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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 02:41 AM
Three weeks later, on November 5, 1942, he took off in a formation of four. After 15 minutes he saw russian aircraft and was ordered to lead to them. They were 18 russian Il-2 Sturmovik attack aircraft, escorted by 10 fighters. Despite the numerical disadvantage the four german fighters attacked the Sturmoviks. Hartmann engaged the leftmost Sturmovik, and opened fire from 100 meters. His rounds hit the target, but didn't damage the Sturmovik, which was the most armored aircraft in world war 2. He remembered an advice he got from one of the pilots and went further down, below the Sturmovik, almost to the ground, and closed distance. When he was almost under the Sturmovik, he pulled and fired to the side of its engine, right to its exhausts. This resulted in black smoke coming out of the Sturmovik which turned east to return to its base. Hartmann followed it, when it suddenly exploded. The explosion hit Hartmann's own engine which caught fire, and because of the low altitude he just crash landed. Luckily for him it was in german held territory, so he returned to base.
This was Erich Hartmann's first of 352 victories, including 61 Sturmoviks. It took three months before his second victory

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 02:41 AM
Three weeks later, on November 5, 1942, he took off in a formation of four. After 15 minutes he saw russian aircraft and was ordered to lead to them. They were 18 russian Il-2 Sturmovik attack aircraft, escorted by 10 fighters. Despite the numerical disadvantage the four german fighters attacked the Sturmoviks. Hartmann engaged the leftmost Sturmovik, and opened fire from 100 meters. His rounds hit the target, but didn't damage the Sturmovik, which was the most armored aircraft in world war 2. He remembered an advice he got from one of the pilots and went further down, below the Sturmovik, almost to the ground, and closed distance. When he was almost under the Sturmovik, he pulled and fired to the side of its engine, right to its exhausts. This resulted in black smoke coming out of the Sturmovik which turned east to return to its base. Hartmann followed it, when it suddenly exploded. The explosion hit Hartmann's own engine which caught fire, and because of the low altitude he just crash landed. Luckily for him it was in german held territory, so he returned to base.
This was Erich Hartmann's first of 352 victories, including 61 Sturmoviks. It took three months before his second victory

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 05:28 AM
nice...

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 05:34 AM
This should help noobs understand why they can't kill anything at first.

Da Buzz
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Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 07:09 AM
And notice no mention of the IL2's attempting to dogfight with him lol /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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Adjutant,Lt.Sepp
Jagdgeschwader 50 "Graf"
http://www.jg50.com/

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 07:12 AM
Yes - all newbies (as my self) find inspiration!

Anyone have more such real stories of ww2 air combat ? I enjoy reading things like this.

Please post!

Cheers
Shelton

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 08:03 AM
no no no


Hartman said at the time that all WWII aircraft were easy to fly and that in 60 years time, when such things become technically possible, even complete novices will be able to fly a simulated WWII aircraft and become aces with absolute ease http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 08:20 AM
Here is a passage from Heinz Knoke's book "I Flew for the Fuhrer"..a great read if any of you get the chance!


" Overhead,the sky is still streaked with vapour trails,stamped with the imprint of that eternal dog-fight.Suddenly the wingman beside me flicks his aircraft round and vanishes into the cloud bank.

So what the hell....?
In a flash I glance round,and then instinctively duck my head. There is a Thunderbolt sitting right on my tail, followed by seven more. All eight open fire. Thier salvoes slam into my plane. My right wing bursts into flames.

I spiral off to the left into the clouds. A shaddow looms ahead: it is a Thunderbolt. I open fire. Its tail is soon in flames.

Now I can see the ground. I jettison the canopy and am ready to bail out. There is another rat-tat-tat sound of machine-guns close to my ear and more hammer-blows hit my flaming crate. That Thunderbolt is there again, not 100 feet behind me.

Blast! I shall be chewed to mincemeat in his airscrew if I try to bail out now. I huddle down and crouch low in my seat,trying to make myself as small as possible. The armour plate at my back protects me from the otherwise fatal shots.Wings and fuselage are riddled. A large hole gapes beside my right leg. The flames are licking closer now: I can feel the heat.

Crash! The instrament panel flies into splinters in front of my eyes. Something strikes me on the head. Then my engine stops: not a drop of fuel left.

Blast! There is no chance for me now.
My forward speed,of course, rapidly decreases. This causes my opponent to overshoot and pass me. For a few seconds only he is in my sights; but it is a chance to take him with me. I press both triggers. I feel myself trembling all over from the nervous tension. If I can only take him with me!

My salvo scores a perfect bulls-eye right in the centre of his fuselage. He pulls up his smoking plane in a steep climb. In a moment he is in flames. The canopy opens and the body of the pilot emerges.

The ground comes up with a rush.Too late for me to bail out now. I cross some large fields. Down goes the nose and the plane settles. The flames come up reaching for my face. Earth flies into the air. There is a dull,heavy thud. The crate skids along in a cloud of dust,then diggs its own grave in the soft earth. I throw up my arms to cover my face, and brace my leggs against the rudder-bar. It is all over in a split second.Something crashes with stunning force on my head.

So this must be the end!! It is my last thought before losing consciousness.........

I have no recollection of getting clear of that burning wreck but I suppose I must have done so. Coherent thought is beyond me: there is only that dreadfull pain in my head. I remember bullets flying past my ears as the ammunition explodes. I stumble and fall, but somehow stagger to my feet again. My one idea is to get away before the final explosion. The bright flames consuming my aircraft contrast vividly against the dark smoke-pall rising into the sky behind it.

A second wreck is burning only a few hundred yards away. Dimly I realize that it must be my Yank. If only the pain would stop! My head! my head!-I hold it in both hands and sink to my knees. The world spins crazily in front of my eyes. I am overcome by recurrent nausea, until only the taste of green bile remains.

The other seven Thunderbolts keep diving at me. They are firing. It seems a long way to the edge of the field and comparative safety. I finally roll into the shallow ditch and pass out again. I am at the end of my tether.....

When next I recover consciousness, I become aware of a man standing motionless and staring down at me. He is as tall as a young tree---an American!

I try to sit up on the edge of the ditch. The big fellow sits down beside me. At first niether of us speak. It is all I can do to prop my elbows on my knees and hold my splitting head in my hands. Then the Yank offers me a cigarette. I thank him and refuse, at the same time offering him one of mine. He also refuses; so we both light up our own smokes.
"Was that you flying the Messerschmitt?"
"Yes."
" You wounded?"
"Feels like it."
"The back of your head is bleeding."
I can feel the blood trickling down my neck.
The Yank continues: "Did you really shoot me down?"
"Yes."
"But I dont see how you could! Your kite was a mass of flames."
"Don't I know it!"
The tall American explains how he spotted me above the clouds and went down after me with his men. "It sure seemed like a bit of luck," he added.

I ask him in turn: "What was your idea in getting out in front of me when my engine died?"
"Too much forward speed. Besides, it never occured to me that you would still be firing."
"That is where you made your mistake."
He laughs. "Guess I'm not the first you bagged, am I?"
"No; you are my twenty sixth."


Sorry for such long story but I didnt feel like I could do it any justice leaving out anything.,S!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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Adjutant,Lt.Sepp
Jagdgeschwader 50 "Graf"
http://www.jg50.com/ ( <A HREF=)" target=_blank>http://www.jg50.com/</a>



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Adjutant,Lt.Sepp
Jagdgeschwader 50 "Graf"
http://www.jg50.com/

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 08:22 AM
WOW - wondeful! Love it


Shelton

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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 08:56 AM
I just finished Erich Hartmanns autobiography "Blond knight of Germany" which states (as far as I can remember) that Hartmann during his first combat sortie ever achieved the following results:

* Overshot his wingleader and thus failed to cover him as wingman and in the same time prevented him from opening fire on his target.

* Opened fire at an aprox distance of 300m thus failing to score any hits and allowing the target to take evasive action

* Failed to turn the R/T on thus failing to here his wingleaders orders

* Tried to evade an presumed hostile a/c and consequently opened fire on the a/c that turn out to be his wingleader

* Got lost and due to fuel shortage had to make a crashlanding wrecking the plane in the process.

Erich Hartmann was at this time a NOOB but learned from his mistakes and became the highest scoring ace ever in history witha total tally of 352 victories.

Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.
/ Sun Tzu



Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.
/ Sun Tzu

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 10:44 AM
that right hartmann has make at begin mistake, but has the luck to learn from that,because survive this mistake,many has not this luck

most problem is aiming not fly,that need more time as learning fly

in game is aiming easier as real,real move you body by all maneuver so can you not good aim through revie

opponent that fly scissor maneuver was certain difficult to hit,because you can not good aim through revie,you body move
many by the maneuver

but in game not,because you body is fixedly

the second view with shift f1 is more realitic,there move the revie by maneuver strong,it sim the move from head by gs



Message Edited on 06/25/0301:39PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 11:02 AM
Hartmann made another mistake: Due to food-shortage, he & his buddies were starving at a time when Hitler himself were to inspect their base. Then someone send them a box of champagne & some brandy & they got incredibly drunk as they had not eaten for three days. At the inspection Hartmann had accidently stolen Hitlers cap - just before Der FĂŒhrer stepped by - someone slapped the cap of his head & gave him his own.

There are several versions of this story & I donâÂŽt know if any of them are true - but ItâÂŽs kinda funny. Btw - Hartmann was one of the very few persons allowed to carry his sidearm while speaking with Hitler at the HQs in Berlin. Hitler trusted him with his life.

S!

M0NS



"Blow up the outside world"

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My garage!

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 11:21 AM
If I remember correctly from the book, the binge drinking incident occured when Guenther Rall, Gerd Barkhorn, Hartmann and Heinz Baer(?) were going on a train to get their Iron Crosses with Oakleaves from Hitler. According to the book the conductor on the train recognized them and provided them with plenty of booze to show his appreciation on the ride to Bavaria from Berlin. The luftwaffe adjutant tried to make them sober with coffee and by making them stand outside in the cold. During that time Hartmann mistakenly put on Hitlers cap outside the Fuhrers office!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Noce

Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.
/ Sun Tzu

XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 12:08 PM
LOL, on several occasions, I've seen bullets ricochetting off against the hull of an Il-2. Anyone else saw that? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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Zayets
06-25-2003, 01:03 PM
Here's one about Ploiesti air raid:

On 1st August 1943, the USAAF conducted its second raid over Romania.

The Romanian and German AA defense near PloeâÂști was considerable. There were 36 heavy Flak batteries (164x88 mm guns) and 16 light batteries (210x20 or 37 mm automated guns), which fired 3552x88 mm shells and 56271x20 mm shells that day. There were also 71 balloons and the "Caterpillar" (an armored train packed with AA guns, which could easily be moved to the endangered part of the city) The FARR (Forțele Aeriene Regale RomĂąne - Royal Romanian Air Force) had five fighter squadrons one night fighter squadron and the Luftwaffe had three fighter squadrons and two night fighter squadrons. In total there were 108 fighters, but on 1st August, there were only 57 pilots available, the rest were on leave. But they managed to fly 123 sorties. The "show" was directed from the "Opera" (the code name of the Freya radar coordination center) in Bucharest

The 53rd Squadron, equipped with Me-109s, had only the alarm patrol on the airfield (in the Romanian Air Force, the patrol is a formation of 4 planes, composed of two cells of two planes each). Of. echip. Ioan Maga, slt. av. Fl. Zamfirescu, adj. av. Dumitru Encioiu and adj. av. Nicolae Sculi took off and made contact with the Americans at 14:13. But they were low on fuel and had to return to base after the first attacks. They caught up with the bombers and of. echip. Maga and adj. av. Encioiu got one each. The latter crash landed after he ran out of fuel. Slt. av. Zamfirescu damaged one, but it didn't go down, at least not in Romania.

The 6th FG, stationed at Pipera (near Bucharest) had 15 airplanes available, but only 12 pilots ready for action. They took off at 13:20 and made contact with the enemy at 13:50 in the area Crivina-PeriâÂș-Buftea. They attacked and prevented them to fly over Bucharest and forced them to change direction. Adj. av. Aurel Vlădăreanu shot down one enemy plane near PloeâÂști and adj. sef av. Dumitru Ilie had two probable kills. They were both in flames, but continued to fly and crossed the frontier. They probably fell in Bulgaria or in the Mediterranean. Lt. Carol Anastasescu was the high scorer of the day with 2 B-24s destroyed. Adj. av. Gheorghe CocebaâÂș crash landed, after having his engine turned into Swiss-cheese. The plane was repairable.

Lt. Carol Anastasescu got 2 bombers that day, but he was sot down and hardly survived the crash-landing. Let's hear him tell the story:

"In the morning of 1st August 1943, I was on duty on the Pipera airfield, replacing my comrade Teodor Nicolaescu, who was at his sisters' wedding. After we took the planes out of the hangar we sat down in lounge-chairs relaxed and calm, because usually, the alarm duty was boring. At 10:25 we received the order to exercise "extreme caution" and at 11 o'clock we were in our seats. We sat there for two hours strapped in our seats and in the flying suits under a killing sun. At 13:20 we took off, but our orders were to fly at 200 m, which was very unusual, because at that altitude dogfighting is very difficult, if not impossible. It was a big surprise for us to see a compact formation of bombers underneath us: there were American B-24s. They were practically flying wing next to wing, like they were at a parade. I ordered the attack. When we got close to the bombers, a stunning tracer barrage unleashed. I had the impression that all of them were aimed at my forehead and I felt a cold drops of sweat on my back. At 100 m I fired at part of the left wing where I knew were the fuel tanks, but nothing happened. To avoid the incoming fire from the machine-guns of the Liberator, I dove quickly and I almost crashed. When I managed to recover, the bombers were already under heavy fire from the AA artillery around PloeâÂști and some refineries were in flames. It was like hell. I closed up on the same B-24 and aimed for the same area of the wing, but still nothing happened. I came in for a third time and fired. In the same time I felt a powerful hit in my airplane. As I pulled up I saw the bomber going down in flames, but I was in the same situation. I opened the cockpit, but I was at 50 m and couldn't jump. I started to climb slowly, expecting to simply blow up in any second. I saw a B-24 coming at me, probably to give me the final blow. I was passing through horrible moments and couldn't bear any more. I didn't have any way out, so I decided to ram him and finish it quickly. He tried to avoid me, but was to late. I felt a powerful heat and then I woke up in the hospital"

The 45th Sqd. (4th FG) had 6 available airplanes on the TĂąrgâÂșor airfield. They took off at 13:30 and were flying at 1200 m, when they received orders at 14:00 from the radar station to descend to 100 m. They saw an enemy formation, which had already attacked the refineries and engaged them. Adj. av. stag. Ioan Nicola shot down another one, which fell south of the village Ogrezeni and adj. av. Ioan Bosinceanu also attacked a B-24, but ran out of ammo after only destroying the machine-gun turret on top of the bomber. They returned to the airfield and 4 of them took off again at 15:30. Slt. av. Cristu I. Cristu shot down a B-24 near ScroviâÂștea and lt. av. Ion BĂąrladeanu got 2xB-24. They crashed west of BilciureâÂști and north-east of ConteâÂștii de Sus.

The 51st Night Fighter Squadron was on the ZiliâÂștea airfield. Out the four Me-110s that took off, only cpt. av. Marin Ghica engaged the enemy near Bolintinu de Vale at 300 m. There were two B-24s and one of them was being attacked by a Me-109, so he attacked the other one. He fired at the left wing and the engine near the fuselage was soon in flames. He returned and fired on the other engine, but when he was pulling out the plane was hit really bad by the American machine-gunners. The flames soon entered the cockpit. He tried to gain some altitude in order to jump, but only the radio operator made it. Cpt. av. Ghica was found crushed, because his parachute didn't open.

The conclusion was that the IAR-80Cs of the 4th FG were more successful than the IAR-80Bs of the 6th FG, because they had 2 Ikaria 20 mm guns instead of 2x13.2 mm machine-guns as heavy weapons. The FARR lost 2 airplanes (one pilot dead, the other heavily wounded) and 2 were damaged. The Romanian fighter pilots destroyed 9 US bombers and damaged others. The Luftwaffe (69 sorties) destroyed seven, but lost two airplanes (both pilots dead) and nine were damaged.

The Germans shot down 7 B-24s, but lost 3 airplanes and another 9 were damaged.



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XyZspineZyX
06-25-2003, 11:54 PM
Like the story and the LOGO
LOL

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XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 12:04 AM
Sepp, amazing. Is the whole book that good? If so, I'm gonna have to pick it up.