long to return.
~leonardo de vinci

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 04:52 AM
bartsimpson wrote:

-what about being able to bail out off a 262 , as far as
-know historicaly it was never attempted due to obvious
-reasons namely g force .


Sorry man, there's actually a gun camera picture of a bailed-out ME262. The pilot was Franz Schall on Nov 8th, 1944. The picture is on page 29 of "German Jet Aces of World War 2" by Osprey publishing. There's another account of a bail-out on page 21.

Danger_Forward



Message Edited on 08/26/0303:56AM by DangerForward

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:34 AM
The Bogus190 damage model.


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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:38 AM
I would have to say plane movement when on ones 6 looks absolutly nothing like guncamera footage,

theres is no smoothness with the online stick yankers in the p39 yaks 190s and mig3u. It looks like the planes pivot needs alot of work to smooth it out and give the planes movement a more realistic appearance Thats the one thing that bugs me most about this sim


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fluke39
08-26-2003, 09:27 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- I would have to say plane movement when on ones 6
- looks absolutly nothing like guncamera footage,
-
- theres is no smoothness with the online stick
- yankers in the p39 yaks 190s and mig3u. It looks
- like the planes pivot needs alot of work to smooth
- it out and give the planes movement a more realistic
- appearance Thats the one thing that bugs me most
- about this sim
-

Do you mean when looking at your own plane's 6 in f2 view - or looking at another planes 6 from your own plane?

if you mean the first one - then i agree with you - and check this thread out - and see if you agree.

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zuyty

if you mean looking at another planes from your own plane - then i think it looks pretty real to me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:30 PM
Fluke both, but rear cam looks worse, lomac seems the same way in many of thier vids, but now with the planes i mentioned above seem pretty unrealistic looking, even alot of the ai moves pe2-3 many others.

If you see me on HL drop me a message and try to stay on my 6 and you will see what im talking about




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