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View Full Version : Why exactly do you think that the Luftwaffe had superior airplanes early in the war?



XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 05:22 PM
I read a lot of postings here from poeple who think that they are already making a point by just stating that the 109 does not outclass a contemporary VVS plane in every respect.

Why is this? Just because of the difference in kill counts?

I don't think that technical difference was the main reason for this. Just imagine the following mission setup in FB:

On the red side you have a couple of flights with very strictly defined goals. One flight is escorting some bombers with orders to maintain very close formation with the bombers and with the other fighters. A second is supposed to protect a spot of land by circling it at low altitude, a third is strafing some ground targets. All flights have strict orders to not actively engage enemy fighters, they are just allowed to defend themselves when coming under attack.

On the blue side the mission is simple: roam the skies, seek out easy targets and engage at will.

If you now add a general rule that noobs must fly red and Experten blue, I think we finally have a mission which could give us an idea about the air war at the eastern front, at least up to the end of '42.

Do you really think that 10 km/h more or less or 1 m/s roc moe or less would make any difference in this scenario?

And one last thing: I'm very grateful for everyone who makes an effort of comparing real test data with what we have in the game, like Wastel did recently. I just want to contest the assumption that Luftwaffe must have had superior planes to explain the respective losses of VVS and Luftwaffe in the war.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 05:22 PM
I read a lot of postings here from poeple who think that they are already making a point by just stating that the 109 does not outclass a contemporary VVS plane in every respect.

Why is this? Just because of the difference in kill counts?

I don't think that technical difference was the main reason for this. Just imagine the following mission setup in FB:

On the red side you have a couple of flights with very strictly defined goals. One flight is escorting some bombers with orders to maintain very close formation with the bombers and with the other fighters. A second is supposed to protect a spot of land by circling it at low altitude, a third is strafing some ground targets. All flights have strict orders to not actively engage enemy fighters, they are just allowed to defend themselves when coming under attack.

On the blue side the mission is simple: roam the skies, seek out easy targets and engage at will.

If you now add a general rule that noobs must fly red and Experten blue, I think we finally have a mission which could give us an idea about the air war at the eastern front, at least up to the end of '42.

Do you really think that 10 km/h more or less or 1 m/s roc moe or less would make any difference in this scenario?

And one last thing: I'm very grateful for everyone who makes an effort of comparing real test data with what we have in the game, like Wastel did recently. I just want to contest the assumption that Luftwaffe must have had superior planes to explain the respective losses of VVS and Luftwaffe in the war.

XyZspineZyX
09-19-2003, 05:31 PM
as us Oleg show´s the Luftwaffe didn´t had have the better Planes /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

but what greatful Pilots they must had !

http://mitglied.lycos.de/kubanskiloewe/110missing.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 03:29 PM
Well for 1941 server it is quite hard for LW, probably much harder than it was in real life. Meaning the current modelling of German weapons, such as MG17. Meaning you can't down a I-16 with BF-109 F2 MGs. Also Lagg3 DM and FM are not exactly accurate, same goes for Migs. Meaning, they don't bleed E like they did in real life.. Lagg3 FM is the worst. This plane is invulnerable for German MG17 (inculding when you fire at vital parts, such as engine) .. if you dont believe, do a QMB test, pick 8 heinkels and fly straight to their back gunners fire. And they can't shoot you down. PK is the only problem.. Lagg3 has also issues with overheating and superb climbrate. In this game, Lagg3 climbs some 17M/S without overheating. You can chase a BF-109 F-2, and eventually catch it because your engine does not overheat. Russian weapons are also lot more efficient in this game, meaning 1300 Shkas rounds of I-16 does much more damage, than you can inflict with 2000 ammo of MG17.

Also 1941 year is hard for LW, mostly because of crippled sounds.. meaning you cant bounce air planes, like in real life. If I fly in I-16, I can hear a bouncing I-16 from 6clock high. This prevents surprise kills for LW, which was critical tactics for LW on early war.

LW did have superior planes in 1941, meaning they had climb and speed advantages. And they had good guns. This is not so in FB, meaning we are missing some top speed and RPM, while at the same time planes like Lagg3 do not overheat, and can catch you easily, which was not possible in real life..

IF you don't believe it, take a look at VEF-statistics. They fly year 1941. Fortunalety, it is easier for LW in year 1944.. 41-43 are hard time for LW.

So I am saying 1m/s is not much, but compare it to Lagg3 climbing almost 10m/s too good, german ability to shoot I-16, I-153, Lagg3 down with 15mm and MG17.. those things does make a difference for current game balance.. which strongly favours russians for 1941.. Fortunalety MG151/20 and MG/FF feels about right.

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 03:45 PM
You might not believe that i am actually saying this... But ME109`s were better then any soviet fighter of ealry war. And it`s not my opinion, it`s opinion of those who actually flew them. According to Pokrishkin first good match for 109`s was P-39. Hands down better in turnfight and could compete on vertical...if flown correctly. But i have to say that most of early war era soviet birds could easily win low altitude turnfight. Well, germans were aware of that.

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:11 PM
the only thing to compete with the 109F was the MIG3

LAGG-3 ????? get serious !

"varnish guaranteed coffin" rulz !

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:20 PM
they took half of europe in 10 months, thats saying something, im not sure but it says something maybe something to do with cheese?

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 04:57 PM
Bobsqueek wrote:
- they took half of europe in 10 months, thats saying
- something, im not sure but it says something maybe
- something to do with cheese?

But on the other hand they also lost a lot of planes in the early years of the war.

When they invaded the Netherlands they lost around 350 aircraft (fighters but mostly bombers and transport planes) but still, not so impressive from a military point of view, loosing so many aircraft to an inferior country.

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 05:11 PM
This thread is in the wrong place.


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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 05:28 PM
Why exactly do you think that Leonardo da Vinci was a man? Because of the beard? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Luftwaffe won air superiority during Spanish Civil War when appeared in that until then "balanced" theatre. Just experience? VVS and Spanish Soviet-by trained pilots were more experienced than LW pilots by then. It's true that German air tactics and experience evolutioned a lot during this and early stages of WW2, but everybody knows that, if not Bf 109 E -a difficult plane- Fw 190 had a technological edge above all existant opponents by 1942. This can't be felt in the game.

Even so, it's sure that it's not posible to say that a plane is "porked" until it's flown the proper way. Then, you can see the trouble is not as evident.

The fact is that we have what we have, and it isn't that bad. It's a game, and we can play it and enjoy it if we overlook those little issues. It's rather accurate, although, yes, I think -and say "think" because I have never been in a real WW2 fighter- that VVS planes have been a bit "heated". (Personal opinions that, as "Dirty Harry" says, are like arses, everybody has one) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 05:29 PM
didnt the germans get loads of ground kills and take off kills etc in the early war?

XyZspineZyX
09-25-2003, 05:34 PM
Please continue in general Discussion

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Message Edited on 09/25/0305:36PM by EURO_Snoopy