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Arms1
06-24-2005, 07:21 PM
this has been posted before but i thought i would put it up again just to refresh some memories
http://mnemeth1.brinkster.net/movies/EAA_Interviews.wmv

VW-IceFire
06-24-2005, 08:00 PM
Let the debates begin.

My 0.02 cents: Those are not the same as fully decked out operational warbirds.

Badsight.
06-24-2005, 08:37 PM
thats right , the 109 is missing water & methanol mix in its tank

whilst the Mustang is missing all 6 of its Machine-Guns & its 300+ Kg of ammo

(the 109 also has no ammo)

fordfan25
06-24-2005, 09:13 PM
at the same time the 109 is missing its guns and ammo as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LeadSpitter_
06-24-2005, 10:18 PM
That video is from aces high at a very old eaa convention, you cant really judge anything they say with out speaking of air speeds and altitudes.

Like for example low alt fully fueled p51d vs the ha1112 they call a g6, I doubt both aircraft are fully fueled. Most likely its a low speed turn fight in where the airshow pilots fly.

Im not sure what thier ha1112 is running fuel wise, I wonder if maybe over 80 octane.

If you say it that way then its absolutely correct and really no big suprise to any of us in the community at all. The 109g6 can outclimb and out turn the p51d lower speeds and lower altitude, but still the p-51 is about 40km/h quicker on the deck, but then look at the turn rates past 350 mph between the g6 and p51b c and d, in many mock dogfight trials and other testing documents and training films.

Same goes for the spitfire clipped wing roll rate and the fw190 low speed roll rate which was much better then the p38 p47 and p51 but then higher speed the 38 p47 51 surpass the fw190 and spitfire mk5 clipped wing roll rates.

In the original unedited video skip speaks of being able to take on 5-6 p51s without a doubt of loosing the fight saying the g6 is that good which is really a spanish ha1112.

In the original video he also speaks of the rudder and degrees of nose deflection it had over the p51d and most other fighters in the original clip which dont seem to be in this one, and that is definatly a huge advantage in a dogfight.

Dont forget the ha112 spanish version of the 109 with merlin engine is what they fly and call a 109 g6.

whats funny is the game they are talking about is aces high but now with the nuclear 20mm it reminds you of this game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Did you edit this video arms because i have not seen this version of it.

Its a cool video but detailed and specific questions are not really asked properly to give a correct answer.

Just like the spit vs 109 turn rate, the only info we have is what can be read and researched like most information about vintage warbirds and thats all we can really do. Research, share the information and discuss it in a civil manner and that is noway whining wanting a accurate simulation.

Arms1
06-24-2005, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Did you edit this video arms because i have not seen this version of it.

Its a cool video but detailed and specific questions are not really asked properly to give a correct answer.

Just like the spit vs 109 turn rate, the only info we have is what can be read and researched like most information about vintage warbirds and thats all we can really do. Research, share the information and discuss it in a civil manner and that is noway whining wanting a accurate simulation.w

no edit, not my link but is the same link that was posted in here many moons ago http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

actually i thought the questions regarding turn radius,energy bleed, and climb in p51 vs 109g were very direct and answered directly also; the first pilot (and a/c owner) was also very direct in the statement that he could not compare a spit with the 109 because he had no experience in a spit

as previously replied by other member it may not be accurate comparison; 109 does not use any water methanol inj and p51 is unarmed, not a physics major here but i assume that an armed p51 would have an even lower climb rate than an unarmed version and its energy bleed would be more pronounced than an unarmed version

i have read many comparisons regarding these two a/c and tend to lend more credence to the opinions of pilots who have flown both types albeit not in combat.

old interview yes but thier input regarding performance is still relevant.

Badsight.
06-24-2005, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
at the same time the 109 is missing its guns and ammo as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
no , your wrong , the P-51 they are comparing is a stripped civilian version

the 109 is a complete restoration

guns are on the plane as was the MW50 plumbing

the P-51 was like nearly 1000 Kg lighter that the guys in that video were flying & talking about

LeadSpitter_
06-25-2005, 12:17 AM
How are they direct questions without altitude and airspeeds?

Skips ha1112 is also unarmed with no wing cannons, you can see skips plane here at his site.

http://www.skipholm.com/willy-messerschmitt.htm

You can see his aircraft here which they are calling a 109g6 for some reason.

LeadSpitter_
06-25-2005, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fordfan25:
at the same time the 109 is missing its guns and ammo as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
no , your wrong , the P-51 they are comparing is a stripped civilian version

the 109 is a complete restoration

guns are on the plane as was the MW50 plumbing

the P-51 was like nearly 1000 Kg lighter that the guys in that video were flying & talking about </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


And badsight what makes you have that idea?? Or do you just make it up like you think you know what your talking about.


And some more information for you badsight, the post war HA 1112 they are flying compairing was much lighter and had a better turn radius radius and climb rate then the heavier 109g6 and the f4 was heavier loaded as well but closer to the buchons peformance. The ha1112 also had winder and longer wings then the g6 and F series plus being lighter.

HISPANO HA-1112 M1L BUCHON

Empty Weight: 2,445 kg (5,390 lbs)
Gross Weight: 2,859 kg (6,303 lbs)

BF109G6

Weight
Empty: (2,700 kg) 5,900 lb.
Operational: (3,400 kg) 7,500 lb

BF109F2

Weight, Empty: 2,390 kg (5,270 lb)
Weight, Gross: 2,900 kg (6,395 lb)

Badsight.
06-25-2005, 12:39 AM
ok , that plane is not the one they are standing next to in the video

the one in the video is a G model & it had aall its guns & even the MW50 plumbing on it

i see at that website they are calling it a "HA-1112-MIL Buchon"

Abbuzze
06-25-2005, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:



And badsight what makes you have that idea?? Or do you just make it up like you think you know what your talking about.


And some more information for you badsight, the post war HA 1112 they are flying compairing was much lighter and had a better turn radius radius and climb rate then the heavier 109g6 and the f4 was heavier loaded as well but closer to the buchons peformance. The ha1112 also had winder and longer wings then the g6 and F series plus being lighter.

HISPANO HA-1112 M1L BUCHON

Empty Weight: 2,445 kg (5,390 lbs)
Gross Weight: 2,859 kg (6,303 lbs)

BF109G6

Weight
Empty: (2,700 kg) 5,900 lb.
Operational: (3,400 kg) 7,500 lb

BF109F2

Weight, Empty: 2,390 kg (5,270 lb)
Weight, Gross: 2,900 kg (6,395 lb)

Hello Leadspitter,

the problems with the figures is that you find also different ones for this planes.

A HA 1112 is basicly not a G6 but a G2, so I doubt that the spanish engeneers are able to strip a G2 that much that it is lighter than a F2, especially if you remember that the merlin is about as heavy as the DB605

http://www.unrealaircraft.com/hybrid/spitfire.php - merlin to DB conversion


Also for the HA1112 I found max weights up to 3180kg, while empty weight was 2656kg.
Thats similar for a G2.

Buchons have nothing to do with 109Fs neither in weight nor in engine HP, it´s a brother of the G2.


Regards