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View Full Version : an oddity of mine, piloting with huge sensitivity



raaaid
04-07-2010, 01:02 AM
currently im onto virtual racing

ive found a way to be faster and faster and thats using huge sensitivity

people use 30 of lock on front wheel with 300 on the steering wheel average

im using 40 of lock front wheels on 20 of the steering wheel

yes youve heard well instead of using an amortiguated sensitivity i use an apmplified one

this is an artificial way of increasing reaction time and reduce steering wheel inertia which reduces precision

im amazed of what i can do with high sensitivity

danjama
04-07-2010, 05:56 AM
That's considered bad form in the virtual racing world.

Stiletto-
04-07-2010, 05:58 AM
I run iRacing where if you have a 900 degree rotation wheel, it will use a real cars lock to lock, so anything up to 900 degrees or lower, will have a steering ratio true to life.

Of course there is the steering lock adjustment in the garage to change if you want a more sensitive wheel.. I found that in a particular car I drive, the Dallara Indycar, max steering lock in the garage was not enough. I then decided to lie to my software and said I was using 900 degrees when I was using much less than this to further get more steering sensitivity.

Too much though and you can seriously over-correct yourself if you get snap oversteer coming off a corner. Similar to flight sims when you try to line up a bogey in your sites but keep your crosshair swaying back and forth on him.

raaaid
04-07-2010, 05:58 AM
in real life would be dangerous

but its faster

but just for me?

why am i the only in the wolrd who finds high sensitivity a huge advanatge

Erkki_M
04-07-2010, 05:58 AM
Is this in the same class with "trimming helps you fly faster" and "elevator trim in a slider helps you turn quicker and tigher"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

raaaid
04-07-2010, 06:20 AM
in the old times before trim was delayed best you could do was control the elevator trim with the stick

on this way the stick of for example a 109k never becomes heavy

in fact would work as well irl, shame the trim was delayed

long live to the crispy nervous piloting

raaaid
04-07-2010, 06:25 AM
trimming helps you fly faster


hell this is undiscusible

you are going faster with a correctly trimmed staright plane that if you are swinging up and down correcting with the stick all the time

Erkki_M
04-07-2010, 08:30 AM
Yeah, lol, except game isnt real world, you can do the same moving the actual control surfaces, as they and trims are the one and the same thing in game. Not too much difference in real life either, methinks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BillSwagger
04-07-2010, 10:22 AM
At least adjusting your sensitivity doesn't actually make the car turn tighter with out skidding, or does it? I actually have my horizontal throw adjusted so there is less throw needed to go from left to right on the aileron axis but this is mainly so i can hold the vertical axis more steady.

As for trim, that's gonna be a shaky subject, and i know people are entitled to do as they please. I happen to think its a flaw in the game and I think TD has something in the works that might put an end to its excessive uses. I do find peoples justification for using it somewhat amusing. Almost like those people that get arrested because an ATM gave them too much money and then acting like its the banks fault.


Bill

TheGrunch
04-07-2010, 11:19 AM
I really don't understand your obsession with trim on a slider, Bill...real aircraft have trim wheels, and the trims' action is delayed in traversal speed in game (to simulate the pilot turning the wheel) to make the use of trim less immediate in effect than just "turn to trim and it happens". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif The speed at which you can change trim is the same at the moment whether you use the keyboard or slider. Just hold down the key you've set for elevator trim for a second and you get the same effect as moving a slider to an extreme. The only unrealistic thing about it is using it to trim while blacked-out. But you can do that with a key as well. IMO the trimming while blacked out is the issue, not trim on a slider.
And before you ask, no, I don't have trim set on a slider. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BillSwagger
04-07-2010, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by TheGrunch:
I really don't understand your obsession with trim on a slider, Bill...real aircraft have trim wheels, and the trims' action is delayed in traversal speed in game (to simulate the pilot turning the wheel) to make the use of trim less immediate in effect than just "turn to trim and it happens". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif The speed at which you can change trim is the same at the moment whether you use the keyboard or slider. Just hold down the key you've set for elevator trim for a second and you get the same effect as moving a slider to an extreme. The only unrealistic thing about it is using it to trim while blacked-out. But you can do that with a key as well. IMO the trimming while blacked out is the issue, not trim on a slider.
And before you ask, no, I don't have trim set on a slider. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bahh.... You know what i'm getting at. Of course you still need to trim your plane that's why the game has it, but there are flaws in the model that allow for unrealistic behavior, and example would be the AoA and stall behavior. ie, turning your car wheel and being able to out turn other cars with out skidding off the road, to make an analogy.

Imagine this....."trim jammed"..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

TheGrunch
04-07-2010, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
...there are flaws in the model that allow for unrealistic behavior, and example would be the AoA and stall behavior. ie, turning your car wheel and being able to out turn other cars with out skidding off the road, to make an analogy.
I guess I've just never noticed any behaviour like this myself. Have you got any tracks demonstrating it? I don't really know what you mean.

BillSwagger
04-07-2010, 11:20 PM
http://www.twowheelforum.com/photopost/direct_data/539/bunny-pancake.jpg

na85
04-08-2010, 12:56 AM
I'll take that as a no.

Erkki_M
04-08-2010, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by TheGrunch:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
...there are flaws in the model that allow for unrealistic behavior, and example would be the AoA and stall behavior. ie, turning your car wheel and being able to out turn other cars with out skidding off the road, to make an analogy.
I guess I've just never noticed any behaviour like this myself. Have you got any tracks demonstrating it? I don't really know what you mean. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its a common "known cheat", lol.

Yeah, the only differences between trim and moving control surfaces in game is that trims happen to work during blackout too, and have a slight delay. Hell, moving trims IS moving control surfaces, in game! But I dont think its much of a problem that they can be used during blackout - bigger problem is the pilot not being able to move the stick during blackout, which is imho totally unrealistic. He should be able to do that, at first, perhaps with reduced power, but definately shouldnt let go of the stick once he loses 3/4 of blood in his eyes.

raaaid
04-08-2010, 02:15 AM
the most worn out part of a pilots glove is that in contact with the trim

BillSwagger
04-08-2010, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by na85:
I'll take that as a no.


I was gonna post a pic of a face palm, but then i saw one of a guy with his head up his arse, but i thought that might be too extreme, so i settled on a bunny and pancakes.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Bill

Erkki_M
04-08-2010, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
the most worn out part of a pilots glove is that in contact with the trim

Ever play online? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Stiletto-
04-08-2010, 06:21 AM
Raaid as for as the issue with your virtual driving, I am wondering what racing sim you are playing and what kind of cars are being driven. In most of the race sims I play, having a higher sensitivity on the steering axis won't really yield better lap times and is just a personal preference.

TheGrunch
04-08-2010, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
I was gonna post a pic of a face palm, but then i saw one of a guy with his head up his arse, but i thought that might be too extreme, so i settled on a bunny and pancakes.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Bill
Yeah, that's just about the kind of mature and sensible response I expected from you to be honest. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
See, try as you might to explain it to me, there's no way that trim on a slider can do anything more different and exceptional than just holding down the elevator trim up key which achieves the same effect in game.
So it seems you have a problem with the trim model as a whole, not trim on a slider.
What I don't understand is why you think that the issue is unique to assigning it to an analogue axis.
I've got to agree with Erkki, as well. Brian Kingcombe wrote in his biography that the way he flew, even while completely blinded by a turn he was completely aware of himself, he never became completely unconscious at all, he even wrote that it was common practise to ease off a bit just to be able to see well enough to assess whether you were gaining on your enemy in a turning battle.

EDIT: Oh, that sounded a bit sharper than I intended, sorry Bill. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

BillSwagger
04-08-2010, 02:20 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I thought you were screwing with me Grunch, so thats why i responded the way i did.

If you really aren't aware of the issues then its probably best to just let you discover it on your own.

I actually understand the use of trim and how its suppose to be used. Like trimming off forces so you don't need to hold your stick in a location to hold the desired pitch or roll. Trimming off forces in a turn worked the same way.

Some aircraft, such as the 109, didn't have trim tabs and instead the elevators were adjusted (i don't recall the term) but it basically meant if the pilot pushed his stick forward, he would trim the forces off the stick so that where ever his stick was that would be the new center for where ever the speed of the aircraft was. In effect, this would give him more throw to pull from. If he hadn't trimmed prior to engagement, pulling on the stick would result in hitting his knee or basically running out of throw room to maximize a turn. In a dive this could be dangerous if the elevator angle was too shallow and the pilot had run out of throw room. The pilot would be wheeling out trim and fighting the increased stick forces with one hand. Ooffff. Lawn dart.


Or is my thinking wrong, here?



BTW, im willing to concede i'm not the maturest person, i'm 32 and i still play video games.

Whats your excuse? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

Bill

TheGrunch
04-08-2010, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I thought you were screwing with me Grunch, so thats why i responded the way i did.

If you really aren't aware of the issues then its probably best to just let you discover it on your own.

I actually understand the use of trim and how its suppose to be used. Like trimming off forces so you don't need to hold your stick in a location to hold the desired pitch or roll. Trimming off forces in a turn worked the same way.

Some aircraft, such as the 109, didn't have trim tabs and instead the elevators were adjusted (i don't recall the term) but it basically meant if the pilot pushed his stick forward, he would trim the forces off the stick so that where ever his stick was that would be the new center for where ever the speed of the aircraft was. In effect, this would give him more throw to pull from. If he hadn't trimmed prior to engagement, pulling on the stick would result in hitting his knee or basically running out of throw room to maximize a turn. In a dive this could be dangerous if the elevator angle was too shallow and the pilot had run out of throw room. The pilot would be wheeling out trim and fighting the increased stick forces with one hand. Ooffff. Lawn dart.


Or is my thinking wrong, here?



BTW, im willing to concede i'm not the maturest person, i'm 32 and i still play video games.

Whats your excuse? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

Bill
Haha, my excuse is that I'm a 21-year old student. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
The way I understand it, the stick's position is of course tied directly to the control surfaces by cables, and deflecting the trim tab simply creates sufficient drag to hold the control surface in the desired position, effectively creating a new zero-force position. The stick's position doesn't change, nor is there a greater stick throw available to the pilot, because the control surface's deflection has not changed. (This is assuming we're talking about an aircraft WITHOUT a moving tailplane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )
I'm pretty sure that in the more recent versions Il-2 uses a force-based model for stick displacement, i.e. the maximum force that the pilot can apply by any means is 50lbs. I'm sure it doesn't affect in any way the aircraft's critical AoA or anything like that. Pressing the keyboard keys or mapping trim to a slider has exactly the same effect, I'm pretty sure.
It's difficult to tell because unlike rudder trim elevator trim doesn't affect the stick's position in the cockpit. Try this, though. Start a scramble QMB mission with outside views enabled. Map elevator trim to your throttle axis for the test. First, move the trim to its full deflection in both directions and you'll see that the elevator moves in the outside view. Then centre the trim and move the stick to both extremes and watch the elevator - about the same deflection. Then, move the stick to full deflection in either direction and move the trim to its extreme - nothing will happen because you've already reached full control deflection. That's the most conclusive test that it's possible to make, I'm afraid.
I don't know, Bill, I think this is just an online myth that people like to chew over. Or perhaps the people who haven't mapped trim to a slider just haven't worked out that you can hold down the elevator trim keys rather than tapping them repeatedly for a similar effect to jamming a slider to an extreme. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Outlaw---
04-08-2010, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
Some aircraft, such as the 109, didn't have trim tabs and instead the elevators were adjusted (i don't recall the term) but it basically meant if the pilot pushed his stick forward, he would trim the forces off the stick so that where ever his stick was that would be the new center for where ever the speed of the aircraft was. In effect, this would give him more throw to pull from. If he hadn't trimmed prior to engagement, pulling on the stick would result in hitting his knee or basically running out of throw room to maximize a turn. In a dive this could be dangerous if the elevator angle was too shallow and the pilot had run out of throw room. The pilot would be wheeling out trim and fighting the increased stick forces with one hand. Ooffff. Lawn dart.


Or is my thinking wrong, here?


Yes, your thinking is wrong.

The trim on the 109 does NOT adjust the elevators. It adjusts the horizontal stabilizer.

Trim does not affect throw at all in aircraft with mechanical linkages. It only affects the amount of force required to reach a particular stick position.

Since the game models PHYSICAL stick position as VIRTUAL force applied, the effect of trim is modeled correctly. Whether or not the rate of trim application is modeled correctly is up for debate. IIRC the 109 trim wheel is 4 complete turns to go from full up to full down.

--Outlaw.

BillSwagger
04-08-2010, 03:53 PM
Grunch its still looking like bunnies and pancakes from where i'm sitting. If you haven't found how to exploit it, then its probably better that no one show you.


Bill

TheGrunch
04-08-2010, 03:57 PM
Well go on then, what am I not getting? I'm preparing myself earnestly to facepalm my head off, I promise you, I just don't see how you can exploit it any harder with the slider than a keyboard. You can't get greater or quicker control deflection with a slider vs. the keyboard especially now that there's trim delay...and you definitely can't alter the aircraft's critical AoA...so what can you do? Seems like it's just a whine-scapegoat for people who get shot down online to me.

Erkki_M
04-09-2010, 01:06 AM
Grunch, there nothing to see because theres nothing to see. I dont use the "trim on a slider" myself - my CH stick has "cheat trims" in itself that move the stick's center position to a new place(ie. changed joystick's input data). And I've been accused way too many times of cheating, about 50-50% between "aimbot" and "trim on a slider".

Only people whining about it are those who never tried it. Its really just a myth and a bad excuse if you happen to get outflown.

AndyJWest
04-09-2010, 01:33 AM
my CH stick has "cheat trims" in itself that move the stick's center position to a new place
Yup, figured out how to do that some time ago using <censored - not a mod> (no need for an expensive joystick). Never used it online, and after some discussion with someone more experienced with online flying than me, decided that it was taking advantage of a flaw in the sim, if it wasn't outright cheat. If you can beat someone online because you have more expensive hardware, it is the hardware, not you that is the ace.

I'm sure that most of the online aces with superior hardware would beat me on a level playing field too. I just think it's a pity that they have to look for 'an edge' by technology rather than skill.

BillSwagger
04-09-2010, 01:35 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I guess for me i enjoy the flying as much as the fight and to see planes doing things that would otherwise be impossible, cheapens the experience for me. I think its left to the discretion of the players to do what is appropriate, but with people anxious to avoid being killed or stats, they are likely to ignore any aspects that once made this game authentic. Win or lose, its not really an excuse as much as it is a request.

raaaid
04-09-2010, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by Stiletto-:
Raaid as for as the issue with your virtual driving, I am wondering what racing sim you are playing and what kind of cars are being driven. In most of the race sims I play, having a higher sensitivity on the steering axis won't really yield better lap times and is just a personal preference.

i play gtr evolution and like to drive formula 3000 cars

currently in the time attack mode i have the 4th best time of more than one hundred so my idea must work at least for me

and thats what i think maybe extreme sensitivity just works for me

for me it was a matter of increasing sensitivity and notice how i became faster the more i increased it

so if it worked for everybody extreme sensitivities many people would use it

i think extreme sensitivities work fro me cause im odd and wired differently

Erkki_M
04-09-2010, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by AndyJWest:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">my CH stick has "cheat trims" in itself that move the stick's center position to a new place
Yup, figured out how to do that some time ago using <censored - not a mod> (no need for an expensive joystick). Never used it online, and after some discussion with someone more experienced with online flying than me, decided that it was taking advantage of a flaw in the sim, if it wasn't outright cheat. If you can beat someone online because you have more expensive hardware, it is the hardware, not you that is the ace.

I'm sure that most of the online aces with superior hardware would beat me on a level playing field too. I just think it's a pity that they have to look for 'an edge' by technology rather than skill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm....! CH isnt that expensive is it?!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Besides, I think my stubborn insistence in not getting/using a throttle and a head tracking device more than compensate that "cheat", dont you think? Besides most planes have the elevator trim anyways, and since I dont move it in flight(using, if necessary(ie. in bombers) the actual "trims"), I could achieve the same by calibrating the stick wrong.

BillSwagger
04-09-2010, 05:22 AM
And to what extent does having extra hardware mean that a plane should have an unrealistic ability. Afterall, i would purchase a head tracker or more expensive stick if the game play was more authentic, and not cheapened by the people who choose to exploit it.

They should just model bent tail frames and be done with it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif


Bill

Erkki_M
04-09-2010, 05:57 AM
Yeah, what exploits?

Perhaps you can give us, me and Grunch, an accurate description of these "unrealistic abilities", and perhaps some tracks?

I never said extra hardware should mean the planes having extra abilities either. Pilots more so.

Its all a bad excuse.

To me too, this is pathetic for someone having flight simmed this long:
http://www.war-clouds.com/modules/TARGET/sigs/WF-image-25347.png

BillSwagger
04-09-2010, 06:24 AM
Originally posted by Erkki_M:

Its a common "known cheat", lol.




I'm through goofing around with you.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TheGrunch
04-09-2010, 08:07 AM
Well, even if you've seen unrealistic stuff happen (which you can hardly blame people for doing since the G-limits in the game are stupidly high), you can stop worrying about it in a few weeks because they're all going to be bending their planes trying to do stuff like that once DT release the next patch with the G-limits imposed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif