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View Full Version : What the heck happend to the british car industry?



Bewolf
03-26-2008, 06:46 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/mar/26/automoti...ss&feed=networkfront (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/mar/26/automotive.mergersandacquisitions?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront)

So, an indian cheap car company bought up Jaguar, from Ford if I am not mistaken. I wonder, what happend to the british car industry? Nothing new, really, but I wonder. The UK once was one of the major european car manufacturers. But I do not see much left of this once rich tradition. With a few exceptions the bitish car industry is no more or in foreign hands. What happend in the last couple decades in Britain that resulted in such a desastrous way?

stalkervision
03-26-2008, 06:53 AM
Es ist Kaput!... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
03-26-2008, 07:02 AM
I believe your Kaput is kaputt. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-26-2008, 07:08 AM
Rolls Royce FTW!!!

stathem
03-26-2008, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
Rolls Royce FTW!!!

^^^owned by BMW now, keep up TB http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

stalkervision
03-26-2008, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
I believe your Kaput is kaputt. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WOLFMondo
03-26-2008, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
Rolls Royce FTW!!!

^^^owned by BMW now, keep up TB http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only the cars though. An engine with RR on it is still very much British.

roybaty
03-26-2008, 07:54 AM
They got Land Rover to.

stathem
03-26-2008, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
Rolls Royce FTW!!!

^^^owned by BMW now, keep up TB http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only the cars though. An engine with RR on it is still very much British. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yes..but only if it's in a plane.

Isn't Bentley still British owned, they make the best stuff anyway.

WOLFPLAYER2007
03-26-2008, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/mar/26/automoti...ss&feed=networkfront (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/mar/26/automotive.mergersandacquisitions?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront)

So, an indian cheap car company bought up Jaguar, from Ford if I am not mistaken. I wonder, what happend to the british car industry? Nothing new, really, but I wonder. The UK once was one of the major european car manufacturers. But I do not see much left of this once rich tradition. With a few exceptions the bitish car industry is no more or in foreign hands. What happend in the last couple decades in Britain that resulted in such a desastrous way?

In fact the brits never did something with impact in the motor industry...wih the exception of the Aston Martin..i believe that Germany and Italy were always the leaders in Europe, because in the world of course it is us.

foxyboy1964
03-26-2008, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by roybaty:
They got Land Rover to.

It was really Land Rover that they wanted. Jaguar hasn't made a profit for a while.

This whole sorry episode is really just another indication of the shift to the east in the global economy.

Europe needs to get used to the idea that we are now competing with giants in India and China. It seems to me that the only answer is for Europe to "get big". Of course we wont. The nationalists within Europe will see to that. Breaks my bloody heart.

stathem
03-26-2008, 08:47 AM
British workers still make cars in Britain. It's the owners of the name on the badge that is foreign in these cases; but that's not exactly unusual in any industry in these days of globalisation. Economies of scale mean that any small national manufacturer is going to struggle with develoment costs against a large multi-national.

The utter sh1te that our car industry turned out in the seventies wasn't particular to the UK, but that created the conditons that allowed our car makers to be dismembered and bought out by foriegn firms. In France and Italy, the governments were successful in helping their national car makers to ride out those particular storms. Only the niche manufacurers in Germany managed to hold out on their own, with some very good cars and marketing directions.

And then the economic aims of the UK governemt in the eightes and nineties, to make UK labour cheaper and easier to sack than the rest of Europe made our firms even more attractive to foreign owners.

Jag and Land Rover changing hands from Ford to Tata doesn't change any of that. I worry about Jag and how they will stand development costs now Tata is in charge. Hopefully they will be able to make money in their niche market, but it's a concern they will go the same way as Rover, unable to create new products.

But Uk engineering still plays a huge part in the car industry. Ricardo (look them up, of Sleeve valve fame) and Lotus spring to mind. UK designers are some of the best, and work the world over. It's a global playground now, and there's a lot more goes into a car than just the badge and who screws the different parts of it together.

Airmail109
03-26-2008, 10:49 AM
Theres also Mclaren, they built and designed most of the Mercedes SLR.

Also most of the F1 teams are based in the UK, with British engineering teams.

We still have Lotus which hands down are the best European Sports cars for their price. And we have lots and lots of other small-name hand built sports car companies in the UK. Hell we have more than Italy.

Let me fire off a quick list

Morgan
Caterham
Westfield
Ultima
Radical (compete in LeMans and did VERY well with their first car)
Noble
Ariel Motors

Airmail109
03-26-2008, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by WOLFPLAYER2007:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/mar/26/automoti...ss&feed=networkfront (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/mar/26/automotive.mergersandacquisitions?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront)

So, an indian cheap car company bought up Jaguar, from Ford if I am not mistaken. I wonder, what happend to the british car industry? Nothing new, really, but I wonder. The UK once was one of the major european car manufacturers. But I do not see much left of this once rich tradition. With a few exceptions the bitish car industry is no more or in foreign hands. What happend in the last couple decades in Britain that resulted in such a desastrous way?

In fact the brits never did something with impact in the motor industry...wih the exception of the Aston Martin..i believe that Germany and Italy were always the leaders in Europe, because in the world of course it is us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd say Japan were the world leaders for family cars, and I'd say Europe are the world leaders for Sports cars and motor racing.

Bremspropeller
03-26-2008, 11:01 AM
I always liked the Lotus Elise http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

But I'd prefer a good ole Porsche 911 (current model is called 997) over any other sportscar.

Airmail109
03-26-2008, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
I always liked the Lotus Elise http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

But I'd prefer a good ole Porsche 911 (current model is called 997) over any other sportscar.

To many people have Porsche's including hair dressers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

I like the GT3 though. But If I had the money for a GT3, I'd have Lotus build me a 400hp Exige

foxyboy1964
03-26-2008, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
Theres also Mclaren, they built and designed most of the Mercedes SLR.

Also most of the F1 teams are based in the UK, with British engineering teams.

We still have Lotus which hands down are the best European Sports cars for their price. And we have lots and lots of other small-name hand built sports car companies in the UK. Hell we have more than Italy.

Let me fire off a quick list

Morgan
Caterham
Westfield
Ultima
Radical (compete in LeMans and did VERY well with their first car)
Noble
Ariel Motors

Those companies all make great cars, I love Morgans and Caterhams, but they are all small scale, specialist producers. I'm stretching a point here but my local Tesco probably provides employment for more people than all of those companies put together. Britain really needs to shake of this "little islander" mentality. We need to be able to compete globaly, in the mass market. The way things are going right now I don't see any prospect of that. It's very sad.

Bremspropeller
03-26-2008, 11:11 AM
You'd propably rather like a GT2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

foxyboy1964
03-26-2008, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
But If I had the money for a GT3, I'd have Lotus build me a 400hp Exige

So would I http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Airmail109
03-26-2008, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by foxyboy1964:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Theres also Mclaren, they built and designed most of the Mercedes SLR.

Also most of the F1 teams are based in the UK, with British engineering teams.

We still have Lotus which hands down are the best European Sports cars for their price. And we have lots and lots of other small-name hand built sports car companies in the UK. Hell we have more than Italy.

Let me fire off a quick list

Morgan
Caterham
Westfield
Ultima
Radical (compete in LeMans and did VERY well with their first car)
Noble
Ariel Motors

Those companies all make great cars, I love Morgans and Caterhams, but they are all small scale, specialist producers. I'm stretching a point here but my local Tesco probably provides employment for more people than all of those companies put together. Britain really needs to shake of this "little islander" mentality. We need to be able to compete globaly, in the mass market. The way things are going right now I don't see any prospect of that. It's very sad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point.

Britain needs to focus on specialist high tech gear still. The Chinese can churn out mass produced cars, whilst we build stuff for people with taste and for winning races.

It would be nice to have big manufacturing back but I don't ever see it happening, we need to focus on cutting edge technology like Japan. China's always going to beat us at the mass market game, we need to stay one step ahead of them in terms of tech. I think Japans on the right track, Chinas economic base is already old world.

foxyboy1964
03-26-2008, 11:19 AM
Yeah, having Hi Tech is fine as far as it goes, but for a healthy economy we need to have high employment with good paying jobs. I'm not saying ignore Hi Tech, far from it, but a few small companies employing a handful of people each isn't going to help the budget defecit.

Airmail109
03-26-2008, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by foxyboy1964:
Yeah, having Hi Tech is fine as far as it goes, but for a healthy economy we need to have high employment with good paying jobs. I'm not saying ignore Hi Tech, far from it, but a few small companies employing a handful of people each isn't going to help the budget defecit.

I think we should give lots of Japanese businessmen citizenship then put them in Whitehall. Their economy seems to be good. Apart from the aging population bit and their losing some exports because Americas economy is taking a downturn.

Airmail109
03-26-2008, 11:27 AM
"Government-industry cooperation, a strong work ethic, mastery of high technology, and a comparatively small defense allocation have helped Japan advance with extraordinary speed to become one of the largest economies in the world."

All of which our governments have failed to do. I hate Thatcher. I really do.

foxyboy1964
03-26-2008, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
I think we should give lots of Japanese businessmen citizenship then put them in Whitehall.

Oh yeah, I would vote for that. If we could even get Whitehall and business leaders in Britain to accept Japanese style responsibility that would be a start. In this country all they care about is their own jobs, in Japan the politicians etc have a sort of Samuria approach i.e. failure is not acceptable. Have you seen the way our lot are trying to cover up their expenses? Scandalous.

Aaron_GT
03-26-2008, 11:45 AM
I think we should give lots of Japanese businessmen citizenship then put them in Whitehall. Their economy seems to be good.

Er... Japan's economy has been in the doldrums for nearly 20 years, and has dealt with a very nasty housing price crash, and government debt is about 120% of GDP. It recently came out of recession after a very long period, but might be about to go back into it. So I am not sure it's doing that well overall, but it is more export focussed, which is not a bad thing. There are probably things to be learned from Japan, but to suggest that the Japanese economy is doing very well compared to that of the UK is wide of the mark at the moment. Things could change, of course!

JG53Frankyboy
03-26-2008, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by stathem:
................
Isn't Bentley still British owned, they make the best stuff anyway.

Bentley is owned by VolksWagen nowadays...... that is owned to a big margin by Porsche actually now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WOLFPLAYER2007
03-26-2008, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFPLAYER2007:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/mar/26/automoti...ss&feed=networkfront (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/mar/26/automotive.mergersandacquisitions?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront)

So, an indian cheap car company bought up Jaguar, from Ford if I am not mistaken. I wonder, what happend to the british car industry? Nothing new, really, but I wonder. The UK once was one of the major european car manufacturers. But I do not see much left of this once rich tradition. With a few exceptions the bitish car industry is no more or in foreign hands. What happend in the last couple decades in Britain that resulted in such a desastrous way?

In fact the brits never did something with impact in the motor industry...wih the exception of the Aston Martin..i believe that Germany and Italy were always the leaders in Europe, because in the world of course it is us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd say Japan were the world leaders for family cars, and I'd say Europe are the world leaders for Sports cars and motor racing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you kidding me? GM is the world's largest car manufacturer.

blairgowrie
03-26-2008, 02:10 PM
GM used to be.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6586679.stm

RAF_OldBuzzard
03-26-2008, 02:15 PM
I owned a British built car once.

'58 TR-3...it had Lucas electrics, and SU updraft carbs.

That was enough to put me off Brit cars forever!

Airmail109
03-26-2008, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by RAF_OldBuzzard:
I owned a British built car once.

'58 TR-3...it had Lucas electrics, and SU updraft carbs.

That was enough to put me off Brit cars forever!

Lotus's are fine, I have a friend with an Exige. The thing rocks it really does. Reliable as well.

Italian sports cars are just as bad.

Aaron_GT
03-26-2008, 03:24 PM
Also not all Japanese car manufacturers are Japanese owned. Nissan's owned by Renault, and last time I heard, run by a Brazillian.

Messaschnitzel
03-26-2008, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:

Er... Japan's economy has been in the doldrums for nearly 20 years, and has dealt with a very nasty housing price crash, and government debt is about 120% of GDP. It recently came out of recession after a very long period, but might be about to go back into it. So I am not sure it's doing that well overall, but it is more export focussed, which is not a bad thing. There are probably things to be learned from Japan, but to suggest that the Japanese economy is doing very well compared to that of the UK is wide of the mark at the moment. Things could change, of course!

Japan has been outsourcing a lot of their work for a long time now to other countries where labor is cheaper. Also, the work ethic of the younger Japanese is not the same as their post WW2 parents and grandparents. They have the same problems that occur with children born with affluent parents, with the children being raised in an atmosphere of having things given to them, instead of working for them. This tends not to mix well with the "Samurai ethic" that has caused Japan to succeed as well as it has in the past.

Japan has a large number of foreigners with work visas now. With the population aging as it is, the need to import and employ a foreign work force, and the need to outsource to keep cost down will only increase as time goes on.
Japan is now relying on outside technology in some instances to keep them in the saddle.

Here are some articles about outsourcing in Japan:

Outsourcing Drug Manufacturing (http://www.drugresearcher.com/news/ng.asp?n=72844-research-and-markets-japan-contract-manufacturing)

Outsourcing (http://www.sharedxpertise.com/file/1329/philippines-plans-to-tap-japanese-outsourcing-market.html)

Software Outsourcing (http://www.supplychainer.com/50226711/chinese_enterprise_software_market_is_growing_than ks_to_japanese_outsourcing_policy.php)

WOLFPLAYER2007
03-26-2008, 04:37 PM
Japanese cars have no room for legs and also their pickup trucks are bad, im 6'5 and when i got in a Corolla i felt like a sardine in a canister.

Im not trying to be flag waving patriot here, but our cars cant be the best in performance but surely are the best in confort.

WOLFPLAYER2007
03-26-2008, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RAF_OldBuzzard:
I owned a British built car once.

'58 TR-3...it had Lucas electrics, and SU updraft carbs.

That was enough to put me off Brit cars forever!

Lotus's are fine, I have a friend with an Exige. The thing rocks it really does. Reliable as well.

Italian sports cars are just as bad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Ferrari F40 is a ****in legend dude, it kicks ***.

Badsight-
03-26-2008, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by WOLFPLAYER2007:
The Ferrari F40 is a ****in legend dude, it kicks ***.
it was the first Supercar - but that has nothing to do with how reliable it is does it

Ferrari's from the 70's are notorious for bad electrics

FlatSpinMan
03-27-2008, 09:22 AM
About two years ago the total number of registered foreigners living in Japan (this includes people of Korean andChinese descent who have lived here for 2-3 generations but for reasons never applied for or been awarded Japanese citizenship) passed the 1% mark. Japan remains one of the world's most staggeringly mono-cultural countires in the world. This is not to say that there aren't quite a few foreign people about the place, especially in the main centres, but in future the government here will need to seriously consider allowing more foreign workers to enter just to keep things running.

FlatSpinMan
03-27-2008, 09:26 AM
As for the original topic, IMO the British car industry just faded into obscurity in line with the decrease in Britain's significance. Fabulous place to visit I thought, probably great to live there too but it's small size and marginal location are once more gradually returning it to the sidelines of world events. Ignoring the UK's history from 17th to 20th centuries where it really punched above it's weight, that's probably to be expected.

Airmail109
03-27-2008, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by FlatSpinMan:
As for the original topic, IMO the British car industry just faded into obscurity in line with the decrease in Britain's significance. Fabulous place to visit I thought, probably great to live there too but it's small size and marginal location are once more gradually returning it to the sidelines of world events. Ignoring the UK's history from 17th to 20th centuries where it really punched above it's weight, that's probably to be expected.

Don't see why If has invested or do invest why we shouldn't have a stronger technology based economy however.

Anyway eventually everythings got to even out, even China is losing manufacturing now because workers are demanding higher pay.

Messaschnitzel
03-27-2008, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by FlatSpinMan:
About two years ago the total number of registered foreigners living in Japan (this includes people of Korean andChinese descent who have lived here for 2-3 generations but for reasons never applied for or been awarded Japanese citizenship) passed the 1% mark. Japan remains one of the world's most staggeringly mono-cultural countires in the world. This is not to say that there aren't quite a few foreign people about the place, especially in the main centres, but in future the government here will need to seriously consider allowing more foreign workers to enter just to keep things running.

For about 15 years, my wife (originally from Italy) had a business importing Italian goods to Japan. She is still in contact with her former Japanese business partner still living in Tokyo. He still has difficulty with English, so they will converse in Japanese. (BTW, This guy is descended from Korean immigrants from the turn of the 20th century, and said that even now he is sometimes discriminated against in subtle ways.)

Anyway, my wife was having a discussion with him about the situation there. He said that there are foreign domestic workers in private health care, and other places in the private sector that are undocumented. They are mostly Filipinas and Indonesians that he said he saw and read about.

My wife said that Japan is a difficult place to live if you are to attempt to permanently live there. Another person teaching ESL for a couple of years in Nagasaki told me this: "They love you as long as you are a tourist, but when they find out that you are going to stay, they treat you if you don't exist." I could see why the need for undocumented domestic help is at odds with the laws and attitudes of the land. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I think that attitude explains why the garbage truck only come out at night. Garbage doesn't exist in Japan! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif