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View Full Version : Browning & Maxim Machine Guns.........



LEBillfish
09-23-2006, 10:08 AM
On what WWII planes were either fixed or flexible versions/varients of these guns mounted noting both the plane/military gun model/caliber or mm by nationality?

Sergio_101
09-23-2006, 10:21 AM
I don't know about Maxim guns on WWII aircraft.
Seems un likely.

But Brownings were on most Allied bombers, torpedo,
attack and many trainers in fixed. flexable
and turret mounts.

Fixed Brownings were also on most Allied fighters.

Calibers were .30 (US 1906), .303 British and .50 cal.
I would not at all surprised to see them in other calibres.

Sergio

LEBillfish
09-23-2006, 10:35 AM
A Maxim is a Vickers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

NonWonderDog
09-23-2006, 10:46 AM
Most guns mounted on WWI aircraft were Maxim variants, but I can't really think of anything reasonably close to a Maxim mounted on an aircraft in WWII.

AH! The Fairey Swordfish used .303 Vickers. I can't think of any others.

Friendly_flyer
09-23-2006, 10:51 AM
No, rather the Vickers MGs are Maxims. Hiram Maxim started making guns in London in the 1880's, but was later bought out by Vickers.

Maxims was used all over Europe, but they where clarely infantry guns. A German WWI Maxim had a weight of 26,6 kg (58,5 lb). The later Vickers aircraft gunns was considerably lighter.

DuxCorvan
09-23-2006, 10:52 AM
The eight .303 in early Spitfires and Hurricanes were also Vickers guns.

p1ngu666
09-23-2006, 11:11 AM
blehiem, fairey battle

hampden may of too. what where the guns on the betty? more like lewis guns maybe?

LEBillfish
09-23-2006, 11:23 AM
I think you all are missing the point....One I hoped you might look up. The Maxim and the Browning built before WWI were pretty much two primary designs (even they similar) for most MG's and even some cannon used by all nations in WWII on aircraft.

Japanese type 89's were licensed Vickers, Ho-103 12.7mm, and Ho-5 20mm, as well as Ho-155 30mm and other Japanese guns and cannon were licensed Brownings.

The list goes on, that list with the nationality, designation, caliber and so on I thought would be interesting to compile here. Once the list complete, it most likely showing how 1 mans idea done well, can have vast affect on many. None exactly the same, yet for all intensive purposes Maxim's or Browning's.

Ex.
IJAFC/Type 89/7.7mm x 58SR/Vickers/Type 91,92,95,97 Fighter, Type 1 Fighter,Type 2"Kou",
Type 2 twin engined Fighter, ype 3 Fighter"Kou",Type 99 tactical Recon

IJAFC/Ho-103/12.7mm x 81SR/Browning/Type 1 fighter model 1"Otu",Type 2fighter model 2"Kou", from Type 3fighter "Kou", from Type 5 fighter model 1,Ki-102"Otu"Ki-108,Type 4 Hevy bomber,Type 99 tactical Recon

Sergio_101
09-23-2006, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
The eight .303 in early Spitfires and Hurricanes were also Vickers guns.

All references I have or can find on line show
brownings in .303 British for Mk1 Spits.
No other machine guns listed.
Same for Hurricanes.

even later marks it's Brownings for rifle and
heavy MG calibres.

Still digging.

Sergio

SaQSoN
09-23-2006, 01:54 PM
Russian PV-1 machine gun was modified Russian 7,62mm Maxim M1910 version with air-cooled barrel. It was only intended as fixed gun, no turret version existed. Could be used as synchronized. Designed in 1924. ROF increased from 600 rpm to 750 rpm, weight lowered from 18.43 kg (water not included) to 14.5 kg.
In mass production since 1926 until 1940.

Was used on R-5 (some versions), I-15bis, early I-16, R-10, some other less notorious (non-mass production) aircraft and many other designs, which did not take part in WWII.

p1ngu666
09-23-2006, 07:50 PM
browning design, but maybe made by vickers. vickers was, and still is a big "group"

Sergio_101
09-23-2006, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
browning design, but maybe made by vickers. vickers was, and still is a big "group"

I believe the reason for the Browning becoming
dominant in Allied aircraft is the adaptability
of the ammunition feed.
Ammo can be fed left, right and by belt, link or chute.

Nice to have this flexability if your stuffing the guns in wings.

i flew on a B-24 and a b-17 last week, I spent
a lot of time looking at the ammunition feed
mechanisms. The complexity for a 1930's design is amazing!
Especially the Ball turret ammo feeds.

Sergio.

LEBillfish
09-23-2006, 09:21 PM
Well, now that we have established that Brownings & Maxim design Vickers are similar, what other guns can we list in the format set above?.......SaSQoN pointed out one I never heard of, what others?

Aaron_GT
09-24-2006, 02:04 AM
How do designs such as the Vickers K relate to the Maxim design?

Fox_3
09-24-2006, 06:26 AM
The VGO or K gun has no connection with Maxim designs. It was a follow on from the Vickers Berthier LMG, which resembled the Bren Gun.

leitmotiv
09-24-2006, 06:47 AM
Read the educational A SOCIAL HISTORY OF THE MACHINE GUN by John Ellis. Hiram Maxim, an American, invented the machine gun, and all the water-cooled machine guns used in WWI, whether Entente or Central Powers, were based on his patent. The Vickers was just a patent Maxim, the Browning was a patent Maxim, and the "Spandau" was a patent Maxim. Another excellent source is the three volumes of FLYING GUNS which tell the story of airborne automatic weapons from WWI to the present day. The Spitfire and Hurricane never carried Vickers machine guns. They and all the early WWII RAF aircraft used American Brownings of .303 caliber instead of .30 caliber. The Vickers K Gun was a 1930s weapon intended to replace the venerable, once again, American, Lewis Gun which had been the standard RAF aerial defensive machine since 1915. The K Gun was drum-fed, like the Lewis, and this made it obsolete. In most RAF bombers it was replaced by the belt-fed .303 Browning.

LEBillfish
09-24-2006, 09:49 AM
Actually there was a difference between the Maxim and the Browning (of which no doubt Browning altered the concept) that being;

Wherein the Maxim used the frorce of the shot to drive back the bolt and work the action/etc., Browning made his where exaust gas recirculated back and did the work....Most likely giving the gun more umf....and yes, the Maxim/Spandau/Vickers all fall in line. Makes me wonder where the Spandau(Maxim) falls in on the German side of things yet no one is posting answers.

leitmotiv
09-24-2006, 09:55 AM
All were from the Maxim patent---there were big differences between each based on national needs, of course. Try reading the books or go to the Aberdeen Proving Grounds. Forums are not haunts of ordnance specialists.

NonWonderDog
09-24-2006, 10:28 AM
MG08 is a Maxim, but I don't know which WWII planes used it.

Sergio_101
09-24-2006, 11:05 AM
The Browning we are speaking of is the delayed recoil or "short recoil".
type of operation, not gas.
Adding to the list of calibres for the Browning, 6.5x55mm Sweedish
and 7.62x51 (.308 Win) NATO.
Also 7.93mm (8mm) Mauser.

"Browning Automatic Rifle" is gas operated.

Sergio

LEBillfish
09-24-2006, 11:22 AM
IJAFC:
Type BI, 7.7mm/Vickers/Unknown

Type 89/7.7mm x 58SR/Vickers/Type 91,92,95,97 Fighter, Type 1 Fighter,Type 2"Kou",
Type 2 twin engined Fighter, ype 3 Fighter"Kou",Type 99 tactical Recon

Ho-103/12.7mm x 81SR/Browning/Type 1 fighter model 1"Otu",Type 2fighter model 2"Kou", from Type 3fighter "Kou", from Type 5 fighter model 1,Ki-102"Otu"Ki-108,Type 4 Hevy bomber,Type 99 tactical Recon

Type 1,Ho-103 flexible machine gun/12.7mm x 81SR/Browning/Type 97 hevy bomber,Type 4 hevy bomber

Type 1,Ho-103 turret machine gun/12.7mm x 81SR/Browning/Type 100 Heavy Bombers turret and
Early model Type 4 Bombers turret

Ho-5 Cannon/20mm x 94/Browning/Type 1fighter model 3,Type 2 fighter,from Type 3 Fighter model 2,Type 4 fighter, from Type 5 model 1,Ki-96,Ki-102,Type 100 com Recon model 3 night,Type 4 hevy bomber

Ho-105 Cannon/30mm x /checking/Ki-84-1c, Ki-200 and Ki-202 (Japanese version of Me163)

Ho-155 Cannon/30mm x 114/Browning/Ki-83,Ki-87,Ki-94,Ki-102"Hei"

Ho-204 Cannon/37mm x 144/Browning/Type 100 com Recon model 3 (Air defense model)

Ho-401 Cannon/57mm x 121R/Browning/Ki-102"Otu"

IJN:
Germany:
Soviet Union:
Italy:
Great Britain:
United States:
France:

Aaron_GT
09-24-2006, 12:04 PM
The Vickers K Gun was a 1930s weapon intended to replace the venerable, once again, American, Lewis Gun which had been the standard RAF aerial defensive machine since 1915. The K Gun was drum-fed, like the Lewis, and this made it obsolete.

Thanks for the info on the source of the Vickers K design.

I've often wondered about the Hampden. This used Vickers K including the fixed pilot gun. Was the pilot gun reloadable, or was 97 rounds your lot?. Brownings would have been better, although given the confines I am not sure that a twin Browning mount could be belt fed and get sufficient traverse, but then the managed it on the Boston, so maybe. A single nose Browning would have made much more sense than a Vickers K, even if the others were still Vickers.